This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Major Oak of Sherwood Forest (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 12 Published March 13, 2023 [music] The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [00:09] In Merry England, long ago, when good King Henry II ruled, a famous outlaw lived in Sherwood Forest, near the town of Nottingham. His name was Robin Hood, and no archer was his equal, nor was there ever such a band as his hundred and forty merry men. They lived carefree lives in the forest; they passed the time competing at archery or battling with the quarterstaff; they lived on the King's deer and washed it down with strong October ale. They were outlaws, of course, but the common people loved them - for no one who came to Robin in need went away empty-handed. Doug Still: [00:57] Welcome, listeners, Doug here. Flash forward to today and Sherwood Forest still exists in the County of Nottinghamshire. Within it, there is the most charming old oak tree you've ever laid your eyes on. It may well have harbored Robin Hood and his merry men, or perhaps people like them. It's called The Major Oak, and honestly, it ranks as one of the most famous trees in the world. In 2014, The Woodland Trust held its first Tree of the Year contest in England by public vote, and The Major Oak won, beating out tough competitions such as Old Knobbley, the Ickwell Oak, the Ankerwycke Yew near where the Magna Carta was signed, and Newton's apple tree. People from all over the world visit The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest, drawn by the legend. I have two guests from Sherwood Forest National Nature Reserve to help describe why the tree is so special. One is Paul Cook, the warden tasked with maintaining the woodland and the landscape. The other is the Sheriff of Nottingham, or that is Richard Townsley, a tour guide and local authority on Robin Hood. There's an aura around this tree, thanks to the legend. But what I found out is that the tree's allure and lasting popularity has really become about so much more. I can barely contain my excitement. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:42] I follow a number of tree-related forums online, on Facebook and Instagram, and other places. And there are certain trees that people post about over and over again. The Major Oak is one of them because it oozes character. Paul Cook: [02:57] It's an amazing tree. The Major Oak is a famous oak tree. Doug Still: [03:04] That's Paul Cook, who for 20 years has been the warden at Sherwood Forest, caring for the reserves, woodland, wood pasture, and lowland heath. He manages a small team of two assistant wardens, a state worker, contractors, and dozens of volunteers who they couldn't do without. He also has the enviable, if not pressure-filled responsibility of caring for The Major Oak, England's millennium-old icon. Paul Cook: [03:31] So, it's a Quercus robur, which is a pedunculate oak, which is also known as the English oak. The tree itself, we estimate, weighs about 23 tons. It's got a trunk circumference of about 33ft. So, that's quite a broad tree. But it is for the UK, anyway. I know you've got quite big trees in the States. Doug Still: [03:56] That's pretty broad. Paul Cook: [03:58] It's certainly not the biggest tree or the oldest tree here in the UK, but it's certainly one of the most famous trees. And basically because of the link to Robin Hood. Doug Still: [04:09] The tree has a commanding presence with wide-spreading branches. There is a series of support poles beneath them, creating the appearance of an elderly grandparent leaning on multiple canes, but head held high. Its main branches, some as big as old trees themselves, form a U shape, as they lift upward. Upper branches form twisting, turning, silhouettes against the sky. The gnarly, weathered trunk undulates with bulges and hollows that vibrate with life. But what I quickly learned from Paul is that The Major Oak is viewed as the most well-known member of a larger, vital ecosystem, defined by hundreds of veteran trees, as they are known in the UK. Paul Cook: [04:51] As you walk towards The Major Oak from the visitor center, it's about 20 minutes' walk from the visitor center, in the center of the forest. It really hits you, because it's a big tree. It used to be in the middle of nowhere, so we think it was like a parkland tree. It was in the middle of a big expansive grassland or woodland pasture. Doug Still: [05:16] I love that it's not just next to the visitor center or something. You have to take a little walk to get to it. Paul Cook: [05:22] Yeah, exactly. We are a triple site, so we are a site for special scientific interests. We're also a SAC, a special area of conservation, which is a European designation. And we are a nature reserve. We are a national nature reserve, and we're one of a handful of ancient woodlands. But when we became a SAC in 2002, one of the requirements for that was that there should be no visitor's facility within the SAC. So, we had to remove all the buildings, the cafe, the shops, the toilets, the education center, all that had to be moved outside of the SAC. Doug Still: [06:08] That's great. Paul Cook: [06:11] Because of these ancient oaks, you would never put a house or a building so close to a tree like that. Doug Still: [06:18] No. Sherwood Forest Reserve is part of the larger RSPB or the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. It is the largest nature conservation charity in the country, dating back to 1889, and it manages over 200 nature reserves across the UK. So, this tree has a massive trunk, and is there a hollow? Paul Cook: [06:40] Yeah, the ancient oak trees are classed as anything that's over 300 years old. So, when it becomes about 300 years old, there is a saying that it spends its first 100 years growing. So, literally from an acorn, a tiny acorn. These trees just shoot straight up into the sky and get as high as they can get. And then, the second 100 years, they start to grow outwards, they start to lose the tops of the trees and they start to put on girth and really grow outwards. Any competition, any weaker trees will then die back because we always like to be very British, very English. We don't like being touched, we don't like being too close to people. We like our space. Doug Still: [07:29] And it's the English oak. Paul Cook: [07:31] Yeah. That's the same with the English oak. It doesn't like being too close to other trees. It certainly doesn't like being touched by other trees. We tend to get a lot of die back away from each other or they grow away from each other. So, the trees are over 300 years old. They start to retrench, and they start to put on girth. The third 100 years is they kind of live their life and they put out maximum girth. They start to hollow out inside. So, the trees become-- they lose the heartwood and put all the energy into growing outwards. They lose the tops. In fact, we call them stag-headed oaks as well, because the top starts to retrench, it starts to die back, and they look like stag antlers. Doug Still: [08:23] So, retrenchment means the ends of the branches die, and its resources are put more towards the trunk and the roots and a different sort of survival mode. Paul Cook: [08:36] Yeah, exactly. It starts to come back in towards the trunk. We've got some big wide trees that are short in height and that's our veteran trees. They've got loads of different characters as well. It's not just about the age. They've got obviously the hollowing of the tree, they've got deadwood inside the canopy of the tree as well, which we encourage. Doug Still: [09:02] I was going to ask if you're okay with the deadwood. Paul Cook: [09:05] Yes, definitely. We've got over a thousand of these veteran oak trees in the area that we manage. Out of those, about 650 are alive, living. The minimum is 300 years old, and they are still growing, still alive, but they're producing signs of decay. So, with the heartwood hollowing out, with the branches starting to hollowing, and decay coming out. There's a lot of loose bark, you get flaky bark on there, so you can get bats that love to burrow just underneath the bark. We've got a lot of rare beetles and invertebrates that live within the dead, decaying wood. Doug Still: [10:01] There's quite an ecosystem within a single tree, isn't there? Paul Cook: [10:05] Absolutely. We've got one of the largest cohorts of ancient oaks in the world and some are like-- I say some are living and some are dead. Each one can have over 600 different species of invertebrates. We call them saproxylic invertebrates because these are invertebrates that are dependent on dead or decaying wood. And we've got a spider called the-- it's a small, a tiny, tiny spider that's called Midia midas. And it's one of Britain's rarest spiders. That is associated just with ancient oak trees. You won't find it in any other habitat, but just ancient oak trees. Doug Still: [10:47] Really interesting. Paul Cook: [10:48] Yeah. So, it is nationally endangered. Doug Still: [10:51] What's the ecosystem like in the forest as a whole? Paul Cook: [10:54] Ecosystem is fantastic. Like I said, we've got over a thousand veteran trees. We've also tagged 600, what we call the next generations. These are the trees that are going to replace the veterans once they've gone and fallen over. 600 of the veterans are alive. We've got about 400 of the veterans that are completely dead. So, the dead-standing oaks. Doug Still: [11:20] Does it feel like you're in a deep forest or is it open? Paul Cook: [11:24] It is quite an open forest. In between the ancient oaks, we've got smaller oaks, so less of an age. We've also got things like silver birch trees, willow, hazel, hawthorne, sycamore, rowan, so we've got a mixture of trees. One thing about Sherwood Forest is we don't have any water features. So, we've got no rivers or lakes within the forest itself. The soil is very dry, sandy soil as well, so it's very free draining. Doug Still: [11:58] That's good for oaks. Paul Cook: [12:00] Yes, perfect for the oaks. Doug Still: [12:02] How old is The Major Oak? Paul Cook: [12:04] For years, we've been talking about there's always a figure banded around, about 800 years old. But actually, we had some work done with the Woodland Trust. The Woodland Trust is a UK-wide organization that specifically looks at woodlands. They have been doing some work with Windsor Great Park, down by London, Windsor Castle. The good thing about Windsor is that every time a royal person was born, they planted a tree. So, when a king or queen was born, they planted a tree. When a king or queen died, they planted a tree. At certain events, they planted a tree. So, they've got records of when these trees were planted. So, they can go back and look at this tree and they could do a methodology, they can measure it DBH, they could do diameter at breast height. Measure the tree, take some characteristics from that and they can work out how old these trees are. Doug Still: [13:03] And that's a perfect reference. Paul Cook: [13:06] They've applied the same principles, the same methodology to Sherwood here. We reckon that The Major Oak is about 1200 years old. Obviously, that's a guesstimate. Doug Still: [13:18] That is older than I thought. Paul Cook: [13:19] Yeah. Doug Still: [13:20] I had seen 800 plus, which I guess it fits into that category. Paul Cook: [13:26] Yeah. I always go on the theory that I'm working with 1200 years old. Doug Still: [13:32] Wow. Paul Cook: [13:34] The Major Oak is also mentioned in quite a few textbooks as well. So, we do have a lot of records for The Major Oak. Doug Still: [13:41] So, pre-Norman invasion? Paul Cook: [13:44] Yes. Doug Still: [13:45] It was standing at the time of the Robin Hood legend, which was about 12th century. What did Sherwood Forest look like at that time, during Medieval England? Paul Cook: [13:58] Sherwood Forest used to cover over 100,000 acres. It was quite a big forest in the UK, and it would cover about one-fifth of the county of Nottinghamshire. It went from the city of Nottingham in the south of the county, right up the full length-- our county, the county of Nottinghamshire is quite long and thin. So, it covered the full length of Nottinghamshire, and it went up into the neighboring counties of South Yorkshire as well. It was a mixture of dense oak trees and birch, open woodland birch trees. In fact, one of the other names for this area is the Birklands. A Birkland is a Viking word that meaning 'birch land'. Doug Still: [14:52] What type of birch? Could you give the Latin name? Paul Cook: [14:56] It's silver birch. Betula pendula. Doug Still: [15:00] Pendula? Paul Cook: [15:01] Pendula. Yeah. In fact, Sherwood itself means "The wood of the shire." Doug Still: [15:06] So, it's quite an impressive forest. If you could get lost in it? Paul Cook: [15:11] Certainly, yeah. I mean, if you look at a lot of the tales of Robin Hood, it was full of people that didn't want to be found by the establishment, so they would go into the forest and hide. [music] Doug Still: [15:25] After a short break, the Sheriff of Nottingham tells us his version of the Robin Hood tales. You're listening to This Old Tree. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [15:42] Old Nottinghamshire was in a great stir, for King Richard the Lionhearted was to visit Nottingham Town in the course of a royal journey through Merry England. People were at work everywhere, preparing a grand banquet at the Guildhall. His Majesty was to sit side by side with the Sheriff at a feast. Evening had come, the great feast at the Guildhall was done. The lords, nobles, knights, and squires all sat enjoying wine. The King said to the Sheriff, "I have heard much about the deeds of certain outlaws around here. Their leader is called Robin Hood and they are said to live in Sherwood Forest. Can you tell me more about them, Sir Sheriff?" The Sheriff looked down gloomily. "I can tell your Majesty little about the deeds of these naughty fellows, but they are surely the boldest lawbreakers in all England." Then, young Sir Henry of the Lee spoke, "May it please your Majesty, when I was away in the Holy Land, I often heard from my father. He told me many stories of this Robin Hood. If Your Majesty wishes, I will share one with you." The young knight told how Robin Hood had helped Sir Richard of the Lee with money borrowed from the Bishop of Hereford. Again and again, the King and others roared with laughter. When Sir Henry was done. Others present followed his lead by telling other tales concerning Robin and his Merry Men. "This is as bold a rascal as I have ever heard of," King Richard said. "I must do what you cannot, Sheriff. Clear the forest of him and his band." That night, the King was relaxing in the finest lodgings in Nottingham. His Majesty was still thinking about Robin Hood. "I would freely give a hundred pounds to meet this Robin Hood and to see how he lives in Sherwood Forest." Sir Hubert of Gingham spoke up with a laugh. "If Your Majesty were willing to lose £100, I could arrange for you not only to meet this fellow but to feast with him in Sherwood tomorrow." "I would be willing, Sir Hubert," the King replied. "But how will you do this?" "Very simply," Sir Hubert said." "Your Majesty and six of us here will dress in black friar's robes, and your Majesties shall conceal a purse of £100 beneath your gown. We will then attempt to ride from here to Mansfield Town tomorrow, unless I am mistaken, we will meet and dine with Robin Hood before the day is out." "I like your plan, Sir Hubert," the King said merrily. "Tomorrow, we will try it." Doug Still: [18:20] To get the best take on the history of Robin Hood, I was directed to Richard Townsley. Most visitors to Sherwood Forest would see the Sheriff of Nottingham standing before them. So, welcome to the show. Richard Townsley: [18:33] Welcome. Thank you. Doug Still: [18:34] How should I refer to you? Richard Townsley: [18:36] Well, I am the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire. So, my Lord Sheriff or simply the Sheriff is fine. Doug Still: [18:43] The Sheriff? Can I call you, my lord? Richard Townsley: [18:45] My Lord or just Lord. Yes. Doug Still: [18:47] My Lord? Okay. [laughs] That's good to know. The Lord Sheriff is one of a cast of characters you can meet if you visit the forest. But regarding the legend and its evolution over time, he is the chief authoritarian, I mean, authority. Since the dramatic events 800 years ago with Robin Hood and you, you've had to endure a lot of versions of the tale of the Robin Hood legend. Depending on who's telling, it's often very different. But what would you say is the basic outline of the story that we know today, from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [19:23] Well, I think that the original basis is that he is an outlaw, which in English law at the time meant something very specific. It didn't mean he was a convicted criminal. It meant that he had failed to attend court. He was summoned to court, he was asked to come three times, he would have been, and then--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [19:42] He did not show? Richard Townsley: [19:43] So, he didn't show. So, he's on the run. That placed him outside the law, which in a strict legal sense meant that anyone could kill him because he was now not protected by the law because he defied it. So, he's an outlaw. It never, ever tells us why. In various poems and tales, right back to the earliest, he's always wanted, but they never actually say why. The reason I like the idea of being My Lord Sheriff, or just the Sheriff, is that the Sheriff is there right at the beginning. He is always the adversary of Robin Hood. And again, we're never really told why. And the Sheriff is never named. We know the name of pretty well every Sheriff right back almost 1000 years. There's a Sheriff still today. There's a High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire today. Doug Still: [20:30] Who's the Sheriff today? Richard Townsley: [20:32] It's Michael Paul Southby. It's slightly confusing because in fact we have three Sheriffs. There's me, who I consider myself to be the historic Sheriff. There is a Sheriff of Nottingham appointed by the City of Nottingham, which is in effect, she's the Deputy Mayor, the Lord Mayor of Nottingham, and it is a city council appointment, and that goes back to about the 1500s. We have the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, which is an appointment of the Crown. This current Sheriff was appointed by the late Queen and his appointment has been extended by the current King. Doug Still: [21:05] I see. Well, you have a lot of authority with me, so we're safe here. Richard Townsley: [21:10] So, he's an outlaw, he's living in the forest and that's quite important. That it's Sherwood. Sherwood was a royal forest, so it had special protection, it was used for the King's personal hunting grounds. There was a lot of resentment around the use of royal forests and the imposition that made on local people. They couldn't hunt in areas where they had traditionally hunted maybe hundreds of years before. There was a lot of extra laws and rules designed to protect those forests and protect the royal hunting grounds, which fell heavily on ordinary people. So, there were some advantages of living in and around royal forests, but generally, it was an imposition, and local people didn't like that. Doug Still: [21:51] Which King declared it a royal forest? Richard Townsley: [21:53] Well, Sherwood is actually Shirewood. England is divided up into shires, the old Saxon word is "skūr" and that's where we get Sheriff from. It's "skūr refer". The "refer" was the "reeve", so the shire-reeve became the Sheriff. So, Sherwood was the Shirewood, so it's always been the wood of the shire. By the looks of it, there was a royal hunting ground here before the coming of the Normans. Certainly, William I, William the Conqueror, was a big huntsman and he really did exploit the royal hunting grounds and I think he drew very tight lines around them, imposed very strict laws, and kept them very much as royal preserves. That was, I think, resented, A, because it was an imposition on local people, and B, he was the invader. He was the foreigner come and took over England. So, William I is really the man that imposes the strict version of royal forest that we know in the Middle Ages. Doug Still: [22:56] So, there were foresters back then, right? Richard Townsley: [22:59] Yes. Doug Still: [23:00] What was the role of a forester? Richard Townsley: [23:03] Right at the top of the chain, the King appointed a keeper of the royal forests. So, he was at the very top of it. They then divided England into two along the line of the River Trent, which runs through Nottinghamshire. So, everything North of the Trent had a keeper north and we had a keeper south. The southern half of England had a sub-keeper, and then each forest had a keeper too. So, there's a chain of command going all the way up to the king. And then, the king appointed a keeper. So, it was a keeper of Sherwood Forest and then he appointed foresters. And then, the foresters also had verderers, and various other officials streaming out. It was quite a bureaucracy. There was a whole clutch of people supposed to overlook it, but mainly the job of the forester was to be out in the forest and they were managing the forest. Doug Still: [23:55] I see, and how did your jurisdictions overlap, you and the foresters? Richard Townsley: [24:00] Well, for a lot of the time, the Sheriff had full legal responsibility for the shire, for the conduct of the shire, which involved the courts and collecting taxes. That's one of the reasons Sheriffs were not very popular. They had to collect all revenue due to the Crown came through the hands of the Sheriff for every shire. That obviously makes them-- nobody likes paying taxes, certainly not in Medieval, and they didn't. Generally, their Sheriff didn't always have responsibility for the forest. They did try to keep the jurisdictions separate. If you were caught with a deer-- and we referred to that being red-handed, if you were caught red-handed, you'd literally killed it inside the royal forest, you would be the responsibility of the keeper and the foresters and would go before a forest court. If you then took the deer home, which meant crossing the line into normal Nottinghamshire, you then became the responsibility of the Sheriff. So, you'd then come before the county court. Doug Still: [25:01] I see. Very complicated. And Robin Hood, I'm sure, did not want to come in front of anybody. Richard Townsley: [25:07] I think that's the basis of being outlawed. If you were caught, you're either caught red-handed and you knew you were going to be found guilty, so there's simply no point waiting around for the verdict. Let's you and I--we're bang to rights here. Or, which is equally likely in Medieval England, that you just knew that the people you were lined up against, you weren't going to have a fair trial because, in all the early stories, Robin is described as a yeoman, which puts him above serf. It makes him a free man, but it doesn't make him high up the social scale. So, abbots, lords, bishops, knights, all these people would kind of outrank him in the social structure. So, if there was some dispute, it's more likely the Sheriff is going to take the word of these people who are going to be closer to him in his social status, than someone like Robin. That's possibly why he went on the run. Doug Still: [25:58] So, Robin was a yeoman? Richard Townsley: [26:00] Yes. That's an interesting twist in the tale because in all the early references, they're absolutely clear about that. He's described again and again as a yeoman, and that's good, honest English stock. He's solid, a working man. He's going to have a job, a trade. He's not an aristocrat. He isn't a landowner. He might have owned a small farm of his own, but he is not a peasant, and he's definitely not a lord. In the later tales, he becomes that. That's where we get Earl of Huntingdon. One of my favorite films is the 1938 Errol Flynn The Adventures of Robin Hood, and by then he's become a dispossessed Earl and has moved up the social [unintelligible 00:26:41]. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [26:45] Seven black friar's robes were brought for the king and his companions. The Hoods hid their faces well. His Majesty hung a purse of 100 golden pounds under his robe. They traveled on, laughing and joking, past recently harvested fields and scattered clumps of forest. Soon, the trees grew denser, and a few miles later, the party was well within the forest. "We forgot to bring anything to drink. Right now, I would give £50 for something to quench my thirst." No sooner had the king spoken than from the underbrush stepped a tall fellow with merry blue eyes. "Truly, holy brother," he said, taking hold of the king's reins. "We keep an inn nearby, and for £50, we will not only give you a generous drink of wine but also as noble a feast as you have ever had." The man gave a shrill whistle, and the bushes on either side of the road crackled to yield up 60 strong yeomen in Lincoln green. "What sort of naughty rogue are you?", the King said. "Have you no respect for holy men?" "Not in this case. My name is Robin Hood. You may have heard it before." "How dare you?", King Richard said." "Please let me and my brothers travel forward in peace." "I cannot," Robin replied." "It would be very bad manners to let such holy men travel onward with empty stomachs." "But since you offer so much for a little drink of wine, I'm sure you can afford a stay at our inn. Show your purse to me, reverend brother, rather than have me strip off those robes and find it myself." "Do not use force," the King said sternly. "Here is our purse, but do not lay hands upon our person." King Richard drew out and offered his purse. Will Scarlett took the purse and counted out the money. Then, Robin, had him keep £50 for themselves and put £50 back. This he handed to the king. "Here, brother. Now, how about putting back your hood so I can see your face?" "I cannot," the King said, drawing back. "We seven have vowed not to show our faces for 24 hours." "Then keep them covered," Robin said, "for I would never ask you to break your vows." Robin then called seven of his yeomen to lead the mules, and the mock friars were taken into the depths of the forest. They soon came to the clearing in front of the great oak tree. Doug Still: [29:19] So, they were bandits essentially though, right? Or would you call them that? Richard Townsley: [29:24] Yes. Again, an interesting point there, isn't it? It made me think a little bit of the American relationship with Bonnie and Clyde. I mean, they were murderers, weren't they? They were bank robbers, but they're still kind of seen as some heroism there. They're still a sort of-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [29:39] Right, romanticized. Richard Townsley: [29:41] Yes, and maybe more like Jesse James. He becomes a bandit and a robber, but he's originally supposed to have been cheated out of some land by the faceless railway company or whatever. There's this definite element in Robin Hood that he is doing good by being a robber. Various poets and various ballads refer to him as doing poor men good or poor men no harm. There's some element of only picking on targets that were not popular, particularly the high church officers. Abbots come in and bishops come in, a lot of [unintelligible 00:30:21] from Robin Hood. Doug Still: [30:22] Was there ever a story told from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [30:25] [laughs] No. Doug Still: [30:27] Sort of like Wicked, you know? Richard Townsley: [30:29] The Sheriff gets very bad press. It falls into two categories. The Sheriff is either a blundering fool, and he's easily tricked. A lot of the early Robin Hood stories have disguise as an element. There's one where Robin Hood waylays a potter who's on his way to a market in Nottingham. He's coming through Sherwood Forest. Robin Hood sort of hijacks the potter. The potter fights him, and the potter wins or does well in the fight. So, Robin Hood doesn't rob him. Doug Still: [3 1:00] He has respect. Richard Townsley: [31:02] Yes. He earns respect because he's resisting. He's also a tradesman. He stands up for himself. He would be equal status as a yeoman. But Robin takes his stock, goes into the city, sells the pots, sells some nice pots to the Sheriff's wife. In fact, in that story, the Sheriff's wife is one of the first women characters in the whole stories, is the Mrs. Sheriff. She so likes this roguish pottery seller that she invites him to dinner, which would be highly unlikely. They're wining and dining with the Sheriff. The potter says he knows where to find Robin Hood. The Sheriff says, "Okay, tomorrow, take me into the forest." Takes him into the forest, lures him into a trap, strips him of all his worldly goods and his clothes, sticks him on his horse and sends him back, and says, "The only reason I'm not slitting your throat is because I like your wife." [Douglas laughs] He's a sort of blundering fool-- I mean, the idea of a Medieval Sheriff being so duped with his nonsense. Doug Still: [32:05] I don't buy it for a minute. Richard Townsley: [32:06] I don't buy it either. [laughs] It has to be the fall guy. Doug Still: [32:12] Well, I think that's a story or a version of the story waiting to be told, then. Richard Townsley: [32:16] Definitely, yes. Doug Still: [32:18] Did Robin Hood hide out in that tree? Richard Townsley: [32:20] Absolutely, he definitely did. My grandmother told me so. Doug Still: [32:23] Okay. [laughs] So that's the end of that. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [32:27] I've no historical evidence to back that up, but she told me it. So, that's it. Doug Still: [32:33] Could you talk about where the name, The Major Oak, came from? Paul Cook: [32:37] Sure. It's been a tourist attraction for hundreds of years and it was originally called the Queen's Oak. On some maps, you might see it and it says the Queen's Oak. We think this was because it was literally one of the biggest trees in the forest, and it wasn't taken for timber, it was allowed to grow, and it was called the Queens Oak. Some of the other names for it as well is called the Cockpen Tree. The Cockpen Tree, because they used to do a lot of animal fighting, such as dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting, and also cock fighting. Doug Still: [33:20] Sherwood Forest has come a long way in that regard, hasn't it? [laughter] Richard Townsley: [33:23] Yes. It certainly has. Paul Cook: [33:25] But in 1790, a chap came along. He was a retired army soldier. He was a major, Major Hayman Rooke. He lived in Mansfield Woodhouse, which is just outside the forest-- Well, it would have been inside the forest, but now it's one of the towns outside the forest. For his retirement, he just used to go out and do the early form of documenting these trees. So, like we've got the Ancient Tree forum now and the inventory, he would go around Nottinghamshire recording all these trees. And in 1790, he wrote a book called Remarkable Oaks in Nottinghamshire. Again, on the front cover of the book was The Major Oak. In those days, it was just the Mighty Oak or the Queen's Oak, or the Cockpen Tree. Doug Still: [34:20] Are there many copies of that book in existence? Paul Cook: [34:24] I know you can see it online. Somebody's put it online. I have never seen a copy in the flesh, in the paper. I've never seen a copy of it, but I've read digital versions of it. There's all these different big oak trees that are actually recorded in this book. From then onwards, from 1790 onwards, it started to be called The Major Oak Tree, or the Major's Oak Tree. Doug Still: [34:55] All right, we dropped the "S." Paul Cook: [34:56] Yeah. It's now just become known as The Major Oak. It's named after Major Hayman Rooke, who was a retired army major. He was writing and documenting trees around this county. Doug Still: [35:10] Well, it sounds like he deserved it. Paul Cook: [35:12] Definitely. Doug Still: [35:13] It sounds like a great book. And he one-upped Robin Hood. Paul Cook: [35:17] By the way, he was born in 1723, so it's actually his 300th birthday. Doug Still: [35:24] Well, happy birthday, Major Rooke. After the break, we'll meet some of the other veteran oak trees in the forest and then learn about the extensive care The Major Oak has received in the past 50 years. This is This Old Tree. Nigel Holmes: [35:43] "By my soul," Merry King Richard said, when he had dismounted, "You have a fine band here, Robin. King Richard himself would be glad of such a bodyguard." Doug Still: [35:54] An archery competition was created. Members of the Merry Band had to shoot three arrows into a wreath at 120 paces. If they missed, they would get thrown by the wrestler, David of Doncaster. Some succeeded, but Wat the Tinker missed, and he was hurled into the mud with a splat. Everyone laughed. When it was Robin Hood's turn, a crooked feather made him miss too. Nigel Holmes: [36:19] And Robin flung his bow to the ground in irritation. "Curse it. Give me a clean arrow, and I will split the stake with it." The yeomen laughed louder than ever. "No, good master," Will Scarlett said. "The arrow was as good as any other shot today. David is waiting for you, for he wishes to pay you what he owes." "I am king in Sherwood, and no subject may lay hands on the king, but I will yield to the holy friar." He turned to the King. "Please, brother, will you give me my penance?" "With all my heart," Merry King Richard replied, rising from his seat, "You kindly relieved me of the heavy weight of £50, and I would like to thank you properly." "If you can truly throw me," Robin said, "I will give you back your money. But if you fail, brother, I will take the rest." "So be it," the King said. Doug Still: [37:18] Okay. Back to Paul Cook. What are the names of some of the other English oak trees in Sherwood Forest? Paul Cook: [37:25] We've got quite a few trees around the forest that we give names, and I suspect it was the same in the old days as well, you would name these trees because some of the trees would actually be part of your navigation and there'd be compass trees. The trees had branches at the north, south, east, and west point, and if there were any of the branches on there, you just take them off. So, they were called compass trees to help you navigate around the forest. Doug Still: [37:49] First I've heard of that. Paul Cook: [37:50] But we've also got things like Twister. Twister is one where the tree is literally just grown in a spiral. It's amazing. You look at it and you think, "How the hell is that tree still standing?" It's just grown in a spiral. We call that Twister. Doug Still: [38:08] I would love to see a picture of Twister. Paul Cook: [38:10] I've got a picture. Yeah, I'll send you a picture of a Twister. Doug Still: [38:12] Oh, great. Paul Cook: [38:14] We have the Bee Tree. This has got a colony of bees inside that, and I know it's been recorded there for about the last 45 years. Doug Still: [38:24] Incredible. Paul Cook: [38:25] Yeah. With the hollowing of the oak trees, it's like a cave. So, in the summer, it's quite cool. It's a nice, steady temperature. In the winter, it's again a nice slightly warmer than the outside temperature. The queen bee has been living in there and hibernating in there and obviously successions. This is a recorded bee's nest in there for the last 45 years. We have one called Man-eating Caterpillar because it's--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [38:57] [laughs] A Man-eating Caterpillar? Paul Cook: [38:59] Yeah, the Man-eating Caterpillar. It's got like legs, like the Eiffel Tower in Paris, if you can imagine the Eiffel Tower or Blackpool Tower. It stands high amongst the rest, and it's got hollowing underneath, and it's got legs. So, you can actually crawl inside it and then you can look up inside the tree, and it's said that once you go in there, you'll never come out. And then, we've got one called Rotten Roger, and it's named after a villain who was trapped inside the oak tree by Robin Hood. These are one of the tales that comes out. A lot of these tales, because you've also got to remember, in those days, not many people could read or write, so everything was by word of mouth. And most of it is true. There's a lot of true facts in there. And then, people say, "Oh, that doesn't sound very good, let's make it a bit more sexier," and start adding things in." And then, you end up with a fantastic story. Doug Still: [40:02] Yeah. And the good ones have staying power over time. Paul Cook: [40:06] Exactly. Yeah. We've got one called the Parliament Oak as well, and that's just within Sherwood Forest, but it's not on our bit of the land. The Parliament Oak is the only place in the UK where the Parliament has sat outside of London. With the King and all the MPs and members of Parliament, the King was on holiday in Sherwood Forest and there was something going on, and they had to have an emergency session outside of Parliament. And so they met underneath this oak tree called the Parliament Oak. Doug Still: [40:43] Symbolically, what do you think forest means in the Robin Hood tale? Do you think it's changed over time? Richard Townsley: [40:49] Yes, I think it has this historic meaning of a place where people were forbidden to carry out their normal lives. It would be normal to think, "Well, I can nip down--" peasants and what have you, Medieval England, starvation was never far away. The idea that you could just go into the wood and bring out something to eat, to feed your family, whether it was a hare or a squirrel or a rabbit or whatever. What would be considered just a basic human right, and the fact that the forestry laws prevented that would be a source of a lot of resentment. Doug Still: [41:22] So, it wasn't a scary place, exactly? Richard Townsley: [41:24] No, I definitely wouldn't think so. Not for local people. One of the misunderstandings I think a lot of people, particularly in America, have is that England is a small country, so even though there were big areas of forest, they were never densely forest. Sherwood Forest was as much heath as it was woodland, so there were lots of open space. There were certainly trades going on in the forest. Charcoal burning would have been common. Doug Still: [41:55] There were people there. There were hamlets. Richard Townsley: [41:57] Yeah. Sherwood Forest included villages. It included at least three big abbeys in the midst of the forest. There were roads through them. There were places you could stay out of the way of the authorities, but probably only with the support of local people. Doug Still: [42:15] So, it was life-giving. Was looked on as life-giving. Richard Townsley: [42:19] Absolutely, yeah. Doug Still: [42:21] Could you describe the support system around The Major Oak? There's a network of posts and poles and probably cables as well, right? Paul Cook: [42:31] Yes. When you walk towards The Major Oak, I think one of the first things you might see are the props. There's a lot of props holding up the branches. Now, in the old days, there used to be wooden, like, telegraph pole props. These were big pine struts and there was quite a few of them. There was about 15 or 16 of these props. They were put in about the early or mid-1900s. And in about 1902 to 1908. It was still of significant size, and they looked at the branches and it was starting to show signs of decay and collapse--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [43:18] So, they were stressed. Paul Cook: [43:18] It's falling off-- stress, yeah. So, what they did in 1902 is they started putting some chains and pulleys up in the top of The Major Oak. They took the top center bit, they put a metal banded ring around it, and then just like a wagon wheel, they took off spokes all the way around the tree and then used those to prop up some of these big, heavy branches. So, there are chains and pulley systems in the top of the oak to help take the stress and the weight of these big, heavy branches. Doug Still: [43:57] It looks like an elderly person too when you see this. You really get the sense that this tree is cared for, it's protected, it's old. Could you describe the root mapping project that was done in the last couple of years? What was that? What were you trying to accomplish and how did you do it? Paul Cook: [44:17] Yeah, we were looking at The Major Oak and it wasn't looking very good. For the last couple of years, it was always the last tree to come out in leaf. The leaves were looking very small, they were looking very yellow. It just wasn't looking good at all. It looked like it was about to die. It was getting stressed. So, we were looking at all the aspects of the tree, so we took a load of foliage samples, and we sent them off for analysis and we looked at the ground around the tree as well. Bearing in mind we get over 350,000 visitors a year, all coming to see The Major Oak, all wanting to come and climb all over it, they want to touch it, they want to walk around it, they want to have their photograph. Doug Still: [45:10] They're compacting the soil all around the tree. Paul Cook: [45:13] Exactly. Moving forward to the last couple of years, it was starting to show more signs of being stressed. Like I said, the leaves were very small. It was coming out late. The whole canopy leaves were looking sparse and very yellow. We knew what was happening above ground. We could see what was happening above ground. We wanted to see what was happening below ground. As part of the Ancient Tree Forum, we came across a lady called Sharon Hosegood, and Sharon Hosegood Associates. And she does root radar. She did a demonstration to us at Burghley House. We approached her and said, "Look, this is what's happening with The Major Oak. We would love for you to come and do some root radar of The Major Oak." I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like a pushchair, and it's got sensors, and it literally scans about 2 meters below the surface of the ground, and it can pick up roots, and you can tell that-- it picks up roots anything above 20 mm, they're roots above the size of 20 mm, it will pick those up. Doug Still: [46:34] And it's creating a digital map? Paul Cook: [46:36] And it creates a digital map of all the way around The Major Oak. You scan around as much as you can to pick up these roots. Now, with The Major Oak, we've got quite a few trees at the back of it, but it's completely open at the front. There's a nice green where people have picnics at the front. We always assumed that the roots went out as far as the branches. Wherever the drip line of the canopy of the tree was, we always assumed that's where the roots would go as well. So, we started scanning that and then went further and then we went further and further out. In fact, we went out to 40 meters from the trunk. We're back to the trunk. We walked out 40 meters and were still finding the roots of the tree. Doug Still: [47:22] Yeah. Paul Cook: [47:23] Of the oak tree. Doug Still: [47:24] But stunning the long reach that those roots have. Paul Cook: [47:27] And they were the ones that we could see. They were the ones that were 20 mm and bigger. Smaller roots were obviously going beyond that, and the fibrous roots were also going beyond that as well. So, this gave us a better understanding of what was happening below the ground. Doug Still: [47:47] What do you think is the most interesting question you've been asked at The Major Oak or in the forest? Richard Townsley: [47:55] I think that the nicest ones are all about the trees and how they're related to each other. And there's some interesting theories there, and I think a lot of people like to get into that, actually, because The Major Oak has been there so long, it's the grandmother to almost every oak tree that we can see, isn't it? Everybody locally, the first thing they say to you is, "I've been in there." They tell you as though it's only them that's ever been in. And you know they'll sigh and [unintelligible 00:48:22] "You know I've been in there, don't you?" And I'll go, "Yeah-- [unintelligible 00:48:24]. Paul Cook: [laughs] Me too. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [48:27] People go, "Yeah, before the fence was up, I used to go in this one." That brings back the stories, and often that's the nature of the visit, isn't it? It's perhaps a grandparent and family that have moved away, sometimes America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, these places, and family are revisiting. It's a trigger then for the grandparents to say, "Well, you know, we played in there." And then, the little children, great-grandchildren, and grandchildren, they then want to play in it as well. "Why can't we go in?" You have to explain, "Well, actually, as all playing in it back in the day, were hurting the tree, and now we understand that and we don't do that anymore because we want it to survive for another millennium, if possible." Doug Still: [49:12] That's the story of landmark trees everywhere. They span the generations and people have stories from when they were kids or their grandparents, and it's just been going on a lot longer in Sherwood Forest. Richard Townsley: [49:29] Yes, that's true. I've got a Facebook page of the Sheriff of Nottingham and I put regular pictures up about The Major Oak. I ran something recently when we're talking about Major Oak and the tree and just encouraging people to say, "Well, what local trees have you got?" There are Queen's Oaks, King's Oaks, Pilgrim's Oaks, Shire Oaks, these names crop up and people tell you about their trees and share pictures of them. There are lots of major oaks all over the place, certainly all over England. We just have this extra twist of the Robin Hood story, which makes it particularly special. Doug Still: [50:08] Are there any contemporary groups associated with Robin Hood that make annual visits or that you know of? Richard Townsley: [50:15] We have a number. [laughs] One of the things I like to say is that there are three Sheriffs, but there are an awful lot of Robin Hoods, and we have various Robin Hoods dotted around Nottingham. There's at least two or three in Nottingham itself. There's an official one and there's an unofficial one. There's a number of them. We have a very good group operating in and around Sherwood now called the Outlaws, and they do the outlaw side of the stories and I do the official Sheriffy side. There are lots of medieval reenactment groups and people like that. And it's a little bit odd. I've been doing historical reenactments for a very long time, but most history people are a bit sniffy about Robin Hood because it is seen as this element of fantasy and fiction and how much is true and how much is not. So, people that are devotees of Richard III or whatever are a bit, "Uh, Robin Hood is not really real history." [laughter] Richard Townsley: [51:14] Which is why I like to focus on the Sheriff because we absolutely know the Sheriff is real. We know a lot of what he did and we know a lot of other functions. I think using Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest as tales to entertain on their own right, is great. But also, that's a nice way into medieval history to talk about the kings, to talk about the forest, talk about who did what, which is really good. I've got a three-year-old granddaughter who is half Canadian, her mum's Canadian, and she wanted to meet Robin Hood. She came just before Christmas and was absolutely enthralled to meet Robin Hood. Didn't really care at all that her granddad is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Resplendent in the gear I was, but all she wanted really to do was meet Robin Hood. [music] Doug Still: [52:10] Back to Robin Hood. The King, disguised as a monk, threw Robin Hood into the mud with a huge splash and everyone laughed. The money was returned, but suddenly one of the men recognized the King, who revealed his face and in a moment of shock, all of Robin Hood's men kneeled in silence before him. The King's frown turned into a smile and with respect, pardoned the entire band. Robin Hood thought he was in the clear, but the King wasn't done. Nigel Holmes: [52:40] "You have said you would willingly serve me. I accept. You should come back to London with me, along with Little John and your cousin, Will Scarlet, and your musician, Alan-a-Dale. As for the rest of your band, we will have their names recorded as Royal Rangers. But you promised me a feast. Get it ready for I would like to see how you live in the woodlands." That night, the King lay in Sherwood Forest on a bed of green leaves. Early the next morning, he set out for Nottingham Town. Robin Hood and Little John and Will Scarlett and Alan-a-Dale shook hands with all the rest of the band, swearing they would often come to Sherwood to see them. Then, each mounted his horse and rode away with the King. [music] Doug Still: [53:35] As warden and after working so close with The Major Oak all these years, what does the tree mean to you? Paul Cook: [53:42] Well, one of the reasons why I'm working here is because of The Major Oak. My grandfather was a soldier in the Canadian Army, and he went out and fought in the Second World War and he got injured, he got a bit of shrapnel. So, he came to the UK and he was sent to the UK to recover from his injuries. And that's where he met my grandmother. My grandmother used to work in the botanical gardens. She was a gardener in the botanical gardens and obviously, he used to walk around there. Doug Still: [54:18] So, it runs in the family. Paul Cook: [54:20] Yes. So, that's where he met my grandmother. After the war, they decided to settle in the UK. He stayed in the UK, married my grandmother, and lived quite close to Sherwood Forest about 20 minutes from here. Obviously, then they had my mother. And then, I was introduced to The Major Oak when I was about four or five years old. We used to come up here every weekend, Sunday afternoon with a picnic and have a picnic on the green outside The Major Oak. I didn't know then that I would be working in Sherwood Forest. [laughter] Paul Cook: [55:04] I knew I'd be working outside in conservation. I wanted to work outside in conservation. Doug Still: [55:10] But you always remembered that. Paul Cook: [55:11] But that was the main thing I've always remembered. The time I was inside The Major Oak with my grandfather in the 1970s and then came back a good, what was that, 30 years later, to work in Sherwood Forest. So, now it's my job to actually help look after The Major Oak. Doug Still: [55:36] Yeah, and think of all those kids now. Paul Cook: [55:38] I see the same thing every day, yeah. I go to The Major Oak, and I see grandparents with their grandkids taking photographs in front of The Major Oak. So, The Major Oak has been in my life for almost all of it, the past 50 years. Doug Still: [55:58] As Sheriff, do you ever think you'll bring order to the county of Nottingham? Richard Townsley: [56:02] This is a very orderly county. Doug Still: [56:04] Oh, good. Richard Townsley: [56:04] It always has been. [laughs] Doug Still: [56:06] Well, I don't think you should be phased out. Richard Townsley: [56:09] Definitely not. We still need the Sheriff, and you can't have a Robin without a Sheriff. Doug Still: [56:19] As Richard Townsley, what does The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest mean to you? Richard Townsley: [56:24] It's just absolute part of my heritage. It's part of my personal upbringing. As I say, I've got two granddaughters, one is three others, not yet one, and I'm looking forward to bringing the second one here. I think they're not a Townsley until they've been into Sherwood until they've dressed up as Robin Hood and they've run around and we've had a picnic. So, I'm very much looking forward. Her name is Edith and she lives in Bath. We were discussing her being christened. She's going to be christened in the church in Bath, but I think for me, the christening will be when we bring her to the forest and introduce to The Major Oak. It's part of my family and my personal heritage. Doug Still: [57:04] Thank you, tree lovers, for joining me to discover The Major Oak. I'd like to thank my wonderful guests from Sherwood Forest, Paul Cook and Richard Townsley, for bringing this story alive, as well as Rob James for organizing the interviews. Special thanks to my friend, Nigel Holmes, for a spirited reading of excerpts from The Tales of Robin Hood, an edited version of Howard Pyle's book. And even more thanks to friends David Bor and Kim Wass for playing their recorders to provide the lovely early music we've heard. If you've enjoyed this show, please share it with family and friends. If you feel so moved, you can now contribute to the show via the Patreon link on the website, thisoldtree.show. Every dollar will help keep these episodes coming in the future. You can also find past episodes with show notes and transcripts. Thanks again for listening. I'm Doug Still and see you next time with This Old Tree. [music] Nigel Holmes: [58:24] In spite of Robin Hood's promise, it was many years before he saw Sherwood again. Eventually, King Richard died in battle as one might expect of a lionhearted king. After a time, Robin Hood was done with foreign wars. He came home to England and with him came Alan-a-Dale and his fair Ellen. It was springtime when they arrived with green leaves and small birds singing happily, just as they had done in fair Sherwood when Robin Hood roamed merry and free. The sweetness and joy of the time made Robin long to see the woodlands once more. So, Robin went directly to King John who had succeeded Richard the Lionheart and asked permission to visit Nottingham. His Majesty granted the wish but commanded Robin not to remain in Sherwood more than three days. So, Robin Hood and Alan-a-Dale set out for Sherwood Forest. As they approached the forest, Robin felt that he knew every stick and stone he saw. There now was a path he had often walked with Little John. Over there was the way he had gone to seek a certain friar to perform a wedding. As they rode, they shared memories of familiar places and deeds growing more wistful by the moment. At last, they came to the large clearing and the broad spreading great oak tree that had long been their home. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
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