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This Old Tree with Doug Still
London’s Charlton House Mulberry - Transcript Season 2, Episode 8 November 18, 2024 Doug Still 00:00 You're listening to This Old Tree, the show about heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug still. Did you know the British are mad about mulberries? [music] Sure, they are a people that love trees and horticulture in general, but the mulberry tree seems to hold a special place in their hearts. It has been the subject of nursery rhymes, poems and artwork. Ripe mulberry fruit has long been foraged, to be mashed into delicious jelly, syrup, smoothies, or sprinkled on biscuits with whipped cream. Historic landscapes and royal parks feature the tree, including the garden at Buckingham Palace that houses the UK National Mulberry Collection. Old mulberry trees can be found all around London if you know where to look. And looking for them is the mission of a local organization called Morus Londinium, which maps where they are and offers tours for the “mulberry curious.” On a recent trip to London, I had the pleasure of interviewing the group's leader, Peter Coles. Peter told me to meet him at the oldest living specimen in London, a 400 year old black mulberry on the grounds of a Jacobean mansion called Charlton house. I also had a lesson in the manor's history from the Chair of the Charlton and Blackheath Amateur Horticultural Society, Dr Stella Butler. To understand why this amazing tree is standing where it is today gets at the essential story and mystique of this gnarly but fruitful species. You might guess that it has something to do with the Crown, and you'd be right, but you might not guess that it was a government decree gone awry that led to the mulberry’s popularity. Join me to hear all about the Charlton house Mulberry. I'm Doug still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme song] Doug Still 02:21 Charlton House and Gardens was way across London from my hotel in Kensington, so it took about an hour to get there by train. Charlton is a leafy neighborhood on the south bank of the Thames, right next to the Royal Borough of Greenwich. In fact, it used to be part of it. I arrived to find an impressive three story brick manor house with a tower on each end. It's set back off of Charlton Road, fronted by a large lawn and symmetrical planting beds. Pedestrians with dogs and pushing strollers were finding their way around to a public park at the rear of the house, where you can also find gorgeous perennial gardens surrounded by brick walls that are maintained by a small staff and volunteers. The house is now a museum open to the public, managed by the Royal Greenwich Heritage Trust. I met Peter in the cafe. You may remember Peter from a previous episode when I interviewed him remotely about another mulberry tree in Truro, Massachusetts. After some tea, we strolled back to a corner of the front lawn where their noble tree is located, surrounded by a circular iron fence for its protection. We chatted there, and I got to know him better. So I'm at the Charlton house mulberry with author Peter Coles, who wrote the book Mulberry. 2017? Peter Coles 03:42 2019 actually, at the very end, actually Doug Still 03:44 Such a beautiful book with glossy pages and great illustrations. That really caught my attention, one of my favorite books. Peter Coles 03:53 Oh, good. Thank you. The content is down to me, but the presentation is the publisher. They're a very good publisher. Doug Still 04:01 Now you're also the manager, or I don't know what you would call it, of Morris Londinium. Peter Coles 04:06 Yeah, I co-founded this, and I'm also the person who runs it from day to day. Doug Still 04:10 What is it? How would you describe it? Peter Coles 04:12 It is a citizen science mapping project, really, I suppose, whose ambition was to document and preserve, initially, London's mulberry tree heritage. And by London, we meant within the ring road really, which goes around the city, called the M 25 and that just defined a geographic area for us. And when we applied for funding to get this project going, we had to make it achievable and definable, and so that we could measure some kind of progress and results. So we defined it to that area that was in 2016 and we got funding for 18 months for that, and it's now grown a lot since then. So, its ambition then was to document, preserve and raise awareness of our mulberry tree heritage, which is unique. There isn't another country in the world that has exactly the configuration we have of mulberry trees. Doug Still 05:12 Peter described others who were an inspiration during the early days of Morris Londinium. The first was Tim Tyler from Bristol in the southwest of England, who had been documenting mulberry trees. Secondly, a blogger who goes by the pseudonym “The Gentle Author,” had been writing about mulberry trees in his popular blog Spitalfields Life. Spitalfields is a neighborhood in the East End that used to be the silk weavers district of London, home to immigrant Huguenots from France in the 1600s who brought silk industry knowledge with them. The Gentle Author had been telling this story and mapping the mulberry trees. Additionally, Peter had been collaborating on historical research with Karen Liljenberg, a Tibetan scholar interested in the provenance of early mulberry trees. James Coleman of the Conservation Foundation at the time, created the Morris Londinian website and managed it for the first two years. So there was direct interest on multiple fronts. Well, let me ask you about your personal connection to mulberries. Peter Coles Okay. Doug Still Which was the first mulberry that captured your imagination. Peter Coles 06:20 I grew up near woodlands in a place called the Chilterns, which is a district of Chalk Hills not far from London to the north. And I spent my childhood with my brothers and parents and our dog walking in the woods. So I have an affinity with trees that goes back to my earliest memories, and I'll cut the long story short. I got very interested in trees as survivors, and trees, therefore veteran trees, trees that span various generations and various centuries and so on. And I was lucky enough to live in a place called Hatfield, which has a house about the same age as the one we're standing next to, a Jacobean house from the 1600s and that has many veteran trees in it, ancient oaks and so on that are possibly 600 years old. As a photographer, since teenage years, I started to photograph these just for their beauty, and to preserve them and to record them in a way as survivors of these different generations. And I was trying to organize some what I called urban nature walks, which was trying to find evidence of nature within the city, so you don't get this notion that the city is here and it's all concrete and glass, and over there you've got the countryside and it's all cows and hedges and fields. So I was saying that nature is in the city, and without it, probably we wouldn't survive. [Very important] Yeah. So that was one of my ambitions, to take some students around, actually, and show them. And in my researching for places to take them on walks, I found an old mulberry tree, which is, I hope perhaps we'll see later on in Sayes Court, which is the other side of Greenwich to where we are now, and that belonged to a diarist called John Evelyn, who lived at the same time as Samuel Pepys, and he also witnessed the Great Fire of London. So that situates his writings as a diarist around 1666. And so my interest in this grew, and it grew to the extent that I couldn't actually really keep up with it without finding an alternative to my day job. Doug Still 08:21 What was your day job? Peter Coles 08:22 My day job was a journalist and a writer and a photographer. So that was my day job, and it still is, actually, and I translate from French to English as well. Doug Still 08:31 Would they have been documenting tree planting in the 1600s? Peter Coles 08:36 Not really. No. The notion of trees as ornament predates the 1600s but not by a huge amount, actually. The 1600s is often taken as a kind of watershed moment where interest in trees and woodlands and things started because there was a change in the relationship to trees and interest in preserving them. Doug Still 08:59 So if a tree made it past 1600, then there's a much better chance of it living, for having some legacy. Peter Coles 09:08 Yeah, and people taking an interest in preserving it, I suppose. Yeah Doug Still 09:12 I understand there's evidence that mulberries were planted in Britain well before James I. What is the earliest evidence of mulberries? Peter Coles 09:21 Okay, that's a good question, because we're standing next to a tree which has a plaque, which you've reminded me is there, which says it was the first mulberry tree introduced to England in 1608, and the House does apparently date from them. I always thought it was 1611, but what's three years, very old. Doug Still 09:39 The sign, it's cracked. Peter Coles 09:40 Old sign is cracked, and it might not necessarily be wrong either. It's just that there is some ambiguity when you look at the records as to when this house could have… Doug Still 09:49 Could I read the text? [Yeah] It says, “Tthe first mulberry tree planted in England in the year 1608, by order of King James I.” But we know that that's not true, right? Peter Coles 10:02 It wasn't the first tree in England. Now the reason that we know that's true is for lots of different reasons. One is when the Romans settled in England in the first century. AD. They really, they came and they were kind of sent out back again, and then they came back in about 73 ad, and then they stayed here until about 435 or something. They stayed here for three and a half centuries or something. And in that time, they built a lot, and they established themselves. And in some of the villas, it seems likely that they planted mulberry trees, which were - they would have known from Europe. Actually, a lot of the Roman settlers here - the people, the colonizers - were from all over the place, as they were in the army. They were from Syria, they were from Italy, they were from France, Spain. You know, what was France? Then go. They would have all known around the Mediterranean black mulberry trees, which is what we're living, what we're standing next to next. So was this the first one? Well, probably not, because it looks like from an archeological dig that was done where the original London Bridge was built by the Romans, which is a wooden bridge. And there's a church there called the Magnus the Martyr, which was a wharf for importing fruit and vegetables and things for people the Roman, true Roman colonizers living here, and some of that came from quite a way away, and they found mulberry pips in the archeological dig in these archaeological evidence. And the mulberry seeds that we found are either related, or the archeologists have found are either related to religious sites, like their shrines and things like that temples so as part of a ceremony, possibly as fruit. Or as they are as in villas where they would have been used as a garden ornamental, which we know that they did back in Rome. Doug Still So more for the nobility. Peter Coles They would have been, yeah, not the troops. So people often say, “Oh, the troops were given mulberries because they were nutritious, they have medicinal functions,” and so on. But there's no real evidence for that as far as the historians are concerned. Doug Still 12:05 I’ll take a minute to explain. There are three main species of mulberry trees, red, white and black. There are a number of other minor species worldwide. In his book, Peter describes the big three, like cousins with very different personalities, even though they are from the same family. The red mulberry, Morus rubra, is native to North America and is becoming hard to find in its original form due to the presence and hybridization with the imported white mulberry, Morus alba. The white mulberry, on the other hand, is a world traveler due to humans and our desire for silk over the millennia. The leaves of white mulberry are the most favored food of the moth that produces silk, and both tree and moth originated from China. As Peter states, “No other tree has played a greater role in the economic and cultural prosperity of so many civilizations for so many centuries.” The cultivation of silkworms is called sericulture, and the cultivation of mulberry trees, specifically for the silk industry, is called moriculture. Both were spread via the web of old trade routes by land and also by sea across Asia, the Middle East and Europe, known collectively as the Silk Road. It can now be found thriving worldwide. We mostly consider it a weed here in the US, as it grows in empty lots along roadways and anywhere clearings occur. It mixes easily with other mulberries, producing many genetic variations. But the main point for this story is that regarding food for silkworms, Morus alba is numero uno. Then there is the black mulberry, Morus nigra, the species we were standing next to. It was originally from Persia, or modern day Iran. It found its way around the Mediterranean world through a variety of ancient civilizations, and as Peter has already explained, the Romans brought it to Britain. But it's not an ecological juggernaut. [To Peter] Would the trees have seeded in and naturalized in other places at that time? Peter Coles 14:11 Black mulberry is kind of odd, really. It has a genetic makeup which is very complex, and it means that it doesn't hybridize. So it won't mix with other trees of any kind, not white mulberries, not nothing. And the genetic variability in black mulberries is astonishingly low. And it was known even to the Romans, who had no microscopes or anything. But they knew that you couldn't breed new varieties of mulberry from a mulberry. So they don't really interbreed in that way, and their seed can be infertile. They have both males and females on the same tree very often. But yes, male and female flowers on the same tree. And these are catkins that look a bit like the catkins of some other species of tree, but they tend to be on different branches and different twigs. And the idea behind that is that they don't actually fertilize themselves. Doug Still 15:05 Peter described black mulberry as sort of a loner. You won't find colonies of it in England growing anywhere. It's more of a cultivated tree. And after the Roman period, specimens could be found within the walls of monasteries as fruit trees. When Henry VIII seized and dissolved hundreds of monasteries in the early 16th century in the aftermath of the split from the Catholic Church, the population of black mulberries likely took a hit. All that was about the change, represented by the tree we were standing under. We're going to get into all that, but first, I asked Peter to describe the Charlton House mulberry with all its charm and character. Peter Coles 15:42 Right? Well, there were ways to describe trees, but this tree is not what you sort of think about as a tree, which is a straight, tall trunk with leaves and branches, like branches coming off the sides, and kind of a leafy canopy at the top, which is a classic tree like an oak tree or an elm, or something that an ironwood, or any of these trees that we might be familiar with. This tree sort of looked like that, except it would never have grown very tall, and it would have started to lean over when it was about 80 years old, and it gradually leaned over more and more, and the trunk split. And it split into two trunks that eventually sort of fell apart from each other, and they fell onto the ground. Doug Still 16:27 Yeah. It looks like two trees. And it's leaning away from each other. Peter Coles 16:30 It’s been described in the past as two trees, which, in fact, it’s not. It's one tree which split many, maybe 2, 300 years ago, and it's now growing up as two distinct trees, in a way. Now this is called layering, to anyone who sort of knows a little bit about dendrology, the science of trees and their growth. And it's the way that mulberries like to carry on forever, really. When they get old, they like to lie down. They become less and less willing to stand upright and a bit of an effort. So they lie down, and they start putting out roots from buds that are dormant in the bark and the leaves and the branches, and not in the leaves and the branches of the tree. And they will start to generate branches that will turn into new trunks eventually. And that's what we see happening here, and that's now. They've now fallen apart, and they're growing up independently, like two kind of semi horizontal trees, both of them leaning on a circular fence, metal fence railings, which… Doug Still 17:32 …and they're propped by the fence. Peter Coles 17:36 Yeah, when people have mulberry trees, they tend to know that they lean over and they know that they don't want the tree either to fail or to fall onto a house or to fall onto somebody, so they tend to put props down for them. The interesting growth in this whole tree is a young tree which is no more than what would you call that? Say that was nine inches around, six inches around? Doug Still 17:58 Or just two and a half inches across. Peter Coles 18:01 …a two and a half to three inches across diameter tree which is growing sort of bolt upright, right in the middle of the two old trees that are growing away from each other that were possibly one tree. Doug Still 18:15 The volunteer here described it as a “phoenix.” Peter Coles 18:18 This is the Phoenix growth, exactly. Now these Phoenix trees - phoenix is the bird that arose from the ashes have been burned with flames and so on - and they came back. So this is a phoenix tree. Doug Still 18:30 The [black mulberry] leaves are generally broad with a sharp point. They sometimes resemble white mulberry leaves, in that new shoots can occasionally be asymmetrical, with lobes like a fig leaf or glove, but a more reliable way to distinguish black mulberry leaves is by the texture. Peter Coles 18:47 The leaves are very fine. They're very, they have a shine to them. They're quite thin. They're not hairy, and they can be either small or very big. Doug Still 18:57 The White mulberry has the glossier leaves. Peter Coles 19:01 Glossier leaves, and they're thin and quite flimsy, a bit more like lettuce, really, I suppose, some kind of lettuce leaf. So there's a lot of variety in the leaf shape, leaf size. But they all tend to be - all white mulberries tend to be smooth, and they tend to not have any hairs on the underside. Black mulberry is hairy and rough. If you look at it under my… Doug Still 19:22 I’m feeling one right now. [Yeah] And the bark is very beautiful, very gnarly and bumpy and full of character. Peter Coles 19:29 Yeah, the branch has a slight - the bark has a slight orangey sort of tinge to it. This one's got lichen growing on it, which is a sign that the air is quite clean here. It's an epiphyte. It's something that grows on the bark without doing any damage to it, and otherwise, in the spring, the whole ground area is covered in bluebells and primroses and wild spring flowers, basically, Doug Still 19:59 Well, one can expect a living being to have a lot of character after 400 years. Which brings me to the tree's origin story. As I said before, this tree is the oldest surviving mulberry in London, and very close to being the oldest in all of England. It dates back to the creation of Charlton House and Gardens built between 1607 and 1612 by a man named Sir Adam Newton. Who was Adam Newton? And if black mulberries were on the decline and only sporadically found, why did he plant one here? [theme music] We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll see how the Charlton House mulberry was one of thousands planted during that decade, kicking off a mulberry mania that lasts until this day. I'm Doug still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still Sir Adam Newton is not a huge figure in British history, so when I looked for books or scholarly articles about him, I didn't find any. Probably the leading historian of Newton is a trustee of the Royal Greenwich Heritage Trust, Stella Butler. She has recently tracked down letters of Adam Newton at the British Library, and has pieced together a biography of his life and interests. I had the pleasure of speaking with her about Newton, Charlton House, and the famous mulberry tree. She is also the chair of the Charlton and Blackheath Amateur Horticultural Society, and I asked her how long she had been at the helm. Dr. Stella Butler 21:48 Well, I've been involved since the end of lockdown, actually. So during 2021 I became involved as a volunteer gardener in what's now known as the old pond garden at Charlton house. And the volunteer program was organized by the Charlton Blackheath Amateur Horticultural Society, which had long met at Charlton house. I mean, for decades and decades it had met, you know, long before the Second World War. So there was a very close association between the Horticultural Society and Charlton house. So having joined the volunteer scheme, I joined the Horticultural Society and became a member of the committee, and then was elected Chair of the society. Doug Still 22:44 Well, I had the pleasure of seeing the gardens at Charlton House, and they're spectacular. I got some incredible pictures. Really great work. Dr. Stella Butler 22:53 Well, we're very, very proud of them. And we had a wonderful accolade this year of receiving the judges award in the London In Bloom competition. So it was a real, a real treat, real, real thrill for us all to have that kind of stamp of approval. Doug Still 23:14 Congratulations. So you began researching Sir Adam Newton, the original owner of Charlton House. There isn't really that much written about him, is there? Dr. Stella Butler 23:26 No, we particularly don't really know very much about his early life. We know that he came from Scotland. He was Scottish, although he spent some time as a young man in Paris, but we don't know very much about his background at all. What we do know for certain is that in 1599 he became a tutor to Prince Henry, who was the eldest son of James VI of Scotland. Doug Still 24:02 And that was IN Scotland, correct? Dr. Stella Butler 24:06 It was, the prince then lived at Stirling Castle. But when his father, the prince's father, James the sixth of Scotland, succeeded Elizabeth, the first to the English throne. They all moved south, including Adam Newton. Adam Newton was confirmed as a member of the Prince of Wales household, and he moved down with the prince in 1603 a couple of years later. He married a young woman called Katherine Puckering. Catherine came with a very rich dowry, lots and lots of money, and with that money, Adam Newton bought Charlton - the manor of Charlton. Doug Still 24:57 Where did the Puckering family live? Dr. Stella Butler 25:00 The Puckering family, Catherine's father was a member of the court of Elizabeth I, and he looked after Elizabeth I’s money. And while doing that, he managed to acquire lots of estates for himself. Doug Still 25:21 Funny how that works! [laughter] Dr. Stella Butler 25:26 But he lived principally at Warwick Priory. So in Warwickshire - they all had houses in London as well - but his country estate was in Warwickshire. Doug Still So he was a powerful man. Dr. Stella Butler He was, indeed, yes. Doug Still 25:43 Was Newton a favorite of the king, and was he already wealthy before he married into the Puckering family? Dr. Stella Butler 25:49 Um, he certainly wasn't wealthy. Um, the money that he had came from the Puckerings. I think that that is fairly clear. Whether he was actually a favorite of the king, we don't know. I think what we can say is that he was very well thought of because he was confirmed in the household of the Prince of Wales, and by then, the Prince of Wales, by the late 1600s you know, 1607 or 1608, the prince has really grown up. He's in his mid to late teens, and Adam Newton is still a member of his household. So I think we can see that Adam moves from being, he gets promoted, if you like, from being a tutor to being a very senior courtier in in the household of the prince who has now become the Prince of Wales. Doug Still 26:54 This is Prince Henry… Dr. Stella Butler That's right, Prince Henry. Doug Still …and so after he marries Catherine Puckering, they build the house at Charlton, the Charlton House. Dr. Stella Butler 27:05 They do, and the Charlton house, Charlton house is a very grand house. It's not huge, but it is very grand. It's very modern as well. It's quite clearly Jacobean in style. It was designed, probably by John Thorpe, who was a surveyor. It's actually an architect in the Estate Department of the royal household. So John Thorpe was involved in lots of other royal buildings, Somerset House, for example, and [?]. We know that because we don't have any actual plans from the time of its building, which was between 1607 and 1612, we're not absolutely certain. The uncertainty was added to because John Evelyn, the famous diarist, actually said that he thought the, well, he actually wrote that the architect was Inigo Jones. I suspect it probably was John Thorpe actually, rather than Inigo Jones. But either way, the house came out of the Royal Estate Department. So it's effectively part of the Royal Estate, although quite clearly owned by Adam Newton. Doug Still 28:30 How does that work? So he built the house. Was there money contributed from the crown? Dr. Stella Butler 28:37 He was in the pay of the court of James I. So yes, he was receiving his own money as well. He'd received various lands through royal patronage as well [I see]. But also, within the house - what is clear within the house is that there are lots of motifs of the Prince of Wales. So it's absolutely clear throughout the house that this is intended as a residence where the Prince of Wales would feel comfortable, and that is fit for a prince. And of course, it's up the hill from where his mum was living, down in Queen's House at Greenwich as well. Doug Still 29:31 So the prince would have come to the house. Dr. Stella Butler 29:35 If he'd lived, he would have come to the house. Unfortunately, Henry, Prince of Wales died in 1612, three months short of his 19th birthday. So unfortunately, although it was built for Henry, Henry's tutor, Henry's courtier, unfortunately Henry didn't get to live, to enjoy the house and its surroundings, Doug Still 30:04 Any evidence that the king himself visited the house? Dr. Stella Butler 30:09 No, we don't have that. I mean, it is possible that he did, but we don't know. Certainly Charles, James I’s son who became, who succeeded his brother as Prince of Wales, would have visited the house, because Adam Newton became Receiver General in Charles's household. So Adam had the stature, if you like, by that time, to be retained as a royal courtier. So he did very well indeed. Doug Still 30:52 Quite a change in history. He became Charles I, but it would have been Henry IX? What if Henry had lived? Dr. Stella Butler 31:01 Yeah, that's right, it would have been Henry the Ninth, yeah. Doug Still I see, instead of which, it was Charles the First? Dr. Stella Butler Yeah, you're right. Well, I can say that it's probably worth mentioning that when Charles came to the throne, Adam Newton was, in 1625, Adam Newton was, I mean, he was an elderly man by then, but still alive. So for the first five years of Charles' reign, Adam Newton was still at Charlton house, and may well have received the king as Charles I, but probably wouldn't have done James I, because he wasn't part of - Adam Newton wasn't part of James' immediate household. Doug Still 31:50 Well, it seems to me, the house was built to receive the royal party - the grand salon, and that sort of thing. Dr. Stella Butler 31:58 It is very much part of the royal network, I think that's what one can say. And one of the houses that the royal family and their entourage would have visited, yes. Doug Still 32:13 Who designed the landscape and gardens? Dr. Stella Butler 32:17 That we don’t know. The immediate landscaping work was probably done out of the same drawing office as the house. So it was probably laid out by John Thorpe, or possibly by Inigo Jones, but I think probably by John Thorpe. Doug Still 32:35 How would you describe the original plan? Dr. Stella Butler 32:39 I think they would have had a very Jacobean plan. So there will have been an axial path, a straight path up to the front door. It's not that far from a road. So it's not a winding country path at all. It's very much a straight path, I think. There would have been rectangular beds, and then there will probably have been kind of walks leading out into the wider parkland, which probably had trees added to it as well. Doug Still 33:17 So symmetrical in design for the most part? Dr. Stella Butler 33:21 Yes. Lots of straight lines. I think, though, there will have been lots of, probably low hedging in the Jacobean period, it's very much following on from that Tudor period, where what you get are square boxes or rectangular boxes and straight lines, really. Doug Still 33:44 So how did a black mulberry tree fit into this very ordered, formal landscape? Well, it turns out there wasn't just one. There was an entire orchard of them within the grounds on the left side of the house. Why? What was going on? Peter Cowles explains that it all had to do with King James I and his master plan to bring the silk industry across the channel to England. Peter Coles 34:09 Anyway, he came to the throne in 1604 and quite soon after that, he had this idea of building up a silk industry. Doug Still 34:19 What was his plan? Peter Coles 34:22 Okay, you have to take a broad - you have to zoom out a little bit, and you have to take in France and Spain and Italy, the other places that were actually on his horizon. And Italy, France and Spain all had thriving silk industries. They were producing silk rather than importing the fiber from Italy. That's not entirely true. They were producing silk, and they were importing thread from China and weaving their own silk, but they were also raising silk worms to spin silk that they would turn into thread that they would then have an independent source of the original fiber for their silk industries. And we didn't have that. That's a big advantage. Yeah, we were net importers of the whole thing. Not only had we to import the thread, but at one point we imported the silk as well. Doug Still And silk was highly valued. Peter Coles Worth its weight in gold. It was very transportable, and it was highly desirable, and it was in short supply. So silk - the secret of how silk was produced, was guarded by the Chinese for years. And I won't go into all the finer details of that, but that secret finally escaped. And so it was known that silk came from a silk moth that had a larval stage that spun a cocoon, and that cocoon, if unraveled, would produce something like a kilometer of silk thread, and you could then de-gum it and process it and turn it into fibers that you could then weave into silk. The Italians had a head start in terms of European countries and then the Spanish actually, but then the French. And at the time of James I, to come back to your question, France was led by Henri IV. And Henri IV really wanted to give a real boost to the their home grown silk industry, because they were also dependent on Italian and Spanish silk threads. So he and his agronomist advisor called Olivier de Serres recommended planting 1000s and 1000s of mulberry trees to feed 1000s and 1000s of silk worms, to produce kilometers and kilometers of silk thread and then be independent of China and things. There were also problems with the supply chain from China at the time. There had been banditry on the roots and things that meant that various things had not happened. So the supply chain was threatened anyway. So an alternative reason for wanting to have it, James wanted to copy Henri. [I see] Yeah, he copied him, basically. Doug Still 36:55 Who do you think was advising him? Peter Coles 36:57 Well, there was somebody called William Stallenge, and exactly what his relationship with France was, I don't know, but he seems to have been aware of some of the publications, both of Olivier de Serres and also some of the people that de Serres had used in terms of how to grow mulberry trees and how to look after silkworms. But William Stallenge was - he's down in the records as being a customs officer. But it sounds like somebody with a peak cap in Calais or… Doug Still Right a clipboard [both laugh] Peter Coles … the port of New York or something, but he wasn't that. He was actually somebody who had the right to patents on importation of goods, which is a very lucrative thing to do, which meant that you had the sole monopoly over the import and the taxes due on certain kinds of… Doug Still A powerful man. Peter Coles …so he was a powerful man within the court. And James thought, well, here's the guy who he trusts with this particular patent. And he had a French colleague called Francois de Verton, Sire de la Foret, which means seen kind of, what's it called, sire of the forest. And he and William Stallenge got the patent on importing mulberry trees and then sort of forcing, with one arm up behind your back, the aristocrats land that landowners basically to plant a few 1000 mulberry trees on their grounds and to find out how to raise silk worms to get the eggs and to hatch them and to go. Doug Still 38:23 So this would have been a natural place to have a small orchard of mulberries, because this would have been [yeah] - the king was responsible for building this house. Lot of ground… Peter Coles 38:33 The king was responsible for building it. Exactly the right period. Doug Still 38:37 William Stallenge, the Plymouth born merchant and customs official for the king was key to making all this happen. Peter Coles writes that Stallenge oversaw the publication of a book in 1607 called “The Perfect Use of Silkworms and Their Benefit,” which was written by Oliver de Serres and translated by Nicholas Geff. It was a sales pitch that forecast great profits if the industry were embraced correctly. King James was on board. He soon had 10,000 mulberry plants ordered and strongly urged the landowning ability to get on board and plant them. To set an example, James set aside four acres of land for mulberry trees within the grounds of St James Palace, which now corresponds to a corner of the garden behind today's Buckingham Palace. Sir Adam Newton was no different than anyone else in the king’s sphere. The garden at Charlton house was to have mulberry trees. I asked Stella about it. So let's get to the mulberry orchard. Have you found any mentions of the mulberry orchard in the documentary evidence that was planted at this time? Dr. Stella Butler 39:44 Not in Adam Newton's letters themselves. The letters that survive are correspondence between Adam Newton and Thomas Puckering, who was Catherine’s brother, so Adam Newton's brother in law. They do correspond about trees. Unfortunately, they don't correspond about mulberry trees. However, we do know from other sources that Adam joined in to James I’s project to establish a silk industry. And we know that Adam Newton bought, probably, I think he had to pay for them. But he bought from James, probably about 100 trees to plant in a group at the house, and we know that that one of the mulberry trees survives. Doug Still 40:48 And that's the one that we know today. Dr. Stella Butler 40:52 It is,yes, that is much cherished and looked after by the volunteer gardeners at Charlton House. Doug Still 41:00 So, as a member of the king's court, he really didn't have much choice in planting this mulberry orchard, right? I mean, it was kind of expected. Dr. Stella Butler 41:09 I think it probably was, particularly because he was building a new house. I suspect that others may have been less enthusiastic if they were having to find space in established gardens. But Adam Newton, it was a perfect time for him, because the house was built and the landscape ‘round it was developed between 1607 and 1612. So it's just at this period that James is trying to get a silk industry going, and it's just at the time that he's pushing these mulberry trees. What we do know from the correspondence between Thomas Puckering and Adam Newton is that Adam liked trees. I mean, not only did he like trees, he was fairly knowledgeable about them as well. And by that, I mean he knew he had experience of planting trees, of importing trees, of moving trees from one estate to another. The letters that we have between him and Thomas date between 1613 and 1617, and in one of them, in one set of letters, it's about Thomas, the younger man, was on his grand tour of Europe, and actually sent trees back to Adam Newton from Naples. So we have some correspondence about that. And then in 1617, we have correspondence about trees that are being dug up from Charlton House and transported to Warwick Priory, the Puckering estates in Warwickshire. [theme music] Doug Still 43:05 So James I led the way to sericultural prosperity, and England was forever known as a hub for silk thread and fabrics, right? It didn't really work out that way. After a short break, we'll find out what happened. This is This Old Tree. [music] Despite the gargantuan effort, the silk production was not what the king, or anyone had hoped for. Peter Coles 43:51 So what happened with James I and his mulberry trees is that it’s always said that he planted the wrong mulberries - the black mulberries rather than the white mulberries - in full knowledge at the time that the white mulberry was preferred. But nobody said you couldn't feed silkworms on black mulberries. Doug Still 44:09 Fingers point to William Stallenge for making the fateful decision to purchase and plant black mulberries en masse. De Serres clearly stated that white mulberry was the best for silkworms, and Italy, France and Spain successfully employed the white. But De Serres didn't rule out black mulberry altogether either, and Stallenge listened. In hindsight, it was a big failure, but one can see Stallenge's logic. Black mulberries had already proved capable of withstanding the colder, wetter British climate. Peter Coles 44:41 And the thinking was probably the black mulberry is hardier. It's got thicker leaves, and was more likely to resist the bad weather here than the white mulberry trees, which are really - they thrive in Italy in places where it gets quite hot, really, and definitely the winters are not severe. And here we were going through what's known as the Little Ice Age at the time in that particular part of the time for the next, for another 200 years. The Thames River froze over, and you could actually, there were people who were barbecuing meat and things on, you know, bonfires on the Thames. There were stalls there. People were skating on the Thames. And Elizabeth first actually went skating on the Thames at one point. So this whole thing was going [unintelligle]. So what happens when you get very hard winters? It could kill trees. It might kill white mulberry trees. It doesn't seem to have killed black mulberry trees, but what it does do is delay the coming into leaf of the tree, because they come into leaf, obviously, when the temperature reaches a certain point. So anyone who's grown silk worms will know that you have to hatch the eggs at the time when the leaves are just coming out, when the buds are just opening. Yes, so you have to get the timing right so the silkworms hatch at the same time as the leaves first come out. And if you have a very hard or late, long winter and a late spring, there's a chance, because you can actually bring on and incubate the eggs of the silk moth so they hatch at a certain time. And if you get that wrong, then you've got the nothing to feed them on, right? So the chances are that that failed, and it failed in those critical first years where nobody knew how to raise silkworms anyway. Two things happened with James. The first is that the colonies in Virginia were just being, I suppose, populated, colonized, and there was… Doug Still 46:41 So he thought, llet's put the white mulberries over there! Peter Coles 46:43 …let’s put the white mulberries over there. And you can do two things. When you do that, it's a better climate. So you've got a you know, and you've got a labor force. There were slaves coming over again, along with everything else. You've got the space for it, the climate's right, and so on. But also you've got another thing. James I hated tobacco. He hated smoking, and he even wrote a book about it. So Virginia was known for its tobacco, so he said, let's pull up all these nasty tobacco plants and let's put silk let's put mulberry trees in and we'll grow mulberry leaves for feeding silk worms, and we'll have a silk industry over there, and it took a while to get established, but it did, actually, in the end, work. So they planted white mulberries, after a little experiment with black mulberries, a little experiment with the native red Mulberry, and it didn't work, so they settled on the white mulberry. It took about 100 years before - in Virginia, but much more in Georgia and then some of the southern states - the silk industry grew up on a very viable commercial scale. For a while… Doug Still 47:50 I see. So as Americans, we have James I to thank for the white mulberry escaping into our landscape. Peter Coles 47:58 Yeah, which is a new kind of weed, which is killing off your native red Mulberry, right? And hybridizing with it. Doug Still 48:05 The silkworms weren't happy, and little silk was being produced. The endeavor failed, but 1000s of black mulberry trees were planted across the realm. Now, what? I asked about Charlton House specifically, and Adam Newton. How long did the mulberry orchard remain? What happened to it? Dr. Stella Butler 48:25 That we don't know for sure, but what we do know is, in the following century, later owners took out a lot of the trees. I mean, this was probably partly because of changing fashion, they wanted a more open aspect of the garden. But also it may well have been that some of the older trees, not just the mulberries, but some of the other trees that were planted, probably by then, had seen better days and needed to be removed. Doug Still 49:04 How long did that family stay at Charlton house? Dr. Stella Butler 49:08 Adam died in 1630 his estate was inherited by his son, Henry, who was then only 12. Henry married in the late 1630’s while he was still a very young man, and in the 1640’s became involved in the Civil War on the Royalist side. So he was on the wrong side for that war. [Yeah] Suffered terribly, particularly financially, and the money that they lost, he and his wife lost during the Civil War during the late 1640’s meant that in the 1650’s they were forced to sell Charlton House. And they left and went to Warwick Priory. They went to the Puckering estates, which Henry had inherited shortly before then. Doug Still It was the end of an era. Dr. Stella Butler It was indeed, yes. I mean, it was the end of that very close relationship with the royal family. Doug Still 50:21 But landowners didn't cut them all down, nor did they want to. There was one serendipitous benefit to all of those new black mulberry trees in the first decades of the 17th century, something to be thankful for. I'm told that the black mulberry fruit is absolutely delicious. Peter Coles 50:39 So, a lot of the fruit on the white Mulberry, Morus alba, is a dark purpley, black color. And it is also very nice to eat and nice to flavor things with. And a lot of people think that that is a black mulberry they're eating. Until you've eaten the black mulberry from Morus nigra, then you know the difference. Yeah. Doug Still 51:00 You feel that the fruit on black mulberry just tastes better. Peter Coles 51:05 Oh, it's definitely different. Yeah, no, the white mulberry tends to have a little stalk on the fruit, which makes it easier to pick. It's also quite firm, so it will come off in your hand. A black mulberry grows closer to the axial where the leaf joins the twig, and it doesn't have a particularly noticeable stalk. There is one there, but it's very short, so you've got to grab the berry. The berries are very fragile. Shakespeare talks about this, and they will fall apart in your hand very often, and the juice will run up your wrist. They're so juicy and so fragile, and so they fall about so much, fall apart so quickly that you have to eat them straight from the tree. Doug Still 51:47 That's not what it means to be caught red handed, is it? Peter Coles 51:51 That's what people say. And I have a colleague who is a tree expert, and he tells - when he gives guided walks - he tells people that. Doug Still 51:57 While I was roaming about Charlton House, I happened to meet one of the enthusiastic, hard working volunteers that make the garden so enjoyable to visit. Her name is Kathy Aitken, and she brought in another gentleman by the name of Jason Sylvan. I learned about what they do and how they care for the old mulberry tree. Kathy Aitken 52:16 My name is Kathy Aitken. Jason Sylvan And Jason Sylvan Doug Still 52:19 Jason, are you - you're a full time employee here? Jason Sylvan 52:24 I am a part time contracted head gardener. I did start off, though, as a volunteer as part of the same scheme, and have elevated my status up beyond these mere volunteers. [laughter] Kathy Aitken 52:36 Jason is now in charge of the volunteers. Doug Still 52:38 And how long have the volunteers been working here at Charlton House? Kathy Aitken 52:42 So we started in 2020, in February. So it was just before COVID, and we had about three sessions, and COVID locked us down. Doug Still 52:51 I see. It must have been nice to work outside during COVID. Kathy Aitken 52:55 Well, as soon as the lockdown lifted, it was absolutely brilliant. It started in the walled gardens. That's all we were looking after, to begin with. It was meant to be just a bit of light weeding, but then, after lockdown, we then met Jason. Jason joined the volunteers, and he had already done a garden design, which was just fabulous. And all the amateur horticultural volunteers just just went with it, which involved a lot more than just weeding. It actually meant taking it back practically to ground zero and starting again. Doug Still 53:30 What was the condition of the tree when you first started here? Kathy Aitken 53:34 The tree was not part of the volunteer scheme to begin with. So, once we got to grips with the walled gardens, we then saw the state of the wonderful mulberry tree. And it was fine, but it was covered in brambles and alconet. And I know from my own experience, I have a mulberry. We have a very baby mulberry, he's only 30 years old. But they do seem to hate things with long tap roots at their base. Doug Still 54:00 So you removed the weeds. Was there any pruning that needed to be done? Jason Sylvan 54:04 Light pruning. Yeah, not too much to the main, main structure, but where there's anything that's been snapped off, because obviously this is public thoroughfare, anyone and everyone will forage from it. Sometimes they're not as careful as other people, and they might just bend a branch down. It snaps and it's just left dangling. So things like that will - it's an obvious one that you need to tidy up in terms of sort of pruning for health. Kathy Aitken 54:30 One big branch that was dead, one big branch. Jason Sylvan 54:31 That was dead, yeah. But I mean, generally speaking, it's sort of on its own steam. And, I mean, yeah, we just kind of let it get on with itself, pretty much, don't we, because it's managing. [Yeah] Doug Still 54:44 Well, it's been here for 400 years, yes, so it probably knows what to do. [laughter] Jason Sylvan 54:48 Yeah. By this point, it sort of figured it out, yeah. Doug Still 54:51 But of course, the conversation swung back to the tasty fruit. Why are black mulberries important to to you? Kathy Aitken 54:58 The fruit. It makes very wonderful mulberry mulberry vodka. Doug Still 55:06 Mulberry vodka! I wasn't going to guess that. Kathy Aitken 55:09 Even my little 30 year old one produces enough for mulberry vodka. But I know this one they have. The Frilly’s Cafe have actually foraged a few and made mulberry jam. So that's very nice. Doug Still 55:21 Do you harvest the mulberries off this tree? Jason Sylvan 55:24 No, the public and birds tend to get most of them, and that's fine. It's a public tree at this stage, you know. So everyone's going to take from it, and it does seem to provide it. Have you tasted them yourself? Doug Still Mulberries? No. Kathy Aitken 55:39 No, because you can't buy them in green grocers, because they don't, they don't last. Yeah. So if you want to taste mulberries, you have to grow a mulberry. Jason Sylvan 55:47 So they are a bit of an acquired taste, like they are unusual, and I don't think everyone likes them. Kathy Aitken 55:53 The look puts you off, because they don’t look very nice. But if you put them in then they sort of explode in your the mouth. It's lovely. Jason Sylvan They do have this other taste that's a bit Kathy Aitken …try them in vodka. [laughter] Doug Still 56:02 Can you make a pie for mulberry fruit? Kathy Aitken 56:04 I imagine you can. I never have tried, but maybe this year, that's something if we are a bit bored with vodka. So we'll try a pie. Doug Still 56:10 I didn't know if you can get enough, but this one seems to be covered in them. Kathy Aitken 56:14 It will drop quite a lot of them. Jason Sylvan 56:17 We have seen people climbing up it like, like monkeys before. So they're really eager to get them. And I think a lot of the public sort of know, and they're - you see people walking past it and looking, eyeing it kind of, you know, in a like, “Are we going to get them first?” kind of thing. And they're just waiting for the first day when they start to become ripe. So it is known, and becoming, you know, more known every year as a prime foraging spot. Kathy Aitken 56:43 What I think is lovely too, is because theTrust that owns the property is trying to, you know, improve the house and get more footfall, to find this gem in the middle of Central London, really. And the mulberry is a big draw to the public to come and see it, because it's such a special tree. Doug Still 56:58 Why is this mulberry important to you? Jason Sylvan 57:02 Probably because it is so significant. I mean, we're adding to it now because of that importance. So we have, you already mentioned, we've planted another mulberry in the opposite corner of the estate. And the Greenwich Council grounds team who look after some of the site, lost one of their team. I don't know how they died, but they lost a member of their team, and so they planted another mulberry in the other corner of the site. So we have a commemorative one, one that we've put for our generation as part of that, our team, and this existing one. So you've got these three different sort of historical reasons why they are here. Doug Still 57:42 Thank you so much for speaking with me today. I feel like I got lucky to meet you. Jason Sylvan and Kathy Aitken You are more than welcome. Doug Still I asked Stella a similar question. What does this historic tree make you think about when you're on site at Charlton House? Dr. Stella Butler 57:55 I think it makes me think about the beginnings of the house. I think as much as those motifs of the Prince of Wales, the three feathers in the house. I think the mulberry tree represents that direct relationship with Adam Newton and with the Royal Court. So that's what it makes me think. Doug Still 58:24 Well, thanks so much for joining me today. That was really enlightening, and I learned a lot. Dr. Stella Butler 58:30 Well, it's an absolute pleasure. Doug Still 58:31 Thanks very much. And lastly, Peter Coles. Peter Coles 58:35 It’s a great tree of the British Isles. It's one of the great trees, and it's partly because it's in an urban area and it's very old. So I would say those two things really are important. Any old tree that's growing within an urban area has survived generations and centuries of decline and renewal and so on, and seeing kings and queens come and go, seeing plagues come and go, and wars come and go. So they have a heritage value beyond their natural beauty. Doug Still 59:05 Well Peter, thanks so much for joining me on this beautiful day under the Charlton House Mulberry, and talking about the history of mulberries industry in particular. Peter Coles 59:15 Well, thank you for your interest. It's been a pleasure to share what I know or some of what I know about the species that I have probably an unnatural fascination with. And there's so much more to know. Thank you so much. Doug Still 59:34 It appears black mulberry juice runs deep in British culture. I've learned that King James I had a lot to do with that, only not in the way he planned. Moriculture is the term for the cultivation of mulberry trees for the purpose of creating silk. But that word doesn't seem right anymore. In this case, mulberries are grown for their beauty, their fruit and for their own sake. I've coined a new term, “mulbiculture.” I wonder if it will stick. Regardless, it's truly special that the Charlton House mulberry tree is a living remnant of a pivotal time in British history and a witness to all that has happened since. [music] Doug Still 1:00:26 Thank you tree lovers for joining me today. Many, many thanks to my new friends and fellow mulbiculturalists Peter Coles, Dr. Stella Butler, Kathy Aitken, and Jason Sylvan for helping to tell the story. The music today was performed by an early music group out of Boston called the Renaissonics. Thank you to John Tyson for sharing it. The show's theme music is by Dee Lee and artwork by Dan Hiunii. I'll post pictures of the mulberry tree at Charlton house and gardens on Facebook and Instagram. The show website is this old tree dot show where you can also find a transcript for this episode. I'm Doug still and you've been listening to This Old Tree. See you next time!
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This Old Tree with Doug Still
Saving Seeds: Bartram’s Franklin Tree - Transcript Season 2, Episode 7 October 7, 2024 Doug Still: [00:01] You're listening to This Old Tree, the show about heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug Still. [ambient sounds] I've always had a botanist fantasy. As a listener of this show, maybe you've had it too. I picture myself crawling along a remote mountain slope or stepping through the brush in a rainforest in order to encounter a tree or plant no one has ever seen before. I'm wearing a broad brimmed hat and spectacles, carrying a moleskine notebook and specimen bag. Mosquitoes, humidity and hardships don't touch me in this world. Worries are far away and left behind. Immersed in the wilderness, plants communicate a strange language I understand, the arrangement of leaves, the shape of seeds, the number and color of flower parts. New species are there waiting to be found and named and appreciated. What fun it is then, to learn about an uncommon tree at Bartram's Garden in western Philadelphia with a real-life botanist story. [harpsichord music] The tree is Franklinia alatamaha, known as the Franklinia or Franklin Tree. Admittedly, it's not the original tree planted at this historic 18th century property, but it's a descendant. In fact, all Franklinia found in gardens around the world are offspring of that one tree. It was found in the colony of Georgia in 1765 by John Bartram and his son, William, and William later went back to collect a specimen. Soon after, the species went extinct in the wild. They were Quaker farmers from Pennsylvania. So, how did they find themselves on a botanical quest within the wilds of the south, a new frontier at the time? The story touches on many things: interest in new world plants by amateur gardeners; the quest for social status among European aristocracy; lifelong correspondence and friendships; colonialism; and a sincere interest in the expansion of scientific knowledge spurred on by the enlightenment. Benjamin Franklin and Carl Linnaeus make appearances. A marvel for the natural world was in the air, and it was infectious. To find the Franklinia story, I interviewed Tom Reber, the energetic director of Landscape and Facilities at Bartram's Garden. I also lean heavily on the research of the late Joel Fry, a past curator at Bartram's. Lastly, I share some of the trials and tribulations of John Bartram directly from his letters to friends and associates. Join me to hear about Bartram's Franklin tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] All roads to understanding the Franklin Tree led to Bartram's Garden. I met Tom Reber there on a warm, sunny day in May. It's located in western Philadelphia in what was previously the town of Kingsessing, and the area still goes by that name. Bartram's is a sanctuary of green here. The neighborhood is struggling and is starving for trees as low as 5% canopy cover, according to Tom. Probably, the nicest guy you could meet, he had an infectious enthusiasm for the beautiful colonial garden and grounds that he is in charge of. So, Tom, thanks so much for inviting me to the garden today. We're standing next to the famous Franklinia tree. We'll talk about it more in a minute, but first, could you describe where we are in the garden? Tom Reber: [03:56] Absolutely. And thank you for coming today, Doug. Right now, we're standing in front of the John Bartram house, what we call the common flower garden. This is the upper terrace gardens, and this is where the Bartrams would have been growing herbs and other shorter season vegetable crops for their kitchen, as well as a little bit of plant study, which is why we have some trees here in this section of the garden today. Doug Still: [04:26] Got it. The house is gorgeous. So, this is the front of the house? Tom Reber: [04:29] This is the front of the house. Today, we think of the front of the house in, historically, what is actually the rear, because we all come in off of the modern-day Lindbergh Boulevard with cars and on public transit. But in John Bartram's day, the river, the Schuylkill River, was the highway, and so the front of the house actually faces the river here. Doug Still: [04:51] A symmetrical herb garden gives way to a short lawn and then paths into a woodland that is basically an arboretum. Immense tulip trees, oak, hickory, sweet gum and numerous other trees create a canopy that leads down to the Schuylkill River. When was the house built? Tom Reber: [05:08] The house was started when John purchased the farm in 1728. And by 1731, the original house is completed. Doug Still: [05:17] He built it? Tom Reber: [05:17] He built the house. There was a wooden structure here on this land when he bought the farm. That intervening three years, 1728 to 1731, he quarried Wissahickon schist locally and built a smaller structure than what we see today that he continued to add on throughout the rest of his life. Doug Still: [05:39] It's a pretty impressive house for a colonial house. Tom Reber: [05:41] It's a very impressive house for a colonial house. Doug Still: [05:44] A few trees frame the flower garden in the upper terrace. One is an impressive ancient yellowwood tree that endured significant damage during a recent storm, but has received restorative pruning and other care by the landscape staff. On the opposite corner is what we came to talk about, the Franklin Tree. So, let's talk about this tree. Could you describe what it looks like? Is it a showstopper type of plant, or something else? Tom Reber: [06:12] So, the tree that we're standing in front of today is the tree that, if people know a plant relative to the Bartram’s, this is the plant. This is Franklinia alatamaha or the Franklin Tree named for Benjamin Franklin by his good friend, John Bartram. But Franklinia is an interesting tree. I do consider it a showstopper, but it can be subtle. It's in the tea family, so it's related to camellias. The new buds and leaves can be harvested like Camellia sinensis to make a type of tea with it. I've never had that tea. Doug Still: [06:51] Camellias are not native to North America, correct? Tom Reber: [06:53] And Camellias are not native, but this is native to North America, which is part of its unusualness. The other thing is that this is-- for most people, you might walk right by this through the growing season. Doug Still: [07:08] Now, I would describe it as about 20 ft high and a shrub-like mound. Tom Reber: [07:14] It is. That's where there's a little bit of friendly disagreement, whether it's a large shrub or a small flower. Doug Still: [07:20] Or, tree. [chuckles] Tom Reber: [07:22] We talk about it as a small flowering tree here. But they will get between 20 and 30 ft tall. Similarly, they're a fairly symmetrical canopy, so they'll be similarly 20 to 30 ft in diameter for the actual canopy drip edge. This tree is the oldest specimen we have here, but it's not the oldest in the region or the largest in the region. Doug Still: [07:47] Are they long lived? Tom Reber: [07:49] They are finicky. Sometimes yes, a lot of times, no. This is part of the reason that this tree doesn't exist in the wild anymore today. Doug Still: [08:01] This tree is extinct- Tom Reber: [08:02] This tree is actually- Doug Still: [08:03] - in the wild. Tom Reber: [08:04] -extinct in the wild. And it's very beautiful. Doug Still: [08:08] It reminds me of a plant that's in New England. I'm not sure if you have it here. Called sweet pepperbush. Tom Reber: [08:16] Yes. We do have-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [08:17] Alnifolia. Tom Reber: [08:18] Clethra alnifolia. Doug Still: [08:20] It has a similar - these upright, delicate twigs with the leaves on the ends of it. Tom Reber: [08:28] Right. And the leaves, while this branches alternately, the leaves are so compressed at the ends of the branches that they almost appear to be whorled. Doug Still: [08:36] Right. Tom Reber: [08:37] And then, the flower buds are held right underneath the leaves. Doug Still: [08:42] I see. Tom Reber: [08:43] Today, they're about a half inch in diameter. They need to grow for another two months before they'll bloom. So, this is a midsummer bloomer here. Doug Still: [08:52] Mm-hmm. Does it bloom all at one time, or are they a flower here, a flower there for a continual show? Tom Reber: [08:59] It has a little bit of both, but I would say it's more the latter, a little bit here and there. It has an initial bloom in July, typically. It puts out a subtle display, but is fairly uniform throughout the canopy. Once those flowers are bloomed out and the petals drop off, it will sporadically bloom through the rest of the season, even into fall color. So, sometimes this has a range of fall color between purple and really vibrant neon red. And you'll get the white of the flower bloom with those colors. Doug Still: [09:35] That sounds beautiful. What's its native habitat? Where does it like to grow? Tom Reber: [09:39] So, it likes similar conditions to so many North American ericaceous plants - rhododendrons, mountain laurels. But it likes moist, well drained, acid rich humus. It hates compaction. It doesn't like hot soil. It doesn't like really frigid soil. Doug Still: [10:00] So, it's not really a good urban tree, I’d say. Tom Reber: [10:02] It's not a great urban tree. It's a tree that many gardeners consider to be their holy grail tree, because it's so difficult to grow. Doug Still: [10:12] Tricky but beautiful, uncommon and unique. The flowers alone are enough to make you ooh and ahh. Five large white petals surround a dollop of bright orange stamens, like the yolk in the middle of an egg fried sunny side up. This particular tree is impressive, but its importance stems from what it represents. It's a living memory of that first Franklin tree that grew here, the savior of its species. The story of its discovery by John and William Bartram was researched in depth by a beloved curator at Bartram's Garden, Joel Fry. His article, “Franklinia alatamaha, a history of that 'very curious shrub’” is seminal to our understanding. I've been doing reading, and there was a curator here who was a John and William Bartram scholar, Joel Fry. He seemed like an amazing scholar, and plantsman and intellectual. Unfortunately, he passed away recently, yes? Tom Reber: [11:15] Yes. Doug Still: [11:16] When did he die? Tom Reber: [11:17] Joel passed away last March of 2023. Joel was our curator, and he was a world-renowned scholar of the Bartram’s. He was an archaeologist by trade and training, actually, and started here at Bartram's as a student in his archaeology program. I like to joke that Joel found a good place and just stayed. But Joel was here for a little over 30 years. And studied Bartram history, he studied the history of this specific land. He worked with historians, horticulturists, researchers, artists region wide and worldwide to spread the joy of horticulture, to spread the legacy of the Bartram’s and their interest in the natural world. Doug Still: [12:10] And he wrote quite a bit about this particular tree- Tom Reber: [12:12] He did. Doug Still: [00:12:13] -which I've been reading. Tom Reber: [12:14] He wrote a number of pieces. But he wrote a white paper in the 1990s about Franklinia. That's what’s considered the reference about the tree. Doug Still: [12:24] So, in many ways, the story of discovering the Franklinia tree was his to tell, right? Tom Reber: [12:31] It was. Doug Still: [12:32] No one told it better than Joel. Tom Reber: [00:12:33] No one told it better than Joel. Doug Still: [12:35] I'm sorry, I didn't have a chance to meet him. Tom Reber: [12:37] He was a wonderful man. We were those of us who knew him and worked with him incredibly lucky to know him. Doug Still: [12:43] We've got Joel's shoulders to stand on and also, biographers Edmund and Dorothy Smith Berkeley, who wrote the Life and Travels of John Bartram: From Lake Ontario to the River St.John. To me, John's transition from farmer to botanist is what makes this story fun. He had an innate obsession with the natural world and how it works, and he questioned everything. Could you tell us who John Bartram was? Tom Reber: [13:09] Sure. Absolutely. So, John Bartram was North American by birth, English by descent and came from a Quaker family. The Quakers are, what we call, the Religious Society of Friends. Founded in the 17th century in England as a reaction against the Anglican Church. John was born into the faith, and was a Quaker by practice through the entirety of his life. He wasn't a Quaker by membership for the entirety of his life. He was a member of Darby Meeting, that's not too far from here, for a good portion of his life into early to mid-adulthood. And then, as he was dealing with his own beliefs about spirituality and religion, disagreed with Quakers and actually chiseled his beliefs into the stone of his house here. Doug Still: [14:01] I see that above the- Tom Reber: [14:03] Yes. Doug Still: [14:03] -first floor window. What does it say? Tom Reber: [14:05] The inscription in 1770 that reads, “It is God alone, Almighty Lord, the Holy One By Me Adored, John Bartram.” This is John stating to the world that he believes in the divinity of God, but he believes that Jesus is a human and not necessarily the Son of God. And the Quakers did not like that. Doug Still: [14:24] I imagine not. Tom Reber: [14:25] No. So, they kicked him out. Doug Still: [14:26] And he was a farmer. Tom Reber: [14:27] And he was a farmer. So, we think of John today as a botanist. He was by training and by his own education. But he was never formally trained in horticulture or botany. He was a farmer by training. He grew up a farmer and bought this land to be a farm originally. Doug Still: [14:46] John married his wife, Mary, in 1723, and they had two sons. Unfortunately, Mary passed away in 1727, possibly in childbirth. One of their sons died at a young age as well. John was married again in 1729 to a woman named Ann Mendenhall, and they eventually had nine children together, all of them working the farm. So, one thing that he's not, that I've learned through my reading, is that he's not a British nobleman. Tom Reber: [15:13] That is correct. He's not a British nobleman. I wouldn't say that he's maybe peasantry, but he's in the middle class that's starting to grow in this time worldwide. Doug Still: [15:24] Right. Tom Reber: [15:26] Because Quakers are a small, very tightly knit religious sect, still at this point, the grapevine is very short. So, John, being interested in the natural world, starts to study nature, study plants, go out and bring plants back to his farm from the wild. And as he does this, he realizes that he doesn't know a lot. He starts researching, he starts reading things, he starts talking to people. Doug Still: [15:55] A successful farm needed supplies and helpful contacts. So, John often ventured into nearby Philadelphia for necessities. There, he befriended a merchant and fellow Quaker named Joseph Brentnall, originally from Derbyshire, England. Brentnall had taken up making leaf impressions with printer's ink on absorbent paper. John invited him out to the farm in 1733 to help him collect leaves for his hobby, and began enthusiastically bringing Brentnall varied new specimens on his trips into town. According to the Berkeley’s, these prints were delicate and beautiful. They were soon passed around to Brentnall’s friends back in England who greatly admired them and appreciated the images of foreign species they were seeing for the first time. One of these colleagues was a regular correspondent of Brentnall’s named Peter Collinson, a London merchant, and amateur gardener and plant collector. To him, what he was seeing looked like pure gold. Suddenly Collins' eyes focused on the colonial farmer, John Bartram. It's time for a short break. But when we return, we'll find out how Collinson opened the doors for John and changed his life forever. You're listening to the story of Bartram's Franklin tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [theme music] [harpsichord music] What did the Brits care about what was in the forests of Pennsylvania? It's hard to imagine now. But among a certain set at the time, North American plants were part of the quest for the new and unusual. Britain's passion for landscape gardening was elevated to an art form in the 18th century among the nobility and gentry, that is, people who owned land and could afford to have such a hobby. It was viewed as a pursuit of the educated and sophisticated. Garden design and horticulture reached into the middle classes as well, which is where we can place Peter Collinson. His interest in all things botanical was sincere and scientifically rigorous. He also saw that his knowledge and trade networks as a merchant opened a doorway to the British elite. Heads were turned to the colonies. And as a mover and shaker and avid correspondent, Collinson had a lot of friends there. But frustratingly, friends couldn't be relied on to send him specimens, despite his repeated requests. He needed to find a collector in the colonies who shared his obsession and love of the natural world, who was committed and who had attention to detail, someone with the time and fearlessness to venture into the wilderness. Sometime in 1733, Collinson Philadelphia contacts introduced him by letter to John Bartram. Tom Reber: [18:53] People here knew that John was going out into the wilds exploring and bringing plants back, studying them, seeking knowledge, and knowing that Peter Collinson was a merchant in England and he was looking for his niche to make his money. And so, John is connected with Peter Collinson, and then becomes the purveyor of plant and animal to the nobility of basically the entirety of Europe. While John and Peter never actually meet physically, they correspond. Doug Still: [19:25] Amazing. Tom Reber: [19:26] And they write tons and actually, most, a lot of what we have today is Peter Collinson and John's correspondence that tells us about the man today. Doug Still: [19:34] Now, this went on for decades, right? Tom Reber: [19:35] It went on for decades. They might as well have been next door neighbors and best friends, because at times, they actually get very testy with each other in their [Doug laughs] writings. It's very funny to read some of them today. This is what allows John, what funds John's efforts in plant exploration, because he's one of very few people who's interested and sort of fearless in going out into the wilderness of North America and finding new things. Doug Still: [20:04] The earliest surviving letter was from Bartram to Collinson, written July 17, 1734. Interestingly, it wasn't about plants or trees at all, but about a rattlesnake he dissected, revealing the pattern of teeth and mechanism for ejecting poison. Collinson thought the account was good enough to read to his fellows at the Royal Society of London, the world's foremost scientific organization founded 70 years earlier. It was published, which must have been a thrill for young John Bartram. By then, Bartram was already shipping plants to Collinson. He had first collected seeds and specimens locally, then started making longer, more extensive expeditions up the Schuylkill River and into New Jersey for days at a time. Collinson showed his appreciation frequently, like in this letter, dated January 25th, 1735. Peter Collinson: [20:58] “My good friend, John Bartram, I am very much obliged to thee for thy two choice cargoes of plants which came very safe and in good condition, and are very curious and rare and well worth my acceptance. I'm very sensible of the great pains and many tiresome trips to collect so many rare plants scattered at a distance. I shall not forget it, but in some measure to show my gratitude, though not in proportion to thy trouble, I have sent thee a small token, a calico gown for thy wife and some odd little things that may be of use amongst the children and family.” Doug Still: [21:35] Collinson tried to be clear with his instructions. First, asking for seeds of common plants that were to be numbered in a particular way with common names attached. Before long, he sent Bartram sheets of brown and whited brown paper with which to press herbarium specimens to be included along with the seeds. Soon thereafter, living specimens were to be sent when appropriate. Collinson suggested an ingenious method for preserving live specimens after John described the loss of several during a recent trip. Peter Collinson: [00:22:07] “This accident brings to my mind, a very pretty method, by which plants will keep fresh three or four days on a journey. Take three or four large ox bladders, cut off the neck high, and when a plant is found, take it up with a little earth to the roots, put this into the bladder, then put water in the bladder to cover the roots, then tie up the neck of the bladder, close round the stalk of the plant, leaving the leaves, flowers, etc., without. Large plants won't do so well, but several small plants may be put into a bladder. When tied, hang it to the pommel, or skirts of the saddle or any other convenient way thee may choose.” Doug Still: [22:53] John Bartram's reputation as a studious collector began to grow back in England. The individual specimens he shipped caused fascination and contributed to the field of botany. But for Collinson, that was not nearly enough. He worked with patrons who sought to populate their landscape gardens with the new and exotic from around the world. Collinson was soon asking for seeds from Bartram in bulk, to be grown and sold to major estates. One young nobleman in particular became a major patron of his horticultural services and, by extension, Bartram’s. He was the 22-year-old Robert James, or Baron Petre, who had recently been elected to the Royal Society. He took up residence at Thorndon Hall in Essex, a sizable estate. He desired formal gardens, groupings of new trees, tree lined avenues and reforestation of an area around a large park. Baron Petre wanted trees, lots of them. Collinson convinced him to build an expansive collection with diversity in uncommon species. Therefore, Bartram was retained to send thousands of seeds to be germinated and grown into plantable whips. Trees like black walnut, dogwood, red cedar, red oak, American sycamore and other species. Collinson's client list was growing, and the young Baron was chief among them. Peter Collinson: [24:16] “Kind friend, John Bartram, I am just returned town from paying a visit to a noble lord, my most valuable and intimate friend. One of my proposals I sent thee last year to collect the seeds of your forest trees was for him, as he is a universal lover of plants. I presented him with a share of the seeds thou sent last year, which was very acceptable, as he is a man of noble and generous spirit. He very rationally considered thy pains and thy trouble in collecting them, and desired to make thee some returns and left it to me. If thee can compass to send 30 or 40 sorts of your herbaceous seeds every year, it will be sufficient.” Doug Still: [25:01] Bartram happily obliged. After each outing into the forest, he would return with saddlebags bulging with specimens to be boxed and shipped. Many he planted in his own garden as well for his own interest. It had become an obsession. Tom Reber: [25:15] Because all of the plant material that John is bringing from his travels in North America comes back here to this site and is grown out in what today we might think of as a trials garden arrangement. Linear beds fairly close together with really no aesthetic consideration about that. Plants planted adjacent to each other that really don't necessarily grow together in the wild, may not even be from the same region, and then studied from there. This is part of what lends it to that narrative that we hear today from George Washington and others that know call this a messy garden. Doug Still: [25:55] [chuckles] But it meant time away from the farm. And to continue this work, he asked for an annual stipend from Baron Petre. Collinson was able to negotiate a salary of 10 guineas a year, and a few other noble clients chipped in with their own sums. Bartram's hobby had quickly turned into a side business. Here's another letter from Collinson from 1735. Peter Collinson: [26:18] “Kind friend, John Bartram, I had the pleasure of thine of June 13th, and am pleased the things was acceptable. I have sent the little box of seeds to our noble friend, what he raises, I have always a share of which will produce thee some money here. The water beech or buttonwood is known here as the western plain, and is in great plenty here and makes a noble tree. Thee need not send any for it is raised plentifully by cuttings. But as for the linden or lime tree, for aught I know may be a stranger. So, pray send some seed.” Doug Still: [26:56] As for shipping, onboard thievery and looting was common, as was damage from water, livestock or a host of other reasons. But they had a special solution: ask the captains to stow the boxes under their beds in the captain’s quarters. Peter Collinson: [27:11] “There is two captains, Richmond and Wright, whom I love and esteem and will take care of anything for me. What is in casks or boxes, tell them, I will pay freight for. But little matters, as they are so kind to bring free.” Doug Still: [27:26] And later that year. Peter Collinson: [27:28] “Thee canst not think how well the little case of plants came being put under the captain's bed and saw not the light till I sent for it.” Tom Reber: [27:37] So, John, in connecting with Peter Collinson and working with shipwrights merchants to size his box to transport plants really is the first to crack the code and how to ship live or otherwise life-able plant material worldwide. Doug Still: [27:57] After expeditions to New Jersey in the interior of Pennsylvania, Bartram was urged to travel further afield by his associate armchair explorers in England. Journeys were made to Maryland, Virginia in the western frontier of New York. He traveled alone. And despite detailed instructions from Collinson about employing a servant and using multiple pack animals, he usually just had one horse with large saddlebags. Collinson and Petre gifted him a compass to use. For housing, Collinson paved the way for Bartram by letter with his network of friends and associates in the colonies. He would sometimes apologize ahead of time for Bartram's rugged dress and appearance, but in general, his hosts were greatly interested in meeting him and showing him their own gardens. John was grateful, but would sleep anywhere he could. He asked for harbor from people he met along the way and even slept on open ground. Here's a report he gave to Collinson after an expedition in 1738. John Bartram: [28:58] “I have received thy letters of recommendation to Maryland and Virginia, which I hope may assist me in my journey thither. The next day, I came to a house a good while before night where I intended to lodge. I asked them, “How far to the river?” They said two miles. I turned out my mare at a pasture. I had in mind to go there to look what kind of plants grow that way. But the man of the house not being at home, I had no guide but my pocket compass, thee sent me, which is my constant companion in my distant travels. The way being very uneven and hilly, I steered directly toward the river without either coat, jacket or hat on. It was exceedingly hot, but the way full of trees and shady.” Doug Still: [29:41] John's travels brought him in continuous contact with indigenous peoples throughout the eastern seaboard. Negotiating his safety as a solitary traveler and explaining his purpose to native tribes was an integral part of his planning. It was often risky, and he was rightly viewed with suspicion. While specimen collecting could be considered acting with a light touch, his activity, presence and very being was part of the brutal, unstoppable colonizing force that Europeans brought to North America. It's a history we know all too well. Ancestral lands were taken, hunting grounds overrun, treaties made then violated, people sickened and natural resources removed. Trees were one such resource. Furthermore, plants that were novel in 18th century London had, of course, been known to Native Americans for eons. But the more western science came to know about the botany of North America, the more forests could be plundered for the benefit of unseen powers in Europe without any reciprocity. We shouldn't forget this part of the story. John Bartram's farm in Kingsessing, Philadelphia and much of the surrounding area was the ancestral home of the Lenape people, who inhabited the region for thousands of years. The Quakers and other settlers had displaced them. John had a personal reason to be fearful wherever he went. When a teenager, John's father and stepmother moved to Carolina to start a new settlement with other Quakers leaving John and his brother, William, behind with their grandmother. Vigorously defending their homeland, the local Cherokee of Carolina brutally killed his father and the other white men of the settlement. They abducted his stepmother, who later escaped with her newborn baby to tell the tale. The Berkeley's book, The Life and Travels of John Bartram, shines a light on many of his own interactions with indigenous peoples in fascinating detail drawn from his writings. For an example, an entire chapter is devoted to Bartram's journey to upstate New York to the headquarters of the Five Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy composed of the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida and Mohawk tribes. In 1720, the Tuscarora were admitted as the sixth nation. Bartram's trip to Onondaga, their capital, was planned with the help from Conrad Weiser, Pennsylvania's main ambassador to the Iroquois. It was seen as a peace seeking mission, and Bartram could explore the vast forests. He later sent a written account of the six-week trip to Collinson that was so engaging that he had it published in London to great popularity. It included accounts of dinners with important chiefs, a sketch of an Iroquois longhouse and descriptions of their farms. John wrote with appreciation about the food shared with them, bowls of boiled squash, venison, bread and fruit, and all the ways that hospitality was extended to them. He learned about the trees sacred to the Iroquois and how they were used, sugar maple, hickory, chestnut and oak. A PDF copy of the original published book of 1751 can be found online via the Biodiversity Heritage Library. I recommend it as a fascinating view into the past. Through the 1740s, 1750s, and 1760s, John Bartram's reputation continued to grow, and he made substantial contributions to the emerging fields of botany and plant taxonomy. His discoveries were championed by the Royal Society in London and its fellows, and he was eventually recognized as a leading authority on natural history in the American colonies. Tom Reber: [33:20] In horticulture, the Bartram’s are some of THE first and best known North American botanists. John is spoken about in the same realms as Peter Kelm, André Michaux, Carl Linnaeus actually. Doug Still: [33:41] Carl Linnaeus, a Swedish biologist and physician, is often known as the father of modern taxonomy. His binomial system of nomenclature for species is still used today. Bartram and Linnaeus knew and respected each other. And the humble Quaker from Pennsylvania often mixed it up with this towering figure of botanical history. Tom Reber: [34:02] John has his own botanical nomenclature and scientific nomenclature that disagrees with Linnaean nomenclature. Doug Still: [34:09] Really? Tom Reber: [34:10] Yes. Doug Still: [34:10] I knew that Linnaeus was aware of John Bartram's activities, and what he was looking for. Tom Reber: [34:14] They definitely were. They disagreed on nomenclature and stuff, but they also corresponded about nomenclature. Doug Still: [34:21] Bartram became a fixture of intellectual life at his home base of Philadelphia as well. This is where he met another one of his champions in the 1730s, Benjamin Franklin. Although Bartram was six years his senior, the youthful but worldly Franklin rose to fame and wealth as a newspaper editor and printer, publishing the Pennsylvania Gazette at the age of 23. He followed with Poor Richard's Almanack shortly after. The two shared a fundamental interest in the natural world and remained close friends throughout their lives. Tom Reber: [34:54] So, Ben Franklin was one of John Bartram's patrons. Doug Still: [34:58] Amazing. Tom Reber: [34:59] Incredible. One of the things that John Bartram is seeking in payment for plant exploration is knowledge. And Ben Franklin unlocks knowledge for him. Doug Still: [35:11] Bartram was lucky enough to be a subscriber to the library company of Philadelphia, the first lending library of the Americas founded by Franklin. Then, in 1743, Franklin founded the American Philosophical Society, a scholarly organization promoting knowledge of the sciences and humanities. It was modeled after the Royal Society of London, for which Bartram had already published. Franklin recruited Bartram as a founding member. Both men were essentially self-taught. So, maybe Franklin was drawn to Bartram, because he saw a bit of himself. Throughout their lives, he enjoyed following John's work as a boots on the ground naturalist. He often encouraged Bartram to write a natural history of the Americas, but writing skills weren't his forte and he never completed it. Franklin was fascinated by botany. An example of their lifelong correspondence comes with this amazing letter from Paris of May, 1777, the last year of Bartram's life. It's amazing to me at least, because when Franklin wrote this letter, he was setting the stage for The Treaty of Alliance with France, which was crucial to the success of the newly formed United States during the Revolutionary War. As a diplomat, Franklin had the weight of the world on his shoulders. Yet, he found time to write to John Bartram with some nuts and bolts instructions about seeds. Benjamin Franklin: [36:35] “My dear old friend, the communication between Britain and North America being cut off. The French botanists cannot in that channel be supplied, as formerly, with American seeds, etc. If you or one of your sons incline to continue that business, you may, I believe, send the same number of boxes here for what it wants in that way. Enclosed is a list of sorts wished for here. If you consign them to me, I will take care of the sale and returns for you. There will be no difficulty in importation, as the matter is countenanced by the ministry for whom I received the list. My love to Mrs. Bartram and your children. I am ever my dear friend. Yours most affectionately, B. Franklin.” Doug Still: [37:21] It's no wonder then that the special new tree species the Bartram’s found in Georgia was named after Benjamin Franklin, the Franklinia. And yes, that's Bartram's, plural, which brings us to John's third son, William, a key member of the story of the Franklin tree. How'd he get a part in this? Well, John found pleasure in that at least one of his children showed interest in his botanical hobby, and that was young Billy, as he was called. Credit, Edmund and Dorothy Smith Berkeley for much of this research on young William Bartram. In one sense, John enjoyed traveling alone on collecting expeditions, but part of him wanted to share his discoveries and love of nature out in the field, and also carry some of the burden. Wrote John, “I am often exposed to solitary and difficult traveling beyond our inhabitants, and often under dangerous circumstances, in passing over rivers, climbing over mountain and precipices amongst the rattlesnakes, and often obliged to follow the track or path of wild beasts for my guide through these desolate and gloomy thickets.” His children begrudgingly followed along when forced, but it was Billy who found the spark after a few collecting trips. At the very least, it sure beat farm work. John began calling him, his little botanist. At age 14, he accompanied him on a rigorous trip to the Catskills, well documented in John's journal. During the journey, each was weakened by fever at different times, the other picking up the slack. After the arduous trip, a shipment of four seed boxes was sent to the Prince of Wales, and William Bartram's name was included on the published list of available product. Billy's enthusiasm began to grow. He started sketching the specimens they found together. And the sketches soon developed into technically proficient botanical drawings. Impressed, John sent some of them to Collinson, who remarked on his talent. Billy’s intellect convinced the Bartram’s to send them to the academy in Philadelphia as a young teenager, an institution that eventually became the University of Pennsylvania. Tom Reber: [39:35] So, John and William were an interesting pair here. From my familiarity with some of each of their writings and just the history, they were very similar. William, oftentimes at younger ages, was seen as that prodigal son by John. William was the creative. William was an artist. He was not a farmer. He also was not a botanist by training, initially, at least. He finds this. John gets very frustrated with William, as William is flailing around trying to find his path and direction and place in the world. But through all of this, William is always drawing and always painting. Actually, some of the earliest drawings of the map of the garden and even botanical illustrations do come from William for this place. Doug Still: [40:32] Billy wanted to draw, and John became concerned about his son settling on a proper career. Botany and drawing didn't seem viable, and hard labor definitely wasn't going to cut it with this somewhat delicate boy. They thought maybe a mercantile career was the answer. Meanwhile, Billy began drawing turtles. They were so exquisite that Collinson gave them to the editor of Gentleman's Magazine to be engraved for the publication. William's drawings even caught the attention of George Ehret, England's renowned botanical illustrator. His work was not only beautiful, but meticulously accurate, offering scientific value. Regarding his career, however, even Ben Franklin weighed in with some advice, suggesting an apprenticeship with an engraver in Philadelphia. But by the time he was 18, it was determined that he should move to North Carolina to work under the wing of his uncle, William, who was a merchant operating a trading post. Billy slogged away there for seven years and learned the trade. He sometimes sent his father specimens upon request, but more frequently, he gave his parents fits for falling out of contact. He was an unmotivated correspondent. John didn't know it then, but he need not have worried. William Bartram was to find lasting fame as America's first native born natural history artist, and a writer and explorer of the southeast landscape. His fortunes changed in 1765 when he received a letter from his father recruiting him on a trip into the forests of Georgia in northern Florida. After a short break, we'll tag along on the trip that brought us Franklinia alatamaha, the Franklin tree. This is This Old Tree. [theme music] [harpsichord music] Big news. John Bartram had been awarded the title of his Majesty's Botanist for North America. This appears to be a supplement to the title of “His Majesty's Botanist” stationed in Britain, a position that still exists today in an honorary capacity. At the time, France had its own King's Botanist, André Michaux, but that is another story. John was thrilled by the honor, and he was to receive a salary of £50 per year. That was a relatively paltry sum that displeased Bartram, which he complained about loudly to Collinson. Anyway, John sent a letter to his son, Billy, to share the news and to let him know he was coming south on assignment to Florida, and he needed his son's help. John Bartram: [43:22] “Dear son, William, soon after cousin Smith set off for Cape Fear, I received a particular account that our King had appointed me his Chief Botanist, and I am ordered to go directly to Florida. I have taken passage in a vessel bound to Augustine and thence to Pensacola with my good friend, General Bouquet, for whose sake I go sooner than I intended. Perhaps, the vessel may touch at Charlestown. It is some question whether I shall not stay about Augustine or Georgia this summer, and perhaps winter in the Peninsula or East Florida, but I can't tell which till I speak to Governor Grant and the superintendent of Indian Affairs, whom I must consult. I am daily writing for further orders and recommendations from court. But our friend, Peter, ordered me to take my son or a servant with me. As thee wrote to me last winter and seemed so desirous to go there, now thee hath a fair opportunity. So, pray. Let me know as soon as possible. Our vessel is to sail in about two or three weeks.” Doug Still: [44:16] Florida had recently opened up to British colonists. The Treaty of Paris of 1763 ended the Seven Year’s War, also known as the French and Indian War. As a result, Great Britain received Spanish Florida. It was open for exploration as much as indigenous tribes allowed, and the area was of great interest to science and plant collectors. The newly appointed King's Botanist was urged to go there. He received detailed instructions from Collinson. He was to make observations on the soil and topography, and to collect specimens of ore, plants, insects, shells and fossils to be shipped from Pensacola, St. Augustine and Charlestown. He was to sail first to Charlestown and procure horses there. Leaving July 1st, 1765, the sea voyage took six days from Philadelphia to Charlestown. Along the way, Bartram became very sick and dizzy, not used to being at sea. Upon arrival, Bartram lodged for several days at the home of Dr. Alexander Garden, with whom Bartram had corresponded for many years. Billy had agreed to go. And his job was to provide drawings of their finds. So, John went a few hundred miles north to the town of Ashwood to visit his brother, William, and retrieve his son. They returned to Charlestown two weeks later, of course collecting plants and making observations about soils along the way. On the last day of August, John and Billy set off for Savannah. The departure of His Majesty's Botanist captured the public's interest in an article printed in the South Carolina Gazette. On the first night of their journey, they reached Willtown, South Carolina, but were refused lodging by the tight knit community there. They were prejudiced against Quakers. One owner reluctantly agreed to let them sleep on the floor of a rat-infested corn crib behind his house. They reached Savannah on September 4th, passing large estates along the way. John wrote to his wife, Ann. John Bartram: [46:16] “My dear spouse, this day, we arrived at Savannah town in Georgia by 10 o’clock. This was reckoned a very hot day here, with thunder and showers. Thermometer 86. They have had here, as well as at Charlestown, the hottest summer and wettest August that hath been for many years. Many great bridges is broken down, and we were forced to swim our horses over. But God Almighty be praised, we got safe into Georgia. Strange it is that in all this dreadful season for thunder and prodigious rain, we have not had occasion to put a greatcoat on in both the Carolinas, nor rested one day on account of rain. But we can't expect to be favored for so long. However, God's will be done. We are now hardy and has a good stomach. The people say that if we can weather this month, we need not fear. We have been pestered these two mornings and evenings with very large mosquitoes, but their bite is not near so venomous as the small sort at Charlestown.” Doug Still: [47:11] The two then made a long trip up to Augusta, Georgia to visit a colleague, and arrived back in Savannah on September 20th through heavy rains. Bedraggled, they dined with Governor James Wright, the last Royal Governor of Georgia. They waited for the floodwaters to go down and the ground to dry. And after all this, they finally left for Florida on September 30th. They headed south and were hosted for a night in Riceboro. They wrote about a magnificent stand of longleaf pine, one of which they measured 90 ft to the first limb and another, 28 ft to the top. In addition to pine barrens, they walked through groups of palmettos, dwarf oaks, and another tree described as “resembling a catalpa, with pods as round as an acorn.” One prized tree, front and center within John Bartram's radar, was the loblolly-bay Gordonia lasianthus. It is a shrubby evergreen tree with a camellia-like flower, not unlike the Franklin Tree. Bartram had previously encountered it in North Carolina and had begun growing it back in his home garden. They would have encountered it throughout the coastal plain they were currently passing through. They hoped to reach Fort Barrington before dark, a small outpost situated on the Altamaha River. Instead, they missed a turning point and spent the night four miles below the fort. However, this was the day that John and William Bartram encountered something new. They found two “very curious shrubs,” as written in John's journal. One is known today as the fevertree, Pinckneya pubens. The other was a small tree never seen before by European eyes. It was short statured with ovate leaves like the loblolly bay, but it was different. Its leaves were clustered at the ends of long, delicately twisting branches which likely were beginning to turn a gorgeous magenta red, as it was early fall. There wouldn’t have been any visible flowers this late in the season. Maybe they saw the notable dehiscent seed capsule splitting into four parts. What we do know is that they didn't take any seeds or collect a specimen. Perhaps, they were exhausted after getting lost all day in difficult swampland. All they did was note the two “very curious shrubs.” This was the tree that would eventually be known as Franklinia alatamaha, the Franklin tree. So, that's it? No raves or effusive language? Well, yes, for this trip anyway, but we'll get back to that. They eventually made their way to Florida, making it as far as the St. John River flowing into modern day Jacksonville, and then St. Augustine. The mission was very fruitful and John's journals were edited by Collinson and became well regarded. The King's Botanist had made his first and last extensive expedition. John returned to Philadelphia by boat from St. Augustine the following March. He had been away from home for 10 months. Somewhat sick and beaten down, John was urged to end his collecting outings by Collinson and others. Here's Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin: [50:31] “My dear old friend, I hope your health continues as mine does hitherto, but I wish you would now decline your long and dangerous peregrinations in search of your plants, and remain safe and quiet at home, employing your leisure hours and work that is much wanted and which no one besides is so capable performing.” Doug Still: [50:52] Billy decided to stay on in Florida to begin a plantation, which was a miserable failure. But a few years later, he resumed his botanical and scientific explorations of Georgia and Florida, picking up where his father left off with service to wealthy British patrons. The baton had been passed, and Billy never forgot that beautiful tree near the Alatamaha. He revisited the tree several times, once in 1773, and again in 1776. It is possible he made more visits. It is uncertain when exactly he took seeds or a live specimen to Kingsessing to be planted in Bartram's garden. William Bartram often confused his dates. He sometimes conflated his trips when he wrote about them in his famous 1791 work, travels through North and South Carolina, Georgia, and East and West Florida. But here's his description of a return trip to find that elegant little tree. William Bartram: [51:49] “After my return from the Creek Nation, I employed myself during the spring and forepart of summer in revisiting the several districts in Georgia and the east borders of Florida, where I had noted the most curious subjects, collecting them together and shipping them off to England. I had the opportunity of observing the new flowering shrub resembling the Gordonia in perfect bloom, as well as bearing ripe fruit. It is a flowering tree of the first order for beauty and fragrance of blossoms. The tree grows 15 ft or 20 ft high, branching alternately. The leaves are oblong, broadest towards their extremities and terminate with an acute point, which is generally a little reflexed. The flowers are very large, expand themselves perfectly, are of a snow-white color and ornamented with a crown or tassel of gold colored refulgent stamina in their center. This very curious tree was first taken notice of about 10 or 12 years ago at this place, when I attended my father, John Bartram, on a botanical excursion. But it being late in the autumn, we could form no opinion to what class or tribe it belonged. We never saw it grow in any other place, nor have I ever since seen it growing wild. In all my travels. At this place, there are two or three acres of ground where it grows plentifully.” Doug Still: [53:16] William was collecting seeds and shipping them to Dr. John Fothergill, his father's former patron, and now his own. British gardening records at the Royal Botanic Garden at Kew suggest Franklinia was introduced to cultivation in 1774, but the dates are uncertain. After growing the tree in Bartram's Garden, William made the first extraordinary botanical drawing of a branch of the tree in full flower, which is now housed in the Natural History Museum in London. In 1785, it was determined by botanists in Europe that, indeed, this was a new species. William Bartram made sure to name it after their close friend and lifelong patron, Benjamin Franklin. John Bartram passed away in 1777, but he would have been very pleased. A full, scholarly and entertaining account of how the trees botanical recognition unfolded between both continents can be found in Joel Fry's seminal publications on the subject. When future visits were made by William and others to the lowlands near the Alatamaha River in the early 18th century, the Franklinia was nowhere to be found. It was gone. Since this is the only place in the world where it was ever found, it was that horrible E word - extinct - in the wild. So, what happened? Tom Reber: [54:36] Yes. So, this is one of the mysteries. A few different conspiracy theories crop up in the next 125, 150 years or so. Doug Still: [54:46] Like, what would be one conspiracy theory? Tom Reber: [54:48] So, one of them that I hear is that diseases brought in with cotton plants for the plantations in the southern United States may have decimated the native populations of Franklinia. I don't believe that, actually, because we don't see any transmission of diseases specific to cotton to Franklinia today. There is another theory that just land clearing, eventually - they cut through all of the stands that were out in the wild. I also don't believe that, because to do that, you would have to clear cut so much. While the trees of North America were virtually entirely clear cut in the 19th century, that wasn't happening in the same way in the 1700s and 18th century. Doug Still: [55:33] Right. Tom Reber: [55:35] The thing that I think is more plausible here, is that forest thinning with clearing land for plantations ended up putting Franklinia stands into a much higher temperature root zone, and that there was much more traffic going through those areas and these plants absolutely despise compaction. Doug Still: [55:58] It's very sensitive. Tom Reber: [56:00] It's incredibly sensitive. They're very shallow rooted. Doug Still: [56:03] So, without the Bartram’s, no Franklinia would exist today. Tom Reber: [56:07] So, because it's never rediscovered in the wild, anything that's in cultivation came from the nursery it was cultivated at. This is the nursery. Bartram's Garden is the nursery where Franklinia was cultivated and distributed from. But every Franklinia that exists today can trace its lineage back to this site because of that. Doug Still: [56:27] I just wonder if there's anyone out there dreaming that there might still be one out there, or some out there. Tom Reber: [56:33] There definitely are people who dream and hope that one day, they may find Franklinia in the wild again. Doug Still: [56:40] The garden has really made an effort to extend out into the neighboring community. Can you tell me about that? Tom Reber: [56:46] It has. So, in the modern history of Bartram's Garden as an organization, much of the John Bartram Association focus has been on the Bartram history, specifically John, a little bit more William, but not even so much Ann. And in the last, I'd say, 12 years or so with our current director, Maitreyi Roy, we've made significant efforts to reverse that because the effect of that over decades has been that this has really been treated as a museum, and an insular place, and as a place that people will seek out from outside of our neighborhood. We've wanted to change that around here because of the iniquities and injustices that are at our doorstep, and are our neighborhood and our neighbors. Doug Still: [57:38] It might be the only chance to see real green in the neighborhood. Tom Reber: [57:42] Definitely. Especially with, as were talking before, less than 1% canopy tree coverage here. We're the only green space park asset for Fairmount Park in southwest Philly. There are other rec centers in southwest Philly, but you have to go to west Philly or south Philly or down to the airport to the John Heinz Wildlife Refuge in order to get this type of green space. So, we are the backyard for our immediate neighbors. Doug Still: [58:11] So important. Tom Reber: [58:12] Which is vitally important. We prize not just being that sanctuary and open space to come visit and get away from the daily grind and the day to day, but also to offer programming and education, and do it in such a way that it's free and open for all. Or, if it's not free, that there is absolutely affordability to it, where access is available to anybody who's seeking it and wants to be here. Doug Still: [58:42] Are there John and William Bartram’s societies or research groups? What is the legacy of John and William Bartram? Tom Reber: [58:52] So, the quick answer on groups, is that, yes, there are a number of John and William Bartram groups, notably down in the southeastern United States. There is the John Bartram or the William Bartram trail. There's a William Bartram trail conference every year that is about plant exploration and particularly, North American plant material. There are other researchers, really, worldwide who focus specifically on John or William Bartram. Doug Still: [59:23] When you're working in this historic garden and your thoughts go to the Bartram’s, what do you think about? Tom Reber: [59:29] Oh, that's a good question. I think about the joy of the natural world, the joy of plants. But it's not just plants, it's flora and fauna. But I think about this interest in exploring the unknown and discovering things that are new to you, reframing your outlook on the world, and how nature can help us see beyond our own blinders. That's really, I think, what I end up getting to with both John and William here. Doug Still: [01:00:07] In a way that's come full circle in what the garden's doing now. Tom Reber: [01:00:10] It very much has, because that narrative is absolutely core to our-- really, I will call it the social justice aspect of our organization. Doug Still: [01:00:22] Why is the Franklinia tree important now? What does it inspire in people? Tom Reber: [01:00:28] It is a really good story. It's a native extinct tree. It's a tree that doesn't want to grow but can be grown. It blooms at an odd time of year. It's a horticulturist's tree. It's a challenge. Doug Still: [01:00:47] Right. Tom Reber: [01:00:47] That's what Franklinia offers to people. So, you get this tree with a really interesting story that's beautiful, but that also has a name and lineage that is easy to tie to the history of the United States itself too. Doug Still: [01:01:04] Tom, thanks so much for spending time with me in the garden, and showing me Bartram's world and your world. Tom Reber: [01:01:11] It's been wonderful to sit here in front of the tree and talk about all of this today, Doug. Doug Still: [01:01:16] Thanks. You're the best. Tom Reber: [01:01:17] Likewise. Doug Still: [01:01:18] The Franklin tree at Bartram's garden is rare and lovely. Some would even say, it's an attention getter. But it's the backstory that really makes it special, and its connection to the lives of the original owners of the historic property where it stands. It satisfies that botanist fantasy I have in me, if only vicariously, through the Bartram’s. It's a symbol that urges us to keep being curious and to keep learning about things, not only far away, but right before our eyes. [harpsichord music] Thank you, tree lovers, for joining me to find the path that led to the Franklin tree. A warm thanks to Tom Reber for hosting me at Bartram's Garden and telling the story. I'd also like to thank my talented readers for bringing the characters' voices to life: Nigel Holmes, Mike Savard, Mike Sweney and Josh Abrams. The delightful 18th century harpsichord music was played by Miyuki Tsurutani. I had a ball recording it with you. The show's theme music is by Dee Lee. I'll post pictures of the Franklin Tree in Bartram's Garden on Facebook and Instagram. The show website is thisoldtree.show, where you can find more information in the show transcript. I'm Doug Still, and you've been listening to This Old Tree. Until next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Tree That Owns Itself - Transcript Season 2, Episode 6 April 28, 2024 Doug Still: [00:01] You're listening to This Old Tree, the show about heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug Still. Tucked away on a charming residential street in Athens, Georgia, at the top of a hill, just a block or two away from the University of Georgia campus, stands a stately white oak tree. It's a street tree, but it's not in the usual place between the curb and the sidewalk. It has its own circular planting bed that juts out into the narrow street, surrounded by eight or nine granite posts connected with a chain. If you didn't know its history, you might just give it an extra glance as you drove by, as it's one of many old trees in a very leafy neighborhood, but scores of tourists visit it every year. The tree is literally a roadside attraction. On the “Visit Athens” website it's included as one of the 10 things to see upon your first visit to the city, listed right after the Georgia Museum of Art and before the iconic UGA Arch. Why? One of the tree's immediate neighbors, Pat McAlexander explains. Pat McAlexander: [01:12] Well, I suppose it's one of their sites that they put in all the publicity, along with the famous houses, old houses and government buildings. People seem to really like it. A lot of cities have old houses, but how many have a tree that owns itself? Doug Still: [01:29] That's right. This is The Tree That Owns Itself. What and how you might ask? Well, in this episode, we'll find out all about the tree and its legend from two people who know: Athens-Clarke County Community Forestry Coordinator, Mateo Fennell, as well as longtime neighbor, Pat McAlexander, who we've just met. I'll also interview James Komen, a consulting arborist and expert in tree law and related ownership issues. Because you have to wonder, can a tree own itself? Who owns a tree and what does that even mean? And ultimately, we'll get at what it is about this tree's independent ownership status that has captured the attention of so many people for more than a hundred years - and their hearts too. Coming up, the tree that owns itself. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:43] You may have heard about The Tree That Owns Itself before because it's one of those things that occasionally goes viral online, and it's been written about a lot, news sites, travel blogs, public radio. The tree needs a PR agent. It was even once featured on Ripley's Believe It or Not. It somehow titillates people. But I thought I'd blow past Wikipedia and the Google searches and go directly to the person who knows the most about the tree and is also the person who cares for it. Meet Mateo Fennell. Mateo Fennell: [03:15] I am the community Forestry Coordinator for Athens-Clarke County. I've been here a little less than a year, but my position is essentially a liaison for all departments in the government of Athens-Clarke County for all things tree related. So, I make a lot of decisions about trees, or at least county owned trees. Doug Still: [03:37] So, regarding The Tree That Owns Itself , you've only come to it recently, then, but you're in charge of it? Mateo Fennell: [03:43] Yeah. It's considered within the county right of way, so it is under my purview. We take care of it as if it is a county tree, but we do spend a considerable amount more on that tree than any other right of way tree. Doug Still: [04:04] Yeah. You've been doing a lot of original research on that tree and looking at primary documents. What is the famous legend? Mateo Fennell: [04:13] The legend, as it was recounted to me when I came to UGA my freshman year, was that - I actually lived about 2,000ft away from the tree my freshman year at Creswell. So, I was able to walk down to the tree from my dorm room. I did that in the first week of going to school there, because I had always heard about it and I said, “Well, I've got to pay my respects.” I'm a tree lover and went there really quickly. But the story, as it was given to me, as it's given to everyone, is that William Jackson loved the tree. He grew up with this tree. When he was getting older, he decided that he couldn't bear the thought of it being torn down or destroyed in the future. So, he deeded the tree to itself and all the land 8ft around it. And that's the story that we all go by. Doug Still: [05:06] A little pause here. Jackson created and granted a deed for the tree with the tree as the grantee! This took place in 1832, when he sold his house. In fact, there is a stone tablet under the tree that quotes from the supposed deed. It says, “For and in consideration of the great love I bear this tree and the great desire I have for its protection for all time, I convey entire possession of itself and all land within eight feet of the tree on all sides,” William H Jackson. According to Mateo, he came from an influential and well-known family at the time. Mateo Fennell: [05:46] Very well known. Yeah, the Jackson family, when I've gone back to look at deeds, the Jackson name is just all over Athens-Clarke County. But his father was a soldier, a patriot in the Revolutionary War. His father ended up becoming the Governor of Georgia, I believe. Jackson's uncle was faculty at UGA. He and his brother were in the first graduating class of the University of Georgia. That would have been in 1804. And then Jackson himself was on the Board of Trustees for the University of Georgia for almost 40 years. Doug Still: [06:30] I asked Mateo how we know about the story, about the tree's own ownership. When was the story first published? Mateo Fennell: [06:37] It would have been in 1890. Doug Still: [06:40] Much later. Mateo Fennell: [06:41] Yeah. Much, much later. So, 1890 is the first time we have a written record of it of someone describing it. There's a great line in it, actually. It says, “There are only a few in the city who know it, as it was done so long ago as to pass out of the recollection of nearly all.” Doug Still: [07:03] So, there was some oral tradition, according to that article. Mateo Fennell: [07:07] Yeah. Doug Still: [07:08] He read a bit from the piece printed on the front page of the Athens Weekly Banner on August 12th, 1890. Mateo Fennell: [07:15] “This majestic oak cannot be touched against its will, but the trouble is to ascertain what its will may be. The facts, as told us, are these. Way back in the first part of this century, the land containing the tree and that taking in good part of the vicinity, was owned by Col. William H. Jackson. Col. Jackson had watched the tree grow from his childhood and grew to love it almost as he would a human. Its luxuriant foliage and sturdy limbs had often protected him from the heavy rains, and out of its highest branches lie had many a time gotten the eggs of the feathered songsters. He watched its growth, and when, on reaching a ripe old age, he saw the tree standing in its magnificent proportions. He was pained to think that after his death, it would fall into the hands of those who might destroy it.” Doug Still: [08:10] Very artfully written. Mateo Fennell: [08:13] Yeah, it's beautiful. I'll read a little bit more. The original lines are great. So, “The tree in question is the magnificent oak in front of the residence of Major Stanley. It seems to stand straighter and hold its head more highly and proudly, as if it knew that it ranked above the common trees of the world, which are the slaves of humans and can be cut down and burned at the will of their owners.” Doug Still: [08:43] Wow. I'm not sure I like that quote. It's a little tough. Mateo Fennell: [08:47] It's a weird one. Doug Still: [08:48] The irony wasn't lost on us that, if true, the story took place during a time, obviously, when many people couldn't own themselves during the era of slavery. In my research, I found this painful reminder was brought up by a local historian quoted in his story on Georgia public broadcasting. But the more we got into it, Mateo described the cracks in the overall story. Did he grow up next to the tree? Mateo Fennell: [09:16] No. He would have been born in Savannah, and then he came to UGA or came to Athens probably 1800, and then was in school until 1804. And then after they graduated, he left. He did come back to Athens. Let's see-- So, yeah, Jackson joined the Board of Trustees in early 1820s, and he would have moved to Athens probably around 1828. Doug Still: [09:47] Got it. So, he was an adult when he was living or owned the tree. Mateo Fennell: [09:53] Correct. Yeah, he would have been in his 20s, 30s. Or, his home was sold to Malthus Ward in 1832. And at that point, Jackson moved to East Athens, where he wanted to be a planter, and he got somewhere over 600 acres in East Athens. Doug Still: [10:12] So, he was a farmer. Mateo Fennell: [10:14] Yeah, probably not that good of one. He ended up losing his land in the early 1840s. The bank repossessed it. And at that time, it's safe to assume that he would have moved to be with his son in Macon, Georgia. He wasn't found in any of the census data in Athens after that date. Doug Still: [10:39] Mateo mentioned the new owner of the property on Dearing Street in Athens, one Malthus Ward. So, William H. Jackson sold the property to Ward in 1832, right? Mateo Fennell: [10:52] Not technically. He sold the home. He and his father-in-law built the home that Malthus Ward lived in. So, 126 Dearing Street was the home that Jackson was living in with his wife, Mildred, and her father, Mr. Cobb. They built that home. There must have been some agreement with the University of Georgia, because the land was never purchased by Jackson. It was only the house, because when Ward buys the property, he buys it from the University of Georgia. In that deed, it said that he gives $1,200 to Jackson for the building. This whole area was part of what was called The Millage…oh, gosh, The Millage Endowment. It was a large tract of land that was given to the University of Georgia, and then they were able to sell land over the years to make money. So, these two lots that were sold to Malthus Ward were still owned by the University of Georgia. Just the home was owned by Jackson. Doug Still: [12:09] Yikes. Okay. So, Jackson didn't grow up next to the tree that owns itself, didn't own the land. Actually, he lived across the street. The tree is at 125 Dearing Street and he lived at 126 Dearing. Mateo Fennell: [12:23] Yeah, he didn't grow up near the tree. [laughter] He didn't even own the land that the tree was on. Doug Still: [12:28] Right. Has anyone ever seen this deed? Mateo Fennell: [12:31] No. No one's ever seen the deed, because usually deeds weren't kept in the city government. But at the same time, I can find the deed from 1832, when Malthus Ward buys it from UGA. No one's ever found a deed about the tree that owns itself. Doug Still: [12:48] Our attention swung back to that 1890 newspaper article, now with some doubtful eyes. Who wrote that article? Mateo Fennell: [12:57] It's unsigned, but the editor of the paper at the time would be Larry Gantt. That's G-A-N-T-T. He was the editor for quite some time of that paper. At that time, it was called the Athens Weekly Banner. Doug Still: [13:16] Gotcha. So, we don't really know who wrote it. It could be that the editor wrote it? Mateo Fennell: [13:21] It could be. Doug Still: [13:22] Mateo sent me a digital copy of the original newspaper that had this unusual tree story on the front page. Surrounding it were some straight news stories from Washington, D.C. and other places. It also had articles of local interest with breathless accounts of “startling news.” On the front page you can read about how a brave woman, Mrs. Bird, rescues her boy at Tallulah after he fell into a fountain; or, bound and gagged, Miss Nellie O'Brien’s story of an adventure with a burglar; or, an interesting meeting now in progress in Watkinsville, where deep interest was awakened due to two evangelists from California who had made numerous conversions. So, it's not a stretch to say that there may have been a healthy dose of sensationalism to help sell newspapers. Flash forward to 1962, when the story of the tree and its potential sources was thoughtfully investigated by a professor and chair of the history department at UGA, E. M. Coulter. He wrote about it in the Georgia Historical Quarterly, for which he was the editor for nearly 50 years. Mateo Fennell: [14:36] The seminal article, the seminal piece on The Tree That Owns Itself is by a gentleman named Coulter back in the 1960s. He goes through two possibilities. One, it's Jackson, and then the other is that it was Gantt or somebody putting that story in, somebody making that story up. Doug Still: [14:56] Gotcha. You got that from Coulter's article. Mateo Fennell: [14:58] I don't know if he's the earliest to suggest that, but he is probably the biggest name. He has the most bonafides. People believe him, because he was a historian at UGA. Doug Still: [15:11] Back again to Gantt’s 1890 piece. Why would that article have been written about the tree at that time? Any guesses? Mateo Fennell: [15:21] My guess would be that they had talked about opening up Finley Street and Dearing Street to create a road. Doug Still: [15:32] We're going to take a short break. When we return, we explore this other idea. Maybe the story of the grand old white oak owning itself came about, because someone wanted to protect it from that all too common threat to street trees - road construction. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Mateo Fennell: [16:14] Coulter believed that it was probably in response to the impending development. Yeah. He says that potentially, it was a story made up or to keep Finley Street from being developed. Doug Still: [16:33] You mentioned some roadmaps from the 1850s that you found. Mateo Fennell: [16:37] Yeah. The earliest map I found was in 1852. And in 1852, they drew the road lines in. All of those lines are straight lines. It's really simple for a surveyor to do those straight lines. There is no distinction or weird cutout to try and save a tree. They're all just straight lines. And that map would have been released when Malthus Ward was there on that property. Doug Still: [17:09] Malthus Ward. Can you tell me about Malthus Ward? Mateo Fennell: [17:12] Oh, wow. Malthus Ward, he's a good story. Malthus Ward grew up in the north. He was a frontier doctor and ended up becoming a professor of natural history for the University of Georgia. Actually, let me start somewhere else. Doug Still: [17:35] Okay. Mateo Fennell: [17:35] So, when I started my position as the community forester, the first few weeks of that, of my position, I decided to go pay my respects to the tree that owns itself, as one does. Doug Still: [17:48] Right. Mateo Fennell: [17:50] So, I was standing there looking at the tree and I turned around. When I turned around, I saw a ginkgo tree that absolutely-- it stupefied me. It was the biggest ginkgo tree I have ever seen, and immediately had to go talk to whoever owned that house. Went and talked to Miss Harris, who lives there in what was Jackson's home and Malthus Ward's home. She told me about Malthus Ward. It was the first time I had ever heard about him and sent me down the rabbit hole, the Ward rabbit hole. When I learned that he planted this ginkgo tree in the mid-1800s, it's actually the third oldest ginkgo tree in North America. Doug Still: [18:41] Wow. Must be impressive. Mateo Fennell: [18:43] Oh, it's gorgeous. Actually, it had a large top come out this last summer after a big windstorm, but it's still standing. Ginkgos do a very good job of retrenching, so we have high hopes for it. But that is what got me started on Ward or interested in Ward. Ward, when he came to UGA, they ended up buying him. Well, he bought eight acres, and four acres would have been north of Dearing Street, and four acres would have been south of Dearing Street. Right in between those two parcels is the tree that owns itself. Doug Still: [19:28] Mm-hmm. Mateo Fennell: [19:29] Later on, UGA bought or gave him a botanical gardens. There is some argument as to where that botanical gardens was. Doug Still: [19:41] Okay. So, was he a plantsman? Mateo Fennell: [19:44] He was a medical doctor. He was a botanist. He taught natural history. So, that would have been geology, chemistry, botany, all of that. So, he was kind of a renaissance man. Doug Still: [19:59] So, he planted that amazing ginkgo tree. Mateo Fennell: [20:02] He did. He also planted cuttings from an elm tree that was standing over George Washington when he took control over the army in 1773. Doug Still: [20:18] Sure. The Washington- Mateo Fennell: [20:20] The Washington Elm. Yeah. Doug Still: [20:21] -Elm. Was in Cambridge. Mateo Fennell: [20:24] Yeah, in Cambridge. Yup. He had cuttings of it. I think it was standing beside the house up until 2012. I can see it on Google Street view. Doug Still: [20:33] Wow. Mateo Fennell: [20:34] But Ward was definitely a purveyor of plants. Like, he had over 2,000 species of plants in the botanical gardens. Doug Still: [20:46] So he was a collector. He planted. He was the one probably that loved that tree. Mateo Fennell: [20:52] He definitely would have loved the tree, standing out in front of his house. It was a stately tree, even when he was alive. He would have, I think, really appreciated that tree just being a tree person himself. Now, UGA ended up selling the botanical gardens. They came on some hard times. Malthus Ward was actually released from his position at the university in 1842. So, he was no longer a professor. That would have been 10 years after he bought the property. Then in 1857, they sold the botanical gardens. In the botanical gardens, when they sold that, they used those proceeds to buy the famous University of Georgia Arches, which is the symbol of the university now. Doug Still: [21:47] So, was Malthus still in town after that, when they started building the roads? What are the latest dates you have for Malthus Ward? Mateo Fennell: [21:56] Malthus Ward died right at the end of the Civil War. So, 1866. So, he had lived there in front of the tree up until he died. And then a few years later, his daughter, Mary Ward, is the executrix of his will, and she sells the property. Doug Still: [22:20] How could we not offer some conjecture? What would Ward have thought of the road design crisscrossing his properties? Mateo Fennell: [22:28] I think he would have seen the road, the proposed road, go in and not have been happy knowing that, obviously, that road is slated to go directly through the tree. Doug Still: [22:41] When did the roads go in? Mateo Fennell: [22:43] That was something that-- Coulter, when he wrote about this in the 1960, he didn't really have a good understanding of. Let's go back. So, he wasn't sure of when it went in. Now we can see that even up until 1890, the road had not been cut in. At the time of the first article talking about The Tree That Owns Itself , we don't think that the road had been cut in at that point. We think that there would have been some contention about it at that time. Doug Still: [23:17] Could someone have influenced Gantt in 1890 to write the article about the tree in order to save it from the impending street construction? Who would it have been? Ward would have been a likely candidate, but he had been dead for 24 years. Mateo has a new theory. What's your hunch? Mateo Fennell: [23:35] When I started reading about it and I read about Dr. Ward, my initial thought stems from a question that was asked in an article a long time ago is, “Why Jackson? Why are people ascribing this to Jackson?” I don't think it was Jackson who grew up under this tree, then loved it and then tried to save it. I think it was Mary Ward. Doug Still: [24:00] Mary Ward? Mateo Fennell: [24:01] Mary Ward, she was born in 1830. She comes down to Athens, Georgia, in 1832. So, she's two years old. Her earliest memories were probably of this tree. Doug Still: [24:13] I see. Mateo Fennell: [24:15] UGA fires or releases Dr. Ward in early 1840s. I don't think he was especially liked. They're selling his botanical gardens in the 1850s. I think Ward may have been bitter. “Here, you've released me. You're not going to take me back. You're going to sell my botanical gardens, which I've put a lot of my effort into. Well, you can do that. You can take that, but you're not taking this tree. I'm going to figure it out.” Doug Still: [24:47] So, why do you think Mary had something to do with it? Mateo Fennell: [24:49] She was the one selling that property. She was the executrix of the will. She grew up with that tree. She knew that there was proposed development going through that tree. I think when she was selling that property would have been a really good time to drop a little myth, a little legend. Hey-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [25:12] That's an interesting story. Mateo Fennell: [25:14] So, I think that's a perfect time for this story to start. “Well, hey, we're selling you this property, but there's no deed to it. But there was a deed. Jackson, he actually deeded that tree to itself.” Just drops it in there and maybe it marinates for 20 years. I think that Jackson was useful. He's the son of a revolutionary war hero. He is respected. If the dying wishes of Jackson aren't going to be respectable, then no one's are going to be respected. But it strikes me as him being useful, being someone that no one's going to question. He lives in Macon at this point. He's four days away. Doug Still: [26:01] So, if Mary Ward had said that her dad deeded the tree to itself, it would have seemed fake, but bringing Jackson in gave it some legitimacy. Mateo Fennell: [26:11] Definitely. Yeah. Invoking the name of Jackson would have been huge. Doug Still: [26:15] One question. I know this is conjecture, but why do you think then the story popped up in the newspaper in 1890? Mateo Fennell: [26:24] I think there was probably a renewed push for development there. The home that's directly across from the tree that owns itself would have been put in around 1893. So, I think there was mounting pressure to talk about it, because homes were going in and they were reaching this tipping point where some decision had to be made about the tree. Doug Still: [26:51] This supremely creative effort to preserve a tree got me thinking. Can a tree own itself? I found the answer to this question, pretty quickly, if you simply adhere to the principles of common law. So, the recipient of property, in this case, the property is the tree and the land around it, must have the legal capacity to receive it. A tree is not a legal person. It doesn't have personhood in the eyes of our legal system. So, the tree cannot accept the receipt of property. Okay, that may be true, but it's pretty boring. I'll swing back to some newer views on that later. There's a more interesting question to ask, in my opinion, relevant to property owners and tree lovers everywhere. If a tree can't own itself, then who owns a tree? The answer is not always as simple as it may seem, and the issue has been at the center of many intense, passionate disputes for as long as people have been owning property. To tackle this question, I had the pleasure of speaking with James Komen. James is a board-certified master arborist, a registered consulting arborist, and a licensed California attorney. His research is focused on tree law cases from around the United States, which he has written and spoken about extensively. James, welcome to the show. James Komen: [28:11] Hi. Thanks for having me. Doug Still: [28:13] You are in California. Had you heard about the tree that owned itself before I invited you onto the show? James Komen: [28:19] I had heard about it. We actually talked about it a little bit in law school. Doug Still: [28:24] Really? James Komen: [28:24] We were just talking about property rights, and that idea came up. Doug Still: [28:29] Well, my questions for you are much more general in nature. Broadly speaking, in the United States, are trees owned and how is that determined? James Komen: [28:38] Well, generally speaking, trees are fixtures on the land. They're part of the soil. And so, they're thought of as real property. When you buy and sell the land on which the trees are growing, then you're also buying and selling whatever is fixed to that land, which could include houses or driveways or trees. Doug Still: [29:00] Got it. As we both know, trees are natural beings and don't respect property lines. When branches and roots reach over and into the neighbor's property, conflicts can arise. Who is responsible for the tree's maintenance? James Komen: [29:15] Well, that actually depends. That's quite a big question. What I won't do is I won't answer that directly, but what I can do is I can give you some examples and some things that have been considered when answering that question under specific circumstances. Doug Still: [29:33] Okay. James Komen: [29:34] So, one line of question would be, was it planted or was it naturally growing? Some trees, in some cases were planted. And then the person that planted the tree, whether it's the owner of the property at the time or their prior owner that they bought from. They put in motion something that ultimately led to harm to the neighborhood. In those cases, the courts have said that it was the responsibility of the tree owner to take action. Doug Still: [30:05] Interesting. James Komen: [30:06] In contrast, you might have a tree that was naturally growing, one that just volunteered on its own out of natural causes. And in some jurisdictions, like in Virginia, there's no liability for natural conditions of the land. Doug Still: [30:20] Would it be hard to prove sometimes that the homeowner planted a tree or didn't plant a tree? James Komen: [30:26] In fact, that's one of the reasons why many jurisdictions don't like this distinction of natural versus unnatural conditions of the land for determining responsibility for the tree. So, other jurisdictions have looked to other questions to answer that issue of who's responsible for the tree. Another line of analysis would be whether the tree is a nuisance or a non-nuisance. A nuisance is a substantial and unreasonable interference with the use of someone else's land. So, it might be a bad smell or a bad vibration or bad noise. But it could also be undue risk posed by a tree, or it could be undue litter created by a tree. Doug Still: [31:11] Would falling leaves count as undue litter? James Komen: [31:14] Well, it depends. [Doug laughs] There are some jurisdictions, specifically Hawaii and the States, that have adopted the Hawaii rule, that say leaf drop is not a nuisance as a matter of law. However, there have been some cases where, for example, eucalyptus bark shedding from the trees has been considered a nuisance. But the question of whether leaf drop is a nuisance can't be answered in the abstract. It's always going to turn on the facts of a particular case. Because when we talk about nuisance, we're always talking about balancing the rights of two adjoining landowners, one person who has the interest in having a clean property and the other one having an interest in maintaining the tree. There's necessarily going to be a conflict which goes back to the beginning of that definition, which is, what is a substantial and unreasonable interference with that right. Perhaps, it's not unreasonable to allow trees to drop leaves. After all, there's lots of trees in the neighborhood, and they drop leaves all the time. And of course, we're all expected to rake them up. Doug Still: [32:18] I just say, welcome to New England. We rake our leaves. James Komen: [32:21] But on the other hand, there have also been cases where someone says, “No, this is actually above and beyond that which would be tolerable by an ordinary property owner in the neighborhood.” They've made persuasive cases, why the tree is a nuisance, whether it's leaf drop or undue risk or branch failure, all of those could be an impairment of the neighboring property owner's right to use his own property in peace. Doug Still: [32:48] I know things get more complicated from there. You've spoken and written about this. What if the trunk of the tree straddles the property line? Who owns it then, and how is that determined? James Komen: [33:00] Well, again, it depends. There's actually a number of different theories for how to deal with trees on boundary lines, and it varies by jurisdiction and also has varied based on the facts of the cases too. I'll just give you a couple of quick examples. In Illinois, there's this case, Ridge v. Blaha. And it said that if any portion of the trunk crosses the property line, even if it's just an inch, then the tree is co-owned. So, I've termed that in my writings, “absolute” co-ownership of the tree, saying that it's very favorable to co-ownership. Another one, which is the opposite, which is, I've termed “limited” co-ownership theory. That's demonstrated by the Colorado Supreme Court case of Love v. Klosky in 2018, so a fairly recent case. That is very unfavorable to co-ownership. And it basically says if the tree began one side, it belongs to that owner. It does not change ownership simply because it grew across the property line. Another theory, I've termed the “presumption” theory, where if the boundary line passes through the trunk of the tree, we presume that it's co-owned, but that presumption can be rebutted. In other words, more facts can be brought in that show that actually the tree began one side, and it's actually solely owned by the owner of the land where the tree began. That was illustrated in a Louisiana case, Jack v. Successions of Albert. And then the last one that I wanted to share with you is unique to Georgia, actually. They've termed it the “party wall” theory. It's similar to the proportionate co-ownership, where we say you own the portion of the tree that's over your side. But instead of the percentage of the whole tree that you own, say, a 50% interest in the tree, a 30% interest in the tree, rather you actually own the half that is on your side, and the neighbor owns his half of the tree that's on his side of the line. Doug Still: [35:03] Well, this doesn't make for good arboriculture, in my opinion, because if someone says, “Well, this half is my part of the tree, I can just shear the branches up, cause I don't like them.” James Komen: [35:14] Well, yes and no. There's some offset that helps protect the interests of the neighbor. Not only do you own your half and the other guy owns his half, but both property owners own something called an easement of support from the other. So, if you do something to harm the neighboring property owner's right to maintain his half of the tree, well, then you still harmed his property interests. Doug Still: [35:41] I've always told people in the past, when this comes up. Speak to your neighbor, or communicate with your neighbor or it's a courtesy before you do anything to talk it over. But I feel like we're getting away from that more and more these days. James Komen: [35:56] What topic does come up in pretty much every jurisdiction that I've read cases is something called the “right of self-help.” That's actually different than ownership of the tree. It's possible that a tree can be owned by the neighbor, but have branches that reach into your property. And then the question is, do you have the right to cut those branches back to the property line? In some jurisdictions, they say you have the absolute right. In some cases, it's a qualified right, you have the right to cut back so long as you don't hurt the tree or impair the interest of the actual tree owner. So, I won't opine on what is or is not the law in any given jurisdiction. But those theories are out there and it's definitely active discussion in these tree law cases. Doug Still: [36:41] Yeah. Definitely gets very complicated. Some of your research looked into the history of tree ownership. It's very interesting. Even back before the birth of our nation, what were a couple of those early sources, and what did they have to say about joint ownership of trees? James Komen: [36:58] Yeah, as long as people have owned property and had trees on it, people have been fighting over them. But there's two cases that stick out in my mind, and they're both old English cases. The first one was a 1620s case called Masters v. Pollie, and the other one was a 1697 case called Waterman v. Soper. So, in Masters, the court held that the tree belongs to the owner of the land where the tree was planted. So, whoever planted the tree, it doesn't matter whether it grows across the line, it stays owned by that property owner, which is very similar to that Love v. Klosky case in Colorado. They actually cited that case in the decision. The Waterman v. Soper is very different. What they held was that the tree is co-owned if the roots grow into the neighboring property. The theory is the tree is deriving some of its nourishment from both properties, so the tree ought to be co-owned by both property owners. Doug Still: [38:03] After a quick break, I asked James Komen about the reach cities and towns have into protecting old trees, even if they are on private property, as well as some proposed new ideas that stretch the notion of ownership. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] A property owner may be responsible for their tree, but we've moved into an era when the property owner may be required to protect or preserve the tree by their local jurisdiction. This is usually found in zoning ordinances or perhaps, in the local tree ordinance. Could you describe what you're seeing in this regard in California? James Komen: [38:58] Well, I work in the Los Angeles area. There's quite a lot of cities within driving distance of my place of work. Many of these cities have their own flavor of a tree protection ordinance. Some tree protection ordinances just protect street trees, trees growing in the public right of way along the street. Some tree protection ordinances protect certain heritage trees. Some protect trees on private property. And of those, some will protect just a list, say, six or seven species of a certain size. And others will protect all trees of all species of a certain size, except a list of unprotected trees. So, there's many different flavors of tree protection ordinances that are out there that I've experienced in my work in the LA area. Doug Still: [39:50] Here in Providence, we have a “significant tree regulation,” that protects trees, even if they're on private property, that are 32 inches in diameter or greater, DBH. I was in charge of enforcing it. I think overall, while it had a few issues, it was effective in at least making the removal of very large trees a more thoughtful process. What is the reason for tree protection ordinances in general, do you think, and what is the main objection? James Komen: [40:26] Well, I can start with the main objection, and it's interfering with property rights. Some people say, it's my property. I should be able to do what I want with it. I don't want the government telling me what I can and can't do with my own property. That's the objection that comes up all the time. But the benefits provided by trees that are either stated or even unstated reasons for passing these ordinances can vary. It's very common. We'll see things like aesthetics. The trees make our town more beautiful or shade. It makes our town cooler in the summertime. But also, there's some element of historic preservation. The trees represent a piece of history that transcends the human lifespan. And so, much like we try to preserve old structures that represent a piece of our past, so too, we try to preserve trees. Even beyond that, I've seen ordinances that specifically say, we're protecting the trees to prevent the deleterious effects of erosion and dust or excessive tree removal can lead to diminished property values, saying that we're protecting everybody else's interests in their property by preserving the trees on one person's property. There's been a number of different reasons given for tree protection ordinances, and a lot of them have been favorably looked upon by the courts that have reviewed them for validity. Doug Still: [41:55] I always explained it to people, that people determined through our political process that it was for the greater good. We have all these shared backyards. There's a big tree in someone's backyard that has been green and held birds, wildlife created screens, all of the things that a large tree can do. And if someone removes it, it really has an effect on the lives of everyone living around it. James Komen: [42:23] Now, in the past, one of theories that has been said over and over again is that the neighboring property owners who don't have a property interest in the tree. They're just merely incidental beneficiaries. They have no enforceable rights in these trees. The true owner is the person who owns the land where the tree is growing, and they can do as they please with the tree. But I think that there's actually been a shift lately. I can think of one unpublished California case, where there was a tree protection ordinance, and the tree owner decided that he wanted to chop down his tree anyway, and the local government didn't do anything about it. So, the neighbor took things into his own hands, and sued the tree owner cutter and said, “You violated the tree protection ordinance and you cut down that tree, and that has hurt my own property values. There's a tree protection ordinance that's in place for my property values.” The tree owner says, “Oh, well, it's not your tree. You can't sue me. Go away.” And the court said, “Actually, maybe the guy does in fact have standing because of the tree protection ordinance.” So, I think that there's an unexplored avenue of possibilities where tree protection ordinances might be giving municipalities power, but also, they may be giving private property owners, the neighbors power to enforce those tree protection ordinances in their interests as well. Doug Still: [43:47] Very interesting. I hadn't thought of that. You wrote a fascinating article that I thought was really interesting when I read it. It was titled “Creating a Marketplace for Large Trees,” published in Western Arborist. But it wasn't about harvesting trees and selling wood products. You propose a way to preserve old and historic trees by creating a way for interested parties to purchase the rights to a tree from willing or indifferent property owners who might otherwise just remove the tree for whatever reason. Do I have that right, and what are you proposing? James Komen: [44:25] Well, I think you have the basic idea. But before I explain it, I want to emphasize that right now this is just theory. Doug Still: [44:33] Sure. James Komen: [44:33] I'm not aware of anyone that has actually implemented this. But I think it's worth exploring. The idea is based in the mechanics of something called a “covenant” or “servitude.” What it is, is a property owner agrees to be bound by some restriction on the use of his property. In other words, he promises to do or not do a thing. Here, we're proposing to not cut down a tree. You're giving the right to enforce that to somebody else saying, “You have the right to take a look at my tree, you have the right to climb my tree, prune my tree, whatever, and I don't have the right to chop it down.” Because there is some detriment involved, because there is some actual sacrifice on the part of the property owner, the buyer of this right, this servitude or covenant, would likely pay some amount of money. So, there'd be an exchange of money for this promise. And then when the promise is made, it wouldn't just be between those two parties like an ordinary contract, but rather it would actually get recorded onto the property itself and it would do something called run with the land, which is basically like, it's a promise that binds all future owners of the land. So, when the landowner ultimately sells his land to somebody else, that future owner, even if they don't like the tree and they want to cut down their tree, they can't because they're still bound by this remaining covenant that was put in place by the prior owner. Doug Still: [46:09] Like an easement would transfer to future property owners. James Komen: [46:13] Very similar idea. Like an easement or a view covenant where you say, I promise not to build higher than 30ft and then the uphill owner can enforce that to see over. It would be similar, except instead of saying, I won't build higher, you say, I won't chop down the tree. Doug Still: [46:28] I ended my talk with James with a question outside the law. Is there a tree that you know of and love that you would bequeath ownership unto itself, if you could? James Komen: [46:40] I really like my oak tree. My wife and I joke that we bought a tree and the house came with it. It's a 90-foot spread coast live oak. It must be 250 years old or more. Doug Still: [46:55] Wow. James Komen: [46:56] It's just got this massive spread. It covers our whole property. Our little itty-bitty house is just right underneath a portion of its canopy. So, if there were going to be one tree that I'd want to make sure withstood the test of time, I would say it would be that one. Doug Still: [47:12] Definitely. You could start a new legend. James, thanks so much for an engaging and thoughtful conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. James Komen: [47:20] Thank you, Doug. Doug Still: [47:22] The communal value of trees - ecological, aesthetic and health promoting value - has long been touted by researchers and urban foresters. The fruits of that labor are manifested in the appearance of real, enforceable legislation. It's impressive how far we've come, although laws are unevenly local, and sometimes complex to enforce and understand. But what if there was another way to go about conservation, where the issue doesn't center around the rights of people per se? Some argue that a tree or some other element of nature is capable of receiving recognized rights, and that natural things have value for their own sake, not just the value they bring to people. This is called the “Rights of Nature,” and I'd be remiss in not bringing it up. Rights of Nature argues that existing laws regulate but don't stop damage to our environment, and that environmental destruction is a moral wrong. It's a point of view beginning to gain legal traction around the world. Rights of nature laws have been passed in Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, New Zealand and India. In the United States, jurisdictions in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, California and a few other places have introduced legislation, most of which has been challenged in the courts. A thorough look into the Rights of Nature movement is worthy of an entire episode, or even a university course. But here it is in a simplified nutshell. Rather than treating nature as property under the law, rights of nature posits that nature in all its forms has the right to exist and maintain its life cycles. It's about balance in nature. Rights of nature has adopted many of the arguments of the animal rights movement, but moves beyond rights that focus on an individual - a dog or cat or pig, say - and extends these principles to rivers, mountains, and entire ecosystems. To some, natural entities are living beings imbued with a sort of animism. They have a right to a healthy existence. For many people, the rights of nature viewpoint stems from a religious or spiritual perspective with a sizable representation from indigenous advocates and communities. Some feel that natural things could be given legal personhood. After all, corporations now have standing as legal persons. Others suggest that using the word “personhood” may lead into a legal trap, and wish to offer rights to natural entities without the use of that word. The first writer to forward this idea was Christopher Stone in the Southern California Law Review in 1972. He wrote a piece called “Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights for Natural Objects.” He states that all kinds of non-human matter has come to be recognized as possessors of rights, including trusts, corporations, joint ventures and other types of partnerships, municipalities and nation states, to name a few. So, why not a river or a lake or a tree? It may seem like a jarring, out-of-the-box concept, but there is real precedent and engaging philosophical thinking to back it up. I'm not sure if Stone knew that some passionate tree lovers in Athens, Georgia were already onto this 100 years earlier. The tree that owns itself was way ahead of its time. [music] Whether a deed was actually created for the old white oak on Dearing Street, or it was simply the story of such a deed that was created, the ruse worked because the neighborhood's street pattern was eventually implemented and the tree still stands. Or, does it? Here's Pat McAlexander. Pat McAlexander: [51:02] Well, we moved in 1996. So, it's 28 years. It was really interesting when we moved in, because all of a sudden, right after we moved in, they had a birthday party for the tree. Doug Still: [00:51:14] Really? Pat McAlexander: [51:15] It was 50 years old. Now, this is not the original tree. I guess you already know the story that the original tree fell in 1942. Doug Still: [51:24] Yes. That was right around World War II. And then right after the war, a new one was planted. Pat McAlexander: [51:31] Right. And that's the one that's next door to us. Yeah. Doug Still: [51:34] Yes. Pat McAlexander: [51:35] So, this is a-- it's the son or daughter of the original tree. Doug Still: [51:39] That's right. [laughs] Pat McAlexander: [51:39] Yeah. Doug Still: [51:41] Based on reports of the tree's slow decline over time, it is likely that its roots were damaged when the streets were finally created about 1908, according to Mateo. Mateo Fennell: [51:52] Some people say that it collapsed in on itself. Some people say that it just fell over. Regardless, it came down in a large windstorm. Doug Still: [52:02] When it fell in 1942, people collected the acorns from the famous tree and grew them in backyards. When things settled down after the war, one of these scions was chosen from the yard of captain and Mrs. Jack Watson, and the Junior Ladies Garden Club planted it in the same spot as its parent with the help of students from the Division of Horticulture from the University of Georgia. On December 4th, 1946, a rededication ceremony took place with many dignitaries in attendance, including the Mayor. Since then, its fame has only grown. Pat explained what it’s like to live next to it. She comes into contact with people who appreciate it nearly every day. When you moved in, were there any details to the story passed down to you by the previous owners or any of your neighbors that you could share? Pat McAlexander: [52:52] Well, it's interesting you asked that, because I started thinking, what stories did they tell? But of course, the main story we all knew about William Jackson and the will and leaving it to himself, because he so loved the tree. But people sent me a lot of clippings, not necessarily neighbors, but just Athenians. Clippings from old newspapers, picked old postcards proclaiming the only tree in the world that owns itself. So, those are the kind of things that they did though, they sent us a lot of stories. There are so many things that happen-- We have our own stories that we could, I could tell you. Doug Still: [53:32] Could you share some of them? Pat McAlexander: [53:33] Yeah. You mentioned earlier, asking about the tourists that come. There usually- Doug Still: [53:39] Yes. Pat McAlexander: [53:39] -are people out there much of the time. And they don't bother us. You might think, “Oh.” But it's not like hordes are out there. Doug Still: [53:48] You don't mind them? Pat McAlexander: [53:49] No. Not unless they block our driveway, which doesn't happen too often. But I think many of the schools assign the children to come and see the tree. So, you see parents coming with these little kids, and they have to take their picture of the little child with the tree. Doug Still: [54:05] Oh, that’s great. Pat McAlexander: [54:05] [crosstalk] they were really there. When we first moved in, a couple decided to get married under the tree. So, that was interesting. Doug Still: [54:14] How wonderful! Pat McAlexander: [54:15] Yeah. Doug Still: [54:15] Have they been back for their anniversary? Pat McAlexander: [54:18] Haven't seen them, but we had various parties at our house. My husband is a professor also, so he had a party for his graduate students. At it, a couple met each other for the first time, and fell in love and he proposed to her under the tree. So, they- Doug Still: [54:39] Wow. Pat McAlexander: [54:39] -come back for their anniversary to the tree. Doug Still: [54:42] That's great. Pat McAlexander: [54:43] Yeah. I'm trying to think of other tourists, people from, who have been to the university, who have come back or parents of students here visit the tree. Doug Still: [54:54] I bet people come from all over the country, because it's gone viral a couple times. Pat McAlexander: [54:59] Right. People have taken videos and newscasts about it. So, it's a pretty famous tree. It may own itself, but it doesn't clean up after itself. All the acorns in our driveway. Doug Still: [55:12] [laughs] I love that. Has the tree been honored in any way in the past? Pat McAlexander: [55:17] Perhaps, one of the first big things was that George Foster Peabody, who is the one who also founded the Peabody Awards, he's linked to the journalism school- Doug Still: [55:25] Really? Pat McAlexander: [55:26] -from the University of Georgia. Yeah. He saw potential in publicizing the tree. Wouldn't you know a journalist, right? So, he's the one-- Doug Still: [55:33] Makes sense. Pat McAlexander: [55:34] Yeah. He's the one that had the granite posts put around it and the chains linking the post. The stone that quotes from the will say people have also visited the tree. There was a couple, I wrote down their names, but they're from plantawish.org. It's an organization, and their goal is to plant a tree in every state. But of course, when they came to Georgia, they visited the tree and they set up a tent under it, and we're going to spend the night, except that night, a bad storm came and I noticed that they had left. They didn't quite make it through the night. Doug Still: [56:11] [laughs] I guess that might be put pushing it a little too far, if people start camping out in front of your house. Pat McAlexander: [56:17] You may have heard about a movie that was made that included a scene under the tree. The movie was, Not Since You is the name of it. Doug Still: [56:27] Not Since You. Pat McAlexander: [56:28] Not Since You. It was produced by someone here in Athens. But one of the scenes is under the tree, like the couple are sitting romantically under the tree. So, we provided the electricity for the lighting and we got to watch the scene filmed. So, that was fun. I want to share with you some quotes from-- Did I tell you the tree has its own Facebook page? Some of the quotes on that page are pretty interesting. People would say, “We're rooting for you. Happy birthday. Go out on a limb and celebrate.” [laughter] Pat McAlexander: [57:02] “We hope other trees will follow in your trunk steps.” [Doug laughs] And then some of them, they have the tree's voice like, I guess you know the Georgia team, the Bulldogs, their colors are red and black? So, they have the tree saying, “I'll put on some orange tomorrow, gold on Friday, and then on Saturday, the day of the games, and red on Saturday.” I mentioned already there are often people outside. And so, I see all these visitors come and park their cars. There's not much place to park. I see them looking around, [chuckles]- Doug Still: [57:40] Right. Is this okay? Pat McAlexander: [57:40] -pushing like its coming out driveway. Yeah. But they finally find a place. They stroll over to the tree with cameras. They read the new stone marker and pose in front of the tree while one member of their group, of course, takes the picture. But if I'm out there, guess who gets to take the picture? They ask me. Doug Still: [58:00] You. Pat McAlexander: [58:00] Yeah. So, I've taken pictures of sorority girls, and young couples, and church groups. Doug Still: [58:06] Why is the tree special to you? Pat McAlexander: [58:09] Well, partly, I guess just because it's been my neighbor for so long. Even if it doesn't clean up after itself, I like it. Doug Still: [58:19] I bet a lot of people feel that way about their street trees. Pat McAlexander: [58:22] They probably do, although this one is the only one that owns itself. Doug Still: [58:26] Right. [laughter] Pat McAlexander: [58:28] Actually, the city now takes care of it. They do a good job. They've had a lightning rod installed. Doug Still: [58:34] Well, Pat, thanks so much for joining me on This Old Tree and talking about the tree that owns itself. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Pat McAlexander: [58:41] Well, I enjoyed it too. Doug Still: [58:43] As Pat said, care responsibilities for the tree that owns itself fall to Athens-Clarke County. Any pressure caring for such a famous tree, or does it feel mainly like a privilege? Mateo Fennell: [58:56] There's definitely pressure. When you let someone prune a tree, you give them a lot. And as a municipal arborist, there have been many a time where I've had a company prune a tree and they do it badly. You can't have that on the tree that owns itself. Doug Still: [59:17] You cannot. Mateo Fennell: [59:19] It is a privilege to be able to make decisions about that tree though. I'm extremely honored to be the one that can make those decisions for it. Doug Still: [59:30] Why do you think this tree strikes a chord with people? Mateo Fennell: [59:34] I think it really strikes a chord, because we've given it personhood almost. We've given it agency. It's a rare thing to show respect to a tree. I think we really enjoy that. Athens, Georgia is a tree loving city. We have a long history of trees going back from Dr. Ward. And then even well past him, we've got citizen groups that are based around trees. Some of the first tree councils in the US were here in Athens-Clarke County. Doug Still: [01:00:19] These days, it's pretty much accepted that the tree owns itself, and people are happier to just love the tree. And let's not think about it too much. I like that. Any final thoughts about the tree? Mateo Fennellr: [01:00:32] So there was a writer in the early 20th century. What they said about the tree was this. “However defective this title may be in law, the public recognized it.” Doug Still: [01:00:46] That's perfect. Mateo Fennell: [01:00:48] I think that's the coolest part about the tree, is that it doesn't really matter if it owns itself or not, because it does. Doug Still: [01:00:55] That's great. Well, thanks for joining me today. I enjoyed our talk. I learned a lot. Mateo Fennell: [01:00:59] Yeah, thanks. Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [01:01:01] And good luck maintaining the legend. Mateo Fennellr: [01:01:04] Yeah. Well, hopefully we can increase the legend even more too. [music] Doug Still: [01:01:13] That was lots of fun. I'd like to thank my terrific guests for coming on the show, Mateo Fennell, James Komen, and Pat McAlexander. Thanks to them, I probably won't look at a tree the same way again. I'll be sharing pictures of the tree that owns itself on Facebook and Instagram. And our website is thisoldtree.show. Music was provided by D. Lee and also Ziv Grinberg. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. Until next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree, with Doug Still
The Mariner and the Mulberry - Transcript Season 2, Episode 5 February 28, 2024 Doug Still: [00:01] A large old mulberry tree spreads its branches over the property at Truro Vineyards on Cape Cod, a popular spot for locals, tourists and wine lovers. It stands near the entrance of the main building, an old house, shading and welcoming visitors. It makes the perfect picture. The twisting branches, the bulging trunk and the craggy bark give it a wise, weathered character, like the face of an old salt. I spoke to one of the owners, Kristen Roberts. Do people ask you about it? Kristen Roberts: [00:00:33] Every single day. [Doug laughs] Well, I'll tell you this, the most asked question at Truro Vineyards is, "What kind of tree is that and, where is the bathroom?" And also, probably the most photographed thing at the vineyard. We get tagged in photos all the time with the mulberry tree in the background. People get married under it. We've had people get engaged under it. Lovely. Doug Still: [01:01] And there is an engaging, if unspecific legend that floats around the mulberry tree. Kristen: [01:07] When we purchased the vineyard, it had been run by two women who started it in 2007. And the story that they passed down to us was that a sea captain owned the house and brought the mulberry back for his young wife, for her to plant and think of him while he was out at sea. That is the story that we repeated probably two tours a day for the last 16 years. [sea shanty music] Doug Still: [01:42] That is the beginning of a tasty Cape Cod yarn right there. I've admired the tree for many years as a regular visitor to the area. Provincetown is just to the north of Truro, and Wellfleet sandwiches the town on the other side. I'd heard similar versions, but being the nudge I am, I needed details. I had to wonder, is there a real story here? Who was the sea captain and where did he go? What happened to him? Why a mulberry tree? I rolled up my sleeves and did some research. And with the help of the Truro Historical Society, a local arborist from Bartlett Tree Experts, my brother who lives nearby, and good old ancestry.com, I came up with some answers. Come with me and learn what I found out about the legend. Coming up, The Mariner and the Mulberry. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [03:00] Although this narrative focuses on the inhabitants of Truro from the 18th century to the present, I like to acknowledge that the area was the traditional homeland of the Payomet tribe, members of the Wampanoag Nation, People of the First Light, who have inhabited Cape Cod for more than 12,000 years. The Payomet are no more, but their heritage lives on in the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe. I honor the Payomet and all of the Wampanoag who faced displacement, suffering and forced assimilation. I remain committed to learning more of the past and being an active ally in the present. Like I mentioned before, the main shop at Truro Vineyards is an old house, a farmhouse, actually. Over two centuries, several different families have owned it. The Roberts family now run their business there after it was purchased by Kristen's parents, I asked her what her role is. Kristen: [03:59] I do the hiring, make sure the bills get paid, run the day-to-day operations. My brother, who is the other managing partner, is the head distiller. So, he makes our entire spirit line and manages the production on the winemaking side. Doug Still: [04:18] Whenever I visit, it's always packed. How many people visit a year do you estimate? Kristen: [04:23] It's tough to estimate. We base it on how many people do wine tastings, and I would guess it's probably in the 40,000 to 50,000 range. Doug Still: [04:34] Wow. That's impressive. And so, people can come and sit outside, right? They come and have lunch- Kristen: [04:43] Yes. Doug Still: [04:43] -go into the store, buy wine. That mulberry tree helps create the ambiance, I think that makes eating and drinking out on the lawn special. It's spectacular right now with all the holiday lights. Kristen: [04:56] Oh, thank you. Doug Still: [04:57] While the Roberts learned about the sea captain story from the previous owners, Kristen expressed that it's unclear how it actually got passed down. And how do you think they heard about it? It's just an oral tradition passed down between owners? Kristen: [05:14] I don't know what their communication was. The property had been, I believe, foreclosed on when they bought it. So, I'm not actually sure how much communication they had with previous owners. So, I don't know where they got this. It's funny, we never thought to ask like, "Oh, how do you know that?" Doug Still: [05:31] I asked about particular variations of the tale printed in local newspapers and websites. I'm a stickler. I don't know, I'm a pain in the ass. [Kristen laughs] I ask these questions. There was one legend that I heard about a sea captain bringing the tree back for his girlfriend. Have you heard that one? Kristen: [05:48] Yep, I have. I've heard girlfriend and wife. So, I assumed it was the same person with a different title, not two different people, but I don't really know. Doug Still: [05:57] One newspaper article said that the captain's name was Atkins Hughes, and that he planted the tree for his wife, Amelia. Remember that name. It also suggested that the captain planted two trees, not one, because for years, two huge trees framed the house at Truro Vineyards. The other tree was a graceful elm tree. Kristen: [06:19] You know, I had heard that at one point, when that tree came down, it's so funny because we had these two just so beautiful and spectacular trees. And the mulberry always got the lion's share of the attention, but the other one was just-- It's just as majestic, and it was absolutely huge and it created so much shade for the property and for the house. People, they didn't even realize how impactful that tree was on our property until it was gone. I described it like it was losing a part of us when it came down, because it was just so much a part of the landscape, and it was so beautiful. Doug Still: [07:03] Yeah. So, what happened? Kristen: [07:05] It came down in the Nor'easter in October of 2021, I believe. I went over in the morning to look, and it had splintered right down the center and fallen. And so, I called my friend, Ken at Bartlett Trees, and he takes care of all of our trees, and he said there was nothing that we could do and that it had to come down. Doug Still: [07:29] Oh. What did you think when you drove up to see that tree down? Kristen: [07:32] Oh, it was awful. It was just awful. Doug Still: [07:35] When I first met you mentioned a sign that you took down that said circa 1840. Was that the date on it? Kristen: [07:44] That was the date on the mulberry tree. Yes, that sign is still in our attic. Doug Still: [07:48] It is. Okay. She later found the sign in the attic and emailed me a photo. The sign says, Mulberry 1836. Different than the current sign on the tree. Right now, the sign says Chinese Mulberry circa 1870. Kristen: [08:08] Yes. Doug Still: [08:09] You made that sign? Kristen: [08:12] We did make that sign, and that was based on information, right or wrong, that we got since the other sign got taken down. Doug Still: [08:21] I felt a little bad peppering poor Kristen with these questions. But no worries, there are many different bits of lore floating around. So, the possibilities I had at that moment were that a Chinese mulberry tree and perhaps an elm tree were planted between the years 1836 and 1870, provided by a sea captain named Atkins Hughes for his wife or girlfriend, Amelia. Hey, that's some progress. Kristen mentioned her arborist, Ken MacPhee of Bartlett Tree Experts, who had been caring for the tree for a couple of decades. It turns out Ken and I are both graduates of Barnstable High, which is also located on Cape Cod. Although I was four years ahead of him, he was kind enough to come and tell me more about the tree itself. Hi, Ken. Thanks for joining me under the Truro Vineyards mulberry. Ken MacPhee: [09:12] No problem. Glad to be here. Doug Still: [09:14] So, you and the Bartlett crews have been taking care of this tree for many years. Do you still find it as spectacular as I find this tree? Ken: [09:24] Yes. I mean, just looking at the structure of the tree, it's absolutely incredible. Just the gnarly knots and the twists with the limbs and the branches. It's a very cool tree to look at. Doug: [09:38] Yeah. And it's multi-stemmed, which mulberries are in general. And it's covered in green moss. Ken: [09:45] Yep, it's a great little lichen that we have on the cape, and some of its yellow mulberries tend to get the yellow color to it, as well as Siberian elm. Doug Still: [09:57] Just also being close to the ocean, I think, just all the fog and moisture in the air. Ken: [10:02] Yep. Doug Still:[10:04] I see that there are cables up in the tree. Ken: [10:06] Mm-hmm. Doug Still: [10:07] Why do you have those up there? Ken: [10:08] I've got some large, overextended limbs, so they're there for supplemental support to try to limit any possible failure. Much needed on some of these larger, overextended limbs. Doug Still: [10:20] Yeah. And we're standing on a path that comes underneath the canopy of the tree and curls around and there are tables out here too on the lawn where people come and eat. So, that's obviously very important to have a safe tree. Ken: [10:35] The pathway was put in, if I remember correctly, six years ago. Doug Still: [10:39] Ken told me about how they protected the roots during some recent construction, and also the soil aeration work they do to mitigate compaction caused by the feet of tens of thousands of visitors each year. This can compromise an old tree's root system, even a stalwart mulberry. Ken: [10:56] Of course, the older trees, they just need a little bit more care. We fertilize twice a year. Doug Still: [11:02] In general, mulberries are pretty tough. I mean, they can grow anywhere. Ken: [11:06] Yes. Doug Still: [11:06] As we know, they are growing in vacant lots and along highways and wherever they want. Ken: [11:12] Yeah. Currently some-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [11:13] One reason I love that this great mulberry specimen is celebrated is that for the most part, here in America, we consider the mulberry a weed. The short story is that the white mulberry, Morus alba, was introduced to North America back in the early 1600s at the doomed colony of Virginia. King James I promoted the planting of white mulberries to wishfully promote sericulture or the production of silk. You see, silkworm larvae love the leaves of white mulberry. Mulberries were imported and planted extensively in Europe and England after the species was transported from China. So, it was shipped to the American colonies too. It was planted everywhere, even Massachusetts. The silk industry didn't pan out, but the white mulberry was here to stay and even naturally hybridized with our own native red mulberry. For a full story on this, check out a recent episode of My Favorite Trees podcast about the history of mulberry trees. Ken: [12:17] Yeah. Currently, some states are listing them as invasive. There are some fruitless varieties out there that if you want to introduce them to the landscape, I encourage those. The white mulberry, alba, can actually produce the speed of the male flower, releasing pollen in excess of 350 miles an hour. [Wow] So, it's a wind-pollinated species in it. The male just sends it out rather fast. And you see, in Wisconsin, they're having complaints with the red mulberry becoming just hybridized between the white because of that pollination that occurs. Doug Still: [12:57] Ken and I were pretty sure we were looking at a white mulberry, but wondered if the tree was a variety of white mulberry called ‘multicaulis,’ which became available in the regional nursery trade in the 1830s. This question had some implications regarding the origin of this tree. To follow up on our identification question, I had the pleasure of speaking with Peter Coles, the person who literally wrote the book on mulberries recently in 2019, in a beautiful book simply called Mulberry. Peter lectures frequently, and leads tours in London to bring attention to the historic mulberry trees scattered around the city, where they are mad about mulberries. His website is called Morus Londinium. Peter, thanks for joining me today. Peter Coles: [13:43] Yeah. Welcome. Lovely to meet you and to have the opportunity. Yeah. Doug Still: [13:47] I'm glad you had a chance to look at the photos of the Truro Vineyards mulberry that we're looking into. And based on the photos, which were, there was one that was from a ways away, and then a close up of some of the leaves. What would you say the species of this tree is? Peter: [14:06] It looks like a Morus alba. And knowing something about the history of the mulberry in North America, that's the most likely guess. Doug Still: [14:18] Which is white mulberry. Peter: [14:20] The white mulberry. Yeah. And the white mulberry was being used for a silk industry that eventually took off, especially in the 19th century. They were imported in large numbers. So, that would be turning out to be the most common mulberry tree in the US, as it's ousting the native red mulberry unfortunately, because it hybridizes with it, it mixes with it. And so, it could plausibly be a red mulberry, because they both have fairly small leaves. But the red mulberry can have quite distinctly lobed leaves. This one doesn't really have lobed leaves. They're quite small. And that looks like your standard Chinese white mulberry. I say Chinese because it does really originate from China, which is where the silk industry began, and it's the natural host for the wild silk moth, Bombyx mori. Doug Still: [15:14] Right. So, it's most likely the straight species, Morus alba. Peter: [15:20] Yes, I would say so, the one that's most commonly found. Some people talk about another variety, I don't know if that's relevant or not, called Morus ‘multicaulis.’ Doug Still: [15:34] ‘Multicaulis.’ Peter: [15:35] Yeah. Morus alba ‘multicaulis.’ And that was imported on quite a large scale in the early 1800s, because it turned out to grow really quickly and to accept being chopped right back, its leaves harvested, if you like, and it would grow again very quickly. It wouldn't grow very tall, so you didn't need ladders or anything to harvest the leaves. And that kind of spread really at one time and became very popular. It doesn't actually look like that for me. They tend to have larger leaves. I would say that the multicaulis tends to plateau out at about 7ft to 10ft, really. It really was grown for silk. So, if there's no association with the silk industry for this particular tree, it wasn't part of a plantation or it wasn't on a farm or something like that. If it was planted as a single tree. A white mulberry, and possibly from China with a sea captain, why not? It's a nice story. Doug Still: [16:39] That answers the question, why a mulberry tree? They were in fashion at the time, but it is unlikely that the owners were interested in producing silk with one tree in this tiny seafaring town. And the tree is the straight species of white mulberry, not the variety multicaulis that was locally available for the purpose of feeding silkworms. But what about the elm tree that shared the lawn? Should it be part of the legend or not? After the break, I returned back with Ken MacPhee. Together, we figured it out, and then I learned all about Captain Atkins Hughes and the Hughes family. You're listening to This Old Tree. [theme music] [sea shanty music] Doug Still: [17:46] There was another tree next to it. I believe it was a Chinese elm. Ken: [17:52] It was a Siberian elm. Doug Still: [17:54] Was it a Siberian elm? Ken: [17:56] Yes. The October 2021 nor'easter. Kristen sent me a text saying that there was a large limb that had failed in the tree. I showed up, and her late father, Dave, was sitting in his car smoking his cigar. And that limb was a central leader, and then there was two other fractured leaders in the tree, so we had to unfortunately remove it. Doug Still: [18:24] I told Ken about something really cool I found while I was doing some Internet searches. This house that we were standing next to was the subject of a watercolor by Edward Hopper painted in 1930. The famous American painter lived and worked in Truro, unlike many other artists who found their way to Provincetown just down the road. He loved Truro and painted its quaint houses and landscapes. Entitled "Rich's House" after the owners at the time, the piece sold at Christie's in 2018 for $3.2 million. It was from the estate of Peggy and David Rockefeller, and was one of Mr. Rockefeller's most cherished artworks. In the watercolor, there's our mulberry tree, prominently featured. There is no other tree, no elm. Could he have simply left it out? So, there's a question as to the age of that tree. I saw in Edward Hopper's watercolor from 1930, that tree is not there. Ken: [19:27] No . Doug Still: [19:27] And the mulberry tree is. Ken: [19:29] Mm-hmm. Doug Still: [19:30] However, I'm told that sometimes he left things out of his compositions. Did you count the rings? Ken: [19:36] We never counted the rings. Doug Still: [19:38] Oh, you didn't? Ken: [19:39] No, they're still there. [laughs] Doug Still: [19:40] Well, I think maybe we should. Ken: [19:42] Yeah, we can do that. Definitely. Doug Still: [19:44] The stump was still in the ground right next to us near the parking lot, a remnant of the beloved tree. Kids love to jump on it now. The stump may be left as an unplanned tabletop. We leaned over on either side of it and counted separately. How many did you get, Ken? Ken: [20:00] I came up with 89. Doug Still: [20:02] I got 83. That's close, right? Ken: [20:05] Yeah. Doug Still: [20:06] It's a little muddy where I started. It looked like there were two young leaders that fused together in the center. Ken: [20:12] Yes. Yeah, I definitely say that too. Doug Still: [20:15] And this is about 3.5ft, 4ft high? Ken: [20:20] Yeah. Doug Still: [20:21] So, we could probably add a few more years on, maybe 90 years old. Ken: [20:27] I would say. Yeah. Doug Still: [20:28] That puts it at 1943. Another question answered. Hopper did not ignore the elm tree in 1930, because it was planted ten years later. And the sea captain most definitely did not plant the elm tree 70 years to 100 years earlier than that. Ken then took me around town, which he knew so well, and introduced me to a couple of his long-term clients. One property on Collins Road had three old mulberries out in front of an old cape house. Although one was dead and another fell over in a storm. They weren't as old as the Truro Vineyards mulberry but were another example of the fashion for planting mulberries. We had a great chat about the Cape's history of other exotic plants and “washashore” trees, quite literally, that are now a part of the environmental legacy. I told him about an English oak I found once in a natural area in Eastham's Fort Hill, part of the Cape Cod National Seashore. I thought an English oak was a very strange exotic to find on the bank of a marsh. What's the story? Ken: [21:35] With the English oaks, they used the acorns as packing back in the shipping days, the old sailing days. And with all the shipwrecks that we've had on the Cape, those acorns naturally would float and come on land, and people would either collect them or they'd just self-seed or an animal would collect them. Eastham used to have a lot of English oak. Lost well over 90% of them due to Phytophthora root rot. Doug Still: [22:02] So, there was a big stand of English oak in Eastham? Ken: [22:05] Yeah. Salt pond area used to have quite a bit going all through the national seashore. And the cedar banks on the way down to Coast Guard Beach used to have hundreds of trees. Doug Still: [22:14] Wow. And that was just a result of the shipping trade. Ken: [22:18] Mm-hmm. Rosa rugosa was another accidental, due to the shipping trade. So, Chinese in origin, and rosehip is the highest content of vitamin C. So, to prevent scurvy, sailors would come back with the rosehips, eat the rosehips, getting the vitamin C to combat the scurvy. Doug Still: [22:39] Amazing. Ken: [22:39] Shipwreck would happen, wash up, and that's why we have Rosa rugosa on the Cape. Doug Still: [22:44] It's a quintessential Cape Cod plant now. You go to the beach, you see banks of Rosa rugosa. Ken: [22:49] Yeah. Doug Still: [22:50] It seems then that our mulberry tree is not such an anomaly. Cape Cod mariners had access to the world, and ships were returning with all kinds of cargo, including plants. But I had one mariner in particular to find out about Captain Atkins Hughes. Was he real? And if so, does he truly connect with this legend? [theme music] Doug Still: [23:19] Oh, ancestry.com, you're always there when I need you. I went down a rabbit hole and became a bit obsessed, mapping out the Hughes family and its origins. It goes something like this. There was an Atkins Hughes that lived in Truro. There were several of them, actually. The name Atkins, stemming from the Atkins surname, found up one maternal line. The Atkins Hughes we are concerned with, the one that became a ship captain, was born in 1828 to James Hughes and his wife, Jane Avery. Census information has them living in the village of North Truro, which is the part of town where we find Truro Vineyards and the mulberry. As most communities were, it was established on the bay side of the Cape, not the rugged Atlantic side with its dune cliffs and dramatic surf. There were no addresses listed in the census, just ID numbers that show the order of data collection. Atkins was the fourth of nine children, and he was the fourth son. [sea shanty music] The father of James Hughes was one John Hughes, and John was the first Hughes to immigrate to Truro as a boy of 12 years in 1763. He came from the Isle of Wight, just offshore from Portsmouth and Southampton, England, one of the world's major shipping hubs. Perhaps, the Isle of Wight was just a launching point. In Truro, John Hughes learned to become a dependable shipmate and quickly rose to the rank of “master mariner,” according to one source. He married Rachel Dyer in 1776, who was from a prominent family in Provincetown. They had seven children. James was the fifth. James ‘younger brother was Atkins Hughes, the first to receive that name. I met with some really welcoming people at the Truro Historical Society. Janice Pelosi: [25:20] I'm Janice Pelosi, I'm the Manager of Truro Historical Society. Norman Pope: [25:25] Norman Pope. I just volunteer here and play know-it-all. Doug Still: [25:28] How long have you volunteered here? Norman: [25:31] Well, I used to be on the board many years ago and now I've been volunteering here for about six or seven years. Doug Still: [25:36] Oh. How about you, Janice? How long have you been the manager? Janice: [25:40] This will be my third year. What will you call-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [25:42] Wow, a newbie. Janice: [25:44] Absolutely. [laughter] Doug Still: [25:46] They received me at their home base in the Cobb Archive and Truro Centre, a charming and echoey little building that used to be the public library. They confirmed what I'd learned so far and taught me a lot about what the village of North Truro was like back in the day. This village is where the family lived? Janice: [26:05] Yes. Doug Still: [26:06] Were most of the men sailors in town? Janice: [26:09] We did some research on the 1850 census, and we found that the population at that time was about 2,000 residents. Looking through the census, we found that 74% were listed as mariners. Norman: [26:29] You have to think of Truro, it has no natural resources. So, what do you have? The population peaked around 1840, because the mackerel industry was so stunning in Cape Cod Bay, thereafter mackerel and cod. 63 vessels were tying up at Pamet Harbor at that point. That's a lot of ships for a small harbor. Doug Still:: [26:50] It is. They were also whaling too, then, apparently. Norman: [26:54] Yeah. Janice: [26:55] Whaling as well. The next largest industry was farming, and that was a very small proportion. Doug Still: [27:02] What was life like, do you think? Norman: [27:04] Think of the landscape of Turo. It's all sand. You notice when you drive down Route 6, you're going up and down. When you're driving to Route 6 in mid-Cape, it's all flat. Go to Truro, you're driving up and down. So, supposedly, those are hollows raked by a retreating glacier. Doug Still: [27:22] Norman explained that the village was set down in one of these hollows, offering some protection from the maritime winds. Sometimes these hollows formed what are known as kettle ponds, if they dipped low enough to reach the water table. It's also where the best soil could be found on this sandy peninsula, washed down along the gentle slopes. By the early 19th century, there was barely a tree in sight. The forest had been completely cleared long ago for building materials and firewood. Henry David Thoreau passed through Truro on his famous walk to Provincetown, described in his book Cape Cod. He called Truro Cape Cod's wrist, and Provincetown its fist. You’d be able to look around for miles. He described the scattered houses and spires of churches among the hollows as if they had been swallowed by the earth. A beautiful photo of the village from the 1880s owned by the Historical Society shows small white cottages dotted within rolling hills. Hopper's 1930 watercolor, even then, portrays the house set within a lonely barren landscape, highlighting the importance of that solitary mulberry tree. Since then, pine oak forest has returned. Almost 70% of the Truro's land is protected within the Cape Cod National Seashore, and more than 80% of the town is forested. So, it's easy to forget what it was like back then. The soil eroded. The land depleted. Quite literally, people had nowhere to look for their livelihood but the sea. Janice: [28:58] From a human standpoint, if you can imagine that 74% of the men were out at sea and the season ran from March to November. You can imagine that during that time, the burden of the women folk who are in town, they took a lion's share of keeping the families running, making sure there was food on the table with really not a constant partner by their side. So, from a woman's standpoint, I always envision the Truro women as being pretty much pioneers. They did their weaving, they did their own farming, they talk a lot about berry picking. A lot of parenting - Doug Still: [29:41] They had to, because- Janice: [29:42] -because they had to. Doug Still: [29:43] -the husband was out to sea. Janice: [29:44] Out to sea. Doug Still: [29:45] And the boys. Janice: [29:46] And the boys. Norman: [29:47] Yeah, the 13-year-old boys. Yeah. Doug Still: [29:49] Boys from coastal communities would begin working on fishing vessels or even larger ships in their early teens. This was not uncommon. Doug Still: [29:57] There was a school. Is there an old schoolhouse? Norman: [30:00] 1841 of the earliest maps we have of Truro shows seven schoolhouses within about a mile of the Pamet Valley. Doug Still: [30:08] Oh, really? Norman: [30:09] Everybody who had a living room and a couple kids could have a school. Janice: [30:13] So, it was a nurturing environment. You can envision a very close-knit community that took very much care and really had a community spirit when it came to raising their children and keeping in touch with everybody. I think just-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [30:26] We looked up the family patriarch, John Hughes, in the vital records. That's when we learned that one day in May of 1799, he and three others were lost in Cape Cod Bay. Could you read what the town vital records state? Norman: [30:40] John Hughes, age 48. Shuble Coan. That's an old name in Truro. Paul Dyer, age 29, and Hutta Dyer, age 17, were drowned just off the pond as they were coming in from a whale boat from their rig to shore. “Man knoweth not his time.” Doug Still: [31:01] “Man knoweth not his time.” That soon became a repeating theme in our research. Wow. So, four people died at sea. They were coming in from their whaler? Norman: [31:13] True. Doug Still: [31:14] Just off the… Norman: [31:15] They were in a long boat. Doug Still: [31:16] They were in a long boat. Norman: [31:17] True. Doug Still: [31:18] -just off the pond. What's the pond? Janice: [31:22] So, the pond is right off of the Bay of Cape Cod in North Truro. At the time of their history, it would have been an open estuary onto a pond, where the harbor was, was further south down the bay in a harbor called Pamet Harbor, which was a large shipping and whaling harbor in the outer Cape. Doug Still: [31:49] Later in the afternoon, I took a ride over and visited the pond. Its shape is a long oval sitting east-west in one of the glacial hollows. On the western end, an embankment rises up to a parking lot which overlooks Cape Cod Bay. The eastern end points into the village. It was called Pond Village, in fact. Otherwise known as North Truro. It was an industrial center, so to speak, with a general store, library, warehouses, a barbershop, lunchrooms, guest houses and a hotel. Another historic sign next to the pond was even more fascinating. Apparently, on November 16th, 1620, a scouting crew of 16 pilgrims led by Miles Standish and camped on the shore of this pond for their second night on American soil. The Mayflower was anchored in what is now Provincetown harbor. John Hughes and his young mates drowned within shouting distance. They are on their way down to the harbor. Janice: [32:49] Exactly. Norman: [32:51] Hard to say. At that time, Truro was really known as a whaling capital. They could have anchored the vessel offshore. They could have dropped him off, because that's where he lived. But Cape Cod Bay, off the shore there, is fairly shallow, so the whale boats probably were not coming in. Doug Still: [33:09] Interesting. So, they were just going home to their houses near the pond in a small boat, and then they capsized. Norman: [33:18] That's probably what happened. Doug Still: [33:20] It was tragic. John's wife was left to care for all seven children, including nine-month-old Rachel. The eldest, Emma, was married that October. Her father's absence must have been sharply felt. James was only five years old. Two decades later, James married Jane Avery and started his own large family. The maritime life brought more sadness, however, when James's younger brother, Atkins, died at sea in April of 1828, according to a gravestone in Old North Cemetery. That August, James and Jane had a new baby, a boy. They named him Atkins, after his lost uncle. He grew up to become the sea captain relevant to our story. And James, unlike his father and his brother, was determined not to die at sea. Hardscrabble life as it was, he became a farmer, as noted in the censuses. Could James have owned the farm that became Truro Vineyards? Janice and Norman got out a few old maps for the town, one from 1850 and another from the 1880s. They were huge, and we unrolled them across the big wooden tables and leaned over them. This is the 1850 map of Pond Village. What does it show? Norman: [34:41] It shows the pond. It shows the road beyond the pond, doesn't it? Doug Still: [34:44] In all of the little houses with family names. [Right] Which one is the one that's now Truro Vineyard? Janice: [34:52] It is up in the far corner. It's listed on the map as J. M. Hughes. Norman: [34:58] This is north. Janice: [35:00] Here's Bay Road. Doug Still: [35:02] It was unclear at first. There were multiple J. Hughes'. It says J. Hughes. So, from this, we actually don't know if it's James or John. Janice: [35:15] Correct. Doug Still: [35:16] John was James's older brother. But we found a house closer to the pond with the full name John Hughes listed next to it. We surmised that as the eldest son, John, likely inherited the family house and James moved down the road. Doug Still: [35:30] And then, this J. Hughes has got to be James. Janice: [35:36] Yes. Atkins-- Doug Still: [35:37] Why is all this important? So, Atkins Hughes would have grown up in that house? Janice: [35:42] It appears so, based on the map, that he would have been raised at what is now Truro Vineyards. Doug Still: [35:50] We confirmed our guess when we unrolled the second map, created 10 years after James' death. It labeled the same house as the “Mrs. James Hughes Estate.” Bingo. Norman celebrated by opening some candy. So now, we're looking at– [sound of candy wrapper crackling, then laughter] Norman: [36:08] My fireball. [laughter] Norman: [36:11] I'll switch to a gummy bear. Doug Still: [36:13] Yeah. Norman's eating a fireball. So, great. We'd located Atkins Hughes in the house at Truro Vineyards at least as a child in the 1830s and 1840s. But regarding the mulberry legend, it still didn't add up. Supposedly, he, at some point, brought this tree back from China or the South Pacific for his wife or his girlfriend or someone named Amelia. But this was his parents’ house, later to become part of his parents’ estate. [theme music] When we return after a short break, the pieces fall into place, the family, life and career of Atkins Hughes. This is This Old Tree. [sea shanty music] Doug Still: [37:14] Young Atkins Hughes began seafaring in 1840 at the age of 12 years, according to a blurb in the History of Barnstable County written in 1890. It couldn't have made his parents happy, but that's where fortunes were made. Most likely, he was brought onto a fishing vessel, as there were plenty of them. Unfortunately, life in Truro was about to take a very dark turn. You mentioned a storm in 1841. Could you talk about that storm? Norman: [37:45] Was it December? Janice: [37:47] October 3rd. Norman: [37:48] October 3rd, 1841? Janice: [37:49] Correct. Norman: [37:50] Everybody in Truro was out to sea. Doug Still: [37:53] 57 fishermen in seven boats were lost in the surprise gale. Janice: [37:58] 57 men. Norman: [37:59] 57. Janice: [38:00] What's interesting, we talked a little bit about Pamet Harbor, and we talked about fishing in the Bay as Norman mentioned. By 1850, the Bay was getting pretty much overfished with mackerel. And these fishermen kept on having to move further and further and further out to sea. When this storm hit, all but one of the seven ships that went down were in the George's Bank area. The seamen, as they did at the time, they read the wind. Most of them lashed themselves. The captains- Doug Still: [38:39] It was getting bad. Janice: [38:40] -lashed themselves to the masts and hoped for the best. Two boats survived. There are two survivor accounts, the “Water Witch” we talked about and the “Garnet.” Now, the “Garnet” floated out, it was a little further out. They were actually rescued by a merchant ship that was going from Liverpool to New York. It's one of the first iron merchant ships with 400 passengers. But there were 57 fatherless children, and I believe, 27 widows out of that one storm. It was said, by further accounts, that a lot of widows refused to marry a mariner after that. They'd like to remain widows. Doug Still: [39:27] I don't blame them. Janice: [39:28] One of the most moving things, if I could say, there's a quote that was in the Provincetown Advocate as far as reminiscence, if I may say, of observations. And the quote was, "We saw a father who had two sons among missing, for days and weeks go morning and evening to the hilltop, which overlooked the ocean, and there, seating himself, would watch for hours, scanning the distant horizon with his glass, hoping every moment to discover some speck on which to build a hope." Doug Still: [40:04] This was crushing to a small village. Some said the people of Truro never recovered. Atkins Hughes was not on one of these fishing boats. It's hard to know where he was. But many of the lost fishermen were really just boys. These were his schoolmates, neighbors and friends. A memorial with an obelisk was created in the cemetery at the first congregational parish. The town sailing master spoke. Norman: [40:30] A gentleman named Joshua Davis developed the first academy, and he was basically the equivalent of a high school. And his stated goal was really to educate people as mariners. One of the things they taught at the school was how to set a course and travel it. They had math and English and stuff like that, so these youngsters could actually get an education to eventually captain a ship. And when the monument, the obelisk, was dedicated in 1841, Joshua Davis gave the benediction for it. Doug Still: [41:12] After our talk at the Cobb Archive, Janice brought me over to the churchyard to see it. Set among hundreds of other gravestones, the obelisk was surrounded by a wrought iron fence. It had four plaques on it. Would you mind reading what's on the main plaque? Janice: [41:28] Yes, absolutely. This memorial was dedicated in 1842. And what the plaque says is, "Sacred to the memory of 57 citizens of Truro who were lost in seven vessels which founded at sea in the memorable gale of October 3rd, 1841. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Man goeth to his long home, and mourners go about the street." Doug Still: [42:03] Wow. And the other three plaques are names. Could you read some of them, or do you want to point out some of them? Janice: [42:12] I sure can. A couple of notable, very sad events. The Snow family lost eight family members alone as you go across this plaque. I can read one of the plaques, and we can go through the names. Joshua Snow, age 35. Ephraim Snow, age 16. Moses Snow, age 16. Elisha Rich, age 26. Joseph Rich, age….. Doug Still: [42:41] I left my visit with the Truro Historical Society with a better understanding of the people of the old village and feeling moved by their hardships and fears. It was against this backdrop that young Atkins learned his trade at sea during the 1840s. What would be his destiny? This is where my brother, Chip, comes in. As a writer and former news editor, he is a skilled online researcher with access to newspaper databases most people wouldn't know about. He's also a resident of Cape Cod and was particularly interested in this story. I was soon peppered with texts with links to everything he found. Of particular interest was Atkins Hughes' obituary in the Boston Globe, which illuminated his early career. It said, "Captain Hughes, at the age of 18, became mate of the brig, Pauline, under Captain Levi Stevens." This was the beginning of his deep-sea voyaging. A brig is a medium-sized sailing ship with two masts, both square rigged. A product of the 18th century, it was the workhorse of the 19th century. Brigs were most commonly used as merchant vessels, but due to their speed and maneuverability, there were warships too. It was the favorite ship of pirates. An ocean voyage could be made with a brig, but more commonly they kept to the coastal routes. So, by 1846, Atkins was likely seeing the Caribbean in ports all around the Atlantic, one later ship manifest has the Pauline journeying from Venezuela to New York City. Atkins showed his executive ability early on and his few years of fishing off of George's Bank were behind him. He was on the path to becoming a commander. Even so, the fate of his grandfather, uncle and companions lost in the gale of 1841 were in the back of his mind. As captain of the Pauline, Captain Levi Stevens was Atkins Hughes's boss and mentor. Stevens had a stellar reputation as a ship captain sailing out of Boston and is featured in later history books. And here's the connection. Stevens was born and raised in Truro. He lived there with his wife, Olive, and four children, although they eventually had a fifth child elsewhere. It was likely Stevens who recruited the promising young Atkins Hughes, stamping his ticket to the high seas and higher reputation. [music] Doug Still: [45:05] We are getting close to the crux of the legend, aren't we? When Atkins wasn't on a ship with Levi Stevens, he returned to the family homestead in Truro. The family must have been relieved to see him each time. By the winter of 1850, he was 21 years and unmarried. As a commander in training on ships out of Austin, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he was a little bit cocky, his head swelling with promise. At the very least, he had charisma and certainly was full of stories of far-off places and people. Despite young Truro women avoiding sailors, he was a catch. He courted a young woman from town that winter. Her name was not Amelia. She was Betsy Lewis Paine, and they were married on March 28th, 1850. She was the oldest of a large family. Her father, Jesse Payne, was a farmer, not a mariner. The census of 1850 shows Betsy L. Hughes living with James and Jane Hughes in their family, although the census taker misspelled all their names as Hages. So, after the wedding, Betsy moved into the farmhouse with Atkins family, as they didn't yet have a home of their own. Atkins didn't appear in that census, which was collected in August of that year. He had to have been out to sea. In July of 1850, Captain Levi Stevens and his wife had their fourth child born in Truro, a girl. In December, Atkins and Betsey had their first baby, also a girl. I don't think it's a coincidence that Atkins daughter received the same name as Levi's daughter did a few months earlier. Amelia. [music] Doug Still: [46:50] Mm-hmm. Amelia wasn't Atkins wife or girlfriend. She was his firstborn. The young mariner, his wife and daughter were living at the farm that is now Truro Vineyard. With a different slant than we started out with, it seems the legend has some very solid footing. Atkins Hughes brought a mulberry tree back to Cape Cod to plant for his new family, his wife Betsy and daughter, Amelia. His parents were apparently fine with a new tree in their front yard. So, the remaining questions are when and from where? I've got a theory. Atkins and Betsy purchased a house nearby on Shore Road in 1853, their first home. There's little reason why he would have planted the tree at his parents’ home after that when they had their own property. He also wouldn't have planted the tree for Betsy as a girlfriend or wife prior to 1850, as she didn't live at the Hughes' house until the end of March. So, that puts the tree planting between 1850 and 1853. Could he have acquired the mulberry tree while at sea that summer of 1850? Possibly, but I doubt it. Amelia wasn't born yet, and the brig, Pauline, likely wasn't making transpacific voyages to Southeast Asia, where white mulberries are from. For me, all circumstantial evidence points to an 1851 journey halfway around the world aboard the Southern Cross. [music] Doug Still: [48:22] The Southern Cross was a clipper ship built in Boston over the winter. The heyday of the clipper ship had just begun within the past decade, and they were fast, state of the art three-mast ships with a large spread of sail. They were magnificent. And clipper ships were breaking speed records across the globe. According to one source, the emphasis on speed was due partly to the commercial desire to bring the first tea of the spring back from China. Another reason was to quickly get to San Francisco without having to cross North America over land, as this was the time of the gold rush. The Southern Cross was built by E. & H.O. Briggs, or the Briggs brothers hired by Baker and Morrell. It sported a flying golden eagle as its figurehead. The launch in March of 1851 was a big event. The new ship was painted twice by the famous maritime painter, Fitz Henry Lane. Both paintings can be found in the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, Massachusetts. It departed Boston for San Francisco on May 8th. Levi Stevens was hired to command the ship for its first voyage. Unfortunately, the trip to San Francisco was beset with problems as it lost all three of its top gallant masts in a windstorm called a pampero near the Rio de la Plata between Buenos Aires and Montevideo. They got fixed, but the journey took 136 days. Leaving from San Francisco, things got much better. The ship sailed to Singapore, then to Calcutta in 56 days, a new record for that run. They returned directly to Boston, which took only 97 days. So, the Southern Cross returned to Boston by my [unintelligible [00:50:09] sometime following February of 1852. The trip made the newspapers. [music] Doug Still: [50:21] Frustratingly, the archives I contacted did not have the ship log for this voyage, and I couldn't put my hands on it to prove Atkins Hughes was aboard. But I'm guessing he was. Follow my deductive reasoning. As the new captain, Stevens would have hired upper-level staff that he knew and could trust. He had Atkins under his wing for a number of years, his hometown mentee. Secondly, Atkins second child wasn't born until January 1853, a two-year gap with Amelia. He was away for almost the entirety of 1851. So, a late winter return to Truro in 1852 means the timing was right for the conception of their daughter, Phebe. There were later connections to the Southern Cross too. It turns out that Captain Levi Stevens left as command of the ship in 1852 and settled in the San Francisco area, Oakland, to be specific. He started a shipping firm and was incredibly successful. A new captain took the helm', a man named Thomas Prince Howe, and later Baker and Morrell hired Benjamin Howe. He was the captain in 1863, when the Southern Cross met its demise during the Civil War, when an armed merchant raider called the Florida caught the ship, allowed the crew to de-board, and then put it to the torch, a tragic end for such a majestic ship. Captain Hughes remained in touch with Howe and reported that Howe's next ship to the South Pacific had been boarded by pirates. And Howe and his wife were shot in their own cabin. Atkins heard about it while he was in China and described the story to a later author. In 1868, a new Southern Cross clipper ship was built by Baker and Morrell, and this time, Atkins Hughes was the commander. If Baker and Morrell offer a consistent thread between ships and relationships, it makes sense that it began with Atkins Hughes as their employee on that first voyage of the Southern Cross in 1851. If so, then Atkins acquired the white mulberry tree on his trip through the South Pacific, quite possibly in Singapore to bring back home. Where did he get the idea? I have one more bit of information about Levi Stevens to share with you. He was a plant collector. According to several histories, he was a connoisseur of exotic shrubs. The garden that he created in his new estate in the Fruitvale district of Oakland was described as beautiful and picturesque, and it was full of plants from Asia and South America. If Captain Stevens was finding plants to bring home, it's tempting to think that the mentor encouraged Atkins to transport a mulberry tree if he wanted one. [music] Doug Still: [53:09] So, that's my best guess as to what happened. In the end, I don't know if it matters. I mentioned Thoreau, someone once mistakenly quoted him, but I like this mashup anyway. “Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.” Maybe that's true of legend hunting too. After the mulberry tree was planted, Atkins Hughes led a long and successful career. He and Betsey had five children together, all girls. He was captain of the second Southern Cross ship until he retired from sailing in 1879. He crossed the equator 88 times, always safely, and he always returned home. According to his obituary, he often took his wife and daughters with him. Apparently, that mulberry was a good luck charm. Today, the gnarly tree is still loved. Underneath its protective branches, people get married and taste the wine created by its new family of owners. It connects to the people of old North Truro, and a sea captain vowing that he'll return home. [sea shanty music] Doug Still: [54:32] I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to the research or appeared on the show today, Kristen Roberts, Ken MacPhee, Janice Pelosi, Norman Pope and all the staff at the Truro Historical Society, Peter Coles and my brother, Chip or David Still II. I had a blast and more information about them can be found in the show notes. I'll be posting many pictures of the mulberry tree, historic landscapes, and the Southern Cross on Facebook and Instagram. The show website is thisoldtree.show. I'd also like to thank my friends, David Bor and Kimberly Wass, for recording traditional sea shanties just for this show played on recorder. Just wonderful. Thank you very much for listening. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [music plays out] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Tree Story Shorts III (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 4 January 8, 2024 Doug Still: [00:05] Hi, all. Welcome back to This Old Tree, the show that features heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug Still and today I've got a third edition of “Tree Story Shorts” for you. This is when guests take over and submit their own stories about trees they're thinking about or that have a special meaning. In this episode, we're going to hear about Charles Darwin; bride and groom trees; a massive American Elm in Illinois; Al Capone; original tree-inspired music; a tree used for meetings at an army base; and a moving story from war-torn Ukraine. Tree Story Shorts. Coming up on This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:06] We start off with a story from Rob McBride, a tree-promoting celebrity in the UK known as the Tree Hunter. Rob has been finding and recording Britain's ancient trees for nearly two decades. His collaboration with the Woodland Trust and other work he's done has been covered by the BBC and the New York Times. And he's an ambassador for the European Tree of the Year contest. His passion for old trees is contagious. Recently, he's been leading a public campaign to save a tree called the Darwin Oak, as well as other veteran trees from a proposed road project near his hometown. Rob McBride: [01:44] Yeah, my name is Rob McBride, sometimes known as the Tree Hunter. I am based in a small town in North Shropshire called Ellesmere. So, very close to Wales, about a mile from the Welsh border and about 15 miles away from Shrewsbury, where I was born, which is where the Darwin Oak sits gracefully for the last 550 years. In recent times, the last 30 or 40 years, there's been a push to get almost, well, a complete circle around the county town of Shrewsbury. There is a bypass existing road, but many people with more commercial interests want to complete the circle and build what many feel is a non-necessary road. And that's the starting point, really. We don't want the road. So, on that premise, in 2010 - I think I was off work at the time with a broken wrist or something, I'd done something. So, I went and I surveyed the route and I surveyed about 80 veteran trees at the time that I felt would be affected by the route. Overall, now with the latest plans, I think they're looking at felling over 1200 trees. And when I did my initial survey, I was only on the north side of the river. Having then been contacted years later when the road project resurfaced, I went the other side of the river and met a fantastic lady called Karen Pearce, who runs Love Shelton Rough it's called, a group on Facebook. And Shelton Rough is an area where the Darwin Oak sits and grows, and it's very close to Charles Darwin's home. Obviously, coming from Shropshire, I knew Charles Darwin was from Shrewsbury. But until we had the meeting, I didn't realize how close he lived to that part of the town, Shelton. And subsequently we got talking and they said, “Oh, he just lived over there.” So, Karen and myself, we said, “Wow, Darwin lived there.” And I've had experience of naming trees like “The Oak at the Gate of the Dead” in 2006, which is now quite a famous tree. And I've written a piece this year-- last year, sorry, for King Charles there is a new book that came out. He picked that as one of the best trees in the country. So, when you name a tree - it's a very hot topic at the moment with the politicians, they're very upset. They're now calling it the “so-called” Darwin Oak. They're casting doubt about the authenticity of why it's called this. It's only just been called this recently, but you've got to name a tree at some time. So, Mike Streetly, who is a very learned chap, he visited the National Library of Wales and has found Darwin's notebooks and photographed them, where he mentions that he walked with his father in the fields where the Darwin Oak grows, looking for shells. It was all part of his many research projects over many years. Initially, he was born there and lived there till he was about 17, and then he moved away and did the expeditions and then he came back at various times. But there's documentary evidence that Darwin was traipsing around these fields and there's no doubt in my mind that a tree that would have been then 300 years plus, so a mature oak tree, a large oak tree, would have caught his attention. And it doesn't take much speculation to think of him wandering around, feeling a bit tired and having to sit underneath the shade of the tree. This tree is around 7 meters, so 23, 24 feet in circumference, in girth as we say. Well over 500 years old. It's been aged by one of the arboricultural specialists in Shrewsbury. It's a mighty, mighty impressive oak tree. But from that meeting where there were several people, Tory councilors, who spoke, the language they used to talk about nature led me to come out with the statement that, "We're dealing with dinosaurs here." I said, "I can imagine Darwin sitting under there thinking about evolution. And then, you've got these dinosaurs roaming the corridors of power." And that was a quote that the newspapers quite liked. I suspect it didn't gain me any friends in the corridors of power and the shire hall etc. We're living in one of the most nature-depleted countries here in the UK on the planet now, and we've got a duty to our kids and our grandkids to try and rapidly reverse this trend of destruction and greed. So, when you're against these people, you really do have to try and up your game. I persuaded them to call it the Darwin Oak in the end, and it's taken off really from there. And hopefully-- like we've had a painting we did in Sheffield. I took quite a famous artist, the youngest artist to ever paint Her Majesty the Queen, called Dan Llywelyn Hall, a Welsh artist, I took him to Sheffield and it was very successful. And we had an outdoor painting-- paint-off day, if you like. And there's going to be an exhibition in March for 100 artists to exhibit their Darwin Oak masterpieces. I'm hoping a friend of mine, I call her a friend now I speak to her reasonably often, is Bianca Jagger. I'm hoping Bianca will come up to open the exhibition. We'll see. I might have to go to London and pick her up. But anyway, we'll see. One ceramicist, fantastically skilled Lady Ruth Gibson, she has a studio in the town, and she took Darwin Oak leaf molds and she's produced 500 ceramic leaves with a gold flash on and all, that you can buy for 5 pounds. And they sold out very quickly, so she's doing another batch of them. So, when you have art involved with trees, it brings a different dimension to it. But there are a series of events coming. There's a Ceili, there's a dance-off. There's a legal challenge hopefully being mounted. If we can gain enough money from an appeal and the petition, if you can sign the petition at change.org, Save the Darwin Oak. So, yeah, I'd just like to say thanks very much, Doug, for the opportunity to chat here today. And number one, sign the petition. Number two, if you've got a spare pound or two, try and help the legal challenge to get the road project reviewed. And number three, we are hoping that they are not like Sheffield Council and are not going to come in the middle of the night and chop the tree down before the road has legally been given the go-ahead. We're just hoping. It's a bit of a big hope that politicians do the decent thing. But anyway, we hope they do. [music] Doug Still: [08:35] It was really cool getting to know Rob. Clearly many other people feel the same way he does about the Darwin Oak, as the petition has received over 95,000 signatures as of this recording. You can also check out Rob's other work at thetreehunter.com or @thetreehunter on Instagram. No doubt the British revere their old trees, and technically the next tree we'll hear about involves Brits too, although they were colonists in Amherst, Massachusetts, prior to independence. Guest, Georgia Barnhill, tells us about an historic sycamore there, which was one of a pair planted in the 1760’s to celebrate a young couple's marriage. Georgia Barnhill: [09:18] Hi, I am Georgia Barnhill, president of the Amherst Massachusetts Historical Society, and I am eager to share information about our groom tree, a sycamore located in front of our headquarters. The tree is an icon in the center of town. Its crown, possibly 100 feet tall, towers over town hall and church steeples, and has its own lightning rod. It's not as tall as the sycamore some miles north in Sunderland, but it has a long, interesting history. In about 1756, Nehemiah Strong built a house for himself and his wife, Hannah. The house became the property of the historical society in 1916. In 1761, Nehemiah Strong gave the house to his son, a graduate of Yale in 1756 who had returned to Amherst after studying law. We speculate that Nehemiah Strong gave two trees to Simeon when he married Sarah Wright on January 12, 1763. There was a custom of planting two long-lasting sycamores to celebrate marriages, and such trees were referred to as bride and groom trees. The groom tree, now some 250 to 270 years old, outlasted its owners by two centuries or more. The bride tree was removed in 1957 because of accumulated storm damage. The groom tree was probably a sapling even before the town of Amherst was chartered in 1759. Perhaps, indigenous people used the bark of our tree's parent as little dishes to gather berries. Once the sapling was transplanted, it continued to grow, possibly as much as 2 feet per year as the Massachusetts Bay Colony evolved into the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. After the revolution in Daniel Shay's rebellion in the 1780s, the tree flourished as Amherst Academy was established in 1814 across the road. Emily Dickinson would have seen it every day when she attended the school from 1840 to 1847. It has provided shade for countless residents and visitors, and its button balls and shed bark have been a source of wonder and enjoyment for Amherst children for generations. Preserving ancient trees is an act full of meaning. Yes, the leaves capture their share of carbon dioxide. But the existence of the groom tree also speaks to the expectations and reputation of a family. The tree recalls the Strong Family, one of the most important in the town's early history. Simeon Strong was a Tory during the revolution, but remained a respected member of the community and the commonwealth. After his death in 1805, the bride and groom trees lived on. Simeon Strong Jr. and his wife, Louisa, lived in the house from 1806 to 1841, and they too enjoyed the shade of these trees. Other families came and went. Yet, the groom tree remains. We hope our descendants will continue to revere the groom tree and to applaud the new bride tree as it grows, prospers, and watches over the activities of the historical society and the town. Recently, a grant from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts allowed for work to be done on the tree to keep it healthy and for a new bride to be planted to replace the missing one. The tree conforms to the mission of the historical society, which is to connect people to the history and culture of Amherst. Please come and see our tree. [music] Doug Still: [12:40] Thank you, Georgia. You know, I occasionally hear about the old tradition of bride and groom trees, but as far as I can tell, they are largely undocumented. I imagine many of them are still around us here on the East Coast, often with a missing partner. Wouldn't it be a great project if someone would research and collect information on them somehow? I'm talking to you, grad students. Definitely something to be proud of at the Amherst Historical Society. As a former city forester, I know how important it is to protect old trees, keep them safe and healthy, and help people overcome their fears of them. That's why I easily relate to the next story by Joe Hansen, who, like me, is an urban forester. He also hosts a show which you need to check out. It's called The Municipal Arborist Podcast. Easy to find on all platforms. He's here to tell us about an American elm that has spanned the generations. Joe Hansen: [13:35] My name is Joe Hansen, and being as I am the host and producer of The Municipal Arborist Podcast, I thought it would be fitting to discuss a significant tree from my previous role working as the urban forester for the city of Park Ridge, Illinois. I've since moved on to a role in another village. However, this particular tree will remain in my memories. The city is located in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. In fact, its southern border is adjacent to Chicago, and the tree resides in the 400 block of Wisner Street. I received a resident request to inspect a parkway tree who reported that it had a cable dangling from one of its limbs. Upon arrival, I found the tree did indeed have a cable which had snapped. The cables installed were meant to assist in structurally supporting the tree, and this tree was impressive. It was a large American elm tree measuring 67 inches in diameter, or over 17 and a half feet circumference. Its stout trunk took up nearly the entire parkway and split to four very large leads, which created the iconic vase shape that, when adjoining other elms, would create the infamous cathedral line streets which existed prior to the introduction of Dutch elm disease, which wiped out the majority of these native trees in North America by the 1980’s. We checked the state's champion tree list and no other recorded tree matched its size. Of course, I imagined they did exist, they just hadn't been documented in Illinois. I spoke to the resident named Warring, who invited me inside. I typically do not enter residents’ homes. However, he was very kind, warm and welcoming, and he seemed like he just needed some company for a little bit. He was in his late 80’s, early 90’s. He moved pretty slow, but he enthusiastically shared with me that he had lived in this home his entire life and it was at first his grandmother's home. He also shared with me some old photos of the tree dating back to the 1940’s. One of these photos was with him and his grandmother standing in front of it when he was a young child. After speaking for a bit, I eventually left and we had our contractors trim the tree and install some new cables. Several years later, I received a request to inspect the tree from the home's new residence. Unfortunately, the previous owner had passed away. The new residents were concerned of the massive tree potentially failing onto the home where their newborn slept, a concern that I have heard many times before. We went ahead and hired a consultant to perform some advanced testing on the tree, who determined it did not require removal. However, we did perform some more maintenance on the tree and installed some cables again. I shared the story of Warring with the new residents as well as the old photos I had of the tree. They were happy that the tree was still standing, as was I. But they were also happy that they can continue on the legacy of the property and this iconic tree, and they understood the importance that it had to the community. I share this story with you because often, working as an urban forester, we receive resident requests to remove parkway trees or prune parkway trees that don't require pruning because they're afraid of the tree failing on their house. Or conversely, after a tree has been removed, they don't want a new tree planted in the parkway. We often fail to realize that these trees outlive many of the residents who are living in these homes. And Warring is a great example of that, even though he had lived there into his 90s. But most homes people are only living in for a few years, maybe 10, 15, 20, when in fact, that tree may see three, four, five different residents living in that home. And that tree is an important piece to the urban forest. It is a great component of a community. [music] Doug Still: [17:31] I love that Joe is able to make that connection to the past for the new homeowners, which the elm embodies. I think an overlooked part of our job is that placemaking aspect. When planting and preserving trees helps define space and the passage of time. In a strange way, we're the guardians of history. Moving into stranger territory, sometimes trees have stories that are, well, infamous. Like Al Capone infamous. Grayson Bo Guthrie submitted this next piece that looks back at the famous criminal and a cherry planted in his honor. Grayson is a flower farmer, a florist, and also a Baltimore tree keeper. The TreeKeepers, is Baltimore's free citywide tree stewardship program, open to all residents interested in helping the city's trees. Its umbrella organization with many partners is called Tree Baltimore. Here's Grayson. Grayson Bo Guthrie: [18:28] Hi, I'm Grayson, and this is the story of the Al Capone Tree, which is this tree that grows in the Union Memorial Hospital courtyard in Baltimore, Maryland. And this tree, when you first approach it, what you notice is that it's a very bizarre looking tree. It looks like if you cut two trees in half and you paste one on top of the trunk of the other. And as it grew, that's exactly what happened. It's a scion that was taken from one tree and grafted onto the root stock of another tree. So, it's a weeping cherry tree. It has beautiful flowers in the spring. And the reason this tree was planted was because in the 1920’s, Al Capone was this raging gangster. And Al Capone contracted syphilis in his early 20’s. So, he was very, very sick by the time he was incarcerated and in his final year in prison, actually, he was just confined to the hospital ward. So, when he was released, his cronies said, “Wow, we really need to take you to the hospital, boss.” So, they brought him to the closest hospital, which was Johns Hopkins, and they said, “No, we don't treat felons. No, thank you.” So, then they brought him to the next closest hospital, which was Union Memorial Hospital, and they said yes. So, as a thank you, Al Capone's cronies planted this cherry tree. And it's actually a tree that has been cloned, and now there are several little Al Capone trees throughout the courtyard of Union Memorial Hospital. When I lived in Charles Village, the neighborhood that Union Memorial Hospital borders on, I used to take my friends on walks and tell them that story about this tree because it's such a cool tree with such a cool history. And everyone gets excited about trees when they learn about that story. [music] Doug Still: [20:47] That reminds me of a poem. “I think that I shall never see. a poem lovely as a tree that recalls a crook's STD.” My apologies, Grayson and weeping cherry trees everywhere. Thank you so much for an entertaining story. The next submission is a first for this old tree and I'm so excited. A story told to an original composition about a tree. It's by Kamala Sankaram, an exciting composer who moves freely between the worlds of experimental music and contemporary opera. She's written a number of operas, including The Last Stand for the trees of Prospect Park in Brooklyn, Looking at You, a techno noir featuring live data mining of the audience, and the Parksville Murders, the world's first virtual reality opera. As a biracial Indian American and trained sitarist, Kamala has also drawn on Indian classical music in many of her works. She's won a number of awards and grants, and most recently was performing artist in residence at Brooklyn Botanic Garden addressing the theme, Power of Trees. Here's Kamala. [music] Kamala Sankaram: [22:03] This is a story about a copper beech and the song it inspired, which is the song you're hearing right now. Hi, I'm Kamala Sankaram. I'm a composer and singer living in the Bronx, and even though I live in the Bronx now, this is not where I grew up. I grew up on the west coast in California, in a valley an hour inland from San Diego. The landscape where I grew up had a lot of scrub brush, grassland, wildflowers. And while it was beautiful, it was very, very different from the lush forests that you find in New York. I moved out here to go to school and I was immediately fascinated by this difference. The huge deciduous trees, the way that their fiery fall displays were so different from the consistent greens and browns that I grew up with. And when I moved to the Bronx, I discovered Wave Hill, which is a garden on a former estate overlooking the Hudson River. Not only did I discover Wave Hill, I discovered what I like to think of as my copper beech. The tree is to the left of the main gate when you come in part way down a grassy slope, and it's hard to miss because it's enormous. The first time I saw it was in the springtime. Its canopy was fall and a deep red color with branches that arched over to touch the ground, creating this almost perfect circle around the trunk. And I had never seen a tree that looked like that before. I was immediately drawn to it, drawn to go and sit among the roots, to be surrounded and shielded by that perfect canopy. And that is a feeling that has not left. No matter how many times I visit it, no matter how many people I bring. I like to think of it there, its silent presence across the years and centuries. And that's really where this song came from, is imagining the perspective of this tree. The song, Beech Face, because I love a good pun, is performed by me and my band, Bobby Ricky. And the lyrics are simple. Standing tall, bright red crown touch my face and time slows down. So, you think that you've seen all there is to see, but you don't know what I have seen. [Beech Face song plays] Doug Still: [25:29] Kamala, that was amazing!I know that stunning beach tree, and I can see how it would inspire music that is pulsing with energy. Keep doing what you're doing and listeners, you can find out more about her work at kamalasankaram.com. Shifting gears completely, this past summer I was at a reunion for my husband's family at a resort in North Carolina, and I had an hour to waste before the next event. So, I sat down at the pool bar and ordered a drink, and this guy sat down beside me and we struck up a conversation. Turns out his name is Lawarren Patterson and he is a retired army major general who has been all over the world and has earned a long list of decorations and service awards, too long to go into here. Who knew that we would become friends? And who knew that he has a wonderful tree story to share with the world? Lawarren Patterson: [26:26] Hello. My name is Warren. My tree story starts in 1988 in Germany. At that time, I was a young army captain, and I was fortunate to be commanding a company of 190 soldiers. My office was located on the first floor of the same building where my soldiers lived. We called it the barracks. Directly across the street from the barracks was our company motor pool, where our vehicles were stored and our soldiers worked. So, you can imagine the foot traffic that occurred all day, every day. One fine April morning, while sitting at the desk in my first-floor office, I happened to spin my chair around to look out the window and across the street towards our motor pool. Also, in front of my window, about 15 feet away, was a beautiful, large tree. It was such a beautiful day and out of the blue, I suddenly thought how nice it would be if I could work outside. Then, it dawned on me. “Hey, you're the boss. Why not?” So, I grabbed a small folding table known as a field table and a folding chair from our supply room in the basement. I set the table and chair up under the tree. I then went back in my office, grabbed my inbox, we didn't have computers back then, some pens. And I opened my window and set my desk phone outside on the windowsill so I could hear it if it rang and pick it up from my new outdoor location. The minute I sat under that tree and began to work, I felt an immediate sense of calm and relaxation. My soldiers, walking to and from our barracks building and motor pool, didn't know what to think. In fact, more than a few had asked me in passing, “Everything okay, sir?” Me sitting out under that tree a few times a week to do my work not only impacted me in a positive way, but my soldiers as well. They started talking about how different and cool it was to see the boss sitting under the tree and working. After doing this, a few weeks, various soldiers started coming over to the tree and asked why I was sitting outside and working. Then they would ask if they could sit and join me for a few minutes. My reply was always, “Yes, of course.” And they would sit down in the grass, and we would have wonderful and honest discussions about them, our organization, the military, and life. I learned so much about my soldiers and what was going on around that I started calling the tree my learning tree. That title came from a movie directed by the great Gordon Parks in the late 1960s. For the remaining 28 years of my army career, I always found the tree to sit under and work and read and converse with others. I had a learning tree during two assignments in Germany, two assignments in Korea, and assignments in the United States. Thank you for listening, and I invite you all to go out and find your own learning tree at home or at work. You will be pleasantly surprised at the positive impact it will make on you, those around you, and your organization. [music] Doug Still: [29:33] Sometimes, a small shift from normal routine can capture attention and shake up how we relate to each other, and trees have served as meeting places since time immemorial. It seems to me that's what happened under the learning tree, where commanding officers and subordinates could reveal themselves a bit more as human beings. Our last story today is an extraordinary one because it is submitted by fellow tree advocates in Ukraine. The speaker is Olena Kozak, and she is representing a nonprofit called the Ukrainian Environmental Club, Green Wave. They are a team of ecological experts and members of the environmental community whose self-described mission is to educate people, minimize negative effects on the environment, and take care of the present and future of humankind. Olena tells us about a 600-year-old oak tree in the city of Irpin, which is near Kyiv. It's amazing what they've endured and what they are doing to make our world better against brutal forces. Olena Kozak: [30:38] My name is Elena. I am a member of nonprofit organization Ukrainian Ecological Club, Green Wave, and today I will tell you the story of 600 years old oak in Irpin as a symbol of invisibility. Irpin is a picture town near Kyiv. It's known for its serene beauty, surrounded by lush forest and adorned with ancient trees, some of which have stood for over a century. However, in the year 2022, the tranquility of Irpin was shattered as Russian forces occupied the region, transforming the once-peaceful streets into echoes of unsettling shelling. During the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the city was damaged by 70%. In that anxious time, many giant trees took the brunt of the shelling, protecting houses and people. One of these trees was a 600 years old oak, which became a symbol of invisibility, a silent guardian of the town and its people. A few years prior to this event, the colossal oak faced its own battle for survival. The tree began to dry for an unknown reason. Concerned residents of Irpin initiated a tree survey and develop an action plan. Based on the results of the expert examination, it was decided that in order to save the tree, it is necessary to remove the covering, change the water and kettle, cut off the dead branches, and process the cavity and hollows. As a result, the condition of the tree improved. During its century-long history, the oak has seen many events, but it has never seen such cruelty as from the Russian invaders in 2022. Destruction and house rained all around. People, houses, trees and everything around were destroyed. In the face of adversity, the trees became a defender, symbol of hope, a beacon in the darkness of time. The Oak of Irpin become a living testament to the power of unity, resilience, and the unwavering belief in a better future. In 2023, expressing gratitude to the silent heroes, the residents of Irpin initiated an inventory and evaluation of the ancient trees. The aim was to designate them as local botanical monuments, ensuring they receive the care and recognition they deserve. The initiative symbolizes not just a commitment to preserving nature, but also a collective acknowledgment of the strength and endurance embodied by the ancient trees that had become symbols of hope in Irpin's turbulent history. Doug Still: [33:47] Wow. You've got to hand it to people who are fighting to preserve trees when they are fighting to preserve their own lives. There was a woman from Green Wave out of Ukraine named Oleksandra who spoke at a conference in Washington, DC recently, the World Forum on Urban Forests. I attended her talk, which is where I heard about this amazing group of urban foresters. She said she and her colleagues took a pause during one of their projects to ask, "Why are we doing this when there is a war going on and we are fighting for our country and our survival?" And the answer was,”Because we have to. This is what we do. This is what we do.” [music] I'd like to thank you for listening today to this collection of Tree Story Shorts. And I'd like to thank all our guests for taking the time to submit audio stories. Rob McBride, Georgia Barnhill, Joe Hansen, Grayson Bo Guthrie, Kamala Sankaram, Lawarren Patterson, and Olena Kozak, and all members of the Ukrainian Ecological Club, Green Wave. Keep checking in on Facebook and Instagram. I'll be posting pictures of many of these fascinating trees, and other information and links about them can be found in the show notes and on the website thisoldtree.show. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. See you next time. [music fades] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Europe’s Tree of the Year: The Fabrykant Oak (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 1 December 13, 2023 [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: Hello, tree lovers. I'd like to draw your attention today to a special oak tree in Poland, a Quercus robur, which we call English oak here in the United States. It was named “The European Tree of the Year” for 2023, and it resides in the city of Łódź, which I learned is correctly pronounced “Wudch” in Polish. To win, it received over 45,000 votes from people all across Europe, more than the second and third place trees combined. That is mind blowing to me, that many people tuned in and were inspired to vote for a tree. I've got one of the contest coordinators here to tell us how it all works. I also spoke to the entrepreneurial young man who nominated the oak tree, as well as the leader of Klub Gaja, the nonprofit that helped promote its cause. Lastly, the director of the environmental management division from Łódź describes how the people of the city identify with their old arboreal denizen. But clearly, it doesn't stop there, as its story captured the hearts of people across Poland and frankly, around the world. I try to find out why. Coming up, The Fabrykant Oak. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:59] “Fabrykant” in Polish means manufacturer or factory owner. In fact, the Fabrykant Oak is adjacent to a large old mill and two historic villas owned by the factory's owners that now belong to the Łódź University of Technology. So, you can bet we are going to get into some history. But first, a description so you can picture it. The tree is the centerpiece of a small park accessible by the public, and it is magnificent. One guess is that it is 160 years old, or even older, but its age is uncertain. It stands 22 meters or 72 feet high, 179 cm or 57 inches in diameter, with a spread of 30 meters or 98 feet at its widest point. The open-grown oak tree appears to have never been pruned, except probably for dead branches, allowing its lowest limbs to spread far, wide and strong. In fact, one low branch in particular is a showstopper with a curvy S shape, described as sigmoid. It extends horizontally about 72ft across the lawn, ending with an upturn over the pedestrian path, making people duck. It's as if the tree is reaching for human contact, tapping you on the shoulder to say, “Hey, notice me over here.” [03:24] People come from all over to visit for its beauty alone especially in the spring when the cameras come out to capture the tree surrounded by a carpet of blue Siberian squill blooms. Everyone I talk to mentions that. No question, the Fabrykant Oak is stunning. Is that why it received so many votes? [03:45] To get a better understanding of what the contest actually is, I spoke to Adam Golub, the coordinator of the European Tree of the Year and all of its public relations. He works for a nonprofit called the Environmental Partnership Foundation, which is based in the Czech Republic and sponsors the competition. Adam actually lives in Brussels, where he represents the organization at the EU level. He was kind enough to talk to me. [04:12] Hi, Adam. Welcome to This Old Tree. Adam Golub: [04:15] Hey, thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:17] To start off, what is the Environmental Partnership Association and what is its mission? Adam Golub: [04:22] So, the Environmental Partnership Association is a consortium of several like-minded environmental foundations or organizations. They were set up in the 90’s with the help of German Marshall Funds and the CS Mott Foundation and several other philanthropic foundations from the United States. And their mission, their individual mission of all these different national foundations and organizations is, among other things, education in the broader sense of the word. In the environmental sphere, there's a lot of emphasis on participation of the public in the decision-making processes, again as they relate to the public space or the environment, together form this association, which then in turn is responsible for European Tree of the Year. But I'm sure we'll be getting to that soon. Doug Still: [05:22] Yeah. How did the European Tree of the Year contest come about? Adam Golub: [05:26] Well, the roots of the European Tree of the Year reach all the way to a city called Brno in the Czech Republic, in Moravia, Eastern Czech Republic. Where in the early 2000’s people working in the Czech Environmental Partnership Foundation, the Czech mutation of these organizations had the idea to revive these local traditions that had to do with decorating and celebrating trees and to give it a bit of a more contemporary spin. So, in 2002, they came up with this essentially Czech Tree of the Year competition and started running it and have been running it since. Doug Still: [06:12] Sure. So, that's been going on for 23 years or 22 years. Adam Golub: [06:17] Exactly. And then as it started getting momentum in 2011, the first European level contest took place, which basically treats the national rounds, which have spread to 16, perhaps even this year, 17 countries, it treats these national contests as national rounds that select the participant trees for the pan-European. I say pan-European, the caveat being that no country is per se excluded, but it also depends on whether the country has an organization that participates. Doug Still: [07:04] So, each country needs to have their own Tree of the Year Contest first, and then the winner of that branches off into the European Tree of the Year Contest. Can more than one tree be submitted at one time? Or it's just the one tree? Adam Golub: [07:20] No, they only submit one tree at a time. Doug Still: [07:23] I see. So, this is a competition for trees with an important story. It's not just about a tree's size or beauty. It's about-- Well, what are the criteria that people vote on? Adam Golub: [07:36] You said it. If I were to really simplify it, it's about the tree with the strongest story. Now, these stories contain elements of the relationship of the communities that live in their vicinity to the environment, to nature. The stories have to also underpin some relationship within the communities themselves, or they don't have to, but they usually do. That is what is being appreciated. Doug Still: [08:08] So, it's about trees, people, and culture. Adam Golub: [08:11] Exactly. And the relationship between them. Doug Still: [08:15] How do the finalists get promoted and how do people vote? So, this is a voting competition? Adam Golub: [08:22] Yes. The organizations that nominate the trees that had organized their national rounds are also responsible for the promotion. They can do that in whatever way they wish. Social media is very popular. And there is of course also the promotion by the Environmental Partnership Association and the Czech Environmental Partnership Foundation, which more generally promotes the contest as a whole and always mentions all the different trees that compete, for the lack of a better word. Doug Still: [08:56] Right. So, there's an online-- There's a website, I bet. Adam Golub: [08:59] treeoftheyear.org is the website for anyone who'd be interested. That's the website of the European level of the contest. And then, you vote using your email. It's been always the case that everyone was supposed to vote for two different trees. So, you have the finalists from all the different European countries. And in order to avoid everyone just giving it to their tree, we included this rule that you need to choose two trees. Doug Still: [09:30] And what happens when they win? Is there a celebration? Adam Golub: [09:33] There is an embargo on the results for a while, right until the end of March. The final phase of the voting is secret as well so that no one knows who's the winner. And then, end of March or second half of March, there is a ceremony, an award ceremony, which usually takes place in the building of the European Parliament in Brussels. Doug Still: [09:57] I see. And that's where you are? Adam Golub: [09:59] And that's where I come into it. That's when it becomes my responsibility to make sure that we have the relevant members of the parliament on board, that we have the representatives of the European Commission on board, ministers. Doug Still: [10:15] That's wonderful. I bet there are great photos of these celebrations. Adam Golub: [10:19] Indeed. And what's even more important for me about them is that it's these members of the local communities that reach out and nominate their trees to the national contest that are then invited to the European Parliament and they get to meet all these stakeholders, all these decision makers or co-decision makers, and it creates rather wonderful moments and opportunities for people who would not normally meet to come together and share their appreciation of trees and nature. Doug Still: [10:55] Yeah, it's an opportunity for advocacy. Adam Golub: [10:57] Absolutely, absolutely. That is what it is. And it's one of the main aims of the award ceremony itself to create such space. Doug Still: [11:08] What is special about the Fabrykant Oak? Adam Golub: [11:11] For me, an interesting thing about the Oak Fabrykant is that it does not immediately fit the usual tree of the year profile. If you look at the different contenders, you see that more often, you find them in rural areas or sometimes outright in the wilderness. The link between them and the local community is a looser one. It's not something that you see every day necessarily, or it's not an object, the tree that you would come into physical contact with so often. The tree in Łódź is a tree in the middle of the city and the community is the whole city, one of the biggest cities in Poland, by the way, and quite a breathtaking one, especially if you know its history. And it's a city that has been through ups and downs. At some point, it would have industries compared to which some of the most memorable industrial revolution cities in the UK, would be considered local towns. Doug Still: [12:32] And it was, in fact, on the property of a factory. Adam Golub: [12:37] Exactly. This magnificent little bit of nature is part of this vibrant industrial, post-industrial mosaic that stretches for me this imagination on behalf of our Polish colleagues, what the European tree can also be about in terms of the relationship of the community and nature, by placing it outright in the most urban context you can imagine. And I think it's beautiful because you can see that even there, it still fits, and even there the story is still strong. And even there, it still makes the point. Doug Still: [13:16] Why do you think this tree has special meaning to the people of Poland? Adam Golub: [13:20] I think that this tree has a special meaning to the people of Łódź. That is an important part of it. It is understandable. As I said, it's a tree that is a symbol of a city with a rich history, one that has gone through ups and downs. It connects to a strong sense of identity. Doug Still: [13:44] So, the Fabrykant Oak symbolizes a rich urban history, one with many ups and downs. After my chat with Adam though, I of course wondered, what is the history of Łódź and what's the tree's story? When I started to do some research, I discovered something curious. Websites and articles about the new European Tree of the Year were very celebratory, but specifics about its actual history were not to be found. Whose tree was this? What was the factory next door? What took place here? Searching more, I did find that the tree is essentially sandwiched between two historic villas built around the turn of the 20th century and that still stand today as part of the park. They were owned by the Richter brothers, Joseph and Reinhold. They were factory owners and their grandparents came from Česká Lípa in the northern part of the Czech Republic, near the border with Germany, essentially Bohemia. The family built and managed several factories in Łódź, including the one near the tree, which was part of their garden. Beyond that, very little information was to be found about who Joseph and Reinhold were. I thought I'd ask Przemek Bartos, the person who originally submitted the tree as a candidate for Poland Tree of the Year. I also just wanted to meet him and find out what inspired him to do so. Major respect is due for his bravery to be interviewed in English, although it was tough to include our whole conversation. Przemek, welcome to the show. Przemek Bartos: [15:13] Welcome. Doug Still: [15:15] I'm so glad you could join me today to talk about Oak Fabrykant. Przemek Bartos: [15:19] First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting me to this conversation. So, it's a great honor for me, but it's also a little stressful situation because all my activities in Poland, I create in Polish language and my English language is still developing, but I try to be better. Doug Still: [15:49] Well, you're doing just fine. It sounds great. And sorry, I don't know Polish. Przemek Bartos: [15:53] It's no problem. [laughs] Doug Still: [15:56] Could you introduce yourself and what you do? Przemek Bartos: [16:00] Yes, of course. I am author and creator of a fan page and blog, Przyroda dla Sosnowca. In English, “Nature for Sosnowiec.” Sosnowiec is a place in Poland in the south. Doug Still: [16:14] In case you didn't catch that, Przemek is from a city south of Łódź called Sosnowiec and his fan page is called “Nature for Sosnowiec.” I'll include a link in the show notes. It translates to English. Yes. You submitted the tree. Przemek Bartos: [16:30] Yes, yes, of course. Doug Still: [16:31] In fact, this was the fourth tree he has submitted for the Poland Tree of the Year Contest and he is becoming a self-made expert on the country's historic trees. Przemek Bartos: [16:42] I am also an ecological educator and during bird counting, I am a guide. Doug Still: [16:51] Oh, you lead bird-counting tours? Przemek Bartos: [16:54] Yes, yes. Doug Still: [16:55] And do you also lead tours in Łódź? Przemek Bartos: [16:59] No, no. The Łódź is in central of Poland but I sometimes go there. In my opinion, nature has no borders. And I live in Sosnowiec and I go to Łódź and submit, for example, trees of this town. Doug Still: [17:22] I asked him what appealed to him about the Fabrykant Oak. Przemek Bartos: [17:27] For me, the Fabrykant Oak is an extraordinary tree and sometimes I think that is a multidimensional symbol. But for some, it will be an inspiration to take a beautiful photo. For others, it will be a symbol of urban transformation. But for me, when I first time saw the tree, it was a spring photo. Surrounding this tree was about a huge numerous of blue flowers. In Polish, Skrzyńskie and [unintelligible [18:06]. It's a small flower. I am a gardener and ecologist, so I decided to go there. Fabrykant Oak is a central tree of park of Łódź. The name of this park is Park Klepacza. Now, this place is Politechnika Łódźka, University of Technology in Łódź area. Doug Still: [18:37] Then, I asked him about the Richter Brothers. Now it's between two historic villas. Are you familiar with those? Przemek Bartos: [18:45] When I was looking for a lot of information about this tree, I'm looking for information about Richter Family. And the Richter Family is industrial people who built two villas in Łódź. Doug Still: [19:07] Now, you wrote a blog about this tree, right? Przemek Bartos: [19:10] When I first time saw Fabrykant Oak, I decided to describe this story. In my opinion, a lot of trees is multidimensional, is important to our area and I think that people should protect them. My blog is the platform where I create story about trees, animals, mammals. Doug Still: [19:40] When you wrote that article, did you look into the Richter Brothers at all? Any other information? I find very little information online about them. Przemek Bartos: [19:49] Yes, because the same situation is in detail with family in Poland. A lot of information about this and their family are destroyed. It is a puzzle. Doug Still: [20:02] I see, a lot of information was destroyed in the war. Przemek Bartos: [20:05] Yes, yes, yes of course. Doug Still: [20:07] Przemek's love for the tree, I would say is largely aesthetic and ecological, the beauty of nature in the city. That totally makes sense to me. But it looked like any stories connected with the Richter Brothers had been lost. He submitted his nomination for the tree to Klub Gaja, the nonprofit organization that spearheads the Polish Tree of the Year contest. Coming up after the break, I speak to Klub Gaja's director, Jacek Boźek, where we take a deeper look into the tree's connection to the past more generally. It involves the industrial revolution and the yoke's survival through Łódź’s difficult past. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: [21:10] Jacek, welcome to the show. Jacek Boźek: Oh, to the show, sounds very good. Okay. I am very happy that I can be in show. Doug Still: [21:20] Welcome, welcome. Could you introduce yourself and your organization and what you do? Jacek Boźek: [21:25] Oh, it's a long story. I suppose now, I am leader of my organization because I established Klub Gaja. The Polish name is Klub Gaja. We can say Gaia Club in English. I established this organization 36 years ago. Doug Still: [21:49] Wow. Jacek Boźek: [21:50] And it was a completely different situation because it was in communist time, and I established this organization in underground. And for us, for me and for my friends who cooperated with me, the most important thing was animals, trees, rivers, things like that. Doug Still: [22:15] Environmental issues. Jacek Boźek: [22:16] Yes, environmental and animal rights. We still work on the same level and we lead some programs, some campaigns on the environmental platform or animal rights platform. Doug Still: [22:37] And where are you based? Jacek Boźek: [22:40] Wow. [laughs] Maybe somebody will know. This is south part of Poland, very close to the border with Czech and Slovakia border, Beskid mountains, very close to Bielsko-Biała, very small village, Wilkowice. Doug Still: [23:02] Gotcha. And is Klub Gaia involved in the arts at all or is it mainly environmental? Jacek [23:10] Oh, this may be very important for ourselves, for people who worked in Gaia Club that when I was young, I was an actor of the pantomime theater and my partner is a painter and we still use theater, we still use the art for our activity. If we want to tell people about climate changes, about animal rights, different things, the art is very good platform for that and we still use art for our activity. Doug Still: [23:54] Great way to bring it alive for people, help them understand it. Jacek Boźek: [23:58] Yes. Yes. And especially if you work, and we work with the young people, we work with the schools, even with the kindergartens. And this is very useful and very easy way to involve people to social activity, because you have to show people that environment is very important. Many things are very important. They connect to each other. Doug Still: [24:32] Yes. And how did you come to the European Tree of the Year Contest? Or perhaps first it was the Poland Tree of the Year Contest? Jacek Boźek: [24:42] Have to be like that. This is a good question, because every country who are part of consent of European Tree of the Year, they meet the same competition. Maybe not the same, but the competition for the Tree of the Year on their countries. And Klub Gaja lead the competition of the Tree of the Year in Poland. Doug Still: [25:15] So, you must have been thrilled that you won. Jacek Boźek: [25:18] Wow, this is very good information. I tell people that this is not only our work, because the most important for myself, even personally, is involve people to social work. And if we make the competition in Poland, I told stories around the trees. The trees are very important for the local people. Have to be like history, culture, music, stories. Doug Still: [26:04] Absolutely. Jacek Boźek: [26:05] This is most important. I say we try to build a social movement around the trees, because for me, it's not very important that the tree is very big, very old. No. The trees need the stories, the trees need connection with people. Of course, because for more than 20 years, we have the program in Polish language called Święto Drzewa. It's not easy to translate to English, but we call Tree Day. We have in Poland more than 21 years now, and we involve the whole Poland, many local authorities, big cities, small villages, and people plant the trees, make the gardens, many different activities. And one part of our work on this program is the competition about the trees. Doug Still: [27:22] It's sort of like our Arbor Day in late April. Jacek Boźek: [27:25] Yes, yes. Doug Still: [27:27] What's special about this tree? The Oak Fabrykant that caught your attention? What's the story behind it? Jacek Boźek: [27:35] Wow, this is the really, really important tree. This is not really important tree only for Łódź. Łódź is one of the biggest Polish towns. This is a really big city. And Oak Fabrykant is a part of the whole story because this is the part of the history of the Łódź. And the most important thing for that connects with economic history of the Łódź. Łódź was a very important city for producing wool, producing things like that. Doug Still: [28:27] In the Industrial Revolution? Jacek Boźek: [28:29] Oh, yes, yes. And now this park is part of the Polytechnika of Łódź, and for many, many people it is an important tree, because one of the branch shapes is 20 meters long. If you walk to the park, you have to even look for your head. This is a really, really big branch. Doug Still: [29:03] It's between two villas. Joseph and Reinhold Richter. Jacek Boźek: [29:07] Yes, this is true, because Łódź, like you said is true, was one of the very important parts of revolution. And most of the factories was built by Germans, Russians, Jewish people, Polish people, it was very, very important place like many different interests. And the story of the tree is very connected to the story of the business people from that period of the history. Doug Still: [29:51] A short aside here. In the 19th century, Łódź was a major manufacturing center and one of the most densely populated cities in Europe. Due to its rivers and supply of water, it was an ideal location for wool and cotton mills that manufactured textiles distributed around the world, but mainly for Russia. Most workers came from rural areas to experience city life for the first time. The importance of Łódź as an industrial center is described in this newspaper article from Manchester, Britain's Manufacturing Powerhouse, published on December 30, 1895: “The most rapidly progressive industrial center in the Russian Empire, writes the daily news Odesa Correspondent is Łódź in the government of [unintelligible [30:37] in Poland, commonly and deservedly known as the Russian Manchester. 30 years ago, Łódź was little more than an overgrown village, whilst it now has a population of over 300,000 souls. In the town of Łódź, 118 factories annually produce woolen goods to the value of 28 million rubles, whilst the various products of 56 cotton mills are valued at 45 million rubles. The majority of the large manufacturers and manufacturing companies are foreigners. The old and important trade of Moscow is every year declining before the strong and successful competition of Łódź.” [31:22] Is the factory that they owned right next door or nearby? Jacek Boźek: [31:27] Yes, this is true, because most of the owners of the factories in Łódź, they built their villas very close to the factories, because all Łódź was established from nothing. It was like meadows. Doug Still: [31:50] Yeah. It was just a tiny hamlet before the industrial revolution, I understand. Jacek Boźek: [31:55] Yes, yes, but they need a lot of water to the production of wool and other things. And the Łódź was a very good place because there were plenty of streams, small rivers. And they decided, “Okay, we want to build a completely new city on this place. We want to make money," [laughs] money of course. It was the culture story like people who live on the villages in our era, they build a house very close to their fields. And many years ago, I suppose, people have the connection, heart connection, with their business. This is not like today that business is international, that you're able to make business from village in the big city like New York. Yeah. Doug Still: [32:50] Right. So, that's how the tree got its name. Jacek Boźek: [32:54] Fabrykant means, in Polish language, the businessperson, owner of the place, the businessperson who owned the big factory, fabrykant. Doug Still: If the factory owners came to Łódź to get rich, you can bet they built their fortunes on the backs of poor workers. Nowhere is this better captured than a novel published in 1899 called The Promised Land. It was written by Polish author and Nobel laureate Władysław Reymont, and it was considered one of his most important works. It was made into a famous movie in 1975 of the same name, and everyone in Poland knows it. It tells the story of three close friends as ruthless budding industrialists, a Pole, a German, and a Jew, who are struggling to find the capital to build their own factory. As portrayed by Reymont in vivid detail, it is a dark, heartless world. There is only one English translation of the novel, published in 1927. Remarkably, I was able to find it. Chin up. Here's how it starts: [music] The Promised Land reading (Maria McCauley): [34:09] “Łódź was awakening. One first shrill blast, rending the silence of the small hours, and followed by the ululations of sirens all over the town, noisier and still more noisy, tearing and ripping the air to tatters with their harsh uncouth din. With long dark bodies and slender, upstanding necks, looming out of the night, the fog and the rain, the big factories were slowly rousing up, scintillating with many aflame and beginning to live and move amid the darkness. A thin March rain, not without sleet, was falling, falling covering Łódź with thick viscid mistiness pattering upon the iron-plate roofs, pouring thence down to the pavements and the black, miry, sloughy streets, streaming down the bare tree-trunks, marshalled in low rows close to the walls and shivering in the cold and tossed about by the wind. The wind that now swept the thoroughfares, buried in ooze, now rattled and shook the fences and now tried the roofs, or again would swoop into the quagmire or howl through the branches of a tree. Borowiecki, awakening struck a light just as the alarm clock set up, a furious wearing and ringing announcing 05:00 a.m.” Doug Still: [35:40] What would have been like for the workers in the factory? What was life like? There's a book called The Promised Land. That's a famous book in Poland, right? Jacek Boźek: [35:51] Ah, Ziemia obiecana, The Promised Land. Ziemia obiecana, yeah, it was the book and beautiful, beautiful movie. Very important for us. This is the long story, because in that time, Łódź was part of Russia, it was completely different story. The Poland not existing. A very important thing, it was that different people from different nations, like Polish people, Germans, Russians, and a lot of Jewish people, they cooperate together because they want to be rich, famous. Of course, at that time, for workers, it was something-- I don't know which way I will be able to explain, because most of the people who worked in these factories, it was people from villages, very, very poor people, and they have to change their life, their culture, everything, because they move from the very simple life in villages, very poor villages, we have to know, very poor villages. Doug Still: [37:28] Farms. Jacek Boźek: [37:29] Yes, maybe even not farms, because people haven't land. They work for farmers, they work for farm owners, and they change their life. It was a very, very special culture time for this city. Doug Still: [37:50] And there was the promise of a better life, to work in a factory and earn some money. Jacek Boźek: [37:56] I suppose for those people who were very poor, it was possibility for change, maybe not their life, but life of their children, because they started completely new life for them. Doug Still: [38:21] This story hit home for me recently. I do some of my research and writing at a coworking space for writers called LitArts Rhode Island, a wonderful place for creators that even has a recording studio. It's not far from where I live in Providence. Like Łódź, Providence's population exploded during the Industrial Revolution, also with the textile trade as its major industry. Workers moved here from the farms, and there were large numbers of Irish and Italian immigrants. Mainly women performed the labor in the textile mills. LitArts is located in the old mill district in the Valley neighborhood, the factories now converted to condos, offices, and arts-oriented spaces. I decided to walk home after working on this piece. I crossed the Woonasquatucket River, essential to the functioning of the mills. It became heavily polluted during that period, and in fact, one section of it downtown was completely covered over, running underground until it reached the top of Narragansett Bay. The river has since been cleaned up, and the river daylighted, spearheading the revival of our city. Anyway, I crossed the river and walked past the old mills, imagining horse drawn carts and old trucks and groups of people and bosses shouting orders. Then, I walked up a steep street into a working-class neighborhood of triple decker homes. I thought of the scores of people making that exact same walk a hundred years ago after a long, grueling day of work, returning to a large family. Then, my brain turned elsewhere, to my third great grandmother. Her name was Clarinda Pixley, whose story I researched about 10 years ago. She was one of the famous mill girls of Lowell, Massachusetts. Dirt poor, she came from a farm in New Hampshire to work the cotton mills in Lowell. There she met my third great grandfather, Benjamin Still, who came down from Southern Quebec for the same reason. They quickly got married and escaped back to New Hampshire. In other words, I thought of people everywhere hitching their wagon to modern industry on the promise of a better life, only to experience a different, equally intense struggle. The story of Łódź is not unusual. It's universal. [music] [40:49] I wish, I wish I could pivot back to the tree in the exciting things happening now in Łódź, but not quite yet. First, a moment to acknowledge the absolute darkest period for Łódź and for Poland after the German invasion of September 1939, the horrific events that unfolded are difficult to comprehend. Under Nazi control, Polish and Jewish establishments were closed, Polish language newspapers banned, and forced labor imposed on its inhabitants. Polish intellectuals were imprisoned or killed, and Polish children were separated from their parents. Worst of all, the Łódź Ghetto was established in 1940, populated over time with more than 200,000 Jewish people from the city and from the region. People either died within its walls or sent to extermination camps. Only 877 remained to be found when the Soviets arrived in August of 1944. While there were 230,000 Jewish residents of Łódź prior to the war, only about 10,000 survived the Holocaust elsewhere. For all of those people, they must be remembered. We're taking a break. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: [42:31] After that, I think all will forgive me for skipping right to the last 10 or 12 years in Łódź, as the city is undergoing exciting changes. With new businesses, students, and arts organizations, it's a different, forward-thinking time. Trees and environmentalism underpin the city's new sense of itself. A key part of the future, says Jacek. Jacek Boźek: [42:54] This is very, very good because Łódź is one of the big cities in Poland which have plenty of forests around Łódź, a lot of beautiful forest, and this is very important. And Łódź wants to change their image for green city. Doug Still: [43:22] To find out more, I was lucky enough to speak with the city's director of environmental management, Anna Wierzbicka. Impressively, she and her division are taking on big projects. Could you introduce yourself and what you do for the city of Łódź? Anna Wierzbicka: [43:37] Yes, my name is Anna Wierzbicka, and I lead a department which is responsible for the climate and environment issues in the city hall of the city of Łódź. Doug Still: [43:49] So, you must be very proud of this tree for winning. What does the tree mean to the city? Anna Wierzbicka: [43:55] This is the 180-year-old oak, which is called Fabrykant, and it is one of the most original trees in Poland and the city's showcase. Doug Still: [44:09] It's been mentioned that Łódź is embracing environmentalism, and obviously you're very involved in that. Could you describe what you've been doing and what you hope the city could be? Anna Wierzbicka: [44:18] For me, we are saying in Łódź that Łódź is the last undiscovered city because it is a unique city in the entire Polish map, because I think that it's the only city that does not have a market. We are having the pedestrian street, which is the main street. So, if you go to Kraków or if you go to Poznań, you have a main market. In Łódź you have a main street called Piotrkowska street, which is connected with historical times because in the 19th century, Łódź was created as a kind of an economic zone, so every building was built along this street. And we were the second fastest growing city in the world after Chicago because of the fast development of the textile industry. Doug Still: [45:12] I see. And a lot of the factories were built along that street. Anna Wierzbicka: [45:16] Yes, yes. And it was like an industrial street. There is also a famous film called Promised Land, and it explains the textile and factory history of Łódź and there is a famous saying from this movie. It states, “You have nothing, I have nothing, and he has nothing. So together, we have enough to build a factory.” And this is the saying that for me is also very up to date nowadays. Because we are also involving in our city, for example, I deal with environmental issues and we do also involve business to cooperate with us in favor of nature, for example, we are doing some un-concreting actions together with business companies who nowadays they know more, they feel the essence of climate change, and they want to also involve. And this is also somehow historically dedicated, because everyone, if they started a business here, they're really connected to the city. So, this is like a natural historical for me, bond led from, I don't know, grandmother, grandfather and grand grandmother. So, it's also very unique. There's also a saying that in Łódź, everybody knows everybody. Doug Still: [46:55] Right. So, there's deep heaving work going on, removing the concrete and then planting trees. Anna Wierzbicka: [47:03] Yes, yes. We are doing lots of issues connected with climate change. We are un-concreting to put some flowers, to put some trees, and especially to focus on the retention issues, because Łódź is located on the water threat. So, we are the city that is in future in the threat of- Doug Still: [47:28] Flooding? Anna Wierzbicka: [47:29] Drought. Doug Still: [47:30] Oh, drought. Anna Wierzbicka: [47:31] Drought. We have flooding, but when there is a heavy rain, but mainly the land is very dry. So, we do everything to un-concrete, to keep the water in the surface. We are also doing some workshops for beekeepers, and also inhabitants can take part in these workshops. This is top workshop in our city. We are also doing some social campaigns for air quality. We are doing some donations for the citizens, so they can plant some trees or some other greenery, or they can also install some devices for retention, or some solutions for further retention. And finally, I think that the last project that is, I think, very worth mentioning, we call it Lamos. Lamos is a river. Because to explain you something more about Łódź. Łódź in Polish it means “boat,” exactly. This is the exact translation, the meaning of the name. But nowadays we do not have any river in Łódź, because all the rivers were put in the sewage system in historical times. So, nowadays, all the rivers that are small rivers, around 20 small rivers, they are going in the sewage system or underneath, but there are a few of them that can be taken out. So, we created a concept for one of such rivers. This is Lamos River. And we will put it out so that the water and the river can be visible. We will also-- I don't know if it can be said in English. We will meander it, means we will not make it straight. So, we will meander it, and it will be given back to people. We were also given in a special donation directly from the European Parliament. This is the only Polish project directly in the budget of the European parliament, because they saw such an incredible value of this project. Like, on one hand, the ecological one, and on the other hand, we are also doing something what we call a model of managing the water in the city. So, next to this park, where we will put the river out, there is also a street where we will put a special system only to collect rainwater. And we've already involved almost all the stakeholders on this street to put their water from the roof water to this dedicated system, to put the water also to the Lamos River. Doug Still: [50:46] The daylighting of the river made me think again of my home city of Providence and how we're discovering similar solutions to a century and a half of environmental abuse. What's remarkable in Łódź is that business has come full circle and is now part of the solution. That sounds like a wonderful project to uncover the river. It will be a centerpiece for the city, I think. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:08] Yes. Doug Still: [51:08] I love that there will be a meander, and it's complicated because you're working with so many jurisdictions, and I love that the businesses are taking part in it. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:18] Yes, I think I will not lie if I say that our city has the biggest number of business partners for eco and environmental actions involved right now. Because my department was created three and a half years ago, and during the first year, nobody cared. When I spoke with the companies and they say, “Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe someday.” But then for the last two years, we've involved 60 companies or even more. Doug Still: [51:55] Wow, that's a credit to you, I bet. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:57] I hope so. [laughter] I will not stop. Doug Still: [52:01] So, they get it. Anna Wierzbicka: [52:03] They get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially, we also had such a small square because-- I mean we do not have a big square, but some smaller squares we do have and it was also one big concrete. I spoke with one company and I said, “Oh, maybe you will be involved, so we will do something to un-concrete it.” And then the other company said, “I also want to be involved in it.” And that's how I collected six companies for this square. So, I hope that in the coming years or maybe months, it will be passé not to be involved in such actions. Doug Still: [52:48] That's right. They don't want to be left behind. Anna Wierzbicka: [52:50] Yeah, the train is already on the move, so you have to get in or you will stay behind. Doug Still: [52:57] That's right. Taking into account all that you've said, what does the presence of this tree symbolize? Anna Wierzbicka: [53:03] Strength. For me, it symbolizes strength. It also symbolizes for our city that no matter what will happen, you can survive. Because if you see the tree and it still stands and it still blossoms and it's still so popular, it's for our city. For me personally, it means that you can survive everything. We were the country which was really badly treated in the historical times after world wars, and we were also the city which was in a very difficult times after the World Wars, because all the workers, they left, and the unemployment was so big, and all the cotton workers, which were mainly women, they were out of their jobs, they had nothing to do. And in historical times, when there were also different cities with some problems, but they went to protest to the capital for the government to help them and women from Łódź they stayed home. So, we are also sometimes saying that we are left on our own, but we still had the strength to get up and to move forward and to survive. So, for me, this tree on one hand is a symbol of strength and a long-lasting journey that can be finally a journey with a victory at the end. And it also symbolizes the strength of nature, which personally is important for me. Doug Still: [54:58] Circling back to Adam Golub, the coordinator of the European Tree of the Year contest, I asked him again about its purpose. Adam Golub: [55:05] At the end of the day, it is not our aim to have a competition between countries submitting their trees. That's why the word 'competition' itself, I don't really like to use it too much in relation to the tree. And actually, if I talk about it in Czech, I usually use the word 'anketa' rather than soutěž, which would be competition. So, for me it's more of a survey, if you know what I mean. And it's about learning about those stories. That's why we have all of them there on the website so that people can actually learn a little bit about the communities and the trees and the places where they are growing. And if people understand it as such, then we've done something right. Doug Still: [55:52] And then, I asked Przemek Bartos, the original submitter and tireless promoter of the Fabrykant Oak. Check out the video he made in addition to his blog. I asked him what the tree means to him. Przemek Bartos: [56:05] For me, it's, for example, a symbol of situation when we can show that nature knows no borders, of course, but in my opinion, nature is the best teacher. Doug Still: [56:24] And Jacek Boźek had some final thoughts to share. Jacek Boźek: [56:27] It's very important what trees do in your life. When I was very, very young, when I was a child, I was very sick child. And for many, many years even, I stayed in the bed, and I saw only one tree from my window. It was a very important time when you see the tree in springtime, summertime, and then wintertime. We have really wintertime in my region with a lot of snow. And sometimes, it was only my one friend for many, many years. It was something like personality. And I feel that every tree has personality. But if you see tree like Fabrykant, big, really big, wonderful tree, and you see the power of this tree and you feel that this is the part of the history. This is something, of course, tree cannot talk to you, tree cannot tell you stories. You are able to tell the stories. Your heart able to tell the stories. And this is the witness. This is witness of our life. This is witness of our activity. Sometimes, this is witness of our tragedy and this tree is still existing. This is incredible. Normally, it's not too easy to be a European championship. We have something special. We have the beautiful, wonderful Oak Fabrykant in our city, that the trees are part of our history and a part of our future. Doug Still: [58:49] There's a founding legend of Poland. Once upon a time, there were three brothers, Lech, Czech and Rus. Because of their wisdom, they led their families and they lived in harmony. But the time came when the land could no longer feed their people. There was no game in the forests and no fish in the river. So, they met and decided to seek new lands for their tribes. Rus found the area we now know as Russia, with vast plains and rivers, and Czech found fertile land to the south. But Lech went eastward. His tribe entered dense forests full of animals and rivers that abounded with fish. Suddenly, Lech heard some noise and a huge shadow moved over the clearing. Curious people raised their heads. They saw an eagle slowly descending on a nest located in the crown of a large oak tree. In the early evening, the bird's silhouette stood out in sharp white against the red sky. "It's a sign from the gods," people shouted in unison. "It's a good omen," said Lech, smiling. "We'll settle down here and this wonderful bird will protect us." A thousand years ago, this became the coat of arms for Poland. A white eagle on a red background. And don't forget that oak tree. Through hardship, the tribe saw a sign of a better future. Every pole knows this story. Without the need for long historical explanations on websites and promotional material, I think the people of Łódź and Poland know intuitively how the Fabrykant Oak fits into their story. Its long arm has reached out to remind them to tell it to the rest of us. [Chopin piano music] [01:00:42] I'd like to thank my inspiring guests, Adam Golub, Przemek Bartos, Jacek Boźek, and Anna Wierzbicka for coming on the show. I hope I didn't completely fail in pronouncing words from your language. Please find information about them and links to their organizations in the show notes, and visit Facebook and Instagram to see some great photos of the tree that they've shared. Thanks to Maria McCauley for her reading of The Promised Land and for sharing her research into the history of Poland. David Still II was the consulting editor and D. Lee, sings theme music. The piano music you've been listening to is, of course, by the great Polish composer, Chopin. The last piece is performed by Arthur Rubenstein, born in Łódź to a Jewish family in 1887. His father was the owner of a small factory. I'm Doug Still. Join me next time for This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music fade] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Emancipation Oak (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 2 November 23, 2023 Doug Still: [00:02] On this show, a tree is never just a tree. Our story today is a good case in point about a 250-year-old live oak on the campus of Hampton University in Virginia. Stately, strong, and gorgeous, it's also a symbol of a watershed moment in American history, the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War. President Lincoln's pivotal document declared that, "That all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free." How could a tree play a role in that momentous event, at least locally? What did emancipation truly mean to African-Americans in 1863? How does the tree still inspire the hearts and imaginations of people today? Joining me to explore this are garden historian and storyteller, Abra Lee, Hampton University Professor Robert Watson, and Virginia Beach Arborist Tim Nuckols. This is the story of the Emancipation Oak. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:34] First off, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional inhabitants of the peninsula where the Emancipation Oak stands. Since the early 1600s, the Tidewater region has been populated by the Powhatan peoples who call the lands Tsenacommacah. Prior to the arrival of English colonists, the Powhatan Chieftain was made up of over 30 tribes numbering an estimated 25,000 people. I come with respect for the land where our story takes place and for the indigenous people who have and do reside there. What strikes me about the Emancipation Oak tree is how passionate people are who know about it, as you'll soon find out. When visiting it, they describe a feeling or aura around it, like that experienced near other famous objects or landmarks. Think the Mona Lisa or Washington Monument. In addition to the larger story, part of the reason is that this tree is closely linked with the work of an inspirational educator to the formerly enslaved, a free black woman named Mary Peake. Here to dig into this is my guest, Abra Lee. Abra is a garden historian, storyteller, and former city parks arborist based in Georgia. She's currently the Director of Horticulture at Historic Oakland Cemetery in Atlanta. Her degree in Ornamental Horticulture is from Auburn University, and she's also an alumna of the prestigious Longwood Gardens Fellows Program. A freelance horticultural writer and lecturer, her work has appeared in the New York Times, Fine Gardening, Veranda magazine, and NPR. Her first book, Conquer the Soil: Black America and the Untold Stories of Our Country's Gardeners, Farmers, and Growers is due out in 2025. [03:20] Hello, Abra. Welcome back to This Old Tree. Abra Lee: [03:23] Thank you, Doug. I appreciate you having me again. Doug Still: [03:26] Listeners may remember you from our “Tree of Hope” episode a while back. And I have to say you have to be one of the most popular guests we've had on the show. Abra Lee: [03:36] Oh, my gosh, I'm tickled to hear that. That's so cool. Thank you. Doug Still: [03:41] You suggested the Emancipation Oak as a tree to feature, and it's been fascinating learning about it, and the background for this story. Have you been speaking about it for a while? Abra Lee: [03:52] I have. I have known about the Emancipation Oak. I don't even remember when I first learned about it. My mom is or was, she's passed away now, but she is a retired history teacher and attended historically black colleges and universities. And that was my first knowledge of the Emancipation Oak at Hampton University. Learning about it, hearing about it as a child through her, and also having relatives and friends that attended Hampton University in Virginia. Doug Still: [04:24] Yes. I was going to say the Emancipation Oak is a live oak on the campus of Hampton University, which is a prestigious historically black college in Hampton, Virginia. You got a chance to go there recently. Was that the first time that you've ever seen the tree? Abra Lee: [04:42] The first time I saw the tree was when I was 18 years old on college visits. That was the first time I actually saw it in real life. This was the second time. But back then, I didn't understand. I didn't know I was on a road to horror culture or vore culture or any of those things. So, it did not have the meaning. Certainly, I didn't have the understanding of it that I have today. I was able to see the tree recently when I was on a trip to Norfolk, Virginia to speak at the Norfolk Botanic Garden at their Heritage Day celebration, which may be interesting to your audience because in the late 1930s, there were 220 African-American men and women, 200 black women, 20 black men, that did the groundwork and laid the groundwork for what is now the Norfolk Botanic Garden. So every year, they have a Heritage Day celebration and a beautiful statue, a huge, tall, maybe 20-foot statue of a black woman with a shovel wearing her WPA skirt and shirt, and it's called Breaking Ground. So this area is incredibly rich outside of the Emancipation Oak with black garden history in America. It's stunning. Doug Still: [05:54] That sounds fantastic. I'd love to visit. That was a WPA project? Abra Lee: [05:59] That was a WPA project. And so, this is certainly a public garden that is credited with being started by black people, which is really, really incredible. Doug Still: [06:10] I love that. I love that. Could you describe for our listeners the Emancipation Oak in your own words after seeing it recently? Abra Lee: [06:19] Sure. It is as you stated earlier, Doug, it's a live oak. It really branches out and has these long outstretching, dare I say, tentacles that touch the ground. And it is surprising at-- you look just in the background of it and there's the highway behind it, like the bridge going over the road. It is also a tree that in many ways can be blank, you missed it. You turn onto the campus of Hampton university, and the tree is to your left or at least it was to my left, the way that I came in. But honestly, anyone entering the campus from that way, it would be on your left and it is set back. So, there is a grass strip and a parking lot and then another grass strip surrounding the tree. So, you may not even notice that it's there. It's so surprising. I really don't know if I feel like that's a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe it's a great thing because it keeps it. Doug Still: [07:21] People leave it alone. Abra Lee: [07:23] Right. Exactly. Certainly, and let me be very clear, the students of Hampton University, the community there, the professors, the administration, they know what it is. It is incredibly important to that community. It is just this incredible, important monument. Doug Still: [07:39] Is there a fence around it? Abra Lee: [07:40] There is a fence around it. There's a big metal fence around it. So the tree is protected. You can't just walk up to the trunk of the tree, but you could reach your arm out and touch a leaf of the tree. There were acorns forming on the tree because I was there in September of this year, and there is signage around the tree that discusses a very-- it discusses, I think, very beautifully and very briefly a complex story surrounding the tree and its rich history. When I approached the tree, I felt like, "Wow, this is the Emancipation Oak." I can feel it. I felt the only time I ever maybe or I don't want to say the only time, Doug, but a similar time I felt that way was on the campus of Tuskegee University, another historically black college university HBCU in Tuskegee, Alabama, where you're walking up just casually right there next to the sidewalk is Booker T. Washington's grave and George Washington Carver's grave. And honestly, you can't believe it. It gives you chills. So this tree, knowing its history, knowing its legacy, I felt that type of excitement and just felt taken aback by it. Doug Still: [08:49] Could you describe where it is? Where's Hampton, Virginia? Abra Lee: [08:52] Hampton, Virginia is in the Tidewater area of the state of Virginia. So it's on the coast of Virginia, and it's on this rich peninsula of water where enslaved African-Americans or enslaved Africans are entering the Americas. Very early on. We're talking 1600s. So, Virginia, in terms of its connection to black garden history, to black tree history is very significant because of its positioning, and it being one of the first colonies in the United States. So, there has been a long history and a black community that has been there for centuries that has thrived and absolutely contributed to the stories and histories of American horticulture. Doug Still: [09:43] Virginia was a slave owning state that sided with the Confederates during the Civil War. Early on, however, Hampton and the adjacent Fort Monroe, located at the end of this peninsula at the mouth of Chesapeake Bay, came into the hands of the Union Army. The location became a destination for escaped formerly enslaved people who sought safety and had nowhere else to go. In fact, it was the first self-contained community of African-Americans in the United States. Here to explain its importance is Robert Watson, Professor of History in the Department of Political Science, History, and International Studies at Hampton University. He's had a distinguished career in teaching, nearly 50 years as a matter of fact, 27 of them at Hampton, with stints as a Museum Director and also Director of African-American Interpretation at Colonial Williamsburg. [10:37] Well, Professor Watson, welcome to the show. Robert Watson: [10:40] Thank you. Glad to be here. Doug Still: [10:41] So nice to have you here. I'd like to dig into Hampton, Virginia and the history of the site, and I'd like to ask you about the site prior to the Civil War. What was Fort Monroe and what was the Grand Contraband Camp? Robert Watson: [10:58] Okay, thank you for a great question. Fort Monroe was actually built where the construction started around 1819, but it's actually located on what was formerly a place called Point Comfort, which is like a little community, a peninsula rather. And so prior to Fort Monroe, it would have been an area that would have been inhabited by indigenous people with the Chesapeake Bay right in the background, so to speak. Doug Still: [11:33] So leading up to the Civil War, who lived there? Robert Watson: [11:39] Mainly leading up to the Civil War, this area, what we are talking about, would have been African Americans would have been here. There would have been a merchant class of white Virginians, as well as other Virginians who would have lived in this area and would have made their living primarily from the sea. Doug Still: [12:01] What was the Grand Contraband Camp? Robert Watson: [12:03] The Grand Contraband Camp was an area of Hampton where after the Emancipation Proclamation and even before, to be very frank, were housing. But not just housing, but where people live. Refugees, so to speak, would make that their home here. Not only in downtown Hampton, but also at Fort Monroe. It's one of the largest contraband camps in the south. There are other ones like New Bren, North Carolina had these huge camps where runaway slaves would feel comfortable or at least would feel safer because– Doug Still: [12:54] They were protected there. Robert Watson: [12:56] They were protected. And the interesting thing about that, Doug, is that that's where we really get the first understanding of what contraband meant, because normally contraband means an article seized in war. And in this case, you have black people who refuse to go south, because they would have been used to build a fortification for the Confederates. So, they decided to go those places where at least there was some protection that was provided by the United States Union Army. Doug Still: [13:36] It sounds like a demeaning term, but in fact, at the time, it was a way for the north or the Union Army to say, "We're not required to send these people back to you," to the south, or to their owners." And so, in that way, technically, it was some modicum of freedom? Robert Watson: [13:59] Yes. That’s exactly right. Because there was no certain federal policy about what to do with the fugitives who were running away, this was, in fact, a stopgap measure. But at the same time, by protecting them, it made many people in the north or some people in the north think that they were no longer just straddling the fence over the issue of slavery. It appears that by having a contraband camp or providing a modicum of protection convinced many black people and many of the abolitionists in the north that this was a good thing. It was not certain, but it was better than the previous condition of servitude. Doug Still: [14:53] Even before the war, African Americans in Hampton, not only desired peace and safety, but also in education. We're going to take a short break, but when we return, we'll find out about one woman who risked her life in order to teach them. Mary Peake. You're listening to This Old Tree. [song] Abra Lee: [15:36] In this location before the Civil War, specifically at the Emancipation Oak where this tree is, this is where a woman who your audience will have to get to know her name and her story. Mary Peake enters the picture. This is a black woman whose mother. She is a free black woman, Mary Peake is. Her father is an Englishman, her mother is an enslaved black woman, and she is going against the law. She is risking it all to teach what is called "contraband." Meaning, enslaved black people how to read, how to write. She is teaching them. She establishes a school in a protected way. And Mary Peake is a brilliant woman. She is known to be highly educated. She is taking a risk herself to teach these escaped enslaved people how to read, how to write, how to be educated in the United States. And so, under this treat, between May of 1861 and August of 1861, we don't know the exact date, but we can narrow it down to those few months between May and August of 1861, the first class of Mary Peake is taught under this tree. And also, it should be noted that this is credited in historical documents that I have read as being the first public school for black people. So, we have to credit the Tidewater area of Virginia and Hampton and its campus for that as well, because that's incredibly significant. Doug Still: [17:14] Right. It's considered the historic start of Hampton University, isn't it? Abra Lee: [17:18] It is. And the tree in Hampton, we cannot understate or underscore how hallowed ground it is to American education, to black communities, and to American tree history. Period. She is born a free black woman, so she could just go on mind her business, Doug. Say, you're on your own, y'all. I know how to read and write. But hey, rest of you figure it out on your own. But she doesn't do that. She chooses to risk it all. I think that that's very important, and I think that something has to be bold that she could have just accepted her position as a mulatto. Meaning, at that time, a biracial black woman with a white Englishman father, with a black mother, who could have lived a very--I can't say comfortable. That's why I'm stuttering on my words here. This is still a black woman in America in the 1860s. But she could have lived a relative life of privilege compared to other black people. She could have just done that and not look back. But she understands the privilege she holds with this knowledge, with this education, and that she has a moral obligation to pass this on to her people. So that is who Mary Peake is. And to do that, that means you're risking, not just your life, the life of the people you're teaching. At this time, education is illegal. Doug Still: [18:39] And it's the key to a better life, whatever that may be at the time. Abra Lee: [18:45] It is. I'm not sure if we have time to get in this today, but this story and discussing it with you and seeing that tree, it just really makes me think about in many ways, I would love to have a broader discussion about trees and the canopy of trees being these spaces. I don't know if I want to say coliseum or these umbrellas of teaching in America and throughout the world. Like, the connection to the trees and education is a real one, and it is a gathering place where people are learning. Doug Still: [19:13] Right. With canopy and protection and the ability to focus on what you're talking about, whether [crosstalk] lessons or discussion. Abra Lee: [19:22] Absolutely. I think it's also interesting. So, Mary Peake starts this cool 1861. She first teaches it under the tree. Then she moves it to her home, which ends up being burned in 1861. And then essentially or not essentially later, a school is built within relative proximity to this tree. Robert Watson: [19:47] Mary Peake is a very interesting lady. I wanted to share some of the information I had learned about Mary Peake. She was born in 1823 and she died in 1862. Her father was an Englishman. Her mother has been described as a light skinned, free black woman from Norfolk, Virginia. Mary Peake went to school in Alexandria, Virginia. And then she came back to Hampton, and she learned how to support herself by making clothes and teaching in Hampton. While she did not live a long time, her life, her experiences, her work speaks for itself because she was the first teacher, as we know, who instructed free blacks and others under the Emancipation Oak or at least somewhere near the Emancipation Oak. What is not true about her life is that we've often been told that she read the Emancipation Proclamation to the enslaved population on the 1st January 1863. Well, we know that's impossible because she died in November of 1862. Doug Still: [21:18] Right. Robert Watson: [21:19] That's one of the things with history. One of the things I try to teach my students is be factual. Give the correct information. You don't have to make up stories about slavery, in particular. Tell the truth, because the real stories are actually much more intense. And in many instances, the story for people who were enslaved is real. Mary Peake also received the support of a lot of white women in the north, and that wouldn't be the first time either, because people like Prudence Crandall, who you might be familiar with, was a white woman who operated a school, I believe in Philadelphia, Boston. But this was a common thing for white women who were fighting for their own rights to get involved with the abolitionist movement, as well as the women's movement and also the temperance movement. And so [audio cut] respected people like Mary Peake. Doug Still: [22:27] How might they have known each other? Robert Watson: [22:29] Because in those days, people wrote and they heard about things that other people were doing, certainly writing. This is something that Lockwood makes reference to is the strong communication between different regions of the country. Doug Still: [22:52] Let's talk about who Reverend Lockwood is. Robert Watson: [22:54] He is a missionary who was sent to Fortress Monroe. And it was there that he was able to meet some of the children who Mary Peake taught. So he is, for lack of another-- well, put it use of another term, I would describe Lockwood as being philanthropic, as well as being a missionary, and one who was definitely took abolitionism to a way of thinking that many of his contemporaries also did as well. Doug Still: [23:35] And he wrote this piece, I don't know what it was for, called Mary S. Peake: The Colored Teacher at Fortress Monroe. Robert Watson: [23:43] Yes. Doug Still: [23:44] In 1862- Robert Watson: [23:46] Yes. Doug Still: [23:47] -which is the source that we have for her life and the situation at the time. Robert Watson: [23:52] Right. Doug Still: [23:53] Here is a passage from Reverend Lockwood's book, in his own words, describing the establishment of the school in Hampton, Virginia with Mary Peake at the helm. Rev. Lewis Lockwood quote: [24:03] "The religious and educational part of the mission has been one of blessedness and promise. And in this, as in everything else, I have aimed to teach self-development. In connection with the gathering of the people in religious meetings, I proposed to commence Sabbath and week-day schools, with such teachers as I had at hand. Meanwhile, some of the children of the vicinity, getting perhaps some hint of my intention, or prompted by an impulse from on high, called on Mrs. Peake, and requested her to teach them, as she had taught the children in Hampton. It was with much gratification that I learned this request. I soon found from observation, as well as information, that we had in her a teacher of the choicest spirit, and of peculiar qualifications. She was happy in having pupils as ready to learn as to request instruction. Her school numbered at first only about half a dozen, but in a few days she had between fifty and sixty. These scholars were found to have generally very fair intellectual capabilities, and a few evinced quite rare talents. Among these was her own little daughter, five years old, named Hattie, but familiarly called by the pet name of Daisy. She learned to read simple lessons fluently in a very short time. Others also exhibited a precocity which from day to day rewarded and stimulated the ardor of this devoted teacher." Doug Still: [25:31] Why do you think teaching motivated Mary Peake? Robert Watson: [25:35] I think teaching motivated Mary Peake, because she understood that literacy and the ability to read was an important steppingstone for people who were certainly one day going to be free. But it's a belief that black people still believe in, and that is that literacy and education is the steppingstone to mobility, and that if you can read, your chances of having a better quality of life is greatly increased. And so, I believe that's why she was motivated to teach night school, night classes. And that kind of motivation took her down, so to speak, because Booker T. Washington, who was one of probably Hampton Institute best known alumnus thought that reading and writing was important. Doug Still: [26:42] Yeah, it was obviously something that she had and wanted to share. Robert Watson: [26:46] Absolutely. Doug Still: [26:47] And it opened doors for her. Robert Watson: [26:49] Yes, it did. And it still does. That's why our university here tried to prepare our students to be lifelong learners so they can use whatever they learn here in Hampton to make the broader community a better place for everybody. And so, that's coming from the legacy of Mary Peake. Doug Still: [27:18] You mentioned that there were other teachers, which is a good point. She wasn't the only one, right? Robert Watson: [27:25] Right. No, she wasn't. Doug Still: [27:26] I bet there must have been others. She is the one that we talk about the most, I think? Robert Watson: [27:32] Right. I think she's the one we talk about the most. But you're right. She certainly was not the only one. I was reading in the Lockwood book, the introduction, and it said, "By the end of the Civil War, there were more than 900 teachers in the south, and an estimated 200,000 free slave had received instructions in the rudiments of literacy." Doug Still: [28:01] Wow. Robert Watson: [28:02] That's a huge number. After the Civil War, particularly during Reconstruction, is when you see a great increase in the number of students who are attending some of the first HBCUs, the Historically Black Colleges and Universities long before the Moral Act, which added state institution for black students. You have this great increase in the number of people who are going to school, and they are going to schools that have a particular name like Hampton Agriculture and Normal Institute, which meant that these are people who are being trained to not only be good with their hands, but they also are teachers. They come to school, they get a degree, and they go back into their communities, and they use what they've learned to help prepare the next generation. Doug Still: [29:01] Now that number that you gave, is that post-Civil War or prior to the Civil War? Robert Watson: [29:06] That is post-Civil War. Doug Still: [29:08] Mm-hmm. Robert Watson: [29:09] Post-Civil War. Doug Still: [29:09] Now, previous to the Civil War, it was illegal to teach, wasn't it? Robert Watson: [29:13] That's correct. But you know what's interesting though is that, it was not illegal until shortly after 1831. Individual slave owners wanted their slaves, particularly during the colonial period, to be able to have some education, so they could carry out the orders of their masters. But these were small numbers and were done on an individual basis, as opposed to what happened in 1831, which was Nat Turner's rebellion. And after Nat Turner's rebellion, slave owners in the south decided that, "If a slave can read, they can use that interpretation of the scripture the way Nat Turner did to become the Moses of their people." So, teaching a slave or teaching an enslaved person how to read and write after 1831 became state policy. Doug Still: [30:20] And that was in all states? Robert Watson: [30:23] That was in all the states. I say, all the states in the south. Yeah. Doug Still: [30:28] So we're in the Civil War, it's 1863, and President Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation, I think, in January. Robert Watson: [30:38] Correct. Doug Still: [30:39] What was the Emancipation Proclamation? Robert Watson: [30:41] The Emancipation Proclamation was probably one of the most important documents, one of the most important acts, executive order in the history of the United States. Because every other order leading up to the Emancipation Proclamation supported slavery, at least in theory, in an action. If you go back just for a moment and look at the Declaration of Independence, it protected slavery, even though Jefferson and his Committee of Five intent were to bother slavery and the slave trade, but because slavery, the economic backbone of the country, it was supported by the colonies. And then you have the Constitution, which also supports slavery, particularly with those three articles in the Constitution, the Compromise, the Fugitive Slave Law, and the Continuation of the Slave Trade for 20 years. And then the Missouri Compromise, then the Fugitive Act of 1850, all of these support slavery. By 1860 though, Lincoln realized that and it's in his quote, "A house of virus against itself cannot stand." There were people who like Lincoln, who I will say was a scientific racist like his hero, Thomas Jefferson, believed that our country would not survive if we continued to support slavery. Lincoln was astute enough to look at other institutions of bondage around the world and see that even changes were taken there like in Russia, where Alexander II abolished serfdom, where he had seen on the horizon. Actually, he'd known that it had been abolished in the Constitutions of most Latin American countries. And here we are in this country, a country of some four million black folks, Lincoln certainly understood, "I believe that it was time to do something." Now he wasn't that enthused about doing it. Because remember, South Carolina leaves the Union in 1861. Lincoln felt that the war was only going to last about three months, and so he asked Congress to appropriate enough money to raise an army of 100,000 men. But during those three first two years, the north is not winning a single battle. And so Lincoln is being urged by some of his rivals who were part of the 1860 political season, they're urging him to do something. Frederick Douglas is saying, "If you don't do something to make this war a national issue, then it's very possible that the south might win this war." And so Lincoln decided with a lot of encouragement from Frederick Douglass and Henry Highland Garnet and Harriet Tubman and others that he had to do something. So he wrote this preliminary draft of the Emancipation Proclamation shortly after the Union wins a victory at Antina. Doug Still: [34:48] Was that July or August of 1962 somewhere that summer? Robert Watson: [34:53] No. September. Doug Still: [34:54] September. Robert Watson: [34:55] Right. He wrote it in September, and it sat on his desk until the 1st January, 1863. So, I would say maybe a short answer to the question is that, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as an act of military necessity and not as an act of humanitarian concern. Doug Still: [35:16] It also allowed black people to serve in the Union Army- Robert Watson: [35:21] That’s correct. Doug Still: [35:21] -which was another reason, I believe. Robert Watson: [35:24] That's a very good point. It did encourage black people to serve in the Union Army, and it also allowed us, as historians, to appreciate the fact that black people wanted to be agents in their own liberation, which is what Douglas said, "Give a black man a weapon, and he will defend himself." And therefore, Lincoln saw all of that. Reluctantly, he issued it, and it also became a rattling cry for people in the north who were somewhat straddling the fence whether they supported or were against slavery. Doug Still: [36:14] What were the limitations of the Emancipation Proclamation? Robert Watson: [36:17] It did not freeze slaves in all the states. It only frees the slaves in the states that rebelled and left the Union. And in some states, it only allowed slaves in some counties to continue to be enslaved. It also helped the fact that-- What helped Lincoln is that the border states where slavery existed in Kentucky and Maryland who have Washington, D.C., but West Virginia and Delaware remained in the Union. But in those states, there were about 700,000 slaves. But the fact that those states remained in the Union was good for Lincoln because Maryland decided to leave the Union militarily that would have certainly brought a whole different perspective as to how much longer the Union would have lasted with the Nation's capital being surrounded by the Confederates. Abra Lee: [37:25] Now, at this point, it is not yet called the Emancipation Oak. That happens about two years later, in January of 1863. Under this treat, newly freed African American students listen as the Emancipation Proclamation is read out loud. This is essentially the document that officially and legally ends slavery in the United States. I want to be very clear, there are scholars who are experts on the Emancipation Proclamation document just as they are on the United States Constitution. But summing it up for the Tree audience, we just want to make clear that that's what that document is in 1863, and also add, Doug, to your audience that this does not account for Juneteenth. And it being June of 1865 when the message gets to the enslaved African Americans in Texas that slavery is over. So, there is a long two-and-a-half-year gap there before all black people in the United States are notified that slavery is over. But the first Southern reading of this document happens under this live oak tree in Hampton, Virginia. It's issued under the administration of Abraham Lincoln. This is his work. It's his document. And I also want to say, in many ways, it is a failed promise to a lot of black people in America. So that's how I feel about it in my own words. I am basing that comment that I'm saying to you on having read Up from Slavery, Booker T. Washington's autobiography, and Booker T. Washington himself, being a student of Hampton University, being this great orator of America, and being handpicked as a former student of Hampton to be the first black President of an HBCU at Tuskegee. So there is a forever permanent Hampton Tuskegee connection that arc there. So back to his autobiography. I, for pretty much all of my life, looked at the Emancipation Proclamation as this document where it's read, enslaved people are free. And that was very– Doug Still: [39:45] It was a declaration. Abra Lee: [39:46] It was a declaration, Doug. That's all it is. Because not just him, he's not the only one that says this, but he definitely makes a point of saying this in his biography, "When this document is read, yes. Is this declaration that black people are free? Yes, Anne." So, the reality is when he also talks about our older black enslaved people, people who might be in their 8th or 9th decade, this document is read, but where are you going to go? You don't own any land, the clothes on your back aren't yours. So quietly and slowly, after this document is read, there are still many black people who go back to the plantations, back to the big house, back to whatever their former masters were, because at this point, slavery is illegal, and still have to work for them and have this relationship. So it's complicated. It's read as this thing that freed the slaves, but it doesn't really free people because there's still nowhere to go. You don't own anything, you don't have anything. Doug Still: [40:48] Right. It must have been incredible to hear for the first time, however, just in a symbolically. Abra Lee: [40:55] Absolutely. So, let's speak to that as well. Even in my own family, and obviously-- I'm speaking from my own experience. In black families where oral history is important, the story that is shared within my own family that I've known since I was a child, My great-great-grandmother, [unintelligible [00:41:16], a beautiful woman. I'm so proud that we even have a picture of her, like a real photograph of her, she was 12 years old-- In 1863, she was on the Purifoy plantation in Upson County, Georgia, when the Union soldiers came. She was milking a cow. That is the way that it is told in my family, as told to her children and her grandchildren, who were my great aunts. Meaning, I knew these women in my life, my grandmother's sisters. And she was milking a cow, and the Union soldier came and took the bucket out of her hand and let her know that the war was over and that the Emancipation Proclamation had been read and slavery had ended. So, this is an important message. Doug Still: [42:00] She hadn’t heard until the end of the war. Abra Lee: [42:02] Exactly. Doug Still: [42:02] The Emancipation Proclamation was a couple of years earlier. Abra Lee: [42:06] Exactly. And I've never known the month in my family when she is told, but the origins of freedom in the [unintelligible 00:42:17]-- My last name is Lee, but this is on my mama's side, the [unintelligible [00:42:15] family. The origins of freedom in my family start with the story of [unintelligible [00:42:20], my great-great-grandmother, and that happening. It's important, because that's where I would say act two of the legacy of my family starts from being enslaved to now free black people. Doug Still: [42:38] What a great story. Abra Lee: [42:40] Thank you. Doug Still: [42:41] When we returned from another break, Professor Watson and Abra Lee describe the anticipation people felt leading up to the release of the Emancipation Proclamation, what we know about the event under the famous tree and efforts to preserve the tree’s legacy. You are listening to This Old Tree. [song] Doug Still: [43:22] Getting back to Hampton, then house was the news of the Emancipation Proclamation distributed across the country? Was Hampton one of the first places that people heard about it and how did people know about it? Robert Watson: [43:41] Well, excellent question. Thank you. The news of Lincoln going to do something special was on the grapevine. People were talking. And some of the people who were talking worked in the White House. One woman who worked in the White House and who was a Modis, that is, she made ball gowns for Lincoln's wife, had begun to talk to people about this event. And so that event becomes like the grapevine that Lincoln was going to do. By the way, the woman's name was Elizabeth Keckly. And Keckly has spread the news. The grapevine in the black community has always been a very powerful internet. As this sits on Lincoln's desk, people who were traveling, people who own boats are sharing that information. They go from one place to the next place. So, the word is out. So much so that in places such as Hampton, the night before-- Now you brought this up earlier, Doug. The night before, black people began to do something that they had not done before, and that was celebrate by having, what we call, a Watch Night service, where people went to church, they went to brush arbor[?] where people were praying away from their slave masters, they were praying that Lincoln would follow through on his promise, on his act, rather. They were hoping that that would become reality the next day. And so, the next day, the first reading from what I've researched of the Emancipation Proclamation, the first public reading, was at the Emancipation Oak here in Hampton. There's no record that I've seen that will tell you how people heard about it at that point. But if we look at the way news spread it during those days, generally what happened is that people would come to a place, stand on a stump or they would stand on a box, and then they will share whatever it was they were reading with the public. And so, the jubilation comes at that point. One of the ink pens, by the way, that Lincoln used to write the Emancipation Proclamation is housed in the Hampton University Museum. So, when you visit our campus, you'll be able to see what's called the Pen of Liberty. Doug Still: [46:36] Wow, that's great to have in the collection. Robert Watson: [46:38] Yes, indeed. Doug Still: [46:40] Could you describe the Watchnight service a little bit? Robert Watson: [46:43] Oh, yeah. Doug Still: [46:44] Did it happen nightly? Robert Watson: [46:46] No, it actually happened on the last day or the last night of the year. It's something that's still celebrated where people go to church, and they pray, and they bring food. They are praying and asking for God to make the next year better than the previous year. Doug Still: [47:09] So this happened on December 31st. Robert Watson: [47:11] Right. December 31st, throughout the country. And that's what's so amazing about it is because not to have the telephone or even the telegraph at one disposal really does give you some idea as to the power of the word and how it spread, how it spread it rather. So, people are playing music, they're singing songs, food is being prepared. And that food that's being prepared, that recipe that's prepared for people to consume that night and also the next day, it also has a lot of traditions. Certain types of food, for example, particularly turnip greens, collard greens, seasoned with a pork ham hocks. ham, sometimes pigtails, pig ears, sweet potatoes, candy yam. I'm making myself hungry here. Doug Still: [48:12] That's right. [laughs] Robert Watson: [48:14] But those are the kinds of things that happen on Watch Night. And later on, I learned from my parents that some family will put a penny into the food, and that penny was an indication, "Look, I got a penny this year, but I hope this coming year, I won't have much more money." So, it's in there as a good luck charm. Doug Still: [48:40] At the Watch Night Service in 1862, it's in the air that there's this document on Lincoln's desk. And was that incorporated in some of the services? Is there any documentation from that or just we know that that's probably what happened? Robert Watson: [48:59] We know that that's probably what happened. I have not seen any documentation on it. And here, I think, is the importance of oral tradition, because normally, as you would know with traditional history, if it's not written down, then some people think it's not credible. But with people who are not literate in terms of writing or a tradition is in fact as legitimate. Doug Still: [49:30] That makes a lot of sense. Robert Watson: [49:32] And one must almost also, here's where you have the opportunity. One has opportunity to talk about Africanisms that have been retained by African Americans throughout the diaspora. Because people are coming from societies in Africa where writing was not the most important thing, but being able to tell a story and that story get passed on became part of tradition that was retained here in the Americas. I've done research and read stories about people who were concerned that he was not going to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Some people believe that it would be, as it always was, a promise, but an empty promise. The fact that Lincoln followed through is one of the reasons why even today, Lincoln is acknowledged as the great President, because he followed through. Furthermore, Lincoln's legacy of being a great emancipator was actually carried forward in a more aggressive way than it was by white Americans who do not see Lincoln as this great heroic figure that black people see him as. Abra Lee: [50:57] Prior to this happening, there's a buzz going around. You go to the enslaved person that's charged with carrying the mail to take it to the post office, they're hearing and getting word that something's going on. So, something is brewing in America, and the black people are knowing that the end of slavery is coming. They're just not knowing when. But it's like the word in the street, the telephone game, maybe you play when you were a child. They're not unaware that it's going to happen. They just don't know when. So when Lincoln makes this declaration, I don't want to say it's a full surprise. I think it's certainly a day that many of them never thought they would see, but many of them also know it's coming. Doug Still: [51:38] But likely it could have been a soldier? Abra Lee: [51:41] Yes, and they're hearing the soldiers talking, because still black people are enslaved, which makes us, in many ways, invisible. Now, just because it may not be legal for you to read and write, that don't mean it's illegal for you to hear. So they're aware. They're looking around, they're hearing things, they know that this document is coming. And yes, indeed, the Union soldiers are the ones reading this document. That is a fact. And it wasn't just read by one person. This is a document that's issued by the federal government through the Lincoln administration. So, the message is passed very quickly. Now super quickly among black folks. All it took was one of us to hear it, and we carried that message right on down from Virginia to Georgia, Alabama, and beyond. We were not messing around. So no one spread it quicker than the black people in America at the time. Doug Still: [52:31] It was clear there was something symbolic about reading it under this tree, however, in Hampton. Abra Lee: [52:36] Oh, for sure, because this was a tree-- Trees are gathering spots, right? This tree, being a place where the first unofficially public black school in America is held this significance with Mary Peake, who also doesn't live to hear-- Though she's born a free black woman and she is a free black woman, she's teaching these enslaved black people who have escaped from slavery on the run, and she does not live to hear this Emancipation Proclamation read. Doug Still: [53:09] Is that right? Abra Lee: [53:10] That's right. She passes away in 1862 of tuberculosis. Doug Still: [53:15] The year before. Abra Lee: [53:16] That's right. The summer before, about, I believe it's August of 1862. So she herself doesn't even get to witness this document being read. But again, back to the lead up of it, we have to believe that she's aware that something is happening. The Civil War, American history is, there's just no ever clear, simplified answer to anything, Doug. And so it is an open dialogue. That's why I love how you use trees as your ministry to have these real conversations that relate to our history. It's not as straightforward as it can always seem. I'm not calling one right or wrong. We're just saying it is what it is. And trees have a part in this. Trees play a role in this as well. Doug Still: [54:06] Were there a lot of people there? Robert Watson: [54:08] According to the record, there were hundreds there. It appears from the research that there were hundreds of people there, and that's based upon this area having a large population of people right at Fort Monroe or Fortress Monroe, and also in downtown Hampton. Doug Still: [54:28] Wow, what a day that must have been. Robert Watson: [54:30] I read somewhere, one of the historians who I read mentioned that it was a woman who learned that she had been free. And the jubilation, the joy of knowing that she was free is something that is hard for me to fathom, because I cannot imagine having been enslaved. I cannot imagine on that day when people receive the idea that the order that they had been freed and then saying to themselves, "I can go find my brother, I can go find my sister, I can go find my husband or my wife, because that's what I can do now as a free person." Doug, I think sometimes, when we talk about freedom in this country, it is a word that is really underestimated. To be free to do your own thing, to have mobility, to say that I'm going to have say so over whether my children get sold or not is a tremendous something to have. I share this with you real quick. Doug Still: [55:57] Yeah. Robert Watson: [56:00] When you hear a black person say, that's my brother or that's my sister, they're not talking about someone who is biologically related. They're talking about someone whose experiences are similar. And so, when this Emancipation Proclamation comes about, people in Virginia-- And the records show this. People in Virginia go south to Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia looking for the loved ones that were sold down south during the domestic slave trade. Doug Still: [56:39] Which is still a dangerous mission. Robert Watson: [56:41] Yes, absolutely. Exactly. Doug Still: [56:44] Yeah. You mentioned before we started the interview that there were gardeners in the 1920s and 1930s that used to collect acorns and germinate them and grow trees. Abra Lee: [56:58] Yes, Doug. And these ain't just any gardeners. These are women who belong to the historic and storied Negro Garden Club of Virginia, which is founded on the campus of Hampton University. On April 22nd, 1932. Four people found that organization. Dr. William Cooper, who's Head of Extension, a Hampton professor named Asa Sims, who is incredibly active in the garden club up until his death. He teaches floral culture and horticulture at Hampton. A Hampton Roads area educator and principal named P.J. Chesson is also at the table. And the only woman at the table that day is a woman named Ethel Earley Clark, who is the first President of the Negro Garden Club of Virginia. This group that black women lead, and tens of thousands of them are members of from the 1932 well up until the early 2000s. Though the clubs don't formally meet as they once did, there are people who were members of that club who are still alive today. But with these garden clubs, the first known black garden club that was part of the Negro Garden Club of Virginia, again, that's the word used at that time was a club called the Ever Blooming Garden Club. It is founded by a black woman named Irma Thompson. And in the early 1930s, some of the garden club women from the Ever Blooming Garden Club in the Hampton Roads area, along with some of the professors of Hampton, have collected acorns and created seedlings to these trees. They grow them and then they plant them. One of the places that they planted them was at a school called the Booker T. Washington school, which I believe we can go back and fact check was a middle school. And so, there's a beautiful picture that I'll send you of where one of the tree seedlings has been planted. The seedling is established in, I believe, 1934. And then this picture is from the 1960s, and it's a tree behind them. It's grown into a fully formed tree. Doug Still: [59:07] That's 100-year-old tree now. Abra Lee: [59:09] Exactly. It's a 100-year-old tree now. That's right. Doug Still: [59:12] 90, I guess. Abra Lee: [59:12] I was able to trace the legacy of this tree up into the mid-90s. So it was still standing up until that point. Irma Thompson, and there's a beautiful picture of her and a woman named Elizabeth Hines, who was also a member of the Ever-Blooming Garden Club. And at this point, Elizabeth Hines-- Both of these women are educators. And at that point, Elizabeth Hines in the 1960s is the president of that garden club. At that point, the tree that they have behind them is called the Clark Oak. So they take these seeds, these acorns from the Emancipation Oak grow seedlings, plant this tree at a children's school and name the tree that grows after N. B. Clark, who is a pioneer black educator and a classmate of Booker T. Washington at Hampton. So, the tree's name changes from Emancipation Oak to the children of the Emancipation Oak being named after other black educators in that region. So, I think that's a beautiful story of evolution as well. Doug Still: [01:00:13] Through my own grapevine, I was put in touch with a local arborist who recently had the same idea to grow offspring of the famous Emancipation Oak tree to help preserve its legacy. His name is Tim Nuckols of Nuckols Tree Care in nearby Virginia Beach. [01:00:30] Hi, Tim. Welcome to the show. Tim Nuckols: [01:00:32] Thank you, Doug. Happy to be here. Doug Still: [01:00:35] Now, you initiated an effort to collect and germinate acorns from the tree. Tim Nuckols: [01:00:40] Yes, son. Doug Still: [01:00:41] How did that come about, and what do you plan to do with the seedlings? Tim Nuckols: [01:00:45] Well, I was driving down the road one day, and I had an epiphany of, it would be really nice to take these oak, these acorns and see if we can grow them into some trees that we could return to the university for their alumni or whoever they chose to pass them out to. And so, I recruited a couple of arborists in the area. The main one is Chad Peevy with Old Dominion University. He's their head arborist there. Then Dr. Pete Schultz at Virginia Tech research facility. Doug Still: [01:01:30] What's the goal of your effort? Tim Nuckols: [01:01:32] Well, to grow these trees to a certain height, 2ft to 3ft, so we can return them to the university as a gift. No profit involved. We're not interested in making any money. We just wanted to do what was right. The tree will die one day. It's in really good shape, but one day it's going to go, and it would be great to have some prodigies that are planted all over the area or even all over the country. It would be nice. Doug Still: [01:02:08] That's wonderful. Why is this tree important to you? Tim Nuckols: [01:02:12] Well, when I read the history of the Emancipation Oak, the freed slave who would teach people how to read underneath the tree in the evening, so it just struck me as really a story of perseverance in a time that was so bad for these folks. Doug Still: [01:02:37] Wonderful. Well, that'll be a nice gift. Tim Nuckols: [01:02:39] Yes. I'm looking forward to handing it over to them. And these things you do that are good, it makes you feel good when you do them. Doug Still: [01:02:48] And back to Professor Robert Watson and Abra Lee. [01:02:52] It must be rewarding to teach your students this history of Mary Peake and the Emancipation Proclamation and the oak tree. Have you taught under the tree yourself? Robert Watson: I have. Thank you so much for that question. The answer is yes. In fact, every semester, I teach at least two classes under the Emancipation Oak, and we talk about Mary Peake. When I go there, the student will ask me, "You said were going on a field trip. When are we going and where are we going?" I say, "Well, I'm not going to tell you where you're going, but I can tell you when we're going." And I'll tell them usually a week or so in advance, so they can bring their walking shoes. Even if it's raining, we'll go. If it's snowing, we'll go. Because I say if Dr. King and Carmichael and the rest of those people who fought-- Fannie Lou Hamer for the rights for us to be able to vote, I say a little rain, a little snow is not going to bother you. You're going to be out there momentarily. So we go. We go to the Emancipation Oak, and I compare that tree with some of the iconic symbols of struggle and freedom throughout history. The Berlin Wall. I say the Berlin Wall was a barrier that kept people who wanted to be part of a democracy from the totalitarian state of communism. So, they risked their lives to climb over that wall. This tree is a symbol of struggle, equality, and education. Your university is right there is the outgrowth of the motivation of people like Mary Peake for us to have a university. I said that tree also is symbolic of Robben Island. Then they look around, "Robben Island? Where is that? I say, "Robben Island is where Nelson Mandela was held for 20 plus years." I think it's 27 years. I say, so there. I say, "You know, let's just go one farther." I say, "There's a Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C." Because the Jews say, "Never again will we allow Hitler or Mussolini or anyone else to destroy who we are." So, they say, "Never again." I say, "This tree stands for a reason." I say, "People learn about struggle for equality and freedom.’ I said, "But let's just go one more." I said, "Tiananmen Square." And I look around, I say, "Anybody know where Tiananmen Square is?" "Oh, yeah." I have one student who know. I say, "When young people stood near a tank because they were protesting Macedon and other policies towards individual freedoms." I said, "Here we have the individual freedom because some people struggled." They get it. It takes some of them a little while to get it. And then my final point for taking them there is that, I say, "You know, when you graduate from Hampton and you go to a Fortune 500 company, major corporation, I say, ‘People are going to be gathering around the coffee pot and the water cooler and water fountain, and they going to ask you, ‘What do you know about Emancipation Oak?’" I say, "It would be embarrassing to me, and it's going to be more embarrassing to you if you don't know the history of this symbolic living organism." So, yes, I do take it and I enjoy. Doug Still: [01:06:45] Professor Watson, thanks so much for joining me. That was just an incredible presentation and talk we had, and I appreciate everything you do. Robert Watson: [01:06:53] Thank you. And I appreciate what you're doing, because this is better than the grapevine. Doug Still: [01:07:01] That's right. Robert Watson: [01:07:03] Absolutely. Doug Still: [01:07:03] Yeah. Well, thanks again. Robert Watson: [01:07:06] You are welcome. Thank you. You come to Hampton. Doug Still: [01:07:10] Absolutely. So, we've talked about how the trees factored into the legacy of the school, and I think our country, but how would you describe the feeling that you had when you walked up to the tree? Abra Lee: [01:07:23] The feeling I had when I walked up to the tree was excitement, and the excitement of, "I can't believe I'm seeing this tree." You're talking about a tree that is 200 years old, and has seen a lot of things go down, including the Civil War, including slavery, including reconstruction, including the Jim Crow era. So, the things that this tree has witnessed, that just came over me in that moment thinking about, "This tree has seen the history of America unfold in many ways and is still standing to tell that story." Doug Still: [01:07:59] Well, thank you so much for spending time with me and telling this story about the Emancipation Oak and its legacy. Abra Lee: [01:08:05] Thank you, Doug. It is always so fun to talk to you. It's so exciting. Trees are everything. And I'm just so grateful that you do this work, and just share so much and have so many lively, thoughtful conversations centered around trees. It's amazing. Thank you. All right, well, we've got to keep doing it. We got to go find more cool trees to talk about. Doug Still: [01:08:23] [laughs] Absolutely. Thanks so much. Abra Lee: [01:08:26] Thank you. Doug Still: [01:08:30] If the Emancipation Proclamation was a crucial but still unsatisfactory step toward freedom, then education lays the path to true emancipation. It's that connection that the Emancipation Oak encapsulates and where we find its powerful resonance. Once again, I'd like to thank Abra Lee and Robert Watson for sharing their knowledge and heartfelt sentiments on the show today. You truly made it special. Thanks to Tim Nuckols for joining us as well, and I'm looking forward to hearing where those seedlings get planted. The choral music you've been listening to is a piece called Steal Away, a Traditional spiritual composed by Wallace Willis, sometime before 1862. This version was sung by the Winston Salem State University Choir and was arranged by composer Roland Carter, a graduate and former music teacher at Hampton University. Our consulting editor is Josh Abrams. Theme music is by Dee Lee, and artwork is by Dahn Hiuni. Please visit the show website at thisoldtree.show, and you can find photos and more information on Facebook and Instagram. I'm Doug Still. See you next time on This Old Tree. [theme music] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Autograph Tree (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 1 Published October 11, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] Beech trees have a smooth, thin gray bark that makes the perfect writing tablet for vandals. This is true for both Fagus grandifolia - that's American beech here in North America - and the species Fagus sylvatica, indigenous to much of Europe. You can't blame tree lovers or park managers for shaking their heads in dismay upon seeing Johnny plus Susie scratched proudly onto the trunk, marring it for decades. But not everyone feels that way. There's a magnificent copper beech in Ireland - Gort in County Galway to be exact - where bark signatures were not only appreciated but encouraged. They made the tree famous. Thousands of tourists come to visit it each year, also to see the Coole Park Nature Reserve where it stands. What's the story here? To crack this beech nut, we need to delve into the world of Isabella Augusta Gregory, or Lady Gregory as she's known. Writer, intellectual, playwright, folklorist and patron of the Irish literary revival at the turn of the 20th century, Lady Gregory drew writers of her day to her house and garden. If they made the grade, they were allowed to sign our subject today, The Autograph Tree. I'm Doug Still and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [02:13] Who was Lady Gregory and why were her literary guests at Coole Park signing her copper beech tree? I have two of the world's foremost scholars on Lady Gregory here to describe her life and passions, Dr. James Pethica of Williams College, and Dr. Anna Pilz of the University of Edinburgh. First, however, I actually had the privilege of traveling to Gort, Ireland to stand beneath the canopy of this amazing tree in person as William Butler Yeats did, and George Bernard Shaw, and Seán O'Casey, George William Russell, and many others. While there, I met some very kind staff members at the Coole Park Nature Reserve, including Becky Teesdale, Jenni McGuire, Niall O'Reilly, and Margaux Pierrel, who not only showed me the beech tree but also the gorgeous woods and paths and lakes that make up this conservation gem. Here's my interview with Jenni McGuire, the head guide at Coole with the noble beech towering over us. Hi, Jenni. Jenni McGuire: [03:16] Hi, Doug. Nice to meet you. Doug Still: [03:18] For our listeners, what's the setting here, and what is Coole Park? Jenni McGuire: [00:03:23] So, yes, we're in a mixed broadleaf woodland. It's a nature reserve of about 1,000 acres. We're standing in the walled garden within that nature reserve. We're about 10 kms inland from the coast at Kinvara, so we're quite low lying here. It was designated a nature reserve in 1983, but prior to that it has a rich cultural history dating back to 1768 when the park area, initially 600 acres, was acquired by the first of four generations of Gregory’s to own this estate. So, that was Robert Gregory in 1768. Subsequent four generations of the Gregory family have continued a tradition of planting trees in the estate. The first Robert set about building stone walls all around the boundary, and he established a nursery in what is now our red deer enclosure to furnish the woodlands with exotic trees. As the age of botany developed and explorers went traveling further afield, they were able to bring back more exotic specimens. So, as you go for, perhaps, a little wander around the reserve later on, you may see specimens that you may be more familiar with in the States. We have Western Red Cedar, we have a sequoia, we have a Monterey pine. So, all of these are our living history, the legacy left behind by the Gregory family. Doug Still: [04:56] I recognized some of them on the drive in was spectacular. We drove into a tunnel of trees from the countryside, and you instantly know you're in a different space. Jenni McGuire: [05:08] That's right. Yeah, estates were all about status symbols as well. The main driveway that you came in on will have been planted up by the third-generation of Gregory family. So, they planted a lot of lime trees, so common lime around Quercus ilex, so holm oak or holly oak. And this formed like a Gothic arch above the main driveway, which was intended to have impact as people approach the estate. Doug Still: [05:37] Yes. You tested me on the holly oak [Jenni laughs] just a minute ago, and I failed miserably by the very interesting tree. Jenni McGuire: [05:43] We let you off. [laughter] Doug Still: [05:46] What part of the estate are we on now? Jenni McGuire: [05:48] So, we're in the walled garden. We're not too far from the main house. That was built in 1770, I believe. But the house was central in the whole estate, and the walled garden was a little bit off to the left. It's a walled garden. It used to be called the flower garden in Lady Gregory's time. So, Lady Gregory was the wife of the final Gregory generation to own the estate. She married Sir William Gregory in the 1800s. She was very young. She wasn't from far away. She was only from another wealthy landowning estate of Roxborough, about 5 miles from here. Doug Still: [06:35] I see. Jenni McGuire: [06:36] She was the youngest of a family of about 17 children and a little bit disregarded by her parents. Doug Still: [06:42] Well, after 16 other siblings. Jenni McGuire: [06:45] Yeah, I think so. I think they were a bit bored of children at that point. [laughter] Doug Still: [06:50] Well, she made a name for herself. Jenni McGuire: [06:51] She did. So, the walled garden itself was really only a minor factor of the estate. It was a place where they could come and sit and enjoy the peace and quiet, and the additional heat that a walled garden provides. The high walls protecting from the salt laden wind. It wasn't the main destination. The autograph tree would not have been the focal point of the walled garden. You saw as you walked in that it's off to the side. It's not in a central location. It doesn't draw the eye until you get a bit closer to it and have stopped looking at everything else. Doug Still: [00:07:30] Jenni shared that Lady Gregory was widowed in 1892. Jenni McGuire: [00:07:34] That's when her life took off in a literary fashion. But also parallel to that was her love of tree planting. She then met William Butler Yeats, a famous poet. She met him in London in 1896, and he then came to Coole. She invited him to Coole in 1898, and thus was the start of a lifelong friendship. He subsequently visited Coole Park for 20 consecutive summers. Doug Still: [08:06] Wow. Jenni McGuire: [08:05] He was the first to be invited to carve his initials in the Autograph Tree. Doug Still: [08:10] I see. Jenni McGuire: [08:11] Now this wasn't a new practice. Like, trees are etched all over the world. Doug Still: [08:18] That's one of the ID features for a beech tree. Jenni McGuire: [08:20] It is. Yeah. Doug Still: [08:21] If someone's carved their initials into it, when you teach people for the first time. Jenni McGuire: [08:27] Yeah. It's the smooth bark. Doug Still: [08:29] Yeah. Jenni McGuire: [08:30] It's perfect. Doug Still: [08:30] It just welcomes that. Jenni McGuire: [08:32] It does. And Lady Gregory, she knew her trees as is evident in an article she wrote for the Irish Homestead. At a time when horticultural practice and actual females planting trees and knowing so much about sylviculture was quite unheard of. And for her to write a practical article about planting trees was quite unusual. Doug Still: [08:56] If you listen closely, you can hear the rain pattering down on the canopy of the autograph tree above us. Jenni read a quote from a visitor to the walled garden named Sidney [unintelligible [00:09:05]. Jenni McGuire: [09:07] That afternoon, I found the garden. The rare glow of sunshine lay on the high gray walls, hung with yellow drooping roses and reddening vines and waxy white flowers. A broad shadowed walk ran the length of the wall. There was an enchanting vista of it from the garden gate. I went slowly along, crushing rosemary between my fingers and wondering at the dark groups of stately Irish hues. At the end of the garden, I found a gate in the wall, a big old rusty and green gate through which I peered at a wet wilderness of trees and mossy stones. So, as you've seen yourself, it doesn't look too much different to those times. It hasn't changed an awful lot, but the big difference is the gate at the end of the wall. Now, that was locked in those times. Yeats was given a key. He had free reign of the grounds. [Doug laughs] When he came to visit here, Lady Gregory really looked after him. He was given the best room in the house, he was given free reign of the wine cellar, which really irked her son, Robert. [Doug laughs] She set out fresh paper and ink for him every morning, and she really tried to nurture his writing. He was given the key to nutwood and he would often be found just wandering, lost in thought. If he passed anybody, he rarely acknowledged them. He was very much away with the fairies. Doug Still: [10:34] [laughs] That's funny. Jenni McGuire: [10:35] What she created here was a literary landscape within a woodland setting. Like, she had equal love of both. She loved the literary side. She penned 50 plays herself. She nurtured Yeats. She invited all these literary greats here, whose names are all before us on the tree, slightly blurred now, over time. When she set about gathering folklore from local Irish people, she took herself off to the Aran Islands of County Galway to go and gather folklore and translated it from Irish. So, she was bringing the Irish language back into the fore at a time when Ireland was under-- There was a lot of political unrest and the Irish kind of-- Irishism was disappearing under the weight of that, and she wanted to revive that, and she found her partner in Yeats to help do that. Doug Still: [11:34] Yes, they both did. Jenni McGuire: [11:35] They did. The late 1800s, early 1900s was the Irish literary revival. They established the Irish National Theatre, a world stage for Irish playwrights to have a voice. Up until then, it had been maybe American theatre companies, British companies touring, and Irish people weren't very well portrayed, a bit typecast. So, this was an option, an opportunity for Irish playwrights to-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [12:06] And a celebration of Irish folklore. Jenni McGuire: [12:08] Absolutely. Doug Still: [12:09] So, you have a quote from Lady Gregory. Jenni McGuire: [12:11] But lady Gregory, yeah, to indicate her love of trees and her knowledge of trees, she wrote in The Irish Homestead, and this was printed in 1898, the same year that Yeats signed this tree. And she wrote, “We find the little seedlings we had put down in faith are over our heads and acting as our protectors. And even if we do not live to sit under their shade, yet nonetheless, they will grow while we are sleeping, that long sleep in which we may so easily be forgotten. And we are not likely to have more lasting monuments put over us, and we cannot have more gracious ones than the living, rustling trees that we had planted and that we had loved.” Doug Still: [12:57] This is the perfect place to read that- Jenni McGuire: [12:59] Oh, absolutely. Doug Still: [13:00] -as the autograph tree is rustling in the wind and protecting us from the light rain that's happening outside. Jenni McGuire: [13:07] Yes, absolutely it is. It's a cathedral under here. It's a copper beech, as we've said. It's Fagus sylvatica ‘purpurea.’ Doug Still: [13:17] Could you describe the tree for our listeners? Jenni McGuire: [13:18] Yeah. We estimate it's around 200 years old, give or take 20 years. Doug Still: [13:26] Well, it's covered in moss, so it looks very old as well. Jenni McGuire: [13:28] It’s covered in moss. Yeah. We're standing underneath like some drooping boughs, which creating a tent like atmosphere. As you look up, it is reminiscent of like a cathedral dome. The drooping boughs are grazing the floor around it. We're completely protected from the elements under here. The girth of the tree itself, in 2017, measured three and a half meters. It's likely put on a little bit of weight since then as well, but we currently have a little boardwalk around the base of the tree, so that visitors can look all the way around it. Doug Still: [14:14] And protect the roots. Jenni McGuire: [14:15] And protect the roots. We have a metal cage which was put in place, I think, in the 1970s, or it's been protected since the early 1970s, because as well as all of our literary greats, we have a lot of locals, and visitors, and foresters who have also carved their initials on here over the years. Doug Still: [14:37] Right. The temptation is too great. Jenni McGuire: [14:39] Too great. Yeah. Doug Still: [14:40] So, now they can't do that. Jenni McGuire: [14:41] They can't do that at all. But yeah, there's a plaque standing at the base of the tree listing some of the key figures that signed their names. There are numbers marked on the back of the tree to help locate them, because over the years, every signing is damage to the tree, the tree tries to repair itself. It's quite incredible that it survived all of this repair. Some of the autographs have folded in on themselves now and are really hard to decipher. Doug Still: [15:15] Now, on the sign, there are 15 people listed- Jenni McGuire: [15:19] Yeah. Doug Still: [15:19] -and there are markers on the tree where their initials are. Jenni McGuire: [15:24] That's it. Yes. So, it indicates exactly where each initial was. And then we also list a few other names of significant people who've also signed the tree, but they aren't labeled by number. But if you're interested in learning a little bit more about them, I can tell you who some of them are. There's actually an interesting one. She's not labelled on the tree, but she was an actress called Sara Allgood. She was one of the leading ladies in many of Lady Gregory's plays. But in her later life, she moved to Hollywood and ended up starring in a lot of the early talkie movies. She was nominated for an Academy Award for How Green Was My Valley, an old John Ford film from way back. Doug Still: [16:12] Now, would a lot of the people have been invited by William Yeats or both or--? Jenni McGuire: [16:21] Lady Gregory was the sole decider of who signed this tree. Doug Still: [16:25] I see. Jenni McGuire: [16:25] Yes. This was her tree. She decided it. Doug Still: [16:28] It must have been considered an honor. Jenni McGuire: [16:30] It must have been. Oh, it was indeed. There were other guests here who weren't invited to sign the tree, even though they were here with the literary grace. Doug Still: [16:39] They must have left disappointed. Who comes to visit Coole Park now? Jenni McGuire: [16:44] People from all over the world. We have coach tours, we have a lot of Americans come here, we have national tour groups come here, literary groups, poet groups. There's a regular poetry group called The Gathering Cloud Collective who come and do poetry readings under the tree. Literary students will come and families. People, who just stumble across it have no idea what they're looking at. And also, ecologists. So, it appeals to people coming at it from a historical angle and people coming at it from a love of nature. Initially, you felt it yourself. You had to duck through a small opening in the boughs to come and enter into this dome like tent. That's the initial impression is just of awe at the size and just wonderment in looking up at those boughs. Doug Still: [17:43] Yeah. I can say when we entered the walled garden, it didn't stand out right of way- Jenni McGuire: [17:48] No. Doug Still: [17:48] -until we got maybe halfway down the path, because it's sort of a wall of leaves. Jenni McGuire: [17:54] Yeah. Doug Still: [17:53] [chuckles] It looks like when you walk up to it, but then you see the tunnel entrance and you walk in. It's a different world under here. Jenni McGuire: [18:01] Yeah, it is. Doug Still: [18:03] What would you say is the most common question about it? Jenni McGuire: [18:06] About the tree? Doug Still: [18:07] About the tree or Coole Park. Jenni McGuire: [18:09] The most common question we actually get asked in the visitor center is, what happened to the house? Because the house no longer stands. Doug Still: [18:16] Right. What did happen to the house? Jenni McGuire: [18:18] What did happen to the house? Well, the common misconception is that it was burned during the Troubles, but it wasn't burned at all. Lady Gregory died in 1932. When she died, she had no longer been the owner of the house for five years. Her daughter-in-law, Margaret Perry, so her son's wife had sold the house with Lady Gregory's blessing to the state. It was run then by the Forestry Service, who then spent the next 60 years planting up available space with commercial timber for lumber. But Lady Gregory, according to Sir William's will, she was entitled to remain in the house until her death. So, she actually ended up paying rent to stay in her own house. Doug Still: [19:08] Okay. Jenni McGuire: [19:09] She paid £100 a year, but she was actually quite happy that it had gone to the Forestry Service, because-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [19:15] Right. She didn't have to take care of it anymore. Jenni McGuire: [19:16] She didn't, but she still was involved. She was delighted that- Doug Still: [19:20] I'm sure. Jenni McGuire: [19:21] -planting was taking place, that this kind of tree planting legacy was still being continued and that the estate would remain for future generations as a woodland. So, her, paying rent. She was no longer receiving rent from tenants. So, the upkeep was a little bit hard on the house. And then when she died, the first thing the Forestry Service did was remove the lead from the roof. It's obviously something that could have been recycled at the time. Ireland was a relatively new independent state, and any kind of recycling and saving of money would have been to the fore. Once the weather gets in, then the demise of the house was-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [20:00] Once you start dismantling the roof- Jenni McGuire: [20:02] Yes, that’s it. Doug Still: [20:02] -it's over, isn't it? Jenni McGuire: [20:03] So, it was eventually demolished for the price of the stone to a local building contractor in 1941. Sadly. Doug Still: [20:11] Okay. Jenni McGuire: [20:11] Yes. [theme music] Doug Still: [20:16] We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll take a walk through that garden gate that Jenni talked about into the magical woods of the Coole-Garryland, Special Area of Conservation with the Conservation Ranger, Margaux Pierrel. Then I have a conversation with Lady Gregory scholar, James Pethica, to dig down into who Lady Gregory was and how the autograph tree helps tell her story. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [21:05] So, I'm here with the Conservation Ranger at Coole Park. Could you state your name? Margaux Pierrel: [21:10] Hi. My name is Margaux Pierrel. And yes, I'm the ranger for Coole Park and Garryland Nature Reserve. Doug Still: [21:16] So, we're in the Coole-Garryland Nature Reserve right now. Margaux Pierrel: [21:20] Yeah, that's correct. So, we walked a few kilometers from the walled garden, and now we are now at the heart of the nature reserve. Doug Still: [21:28] It's a beautiful dark wood. I wanted to ask you about European beech, because the autograph tree is a European copper beech, but they are throughout this forest, at least this part of the forest, correct? Margaux Pierrel: [21:46] Yeah. So, common beech and copper beech would actually trees that would be considered not native to Ireland. So, they are thought to have been imported in the 16th century. But in fact, most of the woodland in Ireland would be formed of beech trees nowadays. They provide good shelter and food for a lot of animal species. And right now, we're standing under one that has been carved just like the autograph tree, but in a slight different ways where it's not protective. The rest of the woodland is composed of Pedunculate oak and ash trees. And then there's another story of hazel and elm. Doug Still: [22:33] What was the type of oak tree? Margaux Pierrel: [22:35] Pedunculate. Doug Still: [22:36] Someone was just describing, this as the dark wood. Could you elaborate on that? Margaux Pierrel: [22:43] Yeah. Well, I suppose on a gray day like today, the beech trees really form that dark atmosphere. It's very sheltered, and it does get very dark. Now on a spring and sunny day, it would be a very different story with the fresh leaves and the greenery. Doug Still: [23:05] But it'd be wonderful to be in here. Margaux Pierrel: [23:06] Yeah. Every day is a different atmosphere in Ireland, really. Doug Still: [23:11] So, what people have to remember is, this is a nature reserve in addition to the cultural aspect of the park. Margaux Pierrel: [23:17] Y es, absolutely. Yeah, Coole Park is known for Lady Gregory and the autograph tree and the walled garden, but it forms part of a bigger estate that is the Coole-Garryland Nature Reserve. Now, that nature reserve was established in 1983. And since 1987, it's being managed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Now, it is designated under two directives. So, under the habitat directive, which means it's an SAC, so Special Area of Conservation. Doug Still: [23:50] I see. Margaux Pierrel: [23:50] Under the … directive, it's also protected as an SPA, a Special Protection Area. Doug Still: [23:57] What's the biggest issue you're facing right now in preserving this woodland? Margaux Pierrel: [24:03] Well, the wood itself has to be protected and managed against invasive species mostly. Doug Still: [24:14] Which a lot of them were, right, they were planted for lumber originally. Margaux Pierrel: [24:18] Yeah. So, those would not be technically considered invasive species, but more non-native. So, a lot of the conifers that were planted in the 20th century have been removed now. These areas that have been cut from conifers are now being regenerated as natural woodland. But now invasive species imported into gardens, for example, have found their way in Garryland and in Coole Park and are affecting a lot of trees. Yeah. Doug Still: [24:57] Now, the beech you were encouraging, or you're fine with the beech being, right? Margaux Pierrel: [25:03] Well, we have to start somewhere. The priority was really removing the nonnative conifers. So, the beech now they form a big part of the woodland. The beech woodland is not a qualifying interest for the nature reserve. It's not technically protected, but it forms an integral part of it. Doug Still: [25:24] We won't tell anyone. We're just going to keep these beech trees. Margaux Pierrel: [25:27] That’s it. Yes. Doug Still: [25:29] As I'm learning about Yeats poetry, he wrote about the swans on this lake. Margaux Pierrel: [25:35] Yes. Doug Still: [25:36] So, the swans would come in the winter. Margaux Pierrel: [25:37] Yes. So, the wild swans of Coole Park that Yeats was wrote about-- So, as I mentioned, the nature reserve is also designated as a special protection area for whooper swans. Doug Still: [25:51] Whooper swans. Margaux Pierrel: [25:52] Yes. So, the whooper swans are coming from Iceland and they come and migrate here to spend a milder winter than they would have had in Iceland. Doug Still: [25:59] That's a long flight. Margaux Pierrel: [26:00] It is a pretty long flight, but they can do that in a couple of days, really. And then they have all the food that they want, because Turlocks are fantastic habitats in terms of grasses that they feed on. Doug Still: [26:11] But I can see what they appreciated about this landscape. The open lake area, the deep woods, the pinetum, the walled garden, it's all just very beautiful. Margaux Pierrel: [26:24] It's very beautiful and it does sustain them. It provides food and shelter, which is the most important. Margaux Pierrel: [26:29] And of course, the autograph tree. Margaux Pierrel: [26:31] And of course, the autograph tree. Doug Still: [26:32] Margaux, thanks so much for showing me this beautiful forest. Margaux Pierrel: [26:37] Pleasure. Doug Still: [26:39] I got a great view of the autograph tree, and absolutely loved the tour through the surrounding woodlands. But who was Lady Gregory and what made her tick? How did her literary life and mission resonate with Ireland itself? Here's my talk with James Pethica, Senior Lecturer in English and Theatre at Williams College. Thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate you taking the time. James Pethica: [27:06] Absolutely, my pleasure. Doug Still: [27:08] Lady Gregory is well known in Ireland, but I would hazard to say that most of us from North America and elsewhere don't really know of her. I know you're working to change that through your work and the authorized biography you have underway. James Pethica: [27:25] That's right. First, the question of her being known, she is known, if she is known well across the world by being Yeats’s friend, Yeats’s patron. She, of course, appears in a number of his canonical poems where he's expressing his gratitude for the support she gave him. The biography, yes, I've been at work for some time, as it were, pushing the tanker in a slightly different direction trying to highlight her foundational role in so many things in Irish culture, literary and artistic culture of the time. First up, I suppose, her support for Yeats, she was really the figure who galvanized his folklore collecting, brought it in a new direction. She was a decent Irish speaker and good at translations, and that gave him access to a mass of new material. Then she helped him in a secretarial and an amanuensis role with his playwriting and gradually became a playwright herself. She also facilitated the founding of The Irish Literary Theatre, a three-year experiment which in turn led to The Abbey Theatre being built and renovated in 1904, which became Ireland's Abbey Theatre. So, an incredible influence here, much of it behind the scenes through other people, through collaboration. Doug Still: [29:07] How would you describe who she was just on a basic level? James Pethica: [29:11] Great question. Born in the west of Ireland, 1852. When we think of Galway, a country estate in Galway in 1852, that's a long way from the Metropolitan Center in Dublin, let alone the Metropolitan Center in London. Doug Still: [29:30] It feels very different. James Pethica: [29:32] Yes, it's a train ride from Galway. But getting to London, it literally is a couple of days. So, one of the youngest children in a big, bustling household, which was very insular, not bookish, particularly the purses. Her birth family were not well liked as landlords. She has the great fortune. She's 27 years old when she marries the nearby landlord of a large estate, Sir William Gregory. He's a cultivated man. He was Governor of Ceylon in the early 1870s. He'd been an MP in the British Parliament for a number of terms from early on. He is 35 years older than her. She marries just at the point where it looks like she's 27 is old in 1888-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [30:30] Right. They got married. James Pethica: [30:32] Nobody expects her to get an offer. He is looking for a companion in old age, looking for somebody who is bookish. It lights on her and it transforms her world. She immediately goes to London and is introduced into this cultivated world. He's been a Colonial Governor and knows all the political people. She's dining with the Prime Minister, cabinet ministers, the rest. Doug Still: [31:01] Her life just changed. James Pethica: [31:03] Absolutely. He has significant artistic interests. He's a Director of the National Gallery in London. So, knows all the artistic figures as well. So, you can imagine the dinner parties in a London house. Robert Browning is there, Henry James is there. It launches her into an entirely new world. Travel to India and Ceylon and so on. And she starts her earliest writings in the 1880s in a very tentative way looking for a subject. She writes travel articles, journalistic articles, but they're not in any systematic way connected with Irish culture. It's not until towards the end of the married period that she starts turning her attention to the world around her. There are reasons for that. From around 1880 onward, there was, what was termed, the land war in Ireland, where tenants are pushing basically for land distribution. Bit by bit it's clear that the stranglehold of particularly Protestant landlords and absentee landlords is going to be broken up. There are several efforts to pass Home Rule bills in the British government. She becomes more than peripherally involved in that given the tenants on the Gregory's own estate are campaigning for change and starts to pay more attention. Not to say that she hadn't had close relationships with her tenants beforehand, she was somebody who was deeply influenced by the idea of no bless oblige, “It is your duty as somebody who has money, has status, to help those who are less fortunate.” So, even as a young woman, she's gone out on the estate as a philanthropist trying to help people. But from around the late 1880s onwards, she's paying much more attention, is starting to realize, there is a distinctive culture which she's attracted by. And then when she starts reading the early writings of the so called Irish Literary Revival, particularly when she encounters Yeats’s work, that's it. Her allegiances literally shift. Instead of unionist supportive of the British connection, she starts to become a nationalist and is working for Home Rule for Ireland. Doug Still: [33:38] As you were saying, a lot of her efforts culturally and in her writings are intertwined with Yeats. How did they meet and why did they form such an immediate friendship? James Pethica: [33:49] They meet briefly at some evening soirée in 1894. I think it's fair to say that she already has her eye on him. Her diary entry reads, "At the Morrises, I met Yeats, looking every inch a poet." There's [unintelligible [00:34:08]. Though his Celtic Twilight is the best work. I think is the best work he has done. And The Celtic Twilight was a collect of folklore, mainly from the Sligo region. Doug Still: [34:21] She was already interested in that. James Pethica: [34:23] She's starting to get interested in it. She's written a few short stories, is writing to friends in London, relating little stories she's heard, and turns a phrase that interest her. She doesn't meet Yeats again, as far as we know, until nearly two years later, when he's visiting a near neighbor of hers, Edward Martin. She takes her chance. She goes over, introduces herself. I'm pretty sure that she already knew he was coming to visit because a couple of weeks beforehand, she's already starting collecting folklore and invites him. The person he's touring island with to come to lunch at her estate at Coole, and she gives him this little collection of folklore and is talking about the things she's been doing. So, he's interested immediately, I think, because she's a potential resource. She makes it clear very early on, she's willing to be a patron, a supporter. When they meet in London the following spring, she embarks on, I suppose, what you'd call, a charm offensive, inviting him to dinner to meet important people, people she thinks that he will be impressed by. Henry James, she invites to dinner. That dinner doesn't happen, but there's a sequence of people she brings in making connections for him, showing of her own, if you like her status. I'm somebody who has a social milieu that may be of use to you. Doug Still: [35:59] Is he very young at this time? James Pethica: [36:01] He is. Let me get this exactly right. 31 years old and hard up, scrabbling writing journalism to pay the rent on his little London apartment. In comes this person who basically signals to him very early on, “I'm ready to support you.” She sends him food hampers from Ireland, and then, in quite short order, starts giving him money. There's a moment in his autobiography where he says, “A few weeks later, I found £20 left behind the clock on my mantelpiece. Doug Still: [36:38] [chuckles] James Pethica: [36:41] I went to try and return it to her, but she said, “The only wrong thing is not doing your best work. You must give up journalism. So, there's the essential equation. I'll support you. I want to support your poetry, I want to support your writing.” Doug Still: [36:55] Did he introduce her to other writers at the time, or was it the other way around or mutual? James Pethica: [37:03] It's mutual. But as far as the Irish side of it, he's the one who's making it possible for her to rise quickly, provides her with the opportunities to become a significant figure in the Irish revival. She knows mainly British writers before this. She knows a few people, but he's introducing her to his inner circle, writers like George Russell, Douglas Hyde, and others. Doug Still: [37:30] I can't help, but think of other figures in the early 20th century, like, Gertrude Stein in Paris or Peggy Guggenheim or Isabella Stewart Gardner, who, through their passion and energy and wealth and position, were patrons of the arts and brought intellectuals and likeminded artists together. Would you call Lady Gregory-- maybe it's too the leader of a literary or cultural Ceylon, or would you characterize it differently? James Pethica: [38:03] Ceylon’s the awkward word there. Unlike a figure such as Isabella Stewart Gardner, who Gregory got to meet later, and they got on like a house on fire, strong, independent women. Doug Still: [38:15] [laughs] James Pethica: [38:17] Lady Gregory was not wealthy. Quite the reverse. This was a relatively encumbered estate. She didn't have money to throw around. It was the house itself and the hospitality, the peace and quiet, the retreat that it offered. Doug Still: [38:31] I see. James Pethica: [38:31] So, more important to Yeats than the others. So, Yeats, in his poem Coole Park, 1929, uses the phrase excellent company. Yes, she did bring like minded people together, workers for the movement together. A Ceylon, I think, cultivates a different kind of sense. Doug Still: [38:52] A little too formal. James Pethica: [38:54] Yes, a little too self-conscious. She wanted to be amongst interesting people and wanted to facilitate the work of interesting people. John Butler Yeats, W. B. Yeats's father, termed her the organizer of success. George Russell, in a letter to her, writes about the laboratory at Coole. So, maybe those terms get nearer to what she was trying to do. Doug Still: [39:25] Yeats had an estate or a house nearby, Thoor Ballylee? Did I pronounce that right? James Pethica: [39:32] You did. He didn't have that until 20 years after his first summer stay at Coole. Doug Still: [39:38] Okay. James Pethica: [39:39] Indeed. He, as I've suggested, was a hard-up man in 1896 who needed the support. Doug Still: [39:48] So, he found some success later on, obviously, and then was able to move there. How did that work? James Pethica: [39:55] This is awkward. Yeats's buying of Thoor Ballylee in 1916. He spent 20 summers, three months of the year at Coole Park. His purchase of the tower was, in many ways, a break from Lady Gregory, an assertion of independence, a wish to escape. Maybe escape is too hard a word, but to give himself some distance from a relationship which in some ways had become constraining, too fixed. He wanted to marry and he did. In 1917, restores the tower, as he says in a poem for my wife, George. So, on the one hand, buying a medieval tower and restoring it three miles or four miles from Lady Gregory’s house is an act of solidarity, an expression of his commitment to the area. But in another way, it's also, “I'm not going to be spending my nights at your house anymore.” Doug Still: [41:01] But that's interesting that it was a little bit of a break. What did the autograph tree mean to Lady Gregory, and have you found reference to it in any of her writings? James Pethica: [41:12] She mentions it in a couple of autobiographical writings, but nothing in her letters. What did it mean to her earlier in her life? Early in her married life, she would ask guests, important people she met, to sign their names on a fan she had. The first fan, it's mainly political figures, people with political power and some writers. Robert Browning is on there. But the writers are more likely to be historians than poets or playwrights. Then she has a second fan. You can already see that her life is shifting by the late 1880s, early 1890s, because she's starting to collect writers more than anybody else. The second fan becomes an Irish fan, overwhelmingly Irish writers. She keeps that fan-- New names keep going in until the late 1920s. So, what's she trying to achieve by having people write their name on a fan and then later carve their name into a tree? That's the question. Doug Still: [42:29] Yes. James Pethica: [42:30] I think it changes. Early on, it's lionizing, people who are famous and maybe being a little starstruck by them. So, early on, lionization, but also a demonstration of her standing. You pull out that fan, “Look at all these important people I know.” Doug Still: [42:48] That's right. James Pethica: [42:49] It raises her own profile. And then the second fan, it's maybe already announcing, signaling on some level, her arrival. “Look, this is the company I'm in, the company I want to be in.” But by the time, it's the autograph tree, I think it's on the one hand, yes, simply a guest book. These are my famous guests, but there's potentially a power play at work here. You get to sign, because you're important enough, you don't. So, it's making a complicated statement. It's also wanting to make of Coole Park and her home itself a monument, I think, which she does quite consciously in some of her last writings, at the point where the estate has already been sold to the forestry department. She knows it's going to be swept away. Yeats is already anticipating that it's going to be a mound of rubble. He says that in a poem before she's even dead. Doug Still: [43:53] How does she feel about that? James Pethica: [43:55] Oh, such a great question. She knew she had accomplished something and is smart enough to recognize that the building itself, the presence of the library, the furniture in the rooms in a sense, doesn't matter. Her last book, Coole, her last prose work, it's a very cunning book. It describes the material actuality of the house in great detail. We get descriptions of the color of spines of books and where things are and where paintings are on the wall. James Joyce famously said, I don't know whether it's apocryphal or not that Dublin could be rebuilt using his books as the template. I think she's thinking in the same vein. The house itself may be gone, but it's preserved, fixed. Not photographically, but fixed nonetheless in some important way by the writings themselves. So, of course, she was sorry that the Gregory connection, which had gone on for so many generations in this place, was going to be broken. But I think she was confident that the cultural, literary, the political accomplishment that she valorized would go on. Doug Still: [45:12] That would be the legacy. James Pethica: [45:14] Yes. Doug Still: [45:14] Cultural legacy, although the tree is one of the few physical things remaining. James Pethica: [45:20] Yes. Though the core outlines-- The garden is there, the place where the house stood, there's a visitor center. It is a monument in its way. Doug Still: [45:34] Yeats was inspired by that landscape, wasn't he? He wrote The Wild Swans at Coole. James Pethica: [45:41] Yes. Well, it figures again and again in his poetry. He says, this is, along with Sligo, the place that I dream of. Doug Still: [45:52] Lady Gregory had a direct role in shaping Coole, the way it looks today. It turns out she was quite the tree planter, as described by Dr. Anna Pilz, an Independent Researcher and fellow at the University of Edinburgh. She has written extensively about Lady Gregory's plays and their transnational production histories. She also noticed Gregory's repeated references to tree planting in her writing. Lady Gregory's unique love of trees, coming up after the break. This is This Old Tree. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [46:49] So, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna Pilz: [46:51] Thank you very much for having me. Doug Still: [46:53] When Sir William Gregory died in 1892, Lady Gregory was suddenly in charge of the Coole estate, including, of course, the grounds. How would you describe the property at that time? Was there a forest? Anna Pilz: [47:07] Yes, there certainly was, shall we say woodland, which is how she often put it. She's always referring to it and talking about the woods of Coole. So, when she entered Widowhood at the age of 40, she took over the management of the estate, which at that point was around about 5,000 acres. As people might know from the poetry of William Butler Yeats, who wrote about In the Seven Woods of Coole, there were seven distinct parts. Doug Still: [47:38] I understand that Lady Gregory was very hands on in terms of decision making and the feel of the park when she took over. Could you talk about that a little bit, and who did she work with to manage the property? Anna Pilz: [47:51] So, as part of managing the estate, there would have been gardeners as well as woodmen who would have worked on the estate. And in a book, she wrote about Coole Park, just titled Coole. She's writing about her companion and woodcutter, who was called John Ferrell. He had worked on the Coole estate for a long period of time, and was very much acquainted with all the domain woods. She's describing how they both go out in their galoshes in the appropriate attire with a fork and looking around and looking after the nurslings and protecting them from animals, such as squirrels. She's ordering seedlings and saplings, and she's planting those, choosing where to get them from, what to plant, and taking great care, and also really looking at that element of, I suppose, sustainability and environmental stewardship that we now think about. Doug Still: [49:01] I understand in her journals, her appreciation for trees comes to the fore. She writes about them a lot. She wrote one article in particular in 1898 called Tree Planting. And you wrote a scholarly article about it, Lady Gregory's Tree Planting a few years ago. What was it about, and what was she trying to accomplish by writing it? Anna Pilz: [49:27] Yeah. So, that quite short article on tree planting appeared in a short magazine, a periodical of the time titled, The Irish Homestead. That was very much a periodical that was connected to the Agricultural Organization Society, so the Cooperative Movement. It was run by a friend of hers called Horace Plunkett. It was really a periodical that looked towards enabling farmers and local agriculture to improve their skills and to advocate for self-help. Doug Still: [50:07] But this wasn't just like a Lady's gardening journal or anything like that. Anna Pilz: [50:10] No, this is practical, applied output in that sense. That's very much the tone of the piece as well. There are different layers to that article where she's on the one hand, acknowledging that if the kind of tree felling continues to go apace, Ireland will be denuded of its woodlands. So, it's very much an interventionist piece that advocates for the need for reafforestation, and then draws on the various benefits of woodland to the nation or to the country, especially within the wider context of nationalism, both cultural and political, that was vibrant at the time, but also thinking of the aesthetics of trees and how pleasant they are in terms of the landscape element of it. She's also talking about how trees are a form of like a monument and a legacy that one leaves behind. There's also a very personal element to it. So, she speaks about her personal relationship, trees and woodlands have to be cared for like friendships. So, she makes that analogy that they have to be treated like friendships and have to be kept in constant repair. She warns her readers that the day will come when they will be but a memory. I suppose that speaks to our current moment of envisioning a replanting at a grand scale. But for her, it's making the argument more on the cultural side, because at the opening of the article, she makes that clear line between trees and kind of language referring to the old Irish language, the Ogham, as a tree alphabet. And so, recalling trees is by way of connecting with that kind of linguistic and older tradition and heritage. Doug Still: [52:09] Do you have a passage that demonstrates what you were describing? Anna Pilz: [52:14] Sure. So, in Tree Planting, Gregory writes, “Ireland, more than other countries, ought to be a country of trees, for the very letters of her alphabet are named after them.” So, there you have that strong connection between trees and letters and language that we now find in artistic expressions, such as Katie Holton's great tree alphabet that she created where, again, you write in trees. Doug Still: [52:43] Lady Gregory was active in translating and promoting traditional Irish folklore. Did trees appear in the folklore that she found? Anna Pilz: [52:52] Yes, definitely. In fact, John Ferrell, so the woodcutter with whom she walked through the woods and worked in the woods is one of those people who would have told stories or have these folklore tales and share them both with Gregory and with Yeats, and they would make their way into their publications. So, John Ferrell, for instance, talks about particular strange visions that come to him in the woods of Coole, where he sees this young girl with long hair close by the lake in the wild part of the woods that's close to Coole Lake He's telling her that he's seen a girl picking nuts with her hair hanging over her shoulders, brown hair. She had a good, clean face and was tall, and nothing on her head, and her dress was no way gaudy, but simple. When she felt me coming, she gathered herself up and was gone, as if the earth had swallowed her. Doug Still: [54:01] Wow. That’s Intense. Anna Pilz: [54:01] That sense of having a vision. Obviously, within folklore, there's the tradition of the banshee or a fairy that lives in the tree and a tradition of fairy trees that are often hawthorn trees that farmers or people who believe in those kind of traditions don't want to cut down, because then you might bring ill on your family or on your farm. Doug Still: [54:29] And so, it got around, people wanted to be invited to sign the tree. Anna Pilz: [54:33] Yes, absolutely. I think it was known as well. So, Seán O'Casey referred to it as the Sacred Tree Of Coole. It's a way of her marking her importance as well of bringing these people together and shaping this cultural movement. So, it's a monument to her legacy. If we're thinking of her how she writes about trees and tree planting as lasting monuments, then the autograph tree definitely is a monument. Doug Still: [55:08] So, what are you working on now? Anna Pilz: [55:11] Well, thanks to Gregory's love for trees and planting, she got me onto a big research project that looks at Irish writing and the ways in which it engages in narratives of deforestation of Ireland's countryside from the 16th century to the 21st century. I look at texts from Edmund Spenser to Sheridan Le Fanu to James Joyce to Elizabeth Bowen, including Lady Gregory. Doug Still: [55:40] Circling back around, all our guests shared how they are inspired by the autograph tree in the Coole Park Nature Reserve. Starting with Dr. Pethica, I put him on the spot with a Lady Gregory question. As a biographer of Lady Gregory and studying her for so long, especially her correspondence, you must feel like you know her. And if you could sit down with her in her walled garden and chat, what would you ask her? Are there any mysteries you'd like to know about? James Pethica: [56:10] I think if a biographer believes they know their subject, they're in great danger. Doug Still: [56:16] [laughs] James Pethica: [56:17] What we have is an archive of material, letters, diaries, other kinds of documents, pictures, photographs, and then other material realia. It's a great scattered, incomplete jigsaw, and one can put together various kinds of pictures from it. I still find Lady Gregory, very impressive, a powerful figure. As Seán O'Casey said, she wasn't rich. She wasn't good looking, she had very relatively few resources, yet this woman managed to foster something as well as create powerfully herself. In the island of a time, how many women writers were able to do that? But what would I ask her? I think I'd probably, at this point, be too terrified. [laughter] Doug Still: [57:15] I'm sure you'd get along. James Pethica: [57:17] There are things, of course, I'd like to ask and know the answer to. But if we sit down with somebody who has thought about their own life as skilled in the art of self-presentation as Lady Gregory was, this is a woman who faced interviewers in the US on her lecture tours every day and was bombarded with questions. She, I think it's fair to say, put up certain face as T. S. Eliot would say, “To meet the faces that she met.” Doug Still: [57:47] Right. James Pethica: [57:49] If I were to be transported back in time and would ask probing personal questions, I think that I would get-- Doug Still: [57:59] You'd get that face. James Pethica: [58:01] I'd get that face. I'd get a straight cricket bat. Doug Still: [58:03] [laughs] James Pethica: [58:04] So, it's a nice illusion to imagine that one could ask the question that would unlock the locked box. Doug Still: [58:13] Right. James Pethica: [58:14] But I don't think you get it. Anna Pilz: [58:17] To me, when I think back of visiting Coole or just moving through these spaces and thinking about the people who have walked along those paths, what thoughts they carried with them, what ideas and projects they were working on at the time and how that kind of environment then made it into the richness of the text that came out of that period, and how much, I suppose that place is foundational to so much thinking that went on that it has that mythical thing around it. But it was also, when it's described as the workshop at Coole, it's something very pragmatic and collaborative and it's a working estate as well. Doug Still: [59:08] And finally, back outside at Coole with Margaux and Jenni. Doug Still: [59:14] Yeats used to just walk through these forests, and I'm told that people would pass by him and he would say nothing. He was deep in his own thoughts. Margaux Pierrel: [59:24] Yeah, that's the possibility. You would pass by me nowadays and I would probably be lost in my thoughts as well. Doug Still: [59:30] [laughs] So, you have some similarities with W. B. Yeats? Margaux Pierrel: [59:34] Yeah. When you are in such a spectacular nature reserve or woodland, you want to enjoy it fully. You want to listen to the birds and the animals rustling the branches. You want to listen to the river and the Turlock making this water sounds. You really want to be in it. Jenni McGuire: [59:54] When I first started working here, I was slightly oblivious of its literary importance, I will admit. I was here for the nature and love of nature over time and with people's responses to the tree and delving more into the history of it. I'm also awe inspired, both for the tree's natural beauty. But yeah, the history that surrounds it, all the people that have been here. When you're standing under this tree-- If you cast your mind back, if you can just visualize the kind of people who would have been coming here. Doug Still: [01:00:33] That’s what I'm doing right now. Jenni McGuire: [01:00:34] Yeah, it is. It takes your breath away. I'm awe inspired. [Theme music] Doug Still: [01:00:43] I won't soon forget the autograph tree and its caretaker, Lady Gregory. The copper beech towering in her garden is stunning in its own right, and its legend draws people to it in reverence to a period of cultural importance and national pride. To me, the story of the autograph tree is wonderfully and uniquely Irish. I'd like to thank Jenni McGuire and Margaux Pierrel for sharing their knowledge on the show, and also Becky Teasdale and Niall O'Reilly at Coole for their help, kindness, and warm hospitality. I'd also like to thank James Pethica and Anna Pilz for their brilliant interviews and research involving Lady Gregory. I'd like to thank you tree lovers for listening to the show once again. You can find photos and more information about the autograph tree on Facebook, Instagram, and the website, thisoldtree.show. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [01:01:45] By the way, this incredible music you've been listening to is a traditional piece called Cailleach an Airgid, which translates from Gaelic as The Hag with the Money. Cailleach is associated with the creation of landscape and also the weather. It was performed by Sonic Strings, a local youth ensemble from Coole Music and Arts in Gort. The arrangement was by Katharina Baker and the soloist was Lillian Owens. So haunting and beautiful. There's an incredible video of Sonic Strings performing it on a rocky outcrop in the Aran Islands filmed with use of a drone. It's awesome. Check it out on YouTube. Thank you so much for sharing your music. You've been listening to This Old Tree. See you next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Trees in Song: Season 1 Finale (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 19 Published Sept. 8, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] I'm Doug Still, and I've got a lot of fun planned for you today as we reflect back on some of the people we met during the first 18 episodes and the tree stories they shared. I'm going to be playing songs about trees, at least some songs that I like. As a child of the 1970s, I'll definitely be showing my age by some of my selections. But it turns out that there are certain themes that surround old trees and their stories that pop up again and again in songs, and in our collective imagination. In addition, you are going to get to meet Dee Lee, the person who wrote and sang our theme song. Sit back and enjoy this music filled episode of This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [00:46] This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. Wonder what you’d say if you could talk to me About what it’s like to be this old tree. Doug Still: [01:05] Since our very first episode about the Betsy Williams Sycamore, old trees have been a source of comfort and shelter to people in need in our stories. Think of the pioneers taking refuge under the birthing tree in Central Tennessee on their way westward; or, Robin Hood's men hiding from the authorities in Sherwood Forest beneath what's now known as the major oak; or the escape from the hot Florida sun provided by the shade of the Edison Banyan tree. Trees were pivotal within our evolution. Our prehistoric ancestors lived in trees which provided protection from predators. Comfort and shelter was central in the very last episode, Texas Shade, The Founder's Oak. Here's what guest, Kelly Eby, had to say. Audio Clip Kelly Eby: [01:51] The tree is a little less than 50ft tall and has 100-foot-wide canopy spanning in different directions. It just creates like a cover, a canopy, a roof where you feel like you are secure under the shelter of that tree with two main branches that come out. Doug: [02:17] Here's a great song by Van Morrison called The Redwood Tree, which is about a boy who lost his dog, which his father helped him search for. I think the redwood in this song is a lovely metaphor for both physical and emotional protection. Van Morrison: [02:33] Boy and his dog Went out looking for the rainbow You know what did they learn Since that very day Walking by the river And running like a blue streak Through the fields of streams and meadows Laughing all the way Oh redwood tree Please let us under When we were young we used to go Under the redwood tree And it smells like rain Maybe even thunder Won't you keep us from all harm Wonderful redwood tree And a boy and his father Went out, went out looking for the lost dog You know what oh haven't they learned Since they did that together They did not bring him back, he already had departed But look at everything they have learned Since that, since that very day Oh redwood tree Please let us under When we were young we used to go Under the redwood tree And it smells like rain. maybe even thunder Won't you keep us from all harm Wonderful redwood tree. Da-da, da-da-da da, da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da Du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du Du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du Da-da, da-da-da da, da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da. Doug Still: [05:17] A heritage tree is a living connection to the past. But to add to that, there can be very strong cultural associations as well. Trees can be symbols of bigger ideas, such as progress, art, or religion. They can provide affirmation of cultural identity. The Imperial Pine was a gift from Japan to the US that represented a peace offering decades after World War II. The elm tree in Concord, Massachusetts, that Henry David Thoreau wrote about symbolized to him the higher ideals of the past, as well as a burgeoning sense of pride in his young nation. In our show about the major oak of Sherwood Forest, guest Richard Townsley, known some days as the Sheriff of Nottingham, feels that visiting the 1,100-year-old oak tree associated with Robin Hood continues to be a cultural rite of passage. Audio Clip Richard Townslee: [06:11] It's just absolutely part of my heritage. It's part of my personal upbringing. As I say, I've got two granddaughters. One is three, the other is not yet one, and I'm looking forward to bringing the second one here. I think they're not a Townley until they've been into Sherwood, until they've dressed up as Robin Hood and they've run around and we've had a picnic. So, I'm very looking forward. Her name's Edith and she lives in Bath. We were discussing her being christened. She's going to be christened in a church in Bath. But I think for me, the christening will be when we bring her to the forest and introduce to the major oak. So, it's part of my family and my personal heritage. Doug Still: [06:50] I'm a big fan of the Australian band, Crowded House. The song I'm about to play is about the memory of a lost relationship that began in England, but transplanted to Australia. It's called English Trees. Crowded House [07:15] English trees in my garden. We planted seeds in a faraway land In between the palms and the succulent grove They lose their leaves in the winter Mark the seasons for him and for her Once upon a time in the fallen snow Up against the sky made a silhouette show England cries and she plays for him The chords entwined like a requiem Although it's springtime and color is new In Regent's Park I will mourn for you And I must be wise somehow 'Cause my heart's been broken down It's so far to fall And so hard to climb Nothing's sadder, I know Than the passing of time Won't forget me You won't forget me English trees in my garden Summer's missed you, my darling Yet all your crimes are forgiven Yet all your crimes are forgiven And I must be wise somehow You won't forget me You won't forget me And England cries, oh There's English trees in my garden Doug Still: [10:41] Stories about trees sometimes center around hope rising above terrible adversity. The first 9/11 survivor trees were symbols of resilience after that unthinkable act of terrorism that shook New York City, Washington, D.C., and the country. Their replanting and survival was a gesture to the future and better times. We found similar themes in the tale of the birthing tree, and also The Founder's Oak. In our episode, Harlem's Tree of Hope, about a street tree that became a good luck charm to black performers in the 1920s looking for their big break. Abra Lee beautifully expressed that the Harlem community reclaimed the symbolism around trees while creating their own modern, hopeful culture. Audio Clip Abra Lee: [11:28] The connection to the tree is certainly ancestral, it's communal. I think of trees of black people gathering under these mighty oak trees in the south that are along the river and having baptism. I think about people having full on church up under these trees. I think about the first reading of the Emancipation Proclamation stating that the Civil War was over and that slavery was no longer legal in the United States happens under a tree. So, that is where community happens for many black people. Tuskegee, one of the greatest universities in the United States, certainly the historic HBCU, historically black college university, is built on a former plantation covered in trees at that time. So, trees are, I think about them almost like you think about the grand ceilings of these churches all across the world. That's what that canopy is to people, to black people. These places where we can gather, and feel free, and be our unapologetic selves, and speak in the language that we want to speak and the street slang-- This is where we can create music, this is where we can exchange words and ideas. So, that is why that was important to that community. And honestly, I still would argue to this day. Doug Still: [12:53] Listen to this lovely song by Louis Armstrong with Gordon Jenkins and His Orchestra, Trees. It is Joyce Kilmer's poem of the same name, put to music. Louis Armstrong: [13:30] I think that I shall never see A poem as lovely as a tree A tree whose hungry mouth is pressed Against the earth's sweet flowing breast O, a tree that looks at God all day And lifts her leafy arms to pray A tree that may in summer wear Yeah, a nest of robins in her hair Upon whose bosom snow has lain Who intimately lives with rain [Incomprehensible] Poems are made by fools like me But only God can make a tree Doug Still: [16:04] When we come back from a break, I'll continue our look back with Season 1 guests and bring you more songs about trees. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [theme music] Doug Still: [16:30] Standing up against the big guy always makes a great story. Whether it's the king's henchmen in the Charter Oak tale, the Sheriff of Nottingham in the major oak of Sherwood Forest, or the profit seeking corporations featured in the Bronte Oak or in Luna, A Redwoods Survival tale. It turns out the story about Luna the Redwood was our most popular episode. Who can resist hearing about a two-year tree sit and its aftermath? Here's Stuart Moskowitz, the lead monitor of The Luna Covenant, struck with the logging company. Audio clip Stuart Moskowitz: [17:05] That was New Year's Day 1997. And yes, that's what-- They continued to log up on that hillside in the vicinity of the mudslide, and that's what attracted Earth First to target that hillside for a tree sit. And Luna was the largest tree. And so, different activists, they rotated sitting in Luna for several months in early 1997. It was towards the end of 1997 when Julia Butterfly Hill, a young woman who was recovering from an automobile accident, 23 years old, and looking for something to change her. She knew that she felt a calling to come out to do something in the redwood forests. The platform that was put 180ft up in Luna and installed during the dark of night, which is where the name Luna came from, meaning, moon, because that platform was built in the moonlight. Julia volunteered to take a turn up at the top of Luna. She had never climbed a tree before, but they showed her how to climb and she got herself up to the top. I think what made Julia different from the other tree sitters is that she is articulate and could speak to the cause well. And once she started talking and people started listening, she stayed. Doug Still: [18:44] One song that speaks to me about California and the questioning of tree loss is Big Yellow Taxi by Joni Mitchell. Love this song. Joni Mitchell: [19:03] They paved paradise, put up a parking lot With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swingin' hot spot Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They took all the trees put 'em in a tree museum And they charged the people a dollar an' a half just to see 'em Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop Hey farmer, farmer put away that DDT now Give me spots on my apples, but leave me the birds and the bees Please Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop Late last night I heard the screen door slam And a big yellow taxi took away my old man Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop I said don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They paved paradise Put up a parking lot [laughs] Doug Still: [21:07] Someone has to speak for the trees. How about the 87-year-old retired schoolteacher in Oakville, Ontario who spoke at regional council to save the 200 plus year old Bronte Oak tree from a road widening project? Her advocacy turned the tide of public perception and saved the tree, as told by guest in Oakville Councilor, Alan Elgar. Audio Clip Alan Elgar: [21:30] But you also have an 87-year-old woman named Joyce Burnell who came and spoke at the region and very colorful speech she gave to the region. She was the one that convinced the counselors. I sent out something about the oak tree, and she responded back to me and said, "What you're trying to do? I don't know you, but what you're trying to do, I really like and I like what you're trying to do." She had been a high teacher all of her life, a schoolteacher, and she said, "I'll do that," and she did. It was unbelievably beautiful. When she spoke, who was going to argue with an 87-year-old woman that was so passionate? She broke into a song singing, God, save our great oak tree and everything, that we have to save this tree. It's an important tree. It's historic. There's hardly any left in Oakville at all. They've all been cut down for massive ship years and years ago. It was here. It was a seedling in 1760. There is no way this tree should be cut. We have to save it. Doug Still: [22:43] The King of Trees by Cat Stevens, now Yusuf Islam, is about the exact same thing - losing a noble tree to a road project. Cat Stevens: [24:02] He was the king of trees Keeper of the leaves, A deep green guard of young Love-stained memory, We used to meet by him Far from the hustling town I loved you, Now they've come to cut you down... down He was the guardian of Days we held the same, Beneath the shade he gave Shelter from the rain, Oh Lord how it's empty now With nothing save the breeze I loved you, Now they've come to burn the leaves Don't burn the leaves And if my mind breaks up in all So many ways, I know the meaning of the words "I love you", And if my body falls inside An early grave, The forest and the evergreens Are coming to take me back, So slowly As I roll down the track The forest and the evergreen Are coming to take me back, The forest and the evergreen Are coming to take me back, Please take me back! He was the king of trees Keeper of the glades, The way he lightened my life Makes me so amazed, We used to meet by him Many years ago I loved you, Now they've to lay the road-oh-oh, Oh! Don't lay the road Doug Still: [27:42] For some people, a tree can bring back memories of a time in life when inner thoughts were important and growth happened. Maybe this occurred while sitting below in the shade or better yet, climbing up into its branches. We've had a series of tree story shorts submitted by listeners, which we're still accepting, by the way. If you feel the inspiration, here's a bit of one tree story short, submitted by author, Gil Reavill. Audio Clip Gil Reavill: [28:08] Early on, I was able to scramble into every area of the tree, into both of the asymmetrical branch networks. At the top of one was a thick, horizontal crook that served as a hammock. I could lounge there, close to the sky, largely invisible from Earthbound humans. As a kid, I was an inveterate reader. So, there are pictures of me in my apple tree aerie engrossed in a book. I remember being called down to the dinner table, but leaving books up there, so I could get to them later. But I think this solitary backyard apple tree represented a refuge, providing vital and necessary aid to my early physical development, yeah, but also helping to foster my imagination. The view from up there provided perspective. My ground level problems and preoccupations appeared puny. I could dream freely. Doug Still: [29:09] One of my favorites all time songs is about inner turmoil while watching others get to freely climb the trees. This is Boys in the Trees by Carly Simon. So beautiful. And oh yeah, that's James Taylor on guitar. Carly Simon: [29:45] I'm home again in my old narrow bed Where I grew tall and my feet hung over the end The low beam room with the window looking out On the soft summer garden Where the boys grew in the trees Here I grew guilty And no one was at fault Frightened by the power in every innocent thought And the silent understanding passing down From daughter to daughter Let the boys grow in the trees Do you go to them or do you let them come to you? Do you stand in back afraid that you'll intrude? Deny yourself and hope someone will see And live like a flower While the boys grow in the trees Last night I slept in sheets the color of fire Tonight I lie alone again and curse my own desire Sentenced first to burn and then to freeze And watch by the window Where the boys grew in the trees Doug Still: [32:34] One thing everyone can relate to is that trees are a place to meet. They serve as neighborhood landmarks for locals or council trees for First Nation tribes. One of our episodes focused on the birthing tree, a huge white oak with a spreading canopy in McMinnville, Tennessee. Guest, Tom Simpson, explains. Audio Clip Tom Simpson: [32:55] Well, the way the story is, is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky trail, the other one was called the Old Walton trail, which was in Middle Tennessee, this tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under the birthing tree. And so, as settlers would move down the trail, going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. And so, parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. And as they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees, hence the name birthing tree. Doug Still: [33:46] Here's a fun song about meeting at a tree, in this case, for love. This is The Mango Tree by the Zac Brown Band featuring Sara Bareilles. Zac Brown Band ft. Sara Bareilles: [34:04] Waiting for the sunlight to come rising from the sea We lay undercover Shaded by the mango tree We could stay forever Never leave this paradise Swaying in the ocean breeze to the rhythm of the tide Tomorrow, oh tomorrow Take your time, 'cause we got Time to borrow I love you Say that you love me too And we can turn the whole world upside down Just us two Nobody else will do 'Cause baby, you're the only one for me Underneath the mango tree Drifting like the ocean Daydreams dancing in the wind Sand is sticking to our bodies Just like sugar on our skin The day is getting older Oh, but we are still so young Higher than the stars above And faded like the sun Tomorrow, oh tomorrow Take your time, 'cause we got Time to borrow I love you Say that you love me too And we can turn The whole world upside down Just us two Nobody else will do It's me and you 'Cause baby, you're The only one for me Oh, you're so sweet Underneath the mango tree I love you I know you do Say that you love me too I love you too We can turn The whole world upside down Ah, just us two It's me and you Nobody else will do Baby, you're You're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Underneath the mango tree Doug Still: [37:36] Speaking of songs about trees, you know our theme song? Yeah, that's the one. Well, it was written and sung by a fellow arborist in Illinois named Dee Lee. After the break, we're going to meet him and find out what makes him tick. Coming up on This Old Tree. Doug Still [38:06] Dee, how are you? Dee Lee : [38:08] I am terrific. Doug Still: [38:10] Thanks so much for joining the show. Dee Lee: [38:12] My pleasure. My pleasure, indeed. It's been a great joy to watch your journey and it's just wonderful to tune in. So, I'm a big fan. Doug Still: [38:24] People tell me all the time, they love your song, This Old Tree, which you've allowed to be our theme song. When it comes on at the beginning, some people tell me, they like to sing along. Dee Lee: [38:37] Oh, no kidding. [laughter] Ah, that's a wee bit for me heart. Doug Still: [38:42] Yeah. [laughs] So, I thought it would be great for listeners to get to know you a little bit. I've introduced you on the show as an arborist and a songwriter. Which comes first? Dee Lee: [38:53] [chuckles] Songwriter, actually, came first. Doug Still: [38:58] Really? Dee Lee: [39:01] It actually was my next-door neighbors, this wonderful family called The Barrys. And they had four or five children, all of them musical, mother and father were musical. Their whole family between them. I don't know how many instruments they knew how to play. Doug Still: [39:23] This is when you were a kid? Dee Lee: [39:24] Yes. We lived right next door to them. As a matter of fact, the boy whose age was closest to mine was named Lee Barry. And they were thinking of naming me Barry Lee because I was one year younger than him. [laughter] They were wonderful harmonists. They could harmonize. They could play. Doug Still: [39:47] Really, a whole family. Like the Carter family or something. Dee Lee: [39:50] Yeah. They would do a Mama's & a Papa's with all the harmonies and the guitars. I remember one night hearing that, and I was just thunderstruck. I knew I had to learn how to do that. Doug Still: [40:03] Wow. And so, you learned guitar as a boy? Dee Lee: [40:08] Yeah. My cousins also were guitarists, and we would vacation with them. One of them brought a guitar up to the vacation spot, a little place across Lake Michigan, and they made the mistake of teaching me one chord. [laughs] Doug Still: [40:28] Oh, yeah. That first one is… I play guitar. Dee Lee: [40:32] Yes. Doug Still: [40:34] Amateur. But there's something about that first chord, and you're like, "I made that sound." Dee Lee: [40:40] Yes. It goes right into your chest. Oh, boy, they finally had to send me upstairs because [laughs] I was just playing an E and an E minor all night. Doug Still: [40:51] Yeah. You don't have to have a song. Just play some chords, and then you figure out how to tie them together. Dee Lee: [40:59] That's right. You let it come to you. Doug Still: [41:02] You're a finger picker, which I try to do, but it's pretty inconsistent. Did you learn the finger picking technique when you were a kid also? Dee Lee: [41:15] I'm not too sure when I started finger picking, but I think it was after hearing John Prine with his Travis Picking. I think I figured out how to do it. And then once I did that, it was just little experiments on moving things around, and I think it went off from there. Doug Still: [41:36] Right. How to move your thumb? Dee Lee: [41:39] Yeah. Doug Still: [41:40] So, then you needed a day job and you became an arborist? Dee Lee: [41:44] [laughs] Well, that came generations ago. My grandfather was a well-known nursery man in the area, Ralph Sinisvet.. Matter of fact, he has six or seven patents on plants which I get to see in my rounds as an arborist. I see something he created and hello, grandpa. [laughs] Doug Still: [42:07] Wow. So, you're in Illinois. Dee Lee: [42:10] Yes. Doug Still: [42:11] What's the name of the nursery? Dee lee: [42:13] Ralph Sinsvet. Doug Still: [42:16] Sinsivet. Dee Lee: [42:17] Yeah. Doug Still: [42:18] What were some of the cultivars they developed? Dee Lee: [42:20] Well, he had a wonderful Cornus mas. I can't remember the name of it. He had two varieties of Viburnum dentatum. I think one was Chicago Jazz. And I think another one might have been lustre. But he bred them out, so that they were nicely thick leaves and could put up with Chicago winters. And then he had locust. I don't think it was used much. I don't think it caught on much. It was the Green Glory locust. And then he had the most successful one, I think, was his low-grow-Sumac or grow-low, one of those two. And I see that everywhere. Doug Still: [43:04] Is that along highways and stuff? Dee lee: [43:07] Yeah, it's a great ground cover. It's woody. So, it can catch papers and things like Tony Aster's, [laughs] but it's beautiful. I see it a lot in islands where it just covers up the island and the weeds say, "No, I'm going somewhere else." [laughs] Doug Still: [43:26] So, trees were in your DNA early on as well? Dee Lee: [43:29] Yes. And then my father, he went to Northwestern for literature on the G.I. Bill, and then he ended up as the head arborist-- He worked for my grandfather, and he married the boss's daughter, so that was more tree stuff. And then as soon as I was allowed to, I worked in the Christmas tree lot, selling Christmas trees, and loading flowers and plants for clients in the retail shop. And then when I was old enough, I got up in the trees and I just loved it. Doug Still: [44:13] Yeah. So, you're a climber. I know that, because there's a picture of you way up in the canopy of a tree on a branch with your guitar. I can't see if you've got a harness on or anything like that, but anyway, you got the shot. Dee Lee: [44:27] Yes, I did have a harness. My one claim to fame was in 1979, I was the all-around co-champion for the arborist competitions in Illinois for the Midwestern states. Doug Still: [44:45] There was a climbing competition. Dee Lee: [44:47] Yeah, they have them every year. They have regions, and then the best get to go, and be champions of the world, I guess, the universe. Doug Still: [44:58] Congratulations. What year was that? Dee Lee: [45:00] 1979. Doug Still: [45:01] 1979. Fantastic. We had the ISA International Climbing Competition here in Providence in 2009. I remember that. It was lots of fun to watch. The climbers would go up and grab flags out of the tree, and there was an aerial rescue competition, all kinds of things. Dee Lee: [45:24] That's exactly what it was. Although back in my day, there wasn't an aerial rescue. I'm glad they added that. But it was the same thing where you had to go touch the bell on five flags, and then you had to get down, and they timed you. Then there was a log drop competition and a rope throw and a chainsaw event. Doug Still: [45:45] Wow. You're very talented. Dee Lee: [45:48] Well, like I said, it's genetic, I guess. Doug Still: [45:51] [laughs] Back to songwriting or actually, let's get to songwriting. What was the first song you ever wrote? Dee Lee: [46:01] Well, it was very complicated. I think it was 2 words and 2 chords, and nobody wanted to hear it. [laughter] Doug Still: [46:12] Got to start somewhere. Dee Lee: [46:13] Exactly. And I think there was another one I wrote while I was sitting under the piano. One of my sisters was practicing or something, and I thought of something there. And then my grandmother, who was a music teacher, she was a Burnham, actually, related to Daniel Burnham. And my mother thought, "Well, he has a love of music. Let's send him over to grandma for a music lesson or two." I was kind of high energy. Grandma got through one lesson with me, and that was the lessons that I had. Doug Still: [46:50] [chuckles] That was it. Dee Lee: [46:51] That was it. Doug Still: [46:52] That was enough. Dee Lee: [46:53] Yeah. Doug Still: [46:53] [laughs] So, then you became self-taught? Dee Lee: [46:57] Yeah, because I immediately wanted to take whatever it was she showed me and make a song out of it. I've always had melodies that just seem to want to come out and just following my nose through them and then trying to learn the chords that support them. I should have spent more time learning other people's beautiful music, but the drive for me has always been to get a guitar in my hand, and I just start tinkering, and playing around with it. Doug Still: [47:28] That's wonderful. This song is about a tree, but what other kinds of things do you write about? Dee Lee: [47:34] Well, I have some inspirational, you would call it, general uplifting spiritual. I think I have about 30 of those and lots of nature things. Trees seem to get into most of my songs. [laughs] Doug Still: [47:52] I was going to ask you, are there any other songs about trees? So, there are quite a few of them, huh? Dee Lee: [47:57] Well, there's some that have nature and trees in them. I've got three that are specifically now about trees. I have this old tree one called The Roots, which is just a simple one to help people understand roots a little better. And then there's one called Amber. I always fell in love with the idea that amber was actually a product of a tree that is millions of years old. So, that was sort of romantic. So, I wrote one about that too. Doug Still: [48:28] Yeah. Could you play a few bars? Dee Lee: [48:30] Sure. Doug Still: [48:32] I was hoping you'd say that. Dee Lee: [48:33] [laughs] Sure, I'll give it a try. I haven't played this one in a while, so you'll have to forgive me if it's rusty. I'll tell you what, how about I play the Roots? That's a fun one. It's kind of a choppy, fun song. It has a precipitation [laughs] where it's a call and response where I go, "It's the roots," and people go, "It's the roots." Anyway, it's very fun to play live. Doug Still: [49:05] Okay. Dee Lee: [49:05] All right. We'll try here. Here we go. This is called The Roots. Doug Still: [49:09] I'm interjecting here. The live recording technology didn't go so well. So, here's another live recording of the song, It's the Roots that Dee sent me afterward. Dee Lee: [49:21] There's buried treasure. Under every tree Let's dig it up together. Solve this mystery Here you go. It's the roots Unison: [49:37] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:38] Slurping up the water, it's the roots Unison: [49:41] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:42] [unintelligible [00:49:42] Unison: [49:44] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:46] Save it for later, it's the roots Doug Still: [49:57] Well, the song, This Old Tree, is about a tree that has been a witness to history. What inspired you? Dee Lee: [50:05] Yes, I just wanted to start writing songs about trees. I had this vision of a-- It might have been New England or it might have been an imaginary cove on Lake Michigan, where there was a small medieval town that grew up around this tree that was in the center of the town. It was big enough that even the boats coming in from offshore could see the top of it and used it as a reference point, and I just tried to put that into a song. Doug Still: [50:46] That's interesting. Yeah, there's a line in the song about boats. Dee Lee: [50:50] Yeah. That sounds what it is. Doug Still: [50:51] I didn't know quite what that meant, if it was along the sea coast or something. Dee Lee: [50:56] Yes, that's exactly right. It was a sentinel that they could see the top of its foliage from out far enough that they could use it as a bearing. Doug Still: [51:08] That's great. One thing I like about the song is, when it gets to maybe after the third verse, the chorus comes in again and you just raise the volume a little bit. I think that's really a moving part of the song. Dee Lee: [51:25] Oh, thank you. How did you like the bridge? Doug Still: [51:29] Yeah, it gets a little dark almost. Dee Lee: [51:31] It does, doesn't it? Doug Still: [51:32] Into a minor key? No. Dee Lee: [51:33] Yeah, it feels minor to me. Doug Still: [51:36] A lot of minor chords. Dee Lee: [51:37] Yeah. Doug Still: [51:38] Yeah. I'm playing songs that mention trees today on this episode. Do you have a favorite song about a tree or a forest, perhaps? Dee Lee: [51:50] No, not really. Not one that comes to mind. But I'm excited to hear what you're going to put in. Doug Still: [51:56] [laughs] If someone wishes to discover more of your music and maybe download some of your music, where should they go? Dee Lee: [52:05] Okay. You can download all of it for free. All you have to do is leave me an email and you won't get any spam, because I hardly ever send anything out. [chuckles] But it's deeleetree.com, and that's six Es. So, it's deeleetree.com. Doug Still: [52:25] And they can download for free? Dee Lee: [52:26] Absolutely. I'm tickled pink if anyone goes and takes a look. I don't have all my music there, but I have enough of it, so you can browse around and enjoy yourself. Doug Still: [52:39] Fantastic. Well, from the moment I met you on the phone a year and a half ago, you've been just so friendly and charming, and we instantly became buddies. I love the song, and it's been an honor to have it on the show every week, and it inspires me to keep going. Dee Lee: [52:59] Well, it's been my utter pleasure, and I'm so grateful that you found it. I think I always hope that my music goes somewhere where it can be useful and people can enjoy it. I'm just really grateful that you found a place for it on your wonderful podcast. Doug Still: [53:18] Thank you very much for coming on the show. And now, let's listen to the song in its entirety. I can't think of a better way to end Season 1. And just before we do, I'd like to thank you, tree lovers, for joining me on this journey this past year. I'm tremendously grateful that you listen. And the comments you send either via email or Facebook or Instagram are greatly appreciated too. Thanks to everyone who has contributed and supported the show in one way or another. Season 2 is going to be even better. I can't wait to share some of the ideas and the tree stories that are in the works. I'm Doug Still, and without further ado, here's Dee Lee singing what's become the theme song to This Old Tree. Dee Lee: [54:19] This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries Wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me About what it's like to be this old tree Shadow and shade, kids on the corner selling lemonade Send them down a cool breeze a sweet cascade Tailor made by this old tree In 1600 you were just a seed, reaching for the sky, high Waiting for a chance to take your place in the warm sunshine Here I go, high above the place were the people grow Leave my troubles on the ground far below So I can get to know this old tree Summer sparkle in your leaves, autumn winds will bring release Winter calls for you to sleep, Spring returns in green Above the town, ships on the water spy your royal crown Sentinel of green two points off starboard bow Homeward bound to this old tree In 1800 you felt the thunder roll, and lighting split the sky, high Though the fire raged in the little town below you managed to survive With this scar upon your side This old tree, reach out touch a living history Beneath my hands an ancient mystery How small I am by this old tree How small I am by this old tree [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Texas Shade: The Founders’ Oak (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 18 Published August 3, 2023 Emily: [00:02] So, Kelly, we're out here at Landa Park under The Founders' Oak. Tell me, what do you feel, what do you see, what do you hear while we're standing underneath this big guy? Kelly: [00:14] Just an amazing oak tree. Just a specimen almost beyond words. It almost looks like an alien sea creature coming up out of the Earth, spawned by the river with four humongous branches that rise up and create almost like a cathedral over our heads and shaggy, thick bark. Just a tree that's so tough that it stands the endurance of time. Doug: [00:50] The Founders' Oak of New Braunfels, Texas. That was an onsite description of it by Kelly Eby, the former Urban Forester of New Braunfels, along with Emily King, the city forester in nearby Austin. Emily is cohosting today as I've invited her to be the Texas correspondent for our show. There's so much to learn about this 300-year-old live oak, which has given shelter to a Spanish mission, a German prince who brought thousands of settlers, old Texas families that date back to the Alamo and the Comanche nation. Come along as Emily and I learn why this tree has been so important to so many different people for so long, especially now. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [Song - Jerry Irby] Doug: [02:22] So, Emily, I'm so happy to have you on This Old Tree. Welcome. Emily: [02:27] Thank you, Doug. Good to be here. Doug: [02:29] We've been corresponding about trees and the show. I said I've always wanted to do a show about a tree in Texas. Emily: [02:39] This is true. I did send you a fan girl email. And lucky me, you replied and were interested [giggles] in doing a show on a Texas tree. Yes. Doug: [02:50] [laughs] Well, I've learned so much in the interim. I've learned that trees are very, very important in Texas, and you've been involved in that tree world for quite a while as City Forester in Austin. Is that your title? Emily: [03:05] Yeah, I'm Austin's Urban Forester. And yes, we love our trees in Texas, and we've got some really neat resources online to help folks explore what we have, where they are, and pictures of them, and what their stories are. Doug: [03:22] One of them is the Famous Trees of Texas, which you pointed me to. Who's that run by? Emily: [03:29] The Texas A&M Forest Service hosts this website, and they keep it up to date. Doug: [03:35] It was fascinating. I got lost in all of the stories, clicking back and forth and looking at the trees. A lot of work has gone into recognizing historic trees all around the state. Emily: [03:48] Yeah, the state agency also maintains our big tree registry as well. So, if you like trees that are just big and might not have a documented story, there is something for that too. Doug: [04:00] We'll include that website address in the show notes. The Founders' Oak in New Braunfels caught my attention because of its unusual association with a German prince: Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels, of all people. So seemingly strange, right? Emily: [04:16] Well, to me, it's fun that jumps out for you. There's a lot of small German communities in and around Texas. So, I find it a little bit less surprising, but still very interesting. Doug: [04:30] But a couple questions came up that we decided to delve into together. Who were the founders suggested by The Founders' Oak, and what are their stories? Were their stories unique, or do they somehow capture the essence of the founding of Texas itself? Emily: [04:47] Yeah. Texas is pretty proud of its history. We have a whole theme park called Six Flags Over Texas that speaks to all the different flags that have flown over this state. And as we're going to learn more, the German history-- there was not a German flag flown here. There's also quite a bit of Native American history. Obviously, no flags associated with that either. So, there's layers upon layers of cultures that have inhabited this area where this oak resides. Doug: [05:22] So, we both interviewed a couple different people. And to start off, I had a conversation with Tim Barker, a longtime member of the New Braunfels community, who had a lot to share about the city's founding and the cherished oak tree that stood witness to it all. [music] Doug: [05:42] Hi, Tim. Welcome to the show. Tim: [05:44] Thank you. Nice to meet you. Doug: [05:46] Nice to meet you as well. I love your Texas shirt that you've got on. Tim: [05:51] Hey, how about that for the flag of Texas, huh? Doug: [05:54] [laughs] I love it. Tim: [05:56] Yeah. Texas are kind of proud. Doug: [05:59] You were telling me that you live right across the street from Landa Park and The Founders' Oak. Is that correct? Tim: [06:05] Yes. We're so blessed. I didn't realize that when I bought this property, I inherited that whole park, which means responsibility for taking care of it. Doug: [06:16] Yeah. Tim: [06:17] We have a tremendous parks department, but there's always things that need to be done, and they need to be reminded about the walls and the trimming and whatever. But they're wonderful people to work with. We've been here almost 33 years now. So, it's gotten better and better. Doug: [06:34] Wow. Isn't it an historic house? Tim: [06:37] Yeah, the house was built in 1846, and it's called a rubble construction. Doug: [06:45] Wasn't New Braunfels founded right about that time? Tim: [06:49] New Braunfels was founded essentially in 1845. So, it's a very close time frame. Doug: [06:55] Yeah. So, it was built the year after. Tim: [06:57] Yeah. right. Yeah. And the first owner's name was George [unintelligible [00:07:03], and he became one of the first mayors. Doug: [07:08] A German yeah, we're going to get into that. So, can you see The Founders' Oak from your house? Tim: [07:13] There are so many trees in this hilltop property, and in the Landa Park that I cannot do a direct sight. We're on the side of a hill. So, if I walk down to the road and look across, I can see it from the road. But it's just so many trees. It's not a direct sight. Doug: [07:33] Right. I bet at one point you could see the oak. Tim: [07:36] Main tree here we have is the Texas live oak. So, they really don't become dormant. They're pretty much all green all year round until May. March, when they drop their leaves. So, that's the main type of tree between here and The Founders' Oak, which is a live oak tree also. Structurally, it's very pretty. And to me, I think of it like a big chandelier, and that it's so tall. Sometimes, when the tree gets older, they don't have as many leaves, but they have a lot of branches. So, you see these protruding things that go out. Doug: [08:11] That's great. I've never heard a tree described as a chandelier. So, it's like an upside-down chandelier. Tim: [08:17] Yeah, I guess, you say upside down. Anyhow where its location, it protrudes over such an area, so you can look up and see the big branches that are all around. Doug: [08:27] Oh, I see. And then the branches dangle down like a chandelier. Tim: [08:31] Chandelier. The crystals on a chandelier. Doug: [08:33] Right. That's beautiful. How far back does your family go? Tim: [08:38] I'm a 6th generation. And my great, great, great grandfather fought for Texas independence from Mexico at the Battle of San Jacinto. And so, that battle followed the battle at the Alamo in which Texas got whipped there. And so, that inspired a lot of so. His involvement was to take care of the mules and horses that are involved in supporting the military. Doug: [09:07] Tim explained that New Braunfels has always been all about the springs. The Founders' Oak has had all the advantages. Tim: [09:16] From my garden, I can see the big springs that come out from the mountainside and make a big turn and go into a lake, because all Landa Park is encircled in water. The water is so clear. Right now, we don't have enough of it, but it's so clear. Doug: [09:36] You're not a stranger to drought. Tim: [09:39] No, but I still don't like it. [laughter] Doug: [09:43] Right. Tim: [09:43] Especially being a gardener and seeing things suffer, that's the hard part. Doug: [09:48] What's your first memory of The Founders' Oak? Tim: [09:52] Well, when the six families would get together and come to Braunfels and everybody brought their fried chicken, we set up a table by, there's a little pool here, it's called the Kitty Waiting pool. I guess, we have a very large spring fed pool, which is one of the largest in Texas. Thanks to all spring fed, but it's just all the greenery. Doug: [10:18] You're so lucky you have that spring. Tim: [10:21] This is really the start of, what they call, the hill country. There's an old joke about why didn't Jack and Jill go up the hill, because they lived in a hill country. Well, I'm on the side of the hill going up, and there's an escarpment. And from one side, it goes all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico, and it's a rich, cultivated land, whatever. And then you do this climb up into, what we call, a hill country, and it's all limestone, a beautiful coverage of the live oak tree. Doug: [10:55] Do you think that the oak survived this long because of the springs and the availability of water below ground? Tim: [11:01] Absolutely. To be that size-- I have a huge oak in my yard too, but it's not as big, as old as that one, but also have the native Texas pecan tree, which is almost as big in diameter. That's because at that level, there's seepage from the springs, from the route of the springs that are able to come over in water, because unless pecan trees get water, they don't do anything. Doug: [11:34] That's the tree of Texas, right, the state tree? Tim: [11:38] You're right. Doug: [11:39] So, thanks very much for sending the recent book. It's called New Braunfels' Historic Landa Park: Its Springs and Its People. So much appreciated for that. Could you tell me about the authors? Who are Rosemarie Gregory and Arlene Seales? Why did they write this book? Tim: [12:01] Well, they are both yokel locals, people who grew up here. Best friends. You don't see one without the other. But Rosemarie has always been the one who wrote a book about different things, and I think that she felt there was something missing and not a complete history of Landa Park. So, I think that she said it's time to do it. So, being Friends for Landa Park Board Members, she tapped everybody. She knew everybody. She knows their dogs, their maiden name, and all kinds of things. She has tremendous memory recall. She's about 90-ish, thereabouts early. Doug: [12:43] She's in her early 90s right now? Tim: [12:44] Yeah, right now. But she volunteered to do it. Not only did she have the desire to do it, but she knew all the people who had the money to help fund this. So, we had to go to those folks to get the seed money for publishing the book. She was very successful. Doug: [13:02] So, she's a local historian. She has a column, right? Tim: [13:06] That's right. Every other week in the local newspaper called the Herald Zeitung. Doug: [13:11] The book on Historic Landa Park is a treasure, and Miss Gregory and Miss Seales should be proud of their achievement. In fact, the best way for Tim to discuss New Braunfels history was simply to quote the book. It's all in there. So, we said that New Braunfels was settled in 1845 or became a town, but before that, it was a Spanish mission. Could you tell me who was there and what happened to it? Tim: [13:37] Yeah, there's not a lot of information about that. So, let me just read you what's written in the book here, because that's about all that I know too. Let's see. The mission was established near the springs in 1756 at the urging of the Mayeyes, an Indian tribe, M-A-Y-E-Y-E-S, a band of the Tonkawa tribe was the mission they called Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. frequent raids by the Comanches caused the mission to be abandoned in 1758. So, here it was two years, and it's gone. Doug: [14:18] Did not last very long. Tim: [14:20] No. San Antonio, that's the spot where all the 1,700 missions, and they're about four or five. My wife and I were married in one of those beautiful, beautiful Spanish missions. Doug: [14:31] I see. So, that was not a major part of the New Braunfels history. Tim: [14:36] No. Doug: [14:37] But you mentioned the newspaper is the Herald Zeitung, which is a German word for newspaper. Tim: [14:45] Right. Doug: [14:46] So, the town of New Braunfels has a really fascinating beginning, because it was settled by a German prince who was also a military officer, Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels. Tim: [14:58] All right. Doug: [14:59] Who was he, and what was he doing coming to the Texas frontier? Tim: [15:05] Okay. I'm going to read from the book here because they say it very well. German Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels was the Commissioner General for the Society for the Protection of the German Immigrant in Texas, also known in Texas as the German Immigration Company. So, they had an organization called the Adelsverein, the Society of the Nobleman. Its members were royalty. Their purpose was to relieve overcrowding in Germany by settling fellow countrymen in a new land, and in the process, obtain a good trading partner. Their main interest was to make a profit from future business arrangements in the colonial establishment while establishing new homes for their fellow Germans. Doug: [15:55] I see. So, it was overcrowding. I know that there was constant warfare in that time too, so that might have had something to do with it. Tim: [16:04] Yeah. And I don't think that people could own their land, but here you got land. When you came, you were given a certain amount of land. It's yours. Yeah. Doug: [16:14] Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels was a minor German prince whose family had lost its land during the Napoleonic period in the early 1800s. Subsequently, the German states were ruled by Austrian leadership. Carl was landless, so he became an officer in the Austrian military and later the cavalry of the Grand Duchy of Hesse. During his service, Prince Carl read books about Texas, and was enraptured by the promise of open land and fertile country. He joined the Adelsverein, becoming its commissioner, which was a society established by German dukes to organize mass immigration to Texas. They thought this could be a new Germany . Texas, at the time, was selling land grants to encourage settlers. The Adelsverein already had the rights to one large land grant, and Prince Carl made the long exploratory trip to Texas during the summer of 1844 to check it out. When there, he determined that the perfect location for a settlement was nearby along the Guadalupe River. It had flowing springs and of course, our esteemed live oak tree. On behalf of the Adelsverein, he purchased that land too. The new colony was called New Braunfels. More than 4,000 Germans immigrated to New Braunfels in the surrounding area. Prince Carl had returned to Germany and never made it back to Texas. It turns out he didn't have much business acumen and wasn't so good with the logistics of colonization. It was messy business and the founding of the town was left to his successor, John Meusebach. You can read all about that history, but let's just say it wasn't easy. I just did a little bit of reading, and Prince Carl apparently read about Texas. There were these books circulating about Texas and he thought this was a great place. Tim: [18:15] Yeah, and there are pictures, graphic things showing what New Braunfels looked like through the eyes of the artists. So, they would send those drawings to the people in different countries to invite them to come. That was certainly the case in Germany. We have some of those nearby here too, where you have the graphics of it, which is really very pretty. Doug: [18:40] I would love to see some of those drawings. Do you have them in town? Tim: [18:44] I'm sure, I know we have some at the library. There's so many pictures and different books about large groups sitting under The Founders' Oak that represented some convention that was here. But it's always been a spot where there's water and there's shade, so you can't beat that. That environment to where all these mill things were is now owned by a group that has every year, a big Wurstfest celebration in November. It incorporates all those buildings and the water. It's just a beautiful spot. Doug: [19:22] So, that's a German celebration. Are there still a lot of people of German descent in New Braunfels? Tim: [19:27] Oh, yeah. We're members of the St. Peter and Paul Catholic Church here. And sometimes, when certain of the German families show up, they fill the whole pew. It's about 12 people in there. So, there's still a lot of German people who are very active and were really instrumental in getting things started and organized, and keeping an eye on things. Doug: [19:53] You mentioned people meeting under the tree. Do you know of any specific meetings or stories about that? Tim: [20:00] Yes, there's one picture in the book that shows the organization, I guess, throughout Texas of people who were involved with granaries, and that was what Landa's business was. So, they have pictures of them in areas that he developed and pictures of them underneath The Founders' Oak. Downtown is just like three blocks away from Landa Park. So, any activity that was downtown always went to Landa Park for anything, a picnic and big dance floors. When Harry Landa had it, they had concession stands, so it was an attractant to have people come after they had parades or whatever was going on downtown. Doug: [20:50] And so, the tree was a witness to it. Tim: [20:53] Yes. [music] Doug: [20:55] We're going to take a short break. When we come back, Emily speaks to Kelly Eby about how The Founders' Oak attained its official status as a famous tree of Texas, and about some of the preservation efforts over time. But while its name relates to the founding of New Braunfels by European settlers, the tree is receiving new recognition that is long overdue. The Founders' Oak had already been sacred to the Comanches. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Song - Jerry Irby] Emily: [21:56] Hey, Kelly. Welcome to This Old Tree. I am excited to talk with you today about The Founders' Oak. We've known each other for a while, yeah? Kelly: [22:05] Yeah. At least, gosh, at least 16 years, maybe. 15 years? Emily: [22:13] I'm thinking so. My recollection of getting to know you better was skeet shooting with an ISA Texas board members retreat out in College Station. I feel like that might have been 2008, 2009. There's a lot of foresters in Central Texas, but I do feel like it's still a small community. So, when you start doing this work in this vicinity, you kind of meet everybody. Kelly: [22:41] I always say the tree world is a small world. [laughs] Emily: [22:45] Right. Well, so, I'm curious, Kelly, when you became the Urban Forester for New Braunfels, did you already know about The Founders' Oak? Kelly: [22:55] I attended Wurstfest, which is a popular German festival when I was a child, but I do not remember the rest of the park. So, I interviewed for the position as the city's first Urban Forester back in 2008. I remember driving in to do the interview, and just seeing a mystical landscape with the crystal-clear water. It was cold outside, so the river was steaming, look at this giant mystical tree. So, it was one of the things that drew me in for sure. The tree is a little less than 50 ft tall and has a 100-foot-wide canopy spanning in different directions. It just creates a cover, a canopy, a roof where you feel like you are secure under the shelter of that tree, so with two main branches that come out. It leans over pretty well and is covered with rough textured bark that makes it gnarled, and old, and ancient looking. So, it's pretty mystical to look at. Emily: [24:24] So, I am curious, Kelly. So, you didn't really necessarily know very much about the tree when you started that position. Was it yet designated one of the Famous Trees of Texas? Kelly: [24:36] It received that designation later in about 2010, I believe. We started the application process, and then 2012 is when it finally received that designation. It was a very thorough application process through the Texas A&M Forest Service. What was really interesting was, they hadn't had an application for a famous tree in like 50 years. Emily: [25:07] Oh, wow. So, did you initiate that application process? Kelly: [25:13] I did. I had a lot of help from volunteers. There are a lot of community advocates in New Braunfels Garden Club members, Friends for the Preservation of Historic Landa Park. There are a lot of people that have a vested interest in the health of the trees in their community, especially in that park. We had some challenging droughts in about 2011, where I had to engage the community and our park staff in doing more work to preserve the trees. They did install a drip irrigation system in 2010. We amended the soil with compost. We mulched the tree. We did a root collar excavation to ensure there was nothing restricting the growth of the tree around the base of the tree and that it wasn't compromised, monitored the vigor of the growth of the tree on the tips of the leaves, [giggles] and pruned the tree of deadwood. Emily: [26:25] Well, I want to go back to that famous tree designation. Just this past weekend, I got a copy of Famous Trees of Texas. It's a first edition print. This is a beautiful book. I flipped through it looking for your tree, looking for Founder's Oak. And only after flipping front to back did I realize, "Oh, yeah, this is a first edition. It came out in 1970." I don't think I knew before this conversation that you were the one that initiated that designation. So, I really want to give you a high five and a pat on the back. That's nice work. Kelly: [27:04] Like I said, it was a group effort. [laughs] Yeah, they even held a contest back in 1986 with the sesquicentennial celebration to name the tree. And the woman who named the tree, she was in attendance during the-- She came to the celebration. So, that was pretty amazing, that they were able to hunt her down and she was able to attend the celebration. Emily: [27:37] Oh, that's fantastic. Who else do you remember being there at that celebration? I guess, it's been about 10 years ago at this point, but-- Kelly: [27:44] New Braunfels has been through a lot, a cultural hotspot. So, they included the indigenous nations. Dr. [unintelligible [00:27:59] came to speak. I believe he did some flute music as well. He's very well known in our region. There's a lot of history of indigenous people around the springs. They found a lot of archaeological items that date over 10,000 years from different tribes. They had Spanish floor [unintelligible [00:28:35] dancers come, because there used to be a Spanish mission in the region. We had a bagpiper [laughs] through personal knowledge. Texas bagpiper, Robert Eby, my husband also was there. Texas A&M Forest Service, Paul Johnson, Dolores Schumann, lots of really great people that helped bring the cultural history of that area. So, that was really, really, really fun and a magical event. Emily: [29:17] Do you have a favorite story related to Founders' Oak? Kelly: [29:23] I think one of the things I wanted to also mention is there's a photo in the park's office from over 100 years ago with German settlers picnicking under the tree. It always struck a chord, because they're wearing so much clothing. [laughs] They're wearing long dresses and long sleeves and hats, and I'm just like, "Well, they're enjoying the air conditioning under the tree." That shade just has provided so much for people for so long. [laughs] But there have been other people that have cared and maintained the tree. We also had Jess Divin, who was a forester for New Braunfels and currently now Josh King. I know that everyone is trying their best to keep it around for the future generations. [music] Doug: [30:30] In addition to the Famous Tree of Texas designation, our tree will be receiving an entirely new honor. In fall of 2023, The Founders' Oak will officially be recognized as a Comanche marker tree. To learn more about this fascinating topic, I was pointed to Steve Houser, the person in Texas chiefly responsible for putting marker trees on the map. Quite literally, his humble nature and great respect for the Comanche nation quickly became apparent. Steve: [31:01] Well, I am a certified arborist, consulting arborist, and tree climber for over 43 years in our area. I am also the chair for the Texas Historic Tree Coalition's Indian Marker Tree Committee. Doug: [31:20] Great. So, you're a tree climber too. I didn't know that. Steve: [31:23] Oh, yeah. Most all of my life till I got older. Doug: [31:26] [laughs] Steve: [31:27] I still climb, but not like I used to. [laughs] Doug: [31:30] Well, welcome to the show. Steve: [31:31] Oh, thank you for the opportunity. Doug: [31:33] First of all, what's the Texas Historic Tree Coalition, and how did you become involved in it? Steve: [31:39] Well, the Historic Tree Coalition is an all-volunteer nonprofit, established in 1995 primarily to fight a battle over trees at a local hospital. Since that time, we fought many battles over the years. One of the things that's on our website is our handbook for tree advocacy that we encourage people to use if they're fighting their own battles in their own areas. But shortly after we established, we realized that we can't preserve trees that we fail to recognize are significant. That's the bottom line. We started to realize, we've got to start recognizing all the significant trees we can find in the state. Doug: [32:26] Right. You'll have a stronger argument and preservation if you say, this is an historic tree. Steve: [32:31] Right, and that's part of the purpose. So, our mission is to find, research, recognize, preserve, and celebrate significant trees in the state of Texas. Doug: [32:42] That's fantastic. How long have you been in existence? Steve: [32:46] Since 1995. Doug: [32:48] I wonder how many trees you've saved over that time? Steve: [32:51] [laughs] I don't know. But I can tell you it's been hundreds of battles in the area over trees and really around the state. Doug: [33:00] It's interesting you phrased it in terms of battles. Have you, over time, found that the battles are becoming more cooperative as your educational efforts have increased, or just over time? Steve: [33:14] Oh, I think people are becoming more aware of the benefits of trees, probably the last 5 years or 10 years than they were previously. Secondly, we're always very reasonable and responsible in the approach that we take. So, we're not emotional out there, chaining ourselves to trees and things like that. We're very reasonable, responsible, fact-based types of information that we gather. So, we base our battles a lot of times on just the facts. In 2005, we convinced Dallas Mayor, Laura Miller, to establish an Urban Forest Advisory Committee in the city. So, we've worked with the city on all kinds of different things since that time. One of the purposes was, we always fought these battles as outsiders. They always called us outsiders. So, this gave us an opportunity to be insiders that we were appointed by the mayor, and that forced people to listen a little bit more. Doug: [34:17] That's fantastic. I love that approach. I understand The Founders' Oak in New Braunfels is being designated an official Comanche marker tree. Could you tell me what a marker tree is? Steve: [34:29] Well, a marker tree is one that was used by American-Indian tribes for various purposes, such as turning trees, ceremonial trees, treaty council trees of which The Founders' Oak, which was recently recognized, was considered to be a council oak, which means that the Comanches, their different bands, would meet underneath it. Sometimes, other tribes would meet underneath the tree, primarily because of the significance of the area. Landa Park is well known for their Comal River that goes right through the park near the tree. It's one of the largest springs nearby in the state of Texas that has fresh, clean water. The Camino Real Trail, which is one of the earliest trails in the state of Texas, went right through the park. So, it was an easy argument on this one to point out that the Comanches had to have been there in the past. Doug: [35:32] So, this tree isn't just a marker tree. It's also a council tree. Is there a distinction? Steve: [35:39] Well, it is a type. There are many different types of marker trees, and the council oak is just one of the different types of marker trees. So, the Comanches don't really recognize a trail marker. They call them turning trees. So, if you're going down a trail and you find one of these trees, it told you where to turn. You’ve got to remember, even today, if we tell somebody directions out in the wilderness, it will be go to that odd shaped tree and follow the direction that it's pointing. So, even if it was created by nature, it doesn't mean it's not a marker tree. Doug: [36:17] Many of the marker trees have been shaped over time, but that's not necessarily– Steve: [36:24] Right. And that's the first thing that people think a marker tree has to bent. How we find them? The process is explained more in our book, Comanche Marker Trees of Texas, which was published about 2016. That gave us the opportunity to tell the Comanche story about these trees. Doug: [36:47] Now, you co authored that book, correct? Steve: [36:50] That's correct. Doug: [36:51] And the other author? Steve: [36:53] The other author is Jimmy Arterberry, who is a tribal elder. He was the tribal historic preservation officer for over 20 something years. He was also the tribal administrator for the tribe for a few years, not too long ago. So, he's pretty well known in the industry. The other author was Linda Pelon, who is a professor in anthropology as well. The process that we use to identify them, but it begins when somebody submits an application and photographs, a lot of times, through our website, which is txhtc.org. So, they submit information, we review it. Some of them are ruled out pretty quickly because they're just not large enough or old enough. You have to understand that the Comanches haven't been in Texas for over 150 years. It requires at least usually a 20-inch tree or more to qualify as being old enough. Doug: [38:02] Where are they now? Steve: [38:04] Up in Lawton, Oklahoma. All of the tribe was moved up to Oklahoma over 150 years ago. So, 20 inches is kind of the bare minimum. That's the smallest that we found that was growing on solid rock, and we found it to be old enough due to ring dating. A lot of times, we'll take off a dead limb. I don't want to be disrespectful of the elders and the tribe, and I don't want to core bore into these trees because if they are true market trees, the last thing I want to do is damage them or hurt them. So, I take off dead limbs, read the growth rings to determine a growth rate, which gets me in the ballpark as to how the tree may be. So, if a tree has potential, we typically ask for more history on the site, more of the details if we can find them, and then we go out to visit the tree to collect more data and photographs. So, the next step after that is to research the tree, the site, the area to ensure the Comanches were likely to have been on the site and to find the purpose of the tree. Sometimes, it's a grove of trees that what purpose did they serve. In other words, all marker trees had a purpose. The archaeologists that we work with have a lot of information that helps us to qualify a tree. With The Founders' Oak, there's archaeological research on that site that goes back thousands of years, which helps us to prove that it was a very important site to tribes even before the Comanches were here. Doug: [39:50] So, who decides that a particular tree has met all of the criteria, and yes, it's going to receive this specific designation? Steve: [40:00] Well, that's one of the things. Once we've researched everything on a site that we can find, the purpose for the tree or trees, we respectfully submit the information primarily to Jimmy Arterberry for consideration. Doug: [40:17] So, it's the tribe that ultimately decides. Steve: [40:20] Right. I'm just a volunteer that works on the process, supplies the information. They're the authorities that recognize the tree. And out of, what, 800 trees now and almost 30 years of working on it, I think we're up to about 15 trees or 16 trees. There's other tribes around the nation that seem to recognize their presence or the presence of market trees. But to the best of my knowledge, the Comanche are the only tribe that officially recognize trees today or in the recent past, which makes them very unique from that perspective. Another reason that I'm so proud and honored to be able to work with them, as well as many other reasons. So, Comanche marker trees are considered to be sacred to begin with. The Comanche have a great reverence for trees and for nature. The first time that I was really getting to know them, we were walking to the first tree that we ever recognized. I was talking to James Yellowfish, one of the tribal elders, and I said something to him about, "You guys seem to know a lot about nature." He took off his glasses, grabbed me by the shoulders, and pulled me up to where our faces were a few inches apart, and he said, "We are one with nature." It raised goosebumps on my arms. It still does when I think about that day. I think being one with nature is not something the public even thinks about today. Nature is something that's outside, we're inside. So, being one with nature was, that one phrase that he gave to me, really hooked me on this, and I thought, "Oh, this is something I've got to spend time on." Doug: [42:02] That's powerful. Steve: [42:03] You've got to consider what was important 150 years and 200 years ago, food, water, shelter, and direction. And marker trees provided a lot of that. So, you also have to consider that we took American-Indians away from their land, and the way we treated them was just absolutely sickening to me. This is why certain trees and specific sites in Texas mean a great deal to their cultural heritage, and why working with them, to me, is so important. If you really learn about the way that we treated the American-Indians, not just the Comanches, it's heartbreaking. And so, I feel that I'm doing my part. It won't ever make amends for what's happened, but I always try to do my part. So, when we celebrated a tree a few years ago in Holliday, Texas, which is one that we recently got on our website, there was over hundred tribal members that came to that event to celebrate it. So, that gives you an idea of how important that tree is to their culture. I will state one of the things that they told me once, and that was that Texas history didn't start when the white men arrived. That's so true. There's a great deal of tribal history that's not well known or explored. That's why Jimmy Arterberry wrote, it's a Comanche Nation research report for the Texas Department of Transportation. That's on our website. So, if you really want to learn a lot about the Comanche history from somebody who really knows, you can go to our website and find that text report. There are other tribes that we do work with. We've recognized historic trees like, down in Waco a number of years. We work with the Waco, Wichita, Keechi or Kichai, Tawakoni, and the [unintelligible [00:44:03] Indians, which are all together in one office, actually up in Oklahoma, to recognize some of their trees. Now, they aren't really considered marker trees, but they are historic trees that have a play in their history in Texas as well. Once a tree is finally recognized, to me, it's very rewarding. I've always been proud and deeply honored to be able to work with the Comanches to help them reconnect with a significant part of their history. That's basically what I do. It's very rewarding to be able to actually have one that's recognized and it turns out. [theme music] Doug: [44:44] You've heard Jimmy Arterberry's name come up a couple of times. The Comanche Nation tribal elder, former administrator, and historian. Well, Emily had the privilege of speaking with him, and we are very lucky to have him on This Old Tree to talk about the search for Comanche marker trees, and the meaning behind it all, coming up after the break. [Song - Jerry Irby] Emily: [45:39] Jimmy, I feel honored to talk with you this afternoon. This is a treat. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Jimmy: [45:48] Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about the topic today. Emily: [45:53] Yes. Well, it's a tree topic. We can't go wrong. It's a tree and culture topic. There's a host of different types of marker trees that indicate different things. And you described it as a taxonomy of marker trees. I find that really, really interesting and would love to dig into that a little bit more. Jimmy: [46:16] That's exactly right. A lot of people, when they hear marker trees, they do, what you just mentioned about, modified or bent tree, something kind of unusual. But the reality is that, the chapter in my book is called Comanche Marker Tree Taxonomy: Comanche Marker/ Turning/Pointing/Leaning/Bent Trees (Medicine Trees). So, the idea is that a marker tree doesn't have to be one that has been modified. It can be one that through the years has just grown naturally, but stands out in a landscape or at a location that marks a spot or that people maybe intuitively are drawn to that tells a story about a place. I consider all trees, service trees. They all serve a different purpose. Some for medicinal, some for food, and other uses. There's a lot of uses for trees. So, that's the great thing about creating this taxonomy was from a Comanche cultural perspective. So, it's the idea was to say, these are the type of trees that mean something to us that we used for various purposes. But the beauty of it is that amongst all cultures and all communities, they can decipher themselves, because if they understood that taxonomy, they could actually create their own to satisfy their own understanding of what a tree in their community or in their culture means to them specifically. And around the world, it's like different cultures use trees as a means of, like I said, either ceremonial purpose, religious purposes, medicinal council, gathering places, even just trees that kids like to climb because they're enticing. Emily: [48:07] It really does take you down a path. I think about trees that I can easily draw to mind in my vicinity and my geographic area and which ones I unconsciously use as marker trees for this or that. When we spoke the other day, I shared driving to my mom's house. There's a tree that marks the two-thirds of the way there. Jimmy: [48:35] Yes. Emily: [48:37] It's so just very picturesque. It's very huge. It's at a bend in the road. It absolutely is a marker tree for me. [laughs] Jimmy: [48:45] It's really very fascinating because people can really connect. It's a serious, light hearted subject. I know that working for the tribe-- Of course, I'm retired now, but working for the tribe many years, at one point early in my tenure, I was in charge of the environmental programs. We always had Earth Day. Some of the things we did were give away little seedlings or little plants, trees, and people loved it. Who doesn't want to plant a tree in their yard, especially if it's like a pecan or a plum or a fruit tree. The rewards are delicious. [laughs] Emily: [49:22] Exactly. The fruit net trees always go first at our tree giveaways down here as well. Jimmy: [49:28] And in a historical narrative, it's amazing how many political governmental actions have taken place historically underneath the tree. And for me, a Comanche tribal member, I think about that. Emily: [49:42] Yeah. Well, you mentioned just the ways that those trees provide service, right? They're not only beings in our landscape. They're providing all kinds of service. Yeah, that resonates, right? So, this special tree down in New Braunfels, The Founders' Oak, it is to be designated as one of the Comanche marker trees. What kind of hoops does a tree have to jump through in order to get on your radar or on the council's radar to receive that designation? Jimmy: [50:16] Well, that's a really interesting process. Some of that criteria is knowing our history and when we appeared in certain parts of the country as Comanche people. And so, we look at it from a historical narrative. One of the points in the evaluation is determining the age of the tree. Especially, if it's been a modified tree, the question becomes, is it within this time frame to have been modified? So, we considered archaeology and we considered the science of the trees themselves. To my own historical research and stuff, consider the timeline of Comanche movements on the landscape, and the various bands associated with Comanche culture and activities. I ask more questions, generally. I don't just accept that. Then I start asking my own questions on top of the information they've gathered. Then at that point, our tribal community is involved, especially our elder council. I know some of the times they've even gone to our tribal business council to ask for a resolution of support of recognizing these trees. Emily: [51:23] Well, as I've been thinking about this tree and thinking about this process and thinking about our conversation, one of the things that's really stood out to me is that these big old trees in our landscape, they're absolutely living artifacts. My wheels are turning about how does that really get picked up and recognized, right? Jimmy: [51:46] I'm really excited because I think about-- I think I shared this with you before, but I'll share it with you again. But here where I live, there are these beautiful, they call them catalpa trees. They're fragrant, they flower. What's interesting is here where the prairie grass grew, and now there are lots of trees, trees were not here when it was Indian country still. But now we have these beautiful trees. Actually, they came with the Chinese immigrants. So, I think, wow, how exciting that maybe the African-American communities or the Latino communities or even the Asian communities can consider here in the United States, those cultural resources and maybe have their own taxonomies and experts to establish some parameters, and work with all of us to talk about these living artifacts. Emily: [52:41] It's a very inclusive process, right? Jimmy: [52:43] Yes. Emily: [52:43] Like you said, just because a certain tree might not qualify for this specific designation, it doesn't at all exclude it from being recognized elsewhere. Jimmy: [52:57] Yeah, because we don't want to discard. We don't want to discard, because what's important to one group or community or culture may not hold that significance to another. Even here in Oklahoma, I think about the Oklahoma bombing. There is a tree that survived that blast that's in the garden with the monument that people really ascribe spiritual purposes to. So, if we say formally this is a Comanche market tree, and like, in this case, that you're talking about the council oak, we recognize that as a council oak because of council that was held there under that tree. But it has a rich history of other communities, even the German community, that have through the years utilized that tree for various activities, including religious as well. If a tree has a designation like that, it's not like we have ownership. We're just saying that we recognize it as being important to our culture. The great thing is that lots of cultures and communities can join in to celebrate our connection as people to a location and specifically a tree. Isn't that awesome? Emily: [54:12] It's so inclusive. I love the idea that these trees and this tree, this Founders' Oak in particular, it's providing shade to all the cultures that have inhabited this area for hundreds of years. Jimmy: [54:28] Yeah. And linguistically-- Of course, there's a scientific name for these trees and stuff. But linguistically, in different cultures, we have names for those trees as well. So, in our book, we include some of the names in our native tongue as Comanches, which is Numinu, an Uto-Aztecan language. So, we've included the names in our own language of the type of trees and identified them as such. But it's awesome to be able to recognize it in your native tongue. Emily: [54:57] That makes me happy to hear it. Jimmy, this is great. I really appreciate you spending the time talking about the trees, about the designations, about your experience with them. Jimmy: [55:10] I really appreciate you reaching out to me and just having this conversation. So, thank you. Thank you for having me hosting me. [audio cut] anytime. [This Old Tree theme music] Doug: [55:26] Emily, what a great talk you had with Jimmy Arterberry. The Founders' Oak seems to be part of a much larger cultural history. Emily: [55:34] Doug, you know what really grabs me is just this idea that Founders' Oak has provided shade indiscriminately, right? It's there and it's been there. This tree has provided service to all the cultures that have inhabited that area. That really resonates for me. Doug: [55:58] I feel also, that the tree embodies hopes and dreams. I've got that sense from some of our guests. Emily: [56:06] Sure. Well, standing underneath it-- everybody's going to have their own, right? And my take was just, it was simply gravity defying, Doug. The amount of mass that is suspended over the ground and that you can walk under and still feel protected even, these are massive trunks suspended right over where you can walk. Doug: [56:37] I feel like the story of Texas and The Founders' Oak are wrapped together like dry rub on barbecue. Emily: [56:43] Ah..(groan and laugh). Doug: [56:44] Sorry about that. Emily: [56:45] [laughs] This tree, and trees like it, are living artifacts. These represent another era while simultaneously taking up space and existing in the here and now in our modern day, this tree has persisted. We can have marker trees in our lives that don't have to have a documented story behind them. Trees are special on their own, individually, you and I, we can place meaning on them. And that's still important and that's still special. Doug: [57:20] I love that. Emily, it was a blast working on this with you. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for being the Texas correspondent. Emily: [57:31] I've had a really good time, Doug. Thanks for the opportunity. I'm so glad to have gotten out to the park and visited this tree despite the summer heat. This has been really fun. Doug: [57:42] We'll be in touch soon. I'm sure that there are more trees to discover. Emily: [57:46] Call me when you're ready to come to Texas again. Doug: [57:48] Thanks, Emily. Emily: [57:49] [laughs] You bet. Take care. [This Old Tree theme music] Doug: [58:08] Thank you for listening to This Old Tree. I'm Doug Still. I hope you enjoyed it. And many, many thanks to the wonderful Emily King of Austin, Texas, for co hosting this episode about The Founders' Oak, as well as to all our guests: Tim Barker, Kelly Eby, Steve Houser, and Jimmy Arterberry. You can find out more about their work, their books, and their websites in the show notes or by visiting our own website, thisoldtree.show. I'll be posting pics on Facebook and Instagram. By the way, the music you've been listening to is by Jerry Irby, who is a country singer-songwriter from - you guessed it - New Braunfels, Texas. See you next time. [Song - Jerry Irby] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] |
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