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This Old Tree with Doug Still
Tree Story Shorts III (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 4 January 8, 2024 Doug Still: [00:05] Hi, all. Welcome back to This Old Tree, the show that features heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug Still and today I've got a third edition of “Tree Story Shorts” for you. This is when guests take over and submit their own stories about trees they're thinking about or that have a special meaning. In this episode, we're going to hear about Charles Darwin; bride and groom trees; a massive American Elm in Illinois; Al Capone; original tree-inspired music; a tree used for meetings at an army base; and a moving story from war-torn Ukraine. Tree Story Shorts. Coming up on This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:06] We start off with a story from Rob McBride, a tree-promoting celebrity in the UK known as the Tree Hunter. Rob has been finding and recording Britain's ancient trees for nearly two decades. His collaboration with the Woodland Trust and other work he's done has been covered by the BBC and the New York Times. And he's an ambassador for the European Tree of the Year contest. His passion for old trees is contagious. Recently, he's been leading a public campaign to save a tree called the Darwin Oak, as well as other veteran trees from a proposed road project near his hometown. Rob McBride: [01:44] Yeah, my name is Rob McBride, sometimes known as the Tree Hunter. I am based in a small town in North Shropshire called Ellesmere. So, very close to Wales, about a mile from the Welsh border and about 15 miles away from Shrewsbury, where I was born, which is where the Darwin Oak sits gracefully for the last 550 years. In recent times, the last 30 or 40 years, there's been a push to get almost, well, a complete circle around the county town of Shrewsbury. There is a bypass existing road, but many people with more commercial interests want to complete the circle and build what many feel is a non-necessary road. And that's the starting point, really. We don't want the road. So, on that premise, in 2010 - I think I was off work at the time with a broken wrist or something, I'd done something. So, I went and I surveyed the route and I surveyed about 80 veteran trees at the time that I felt would be affected by the route. Overall, now with the latest plans, I think they're looking at felling over 1200 trees. And when I did my initial survey, I was only on the north side of the river. Having then been contacted years later when the road project resurfaced, I went the other side of the river and met a fantastic lady called Karen Pearce, who runs Love Shelton Rough it's called, a group on Facebook. And Shelton Rough is an area where the Darwin Oak sits and grows, and it's very close to Charles Darwin's home. Obviously, coming from Shropshire, I knew Charles Darwin was from Shrewsbury. But until we had the meeting, I didn't realize how close he lived to that part of the town, Shelton. And subsequently we got talking and they said, “Oh, he just lived over there.” So, Karen and myself, we said, “Wow, Darwin lived there.” And I've had experience of naming trees like “The Oak at the Gate of the Dead” in 2006, which is now quite a famous tree. And I've written a piece this year-- last year, sorry, for King Charles there is a new book that came out. He picked that as one of the best trees in the country. So, when you name a tree - it's a very hot topic at the moment with the politicians, they're very upset. They're now calling it the “so-called” Darwin Oak. They're casting doubt about the authenticity of why it's called this. It's only just been called this recently, but you've got to name a tree at some time. So, Mike Streetly, who is a very learned chap, he visited the National Library of Wales and has found Darwin's notebooks and photographed them, where he mentions that he walked with his father in the fields where the Darwin Oak grows, looking for shells. It was all part of his many research projects over many years. Initially, he was born there and lived there till he was about 17, and then he moved away and did the expeditions and then he came back at various times. But there's documentary evidence that Darwin was traipsing around these fields and there's no doubt in my mind that a tree that would have been then 300 years plus, so a mature oak tree, a large oak tree, would have caught his attention. And it doesn't take much speculation to think of him wandering around, feeling a bit tired and having to sit underneath the shade of the tree. This tree is around 7 meters, so 23, 24 feet in circumference, in girth as we say. Well over 500 years old. It's been aged by one of the arboricultural specialists in Shrewsbury. It's a mighty, mighty impressive oak tree. But from that meeting where there were several people, Tory councilors, who spoke, the language they used to talk about nature led me to come out with the statement that, "We're dealing with dinosaurs here." I said, "I can imagine Darwin sitting under there thinking about evolution. And then, you've got these dinosaurs roaming the corridors of power." And that was a quote that the newspapers quite liked. I suspect it didn't gain me any friends in the corridors of power and the shire hall etc. We're living in one of the most nature-depleted countries here in the UK on the planet now, and we've got a duty to our kids and our grandkids to try and rapidly reverse this trend of destruction and greed. So, when you're against these people, you really do have to try and up your game. I persuaded them to call it the Darwin Oak in the end, and it's taken off really from there. And hopefully-- like we've had a painting we did in Sheffield. I took quite a famous artist, the youngest artist to ever paint Her Majesty the Queen, called Dan Llywelyn Hall, a Welsh artist, I took him to Sheffield and it was very successful. And we had an outdoor painting-- paint-off day, if you like. And there's going to be an exhibition in March for 100 artists to exhibit their Darwin Oak masterpieces. I'm hoping a friend of mine, I call her a friend now I speak to her reasonably often, is Bianca Jagger. I'm hoping Bianca will come up to open the exhibition. We'll see. I might have to go to London and pick her up. But anyway, we'll see. One ceramicist, fantastically skilled Lady Ruth Gibson, she has a studio in the town, and she took Darwin Oak leaf molds and she's produced 500 ceramic leaves with a gold flash on and all, that you can buy for 5 pounds. And they sold out very quickly, so she's doing another batch of them. So, when you have art involved with trees, it brings a different dimension to it. But there are a series of events coming. There's a Ceili, there's a dance-off. There's a legal challenge hopefully being mounted. If we can gain enough money from an appeal and the petition, if you can sign the petition at change.org, Save the Darwin Oak. So, yeah, I'd just like to say thanks very much, Doug, for the opportunity to chat here today. And number one, sign the petition. Number two, if you've got a spare pound or two, try and help the legal challenge to get the road project reviewed. And number three, we are hoping that they are not like Sheffield Council and are not going to come in the middle of the night and chop the tree down before the road has legally been given the go-ahead. We're just hoping. It's a bit of a big hope that politicians do the decent thing. But anyway, we hope they do. [music] Doug Still: [08:35] It was really cool getting to know Rob. Clearly many other people feel the same way he does about the Darwin Oak, as the petition has received over 95,000 signatures as of this recording. You can also check out Rob's other work at thetreehunter.com or @thetreehunter on Instagram. No doubt the British revere their old trees, and technically the next tree we'll hear about involves Brits too, although they were colonists in Amherst, Massachusetts, prior to independence. Guest, Georgia Barnhill, tells us about an historic sycamore there, which was one of a pair planted in the 1760’s to celebrate a young couple's marriage. Georgia Barnhill: [09:18] Hi, I am Georgia Barnhill, president of the Amherst Massachusetts Historical Society, and I am eager to share information about our groom tree, a sycamore located in front of our headquarters. The tree is an icon in the center of town. Its crown, possibly 100 feet tall, towers over town hall and church steeples, and has its own lightning rod. It's not as tall as the sycamore some miles north in Sunderland, but it has a long, interesting history. In about 1756, Nehemiah Strong built a house for himself and his wife, Hannah. The house became the property of the historical society in 1916. In 1761, Nehemiah Strong gave the house to his son, a graduate of Yale in 1756 who had returned to Amherst after studying law. We speculate that Nehemiah Strong gave two trees to Simeon when he married Sarah Wright on January 12, 1763. There was a custom of planting two long-lasting sycamores to celebrate marriages, and such trees were referred to as bride and groom trees. The groom tree, now some 250 to 270 years old, outlasted its owners by two centuries or more. The bride tree was removed in 1957 because of accumulated storm damage. The groom tree was probably a sapling even before the town of Amherst was chartered in 1759. Perhaps, indigenous people used the bark of our tree's parent as little dishes to gather berries. Once the sapling was transplanted, it continued to grow, possibly as much as 2 feet per year as the Massachusetts Bay Colony evolved into the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. After the revolution in Daniel Shay's rebellion in the 1780s, the tree flourished as Amherst Academy was established in 1814 across the road. Emily Dickinson would have seen it every day when she attended the school from 1840 to 1847. It has provided shade for countless residents and visitors, and its button balls and shed bark have been a source of wonder and enjoyment for Amherst children for generations. Preserving ancient trees is an act full of meaning. Yes, the leaves capture their share of carbon dioxide. But the existence of the groom tree also speaks to the expectations and reputation of a family. The tree recalls the Strong Family, one of the most important in the town's early history. Simeon Strong was a Tory during the revolution, but remained a respected member of the community and the commonwealth. After his death in 1805, the bride and groom trees lived on. Simeon Strong Jr. and his wife, Louisa, lived in the house from 1806 to 1841, and they too enjoyed the shade of these trees. Other families came and went. Yet, the groom tree remains. We hope our descendants will continue to revere the groom tree and to applaud the new bride tree as it grows, prospers, and watches over the activities of the historical society and the town. Recently, a grant from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts allowed for work to be done on the tree to keep it healthy and for a new bride to be planted to replace the missing one. The tree conforms to the mission of the historical society, which is to connect people to the history and culture of Amherst. Please come and see our tree. [music] Doug Still: [12:40] Thank you, Georgia. You know, I occasionally hear about the old tradition of bride and groom trees, but as far as I can tell, they are largely undocumented. I imagine many of them are still around us here on the East Coast, often with a missing partner. Wouldn't it be a great project if someone would research and collect information on them somehow? I'm talking to you, grad students. Definitely something to be proud of at the Amherst Historical Society. As a former city forester, I know how important it is to protect old trees, keep them safe and healthy, and help people overcome their fears of them. That's why I easily relate to the next story by Joe Hansen, who, like me, is an urban forester. He also hosts a show which you need to check out. It's called The Municipal Arborist Podcast. Easy to find on all platforms. He's here to tell us about an American elm that has spanned the generations. Joe Hansen: [13:35] My name is Joe Hansen, and being as I am the host and producer of The Municipal Arborist Podcast, I thought it would be fitting to discuss a significant tree from my previous role working as the urban forester for the city of Park Ridge, Illinois. I've since moved on to a role in another village. However, this particular tree will remain in my memories. The city is located in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. In fact, its southern border is adjacent to Chicago, and the tree resides in the 400 block of Wisner Street. I received a resident request to inspect a parkway tree who reported that it had a cable dangling from one of its limbs. Upon arrival, I found the tree did indeed have a cable which had snapped. The cables installed were meant to assist in structurally supporting the tree, and this tree was impressive. It was a large American elm tree measuring 67 inches in diameter, or over 17 and a half feet circumference. Its stout trunk took up nearly the entire parkway and split to four very large leads, which created the iconic vase shape that, when adjoining other elms, would create the infamous cathedral line streets which existed prior to the introduction of Dutch elm disease, which wiped out the majority of these native trees in North America by the 1980’s. We checked the state's champion tree list and no other recorded tree matched its size. Of course, I imagined they did exist, they just hadn't been documented in Illinois. I spoke to the resident named Warring, who invited me inside. I typically do not enter residents’ homes. However, he was very kind, warm and welcoming, and he seemed like he just needed some company for a little bit. He was in his late 80’s, early 90’s. He moved pretty slow, but he enthusiastically shared with me that he had lived in this home his entire life and it was at first his grandmother's home. He also shared with me some old photos of the tree dating back to the 1940’s. One of these photos was with him and his grandmother standing in front of it when he was a young child. After speaking for a bit, I eventually left and we had our contractors trim the tree and install some new cables. Several years later, I received a request to inspect the tree from the home's new residence. Unfortunately, the previous owner had passed away. The new residents were concerned of the massive tree potentially failing onto the home where their newborn slept, a concern that I have heard many times before. We went ahead and hired a consultant to perform some advanced testing on the tree, who determined it did not require removal. However, we did perform some more maintenance on the tree and installed some cables again. I shared the story of Warring with the new residents as well as the old photos I had of the tree. They were happy that the tree was still standing, as was I. But they were also happy that they can continue on the legacy of the property and this iconic tree, and they understood the importance that it had to the community. I share this story with you because often, working as an urban forester, we receive resident requests to remove parkway trees or prune parkway trees that don't require pruning because they're afraid of the tree failing on their house. Or conversely, after a tree has been removed, they don't want a new tree planted in the parkway. We often fail to realize that these trees outlive many of the residents who are living in these homes. And Warring is a great example of that, even though he had lived there into his 90s. But most homes people are only living in for a few years, maybe 10, 15, 20, when in fact, that tree may see three, four, five different residents living in that home. And that tree is an important piece to the urban forest. It is a great component of a community. [music] Doug Still: [17:31] I love that Joe is able to make that connection to the past for the new homeowners, which the elm embodies. I think an overlooked part of our job is that placemaking aspect. When planting and preserving trees helps define space and the passage of time. In a strange way, we're the guardians of history. Moving into stranger territory, sometimes trees have stories that are, well, infamous. Like Al Capone infamous. Grayson Bo Guthrie submitted this next piece that looks back at the famous criminal and a cherry planted in his honor. Grayson is a flower farmer, a florist, and also a Baltimore tree keeper. The TreeKeepers, is Baltimore's free citywide tree stewardship program, open to all residents interested in helping the city's trees. Its umbrella organization with many partners is called Tree Baltimore. Here's Grayson. Grayson Bo Guthrie: [18:28] Hi, I'm Grayson, and this is the story of the Al Capone Tree, which is this tree that grows in the Union Memorial Hospital courtyard in Baltimore, Maryland. And this tree, when you first approach it, what you notice is that it's a very bizarre looking tree. It looks like if you cut two trees in half and you paste one on top of the trunk of the other. And as it grew, that's exactly what happened. It's a scion that was taken from one tree and grafted onto the root stock of another tree. So, it's a weeping cherry tree. It has beautiful flowers in the spring. And the reason this tree was planted was because in the 1920’s, Al Capone was this raging gangster. And Al Capone contracted syphilis in his early 20’s. So, he was very, very sick by the time he was incarcerated and in his final year in prison, actually, he was just confined to the hospital ward. So, when he was released, his cronies said, “Wow, we really need to take you to the hospital, boss.” So, they brought him to the closest hospital, which was Johns Hopkins, and they said, “No, we don't treat felons. No, thank you.” So, then they brought him to the next closest hospital, which was Union Memorial Hospital, and they said yes. So, as a thank you, Al Capone's cronies planted this cherry tree. And it's actually a tree that has been cloned, and now there are several little Al Capone trees throughout the courtyard of Union Memorial Hospital. When I lived in Charles Village, the neighborhood that Union Memorial Hospital borders on, I used to take my friends on walks and tell them that story about this tree because it's such a cool tree with such a cool history. And everyone gets excited about trees when they learn about that story. [music] Doug Still: [20:47] That reminds me of a poem. “I think that I shall never see. a poem lovely as a tree that recalls a crook's STD.” My apologies, Grayson and weeping cherry trees everywhere. Thank you so much for an entertaining story. The next submission is a first for this old tree and I'm so excited. A story told to an original composition about a tree. It's by Kamala Sankaram, an exciting composer who moves freely between the worlds of experimental music and contemporary opera. She's written a number of operas, including The Last Stand for the trees of Prospect Park in Brooklyn, Looking at You, a techno noir featuring live data mining of the audience, and the Parksville Murders, the world's first virtual reality opera. As a biracial Indian American and trained sitarist, Kamala has also drawn on Indian classical music in many of her works. She's won a number of awards and grants, and most recently was performing artist in residence at Brooklyn Botanic Garden addressing the theme, Power of Trees. Here's Kamala. [music] Kamala Sankaram: [22:03] This is a story about a copper beech and the song it inspired, which is the song you're hearing right now. Hi, I'm Kamala Sankaram. I'm a composer and singer living in the Bronx, and even though I live in the Bronx now, this is not where I grew up. I grew up on the west coast in California, in a valley an hour inland from San Diego. The landscape where I grew up had a lot of scrub brush, grassland, wildflowers. And while it was beautiful, it was very, very different from the lush forests that you find in New York. I moved out here to go to school and I was immediately fascinated by this difference. The huge deciduous trees, the way that their fiery fall displays were so different from the consistent greens and browns that I grew up with. And when I moved to the Bronx, I discovered Wave Hill, which is a garden on a former estate overlooking the Hudson River. Not only did I discover Wave Hill, I discovered what I like to think of as my copper beech. The tree is to the left of the main gate when you come in part way down a grassy slope, and it's hard to miss because it's enormous. The first time I saw it was in the springtime. Its canopy was fall and a deep red color with branches that arched over to touch the ground, creating this almost perfect circle around the trunk. And I had never seen a tree that looked like that before. I was immediately drawn to it, drawn to go and sit among the roots, to be surrounded and shielded by that perfect canopy. And that is a feeling that has not left. No matter how many times I visit it, no matter how many people I bring. I like to think of it there, its silent presence across the years and centuries. And that's really where this song came from, is imagining the perspective of this tree. The song, Beech Face, because I love a good pun, is performed by me and my band, Bobby Ricky. And the lyrics are simple. Standing tall, bright red crown touch my face and time slows down. So, you think that you've seen all there is to see, but you don't know what I have seen. [Beech Face song plays] Doug Still: [25:29] Kamala, that was amazing!I know that stunning beach tree, and I can see how it would inspire music that is pulsing with energy. Keep doing what you're doing and listeners, you can find out more about her work at kamalasankaram.com. Shifting gears completely, this past summer I was at a reunion for my husband's family at a resort in North Carolina, and I had an hour to waste before the next event. So, I sat down at the pool bar and ordered a drink, and this guy sat down beside me and we struck up a conversation. Turns out his name is Lawarren Patterson and he is a retired army major general who has been all over the world and has earned a long list of decorations and service awards, too long to go into here. Who knew that we would become friends? And who knew that he has a wonderful tree story to share with the world? Lawarren Patterson: [26:26] Hello. My name is Warren. My tree story starts in 1988 in Germany. At that time, I was a young army captain, and I was fortunate to be commanding a company of 190 soldiers. My office was located on the first floor of the same building where my soldiers lived. We called it the barracks. Directly across the street from the barracks was our company motor pool, where our vehicles were stored and our soldiers worked. So, you can imagine the foot traffic that occurred all day, every day. One fine April morning, while sitting at the desk in my first-floor office, I happened to spin my chair around to look out the window and across the street towards our motor pool. Also, in front of my window, about 15 feet away, was a beautiful, large tree. It was such a beautiful day and out of the blue, I suddenly thought how nice it would be if I could work outside. Then, it dawned on me. “Hey, you're the boss. Why not?” So, I grabbed a small folding table known as a field table and a folding chair from our supply room in the basement. I set the table and chair up under the tree. I then went back in my office, grabbed my inbox, we didn't have computers back then, some pens. And I opened my window and set my desk phone outside on the windowsill so I could hear it if it rang and pick it up from my new outdoor location. The minute I sat under that tree and began to work, I felt an immediate sense of calm and relaxation. My soldiers, walking to and from our barracks building and motor pool, didn't know what to think. In fact, more than a few had asked me in passing, “Everything okay, sir?” Me sitting out under that tree a few times a week to do my work not only impacted me in a positive way, but my soldiers as well. They started talking about how different and cool it was to see the boss sitting under the tree and working. After doing this, a few weeks, various soldiers started coming over to the tree and asked why I was sitting outside and working. Then they would ask if they could sit and join me for a few minutes. My reply was always, “Yes, of course.” And they would sit down in the grass, and we would have wonderful and honest discussions about them, our organization, the military, and life. I learned so much about my soldiers and what was going on around that I started calling the tree my learning tree. That title came from a movie directed by the great Gordon Parks in the late 1960s. For the remaining 28 years of my army career, I always found the tree to sit under and work and read and converse with others. I had a learning tree during two assignments in Germany, two assignments in Korea, and assignments in the United States. Thank you for listening, and I invite you all to go out and find your own learning tree at home or at work. You will be pleasantly surprised at the positive impact it will make on you, those around you, and your organization. [music] Doug Still: [29:33] Sometimes, a small shift from normal routine can capture attention and shake up how we relate to each other, and trees have served as meeting places since time immemorial. It seems to me that's what happened under the learning tree, where commanding officers and subordinates could reveal themselves a bit more as human beings. Our last story today is an extraordinary one because it is submitted by fellow tree advocates in Ukraine. The speaker is Olena Kozak, and she is representing a nonprofit called the Ukrainian Environmental Club, Green Wave. They are a team of ecological experts and members of the environmental community whose self-described mission is to educate people, minimize negative effects on the environment, and take care of the present and future of humankind. Olena tells us about a 600-year-old oak tree in the city of Irpin, which is near Kyiv. It's amazing what they've endured and what they are doing to make our world better against brutal forces. Olena Kozak: [30:38] My name is Elena. I am a member of nonprofit organization Ukrainian Ecological Club, Green Wave, and today I will tell you the story of 600 years old oak in Irpin as a symbol of invisibility. Irpin is a picture town near Kyiv. It's known for its serene beauty, surrounded by lush forest and adorned with ancient trees, some of which have stood for over a century. However, in the year 2022, the tranquility of Irpin was shattered as Russian forces occupied the region, transforming the once-peaceful streets into echoes of unsettling shelling. During the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the city was damaged by 70%. In that anxious time, many giant trees took the brunt of the shelling, protecting houses and people. One of these trees was a 600 years old oak, which became a symbol of invisibility, a silent guardian of the town and its people. A few years prior to this event, the colossal oak faced its own battle for survival. The tree began to dry for an unknown reason. Concerned residents of Irpin initiated a tree survey and develop an action plan. Based on the results of the expert examination, it was decided that in order to save the tree, it is necessary to remove the covering, change the water and kettle, cut off the dead branches, and process the cavity and hollows. As a result, the condition of the tree improved. During its century-long history, the oak has seen many events, but it has never seen such cruelty as from the Russian invaders in 2022. Destruction and house rained all around. People, houses, trees and everything around were destroyed. In the face of adversity, the trees became a defender, symbol of hope, a beacon in the darkness of time. The Oak of Irpin become a living testament to the power of unity, resilience, and the unwavering belief in a better future. In 2023, expressing gratitude to the silent heroes, the residents of Irpin initiated an inventory and evaluation of the ancient trees. The aim was to designate them as local botanical monuments, ensuring they receive the care and recognition they deserve. The initiative symbolizes not just a commitment to preserving nature, but also a collective acknowledgment of the strength and endurance embodied by the ancient trees that had become symbols of hope in Irpin's turbulent history. Doug Still: [33:47] Wow. You've got to hand it to people who are fighting to preserve trees when they are fighting to preserve their own lives. There was a woman from Green Wave out of Ukraine named Oleksandra who spoke at a conference in Washington, DC recently, the World Forum on Urban Forests. I attended her talk, which is where I heard about this amazing group of urban foresters. She said she and her colleagues took a pause during one of their projects to ask, "Why are we doing this when there is a war going on and we are fighting for our country and our survival?" And the answer was,”Because we have to. This is what we do. This is what we do.” [music] I'd like to thank you for listening today to this collection of Tree Story Shorts. And I'd like to thank all our guests for taking the time to submit audio stories. Rob McBride, Georgia Barnhill, Joe Hansen, Grayson Bo Guthrie, Kamala Sankaram, Lawarren Patterson, and Olena Kozak, and all members of the Ukrainian Ecological Club, Green Wave. Keep checking in on Facebook and Instagram. I'll be posting pictures of many of these fascinating trees, and other information and links about them can be found in the show notes and on the website thisoldtree.show. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. See you next time. [music fades] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
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This Old Tree with Doug Still
Europe’s Tree of the Year: The Fabrykant Oak (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 1 December 13, 2023 [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: Hello, tree lovers. I'd like to draw your attention today to a special oak tree in Poland, a Quercus robur, which we call English oak here in the United States. It was named “The European Tree of the Year” for 2023, and it resides in the city of Łódź, which I learned is correctly pronounced “Wudch” in Polish. To win, it received over 45,000 votes from people all across Europe, more than the second and third place trees combined. That is mind blowing to me, that many people tuned in and were inspired to vote for a tree. I've got one of the contest coordinators here to tell us how it all works. I also spoke to the entrepreneurial young man who nominated the oak tree, as well as the leader of Klub Gaja, the nonprofit that helped promote its cause. Lastly, the director of the environmental management division from Łódź describes how the people of the city identify with their old arboreal denizen. But clearly, it doesn't stop there, as its story captured the hearts of people across Poland and frankly, around the world. I try to find out why. Coming up, The Fabrykant Oak. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:59] “Fabrykant” in Polish means manufacturer or factory owner. In fact, the Fabrykant Oak is adjacent to a large old mill and two historic villas owned by the factory's owners that now belong to the Łódź University of Technology. So, you can bet we are going to get into some history. But first, a description so you can picture it. The tree is the centerpiece of a small park accessible by the public, and it is magnificent. One guess is that it is 160 years old, or even older, but its age is uncertain. It stands 22 meters or 72 feet high, 179 cm or 57 inches in diameter, with a spread of 30 meters or 98 feet at its widest point. The open-grown oak tree appears to have never been pruned, except probably for dead branches, allowing its lowest limbs to spread far, wide and strong. In fact, one low branch in particular is a showstopper with a curvy S shape, described as sigmoid. It extends horizontally about 72ft across the lawn, ending with an upturn over the pedestrian path, making people duck. It's as if the tree is reaching for human contact, tapping you on the shoulder to say, “Hey, notice me over here.” [03:24] People come from all over to visit for its beauty alone especially in the spring when the cameras come out to capture the tree surrounded by a carpet of blue Siberian squill blooms. Everyone I talk to mentions that. No question, the Fabrykant Oak is stunning. Is that why it received so many votes? [03:45] To get a better understanding of what the contest actually is, I spoke to Adam Golub, the coordinator of the European Tree of the Year and all of its public relations. He works for a nonprofit called the Environmental Partnership Foundation, which is based in the Czech Republic and sponsors the competition. Adam actually lives in Brussels, where he represents the organization at the EU level. He was kind enough to talk to me. [04:12] Hi, Adam. Welcome to This Old Tree. Adam Golub: [04:15] Hey, thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:17] To start off, what is the Environmental Partnership Association and what is its mission? Adam Golub: [04:22] So, the Environmental Partnership Association is a consortium of several like-minded environmental foundations or organizations. They were set up in the 90’s with the help of German Marshall Funds and the CS Mott Foundation and several other philanthropic foundations from the United States. And their mission, their individual mission of all these different national foundations and organizations is, among other things, education in the broader sense of the word. In the environmental sphere, there's a lot of emphasis on participation of the public in the decision-making processes, again as they relate to the public space or the environment, together form this association, which then in turn is responsible for European Tree of the Year. But I'm sure we'll be getting to that soon. Doug Still: [05:22] Yeah. How did the European Tree of the Year contest come about? Adam Golub: [05:26] Well, the roots of the European Tree of the Year reach all the way to a city called Brno in the Czech Republic, in Moravia, Eastern Czech Republic. Where in the early 2000’s people working in the Czech Environmental Partnership Foundation, the Czech mutation of these organizations had the idea to revive these local traditions that had to do with decorating and celebrating trees and to give it a bit of a more contemporary spin. So, in 2002, they came up with this essentially Czech Tree of the Year competition and started running it and have been running it since. Doug Still: [06:12] Sure. So, that's been going on for 23 years or 22 years. Adam Golub: [06:17] Exactly. And then as it started getting momentum in 2011, the first European level contest took place, which basically treats the national rounds, which have spread to 16, perhaps even this year, 17 countries, it treats these national contests as national rounds that select the participant trees for the pan-European. I say pan-European, the caveat being that no country is per se excluded, but it also depends on whether the country has an organization that participates. Doug Still: [07:04] So, each country needs to have their own Tree of the Year Contest first, and then the winner of that branches off into the European Tree of the Year Contest. Can more than one tree be submitted at one time? Or it's just the one tree? Adam Golub: [07:20] No, they only submit one tree at a time. Doug Still: [07:23] I see. So, this is a competition for trees with an important story. It's not just about a tree's size or beauty. It's about-- Well, what are the criteria that people vote on? Adam Golub: [07:36] You said it. If I were to really simplify it, it's about the tree with the strongest story. Now, these stories contain elements of the relationship of the communities that live in their vicinity to the environment, to nature. The stories have to also underpin some relationship within the communities themselves, or they don't have to, but they usually do. That is what is being appreciated. Doug Still: [08:08] So, it's about trees, people, and culture. Adam Golub: [08:11] Exactly. And the relationship between them. Doug Still: [08:15] How do the finalists get promoted and how do people vote? So, this is a voting competition? Adam Golub: [08:22] Yes. The organizations that nominate the trees that had organized their national rounds are also responsible for the promotion. They can do that in whatever way they wish. Social media is very popular. And there is of course also the promotion by the Environmental Partnership Association and the Czech Environmental Partnership Foundation, which more generally promotes the contest as a whole and always mentions all the different trees that compete, for the lack of a better word. Doug Still: [08:56] Right. So, there's an online-- There's a website, I bet. Adam Golub: [08:59] treeoftheyear.org is the website for anyone who'd be interested. That's the website of the European level of the contest. And then, you vote using your email. It's been always the case that everyone was supposed to vote for two different trees. So, you have the finalists from all the different European countries. And in order to avoid everyone just giving it to their tree, we included this rule that you need to choose two trees. Doug Still: [09:30] And what happens when they win? Is there a celebration? Adam Golub: [09:33] There is an embargo on the results for a while, right until the end of March. The final phase of the voting is secret as well so that no one knows who's the winner. And then, end of March or second half of March, there is a ceremony, an award ceremony, which usually takes place in the building of the European Parliament in Brussels. Doug Still: [09:57] I see. And that's where you are? Adam Golub: [09:59] And that's where I come into it. That's when it becomes my responsibility to make sure that we have the relevant members of the parliament on board, that we have the representatives of the European Commission on board, ministers. Doug Still: [10:15] That's wonderful. I bet there are great photos of these celebrations. Adam Golub: [10:19] Indeed. And what's even more important for me about them is that it's these members of the local communities that reach out and nominate their trees to the national contest that are then invited to the European Parliament and they get to meet all these stakeholders, all these decision makers or co-decision makers, and it creates rather wonderful moments and opportunities for people who would not normally meet to come together and share their appreciation of trees and nature. Doug Still: [10:55] Yeah, it's an opportunity for advocacy. Adam Golub: [10:57] Absolutely, absolutely. That is what it is. And it's one of the main aims of the award ceremony itself to create such space. Doug Still: [11:08] What is special about the Fabrykant Oak? Adam Golub: [11:11] For me, an interesting thing about the Oak Fabrykant is that it does not immediately fit the usual tree of the year profile. If you look at the different contenders, you see that more often, you find them in rural areas or sometimes outright in the wilderness. The link between them and the local community is a looser one. It's not something that you see every day necessarily, or it's not an object, the tree that you would come into physical contact with so often. The tree in Łódź is a tree in the middle of the city and the community is the whole city, one of the biggest cities in Poland, by the way, and quite a breathtaking one, especially if you know its history. And it's a city that has been through ups and downs. At some point, it would have industries compared to which some of the most memorable industrial revolution cities in the UK, would be considered local towns. Doug Still: [12:32] And it was, in fact, on the property of a factory. Adam Golub: [12:37] Exactly. This magnificent little bit of nature is part of this vibrant industrial, post-industrial mosaic that stretches for me this imagination on behalf of our Polish colleagues, what the European tree can also be about in terms of the relationship of the community and nature, by placing it outright in the most urban context you can imagine. And I think it's beautiful because you can see that even there, it still fits, and even there the story is still strong. And even there, it still makes the point. Doug Still: [13:16] Why do you think this tree has special meaning to the people of Poland? Adam Golub: [13:20] I think that this tree has a special meaning to the people of Łódź. That is an important part of it. It is understandable. As I said, it's a tree that is a symbol of a city with a rich history, one that has gone through ups and downs. It connects to a strong sense of identity. Doug Still: [13:44] So, the Fabrykant Oak symbolizes a rich urban history, one with many ups and downs. After my chat with Adam though, I of course wondered, what is the history of Łódź and what's the tree's story? When I started to do some research, I discovered something curious. Websites and articles about the new European Tree of the Year were very celebratory, but specifics about its actual history were not to be found. Whose tree was this? What was the factory next door? What took place here? Searching more, I did find that the tree is essentially sandwiched between two historic villas built around the turn of the 20th century and that still stand today as part of the park. They were owned by the Richter brothers, Joseph and Reinhold. They were factory owners and their grandparents came from Česká Lípa in the northern part of the Czech Republic, near the border with Germany, essentially Bohemia. The family built and managed several factories in Łódź, including the one near the tree, which was part of their garden. Beyond that, very little information was to be found about who Joseph and Reinhold were. I thought I'd ask Przemek Bartos, the person who originally submitted the tree as a candidate for Poland Tree of the Year. I also just wanted to meet him and find out what inspired him to do so. Major respect is due for his bravery to be interviewed in English, although it was tough to include our whole conversation. Przemek, welcome to the show. Przemek Bartos: [15:13] Welcome. Doug Still: [15:15] I'm so glad you could join me today to talk about Oak Fabrykant. Przemek Bartos: [15:19] First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting me to this conversation. So, it's a great honor for me, but it's also a little stressful situation because all my activities in Poland, I create in Polish language and my English language is still developing, but I try to be better. Doug Still: [15:49] Well, you're doing just fine. It sounds great. And sorry, I don't know Polish. Przemek Bartos: [15:53] It's no problem. [laughs] Doug Still: [15:56] Could you introduce yourself and what you do? Przemek Bartos: [16:00] Yes, of course. I am author and creator of a fan page and blog, Przyroda dla Sosnowca. In English, “Nature for Sosnowiec.” Sosnowiec is a place in Poland in the south. Doug Still: [16:14] In case you didn't catch that, Przemek is from a city south of Łódź called Sosnowiec and his fan page is called “Nature for Sosnowiec.” I'll include a link in the show notes. It translates to English. Yes. You submitted the tree. Przemek Bartos: [16:30] Yes, yes, of course. Doug Still: [16:31] In fact, this was the fourth tree he has submitted for the Poland Tree of the Year Contest and he is becoming a self-made expert on the country's historic trees. Przemek Bartos: [16:42] I am also an ecological educator and during bird counting, I am a guide. Doug Still: [16:51] Oh, you lead bird-counting tours? Przemek Bartos: [16:54] Yes, yes. Doug Still: [16:55] And do you also lead tours in Łódź? Przemek Bartos: [16:59] No, no. The Łódź is in central of Poland but I sometimes go there. In my opinion, nature has no borders. And I live in Sosnowiec and I go to Łódź and submit, for example, trees of this town. Doug Still: [17:22] I asked him what appealed to him about the Fabrykant Oak. Przemek Bartos: [17:27] For me, the Fabrykant Oak is an extraordinary tree and sometimes I think that is a multidimensional symbol. But for some, it will be an inspiration to take a beautiful photo. For others, it will be a symbol of urban transformation. But for me, when I first time saw the tree, it was a spring photo. Surrounding this tree was about a huge numerous of blue flowers. In Polish, Skrzyńskie and [unintelligible [18:06]. It's a small flower. I am a gardener and ecologist, so I decided to go there. Fabrykant Oak is a central tree of park of Łódź. The name of this park is Park Klepacza. Now, this place is Politechnika Łódźka, University of Technology in Łódź area. Doug Still: [18:37] Then, I asked him about the Richter Brothers. Now it's between two historic villas. Are you familiar with those? Przemek Bartos: [18:45] When I was looking for a lot of information about this tree, I'm looking for information about Richter Family. And the Richter Family is industrial people who built two villas in Łódź. Doug Still: [19:07] Now, you wrote a blog about this tree, right? Przemek Bartos: [19:10] When I first time saw Fabrykant Oak, I decided to describe this story. In my opinion, a lot of trees is multidimensional, is important to our area and I think that people should protect them. My blog is the platform where I create story about trees, animals, mammals. Doug Still: [19:40] When you wrote that article, did you look into the Richter Brothers at all? Any other information? I find very little information online about them. Przemek Bartos: [19:49] Yes, because the same situation is in detail with family in Poland. A lot of information about this and their family are destroyed. It is a puzzle. Doug Still: [20:02] I see, a lot of information was destroyed in the war. Przemek Bartos: [20:05] Yes, yes, yes of course. Doug Still: [20:07] Przemek's love for the tree, I would say is largely aesthetic and ecological, the beauty of nature in the city. That totally makes sense to me. But it looked like any stories connected with the Richter Brothers had been lost. He submitted his nomination for the tree to Klub Gaja, the nonprofit organization that spearheads the Polish Tree of the Year contest. Coming up after the break, I speak to Klub Gaja's director, Jacek Boźek, where we take a deeper look into the tree's connection to the past more generally. It involves the industrial revolution and the yoke's survival through Łódź’s difficult past. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: [21:10] Jacek, welcome to the show. Jacek Boźek: Oh, to the show, sounds very good. Okay. I am very happy that I can be in show. Doug Still: [21:20] Welcome, welcome. Could you introduce yourself and your organization and what you do? Jacek Boźek: [21:25] Oh, it's a long story. I suppose now, I am leader of my organization because I established Klub Gaja. The Polish name is Klub Gaja. We can say Gaia Club in English. I established this organization 36 years ago. Doug Still: [21:49] Wow. Jacek Boźek: [21:50] And it was a completely different situation because it was in communist time, and I established this organization in underground. And for us, for me and for my friends who cooperated with me, the most important thing was animals, trees, rivers, things like that. Doug Still: [22:15] Environmental issues. Jacek Boźek: [22:16] Yes, environmental and animal rights. We still work on the same level and we lead some programs, some campaigns on the environmental platform or animal rights platform. Doug Still: [22:37] And where are you based? Jacek Boźek: [22:40] Wow. [laughs] Maybe somebody will know. This is south part of Poland, very close to the border with Czech and Slovakia border, Beskid mountains, very close to Bielsko-Biała, very small village, Wilkowice. Doug Still: [23:02] Gotcha. And is Klub Gaia involved in the arts at all or is it mainly environmental? Jacek [23:10] Oh, this may be very important for ourselves, for people who worked in Gaia Club that when I was young, I was an actor of the pantomime theater and my partner is a painter and we still use theater, we still use the art for our activity. If we want to tell people about climate changes, about animal rights, different things, the art is very good platform for that and we still use art for our activity. Doug Still: [23:54] Great way to bring it alive for people, help them understand it. Jacek Boźek: [23:58] Yes. Yes. And especially if you work, and we work with the young people, we work with the schools, even with the kindergartens. And this is very useful and very easy way to involve people to social activity, because you have to show people that environment is very important. Many things are very important. They connect to each other. Doug Still: [24:32] Yes. And how did you come to the European Tree of the Year Contest? Or perhaps first it was the Poland Tree of the Year Contest? Jacek Boźek: [24:42] Have to be like that. This is a good question, because every country who are part of consent of European Tree of the Year, they meet the same competition. Maybe not the same, but the competition for the Tree of the Year on their countries. And Klub Gaja lead the competition of the Tree of the Year in Poland. Doug Still: [25:15] So, you must have been thrilled that you won. Jacek Boźek: [25:18] Wow, this is very good information. I tell people that this is not only our work, because the most important for myself, even personally, is involve people to social work. And if we make the competition in Poland, I told stories around the trees. The trees are very important for the local people. Have to be like history, culture, music, stories. Doug Still: [26:04] Absolutely. Jacek Boźek: [26:05] This is most important. I say we try to build a social movement around the trees, because for me, it's not very important that the tree is very big, very old. No. The trees need the stories, the trees need connection with people. Of course, because for more than 20 years, we have the program in Polish language called Święto Drzewa. It's not easy to translate to English, but we call Tree Day. We have in Poland more than 21 years now, and we involve the whole Poland, many local authorities, big cities, small villages, and people plant the trees, make the gardens, many different activities. And one part of our work on this program is the competition about the trees. Doug Still: [27:22] It's sort of like our Arbor Day in late April. Jacek Boźek: [27:25] Yes, yes. Doug Still: [27:27] What's special about this tree? The Oak Fabrykant that caught your attention? What's the story behind it? Jacek Boźek: [27:35] Wow, this is the really, really important tree. This is not really important tree only for Łódź. Łódź is one of the biggest Polish towns. This is a really big city. And Oak Fabrykant is a part of the whole story because this is the part of the history of the Łódź. And the most important thing for that connects with economic history of the Łódź. Łódź was a very important city for producing wool, producing things like that. Doug Still: [28:27] In the Industrial Revolution? Jacek Boźek: [28:29] Oh, yes, yes. And now this park is part of the Polytechnika of Łódź, and for many, many people it is an important tree, because one of the branch shapes is 20 meters long. If you walk to the park, you have to even look for your head. This is a really, really big branch. Doug Still: [29:03] It's between two villas. Joseph and Reinhold Richter. Jacek Boźek: [29:07] Yes, this is true, because Łódź, like you said is true, was one of the very important parts of revolution. And most of the factories was built by Germans, Russians, Jewish people, Polish people, it was very, very important place like many different interests. And the story of the tree is very connected to the story of the business people from that period of the history. Doug Still: [29:51] A short aside here. In the 19th century, Łódź was a major manufacturing center and one of the most densely populated cities in Europe. Due to its rivers and supply of water, it was an ideal location for wool and cotton mills that manufactured textiles distributed around the world, but mainly for Russia. Most workers came from rural areas to experience city life for the first time. The importance of Łódź as an industrial center is described in this newspaper article from Manchester, Britain's Manufacturing Powerhouse, published on December 30, 1895: “The most rapidly progressive industrial center in the Russian Empire, writes the daily news Odesa Correspondent is Łódź in the government of [unintelligible [30:37] in Poland, commonly and deservedly known as the Russian Manchester. 30 years ago, Łódź was little more than an overgrown village, whilst it now has a population of over 300,000 souls. In the town of Łódź, 118 factories annually produce woolen goods to the value of 28 million rubles, whilst the various products of 56 cotton mills are valued at 45 million rubles. The majority of the large manufacturers and manufacturing companies are foreigners. The old and important trade of Moscow is every year declining before the strong and successful competition of Łódź.” [31:22] Is the factory that they owned right next door or nearby? Jacek Boźek: [31:27] Yes, this is true, because most of the owners of the factories in Łódź, they built their villas very close to the factories, because all Łódź was established from nothing. It was like meadows. Doug Still: [31:50] Yeah. It was just a tiny hamlet before the industrial revolution, I understand. Jacek Boźek: [31:55] Yes, yes, but they need a lot of water to the production of wool and other things. And the Łódź was a very good place because there were plenty of streams, small rivers. And they decided, “Okay, we want to build a completely new city on this place. We want to make money," [laughs] money of course. It was the culture story like people who live on the villages in our era, they build a house very close to their fields. And many years ago, I suppose, people have the connection, heart connection, with their business. This is not like today that business is international, that you're able to make business from village in the big city like New York. Yeah. Doug Still: [32:50] Right. So, that's how the tree got its name. Jacek Boźek: [32:54] Fabrykant means, in Polish language, the businessperson, owner of the place, the businessperson who owned the big factory, fabrykant. Doug Still: If the factory owners came to Łódź to get rich, you can bet they built their fortunes on the backs of poor workers. Nowhere is this better captured than a novel published in 1899 called The Promised Land. It was written by Polish author and Nobel laureate Władysław Reymont, and it was considered one of his most important works. It was made into a famous movie in 1975 of the same name, and everyone in Poland knows it. It tells the story of three close friends as ruthless budding industrialists, a Pole, a German, and a Jew, who are struggling to find the capital to build their own factory. As portrayed by Reymont in vivid detail, it is a dark, heartless world. There is only one English translation of the novel, published in 1927. Remarkably, I was able to find it. Chin up. Here's how it starts: [music] The Promised Land reading (Maria McCauley): [34:09] “Łódź was awakening. One first shrill blast, rending the silence of the small hours, and followed by the ululations of sirens all over the town, noisier and still more noisy, tearing and ripping the air to tatters with their harsh uncouth din. With long dark bodies and slender, upstanding necks, looming out of the night, the fog and the rain, the big factories were slowly rousing up, scintillating with many aflame and beginning to live and move amid the darkness. A thin March rain, not without sleet, was falling, falling covering Łódź with thick viscid mistiness pattering upon the iron-plate roofs, pouring thence down to the pavements and the black, miry, sloughy streets, streaming down the bare tree-trunks, marshalled in low rows close to the walls and shivering in the cold and tossed about by the wind. The wind that now swept the thoroughfares, buried in ooze, now rattled and shook the fences and now tried the roofs, or again would swoop into the quagmire or howl through the branches of a tree. Borowiecki, awakening struck a light just as the alarm clock set up, a furious wearing and ringing announcing 05:00 a.m.” Doug Still: [35:40] What would have been like for the workers in the factory? What was life like? There's a book called The Promised Land. That's a famous book in Poland, right? Jacek Boźek: [35:51] Ah, Ziemia obiecana, The Promised Land. Ziemia obiecana, yeah, it was the book and beautiful, beautiful movie. Very important for us. This is the long story, because in that time, Łódź was part of Russia, it was completely different story. The Poland not existing. A very important thing, it was that different people from different nations, like Polish people, Germans, Russians, and a lot of Jewish people, they cooperate together because they want to be rich, famous. Of course, at that time, for workers, it was something-- I don't know which way I will be able to explain, because most of the people who worked in these factories, it was people from villages, very, very poor people, and they have to change their life, their culture, everything, because they move from the very simple life in villages, very poor villages, we have to know, very poor villages. Doug Still: [37:28] Farms. Jacek Boźek: [37:29] Yes, maybe even not farms, because people haven't land. They work for farmers, they work for farm owners, and they change their life. It was a very, very special culture time for this city. Doug Still: [37:50] And there was the promise of a better life, to work in a factory and earn some money. Jacek Boźek: [37:56] I suppose for those people who were very poor, it was possibility for change, maybe not their life, but life of their children, because they started completely new life for them. Doug Still: [38:21] This story hit home for me recently. I do some of my research and writing at a coworking space for writers called LitArts Rhode Island, a wonderful place for creators that even has a recording studio. It's not far from where I live in Providence. Like Łódź, Providence's population exploded during the Industrial Revolution, also with the textile trade as its major industry. Workers moved here from the farms, and there were large numbers of Irish and Italian immigrants. Mainly women performed the labor in the textile mills. LitArts is located in the old mill district in the Valley neighborhood, the factories now converted to condos, offices, and arts-oriented spaces. I decided to walk home after working on this piece. I crossed the Woonasquatucket River, essential to the functioning of the mills. It became heavily polluted during that period, and in fact, one section of it downtown was completely covered over, running underground until it reached the top of Narragansett Bay. The river has since been cleaned up, and the river daylighted, spearheading the revival of our city. Anyway, I crossed the river and walked past the old mills, imagining horse drawn carts and old trucks and groups of people and bosses shouting orders. Then, I walked up a steep street into a working-class neighborhood of triple decker homes. I thought of the scores of people making that exact same walk a hundred years ago after a long, grueling day of work, returning to a large family. Then, my brain turned elsewhere, to my third great grandmother. Her name was Clarinda Pixley, whose story I researched about 10 years ago. She was one of the famous mill girls of Lowell, Massachusetts. Dirt poor, she came from a farm in New Hampshire to work the cotton mills in Lowell. There she met my third great grandfather, Benjamin Still, who came down from Southern Quebec for the same reason. They quickly got married and escaped back to New Hampshire. In other words, I thought of people everywhere hitching their wagon to modern industry on the promise of a better life, only to experience a different, equally intense struggle. The story of Łódź is not unusual. It's universal. [music] [40:49] I wish, I wish I could pivot back to the tree in the exciting things happening now in Łódź, but not quite yet. First, a moment to acknowledge the absolute darkest period for Łódź and for Poland after the German invasion of September 1939, the horrific events that unfolded are difficult to comprehend. Under Nazi control, Polish and Jewish establishments were closed, Polish language newspapers banned, and forced labor imposed on its inhabitants. Polish intellectuals were imprisoned or killed, and Polish children were separated from their parents. Worst of all, the Łódź Ghetto was established in 1940, populated over time with more than 200,000 Jewish people from the city and from the region. People either died within its walls or sent to extermination camps. Only 877 remained to be found when the Soviets arrived in August of 1944. While there were 230,000 Jewish residents of Łódź prior to the war, only about 10,000 survived the Holocaust elsewhere. For all of those people, they must be remembered. We're taking a break. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music] Doug Still: [42:31] After that, I think all will forgive me for skipping right to the last 10 or 12 years in Łódź, as the city is undergoing exciting changes. With new businesses, students, and arts organizations, it's a different, forward-thinking time. Trees and environmentalism underpin the city's new sense of itself. A key part of the future, says Jacek. Jacek Boźek: [42:54] This is very, very good because Łódź is one of the big cities in Poland which have plenty of forests around Łódź, a lot of beautiful forest, and this is very important. And Łódź wants to change their image for green city. Doug Still: [43:22] To find out more, I was lucky enough to speak with the city's director of environmental management, Anna Wierzbicka. Impressively, she and her division are taking on big projects. Could you introduce yourself and what you do for the city of Łódź? Anna Wierzbicka: [43:37] Yes, my name is Anna Wierzbicka, and I lead a department which is responsible for the climate and environment issues in the city hall of the city of Łódź. Doug Still: [43:49] So, you must be very proud of this tree for winning. What does the tree mean to the city? Anna Wierzbicka: [43:55] This is the 180-year-old oak, which is called Fabrykant, and it is one of the most original trees in Poland and the city's showcase. Doug Still: [44:09] It's been mentioned that Łódź is embracing environmentalism, and obviously you're very involved in that. Could you describe what you've been doing and what you hope the city could be? Anna Wierzbicka: [44:18] For me, we are saying in Łódź that Łódź is the last undiscovered city because it is a unique city in the entire Polish map, because I think that it's the only city that does not have a market. We are having the pedestrian street, which is the main street. So, if you go to Kraków or if you go to Poznań, you have a main market. In Łódź you have a main street called Piotrkowska street, which is connected with historical times because in the 19th century, Łódź was created as a kind of an economic zone, so every building was built along this street. And we were the second fastest growing city in the world after Chicago because of the fast development of the textile industry. Doug Still: [45:12] I see. And a lot of the factories were built along that street. Anna Wierzbicka: [45:16] Yes, yes. And it was like an industrial street. There is also a famous film called Promised Land, and it explains the textile and factory history of Łódź and there is a famous saying from this movie. It states, “You have nothing, I have nothing, and he has nothing. So together, we have enough to build a factory.” And this is the saying that for me is also very up to date nowadays. Because we are also involving in our city, for example, I deal with environmental issues and we do also involve business to cooperate with us in favor of nature, for example, we are doing some un-concreting actions together with business companies who nowadays they know more, they feel the essence of climate change, and they want to also involve. And this is also somehow historically dedicated, because everyone, if they started a business here, they're really connected to the city. So, this is like a natural historical for me, bond led from, I don't know, grandmother, grandfather and grand grandmother. So, it's also very unique. There's also a saying that in Łódź, everybody knows everybody. Doug Still: [46:55] Right. So, there's deep heaving work going on, removing the concrete and then planting trees. Anna Wierzbicka: [47:03] Yes, yes. We are doing lots of issues connected with climate change. We are un-concreting to put some flowers, to put some trees, and especially to focus on the retention issues, because Łódź is located on the water threat. So, we are the city that is in future in the threat of- Doug Still: [47:28] Flooding? Anna Wierzbicka: [47:29] Drought. Doug Still: [47:30] Oh, drought. Anna Wierzbicka: [47:31] Drought. We have flooding, but when there is a heavy rain, but mainly the land is very dry. So, we do everything to un-concrete, to keep the water in the surface. We are also doing some workshops for beekeepers, and also inhabitants can take part in these workshops. This is top workshop in our city. We are also doing some social campaigns for air quality. We are doing some donations for the citizens, so they can plant some trees or some other greenery, or they can also install some devices for retention, or some solutions for further retention. And finally, I think that the last project that is, I think, very worth mentioning, we call it Lamos. Lamos is a river. Because to explain you something more about Łódź. Łódź in Polish it means “boat,” exactly. This is the exact translation, the meaning of the name. But nowadays we do not have any river in Łódź, because all the rivers were put in the sewage system in historical times. So, nowadays, all the rivers that are small rivers, around 20 small rivers, they are going in the sewage system or underneath, but there are a few of them that can be taken out. So, we created a concept for one of such rivers. This is Lamos River. And we will put it out so that the water and the river can be visible. We will also-- I don't know if it can be said in English. We will meander it, means we will not make it straight. So, we will meander it, and it will be given back to people. We were also given in a special donation directly from the European Parliament. This is the only Polish project directly in the budget of the European parliament, because they saw such an incredible value of this project. Like, on one hand, the ecological one, and on the other hand, we are also doing something what we call a model of managing the water in the city. So, next to this park, where we will put the river out, there is also a street where we will put a special system only to collect rainwater. And we've already involved almost all the stakeholders on this street to put their water from the roof water to this dedicated system, to put the water also to the Lamos River. Doug Still: [50:46] The daylighting of the river made me think again of my home city of Providence and how we're discovering similar solutions to a century and a half of environmental abuse. What's remarkable in Łódź is that business has come full circle and is now part of the solution. That sounds like a wonderful project to uncover the river. It will be a centerpiece for the city, I think. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:08] Yes. Doug Still: [51:08] I love that there will be a meander, and it's complicated because you're working with so many jurisdictions, and I love that the businesses are taking part in it. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:18] Yes, I think I will not lie if I say that our city has the biggest number of business partners for eco and environmental actions involved right now. Because my department was created three and a half years ago, and during the first year, nobody cared. When I spoke with the companies and they say, “Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe someday.” But then for the last two years, we've involved 60 companies or even more. Doug Still: [51:55] Wow, that's a credit to you, I bet. Anna Wierzbicka: [51:57] I hope so. [laughter] I will not stop. Doug Still: [52:01] So, they get it. Anna Wierzbicka: [52:03] They get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially, we also had such a small square because-- I mean we do not have a big square, but some smaller squares we do have and it was also one big concrete. I spoke with one company and I said, “Oh, maybe you will be involved, so we will do something to un-concrete it.” And then the other company said, “I also want to be involved in it.” And that's how I collected six companies for this square. So, I hope that in the coming years or maybe months, it will be passé not to be involved in such actions. Doug Still: [52:48] That's right. They don't want to be left behind. Anna Wierzbicka: [52:50] Yeah, the train is already on the move, so you have to get in or you will stay behind. Doug Still: [52:57] That's right. Taking into account all that you've said, what does the presence of this tree symbolize? Anna Wierzbicka: [53:03] Strength. For me, it symbolizes strength. It also symbolizes for our city that no matter what will happen, you can survive. Because if you see the tree and it still stands and it still blossoms and it's still so popular, it's for our city. For me personally, it means that you can survive everything. We were the country which was really badly treated in the historical times after world wars, and we were also the city which was in a very difficult times after the World Wars, because all the workers, they left, and the unemployment was so big, and all the cotton workers, which were mainly women, they were out of their jobs, they had nothing to do. And in historical times, when there were also different cities with some problems, but they went to protest to the capital for the government to help them and women from Łódź they stayed home. So, we are also sometimes saying that we are left on our own, but we still had the strength to get up and to move forward and to survive. So, for me, this tree on one hand is a symbol of strength and a long-lasting journey that can be finally a journey with a victory at the end. And it also symbolizes the strength of nature, which personally is important for me. Doug Still: [54:58] Circling back to Adam Golub, the coordinator of the European Tree of the Year contest, I asked him again about its purpose. Adam Golub: [55:05] At the end of the day, it is not our aim to have a competition between countries submitting their trees. That's why the word 'competition' itself, I don't really like to use it too much in relation to the tree. And actually, if I talk about it in Czech, I usually use the word 'anketa' rather than soutěž, which would be competition. So, for me it's more of a survey, if you know what I mean. And it's about learning about those stories. That's why we have all of them there on the website so that people can actually learn a little bit about the communities and the trees and the places where they are growing. And if people understand it as such, then we've done something right. Doug Still: [55:52] And then, I asked Przemek Bartos, the original submitter and tireless promoter of the Fabrykant Oak. Check out the video he made in addition to his blog. I asked him what the tree means to him. Przemek Bartos: [56:05] For me, it's, for example, a symbol of situation when we can show that nature knows no borders, of course, but in my opinion, nature is the best teacher. Doug Still: [56:24] And Jacek Boźek had some final thoughts to share. Jacek Boźek: [56:27] It's very important what trees do in your life. When I was very, very young, when I was a child, I was very sick child. And for many, many years even, I stayed in the bed, and I saw only one tree from my window. It was a very important time when you see the tree in springtime, summertime, and then wintertime. We have really wintertime in my region with a lot of snow. And sometimes, it was only my one friend for many, many years. It was something like personality. And I feel that every tree has personality. But if you see tree like Fabrykant, big, really big, wonderful tree, and you see the power of this tree and you feel that this is the part of the history. This is something, of course, tree cannot talk to you, tree cannot tell you stories. You are able to tell the stories. Your heart able to tell the stories. And this is the witness. This is witness of our life. This is witness of our activity. Sometimes, this is witness of our tragedy and this tree is still existing. This is incredible. Normally, it's not too easy to be a European championship. We have something special. We have the beautiful, wonderful Oak Fabrykant in our city, that the trees are part of our history and a part of our future. Doug Still: [58:49] There's a founding legend of Poland. Once upon a time, there were three brothers, Lech, Czech and Rus. Because of their wisdom, they led their families and they lived in harmony. But the time came when the land could no longer feed their people. There was no game in the forests and no fish in the river. So, they met and decided to seek new lands for their tribes. Rus found the area we now know as Russia, with vast plains and rivers, and Czech found fertile land to the south. But Lech went eastward. His tribe entered dense forests full of animals and rivers that abounded with fish. Suddenly, Lech heard some noise and a huge shadow moved over the clearing. Curious people raised their heads. They saw an eagle slowly descending on a nest located in the crown of a large oak tree. In the early evening, the bird's silhouette stood out in sharp white against the red sky. "It's a sign from the gods," people shouted in unison. "It's a good omen," said Lech, smiling. "We'll settle down here and this wonderful bird will protect us." A thousand years ago, this became the coat of arms for Poland. A white eagle on a red background. And don't forget that oak tree. Through hardship, the tribe saw a sign of a better future. Every pole knows this story. Without the need for long historical explanations on websites and promotional material, I think the people of Łódź and Poland know intuitively how the Fabrykant Oak fits into their story. Its long arm has reached out to remind them to tell it to the rest of us. [Chopin piano music] [01:00:42] I'd like to thank my inspiring guests, Adam Golub, Przemek Bartos, Jacek Boźek, and Anna Wierzbicka for coming on the show. I hope I didn't completely fail in pronouncing words from your language. Please find information about them and links to their organizations in the show notes, and visit Facebook and Instagram to see some great photos of the tree that they've shared. Thanks to Maria McCauley for her reading of The Promised Land and for sharing her research into the history of Poland. David Still II was the consulting editor and D. Lee, sings theme music. The piano music you've been listening to is, of course, by the great Polish composer, Chopin. The last piece is performed by Arthur Rubenstein, born in Łódź to a Jewish family in 1887. His father was the owner of a small factory. I'm Doug Still. Join me next time for This Old Tree. [Chopin piano music fade] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Emancipation Oak (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 2 November 23, 2023 Doug Still: [00:02] On this show, a tree is never just a tree. Our story today is a good case in point about a 250-year-old live oak on the campus of Hampton University in Virginia. Stately, strong, and gorgeous, it's also a symbol of a watershed moment in American history, the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War. President Lincoln's pivotal document declared that, "That all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free." How could a tree play a role in that momentous event, at least locally? What did emancipation truly mean to African-Americans in 1863? How does the tree still inspire the hearts and imaginations of people today? Joining me to explore this are garden historian and storyteller, Abra Lee, Hampton University Professor Robert Watson, and Virginia Beach Arborist Tim Nuckols. This is the story of the Emancipation Oak. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:34] First off, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional inhabitants of the peninsula where the Emancipation Oak stands. Since the early 1600s, the Tidewater region has been populated by the Powhatan peoples who call the lands Tsenacommacah. Prior to the arrival of English colonists, the Powhatan Chieftain was made up of over 30 tribes numbering an estimated 25,000 people. I come with respect for the land where our story takes place and for the indigenous people who have and do reside there. What strikes me about the Emancipation Oak tree is how passionate people are who know about it, as you'll soon find out. When visiting it, they describe a feeling or aura around it, like that experienced near other famous objects or landmarks. Think the Mona Lisa or Washington Monument. In addition to the larger story, part of the reason is that this tree is closely linked with the work of an inspirational educator to the formerly enslaved, a free black woman named Mary Peake. Here to dig into this is my guest, Abra Lee. Abra is a garden historian, storyteller, and former city parks arborist based in Georgia. She's currently the Director of Horticulture at Historic Oakland Cemetery in Atlanta. Her degree in Ornamental Horticulture is from Auburn University, and she's also an alumna of the prestigious Longwood Gardens Fellows Program. A freelance horticultural writer and lecturer, her work has appeared in the New York Times, Fine Gardening, Veranda magazine, and NPR. Her first book, Conquer the Soil: Black America and the Untold Stories of Our Country's Gardeners, Farmers, and Growers is due out in 2025. [03:20] Hello, Abra. Welcome back to This Old Tree. Abra Lee: [03:23] Thank you, Doug. I appreciate you having me again. Doug Still: [03:26] Listeners may remember you from our “Tree of Hope” episode a while back. And I have to say you have to be one of the most popular guests we've had on the show. Abra Lee: [03:36] Oh, my gosh, I'm tickled to hear that. That's so cool. Thank you. Doug Still: [03:41] You suggested the Emancipation Oak as a tree to feature, and it's been fascinating learning about it, and the background for this story. Have you been speaking about it for a while? Abra Lee: [03:52] I have. I have known about the Emancipation Oak. I don't even remember when I first learned about it. My mom is or was, she's passed away now, but she is a retired history teacher and attended historically black colleges and universities. And that was my first knowledge of the Emancipation Oak at Hampton University. Learning about it, hearing about it as a child through her, and also having relatives and friends that attended Hampton University in Virginia. Doug Still: [04:24] Yes. I was going to say the Emancipation Oak is a live oak on the campus of Hampton University, which is a prestigious historically black college in Hampton, Virginia. You got a chance to go there recently. Was that the first time that you've ever seen the tree? Abra Lee: [04:42] The first time I saw the tree was when I was 18 years old on college visits. That was the first time I actually saw it in real life. This was the second time. But back then, I didn't understand. I didn't know I was on a road to horror culture or vore culture or any of those things. So, it did not have the meaning. Certainly, I didn't have the understanding of it that I have today. I was able to see the tree recently when I was on a trip to Norfolk, Virginia to speak at the Norfolk Botanic Garden at their Heritage Day celebration, which may be interesting to your audience because in the late 1930s, there were 220 African-American men and women, 200 black women, 20 black men, that did the groundwork and laid the groundwork for what is now the Norfolk Botanic Garden. So every year, they have a Heritage Day celebration and a beautiful statue, a huge, tall, maybe 20-foot statue of a black woman with a shovel wearing her WPA skirt and shirt, and it's called Breaking Ground. So this area is incredibly rich outside of the Emancipation Oak with black garden history in America. It's stunning. Doug Still: [05:54] That sounds fantastic. I'd love to visit. That was a WPA project? Abra Lee: [05:59] That was a WPA project. And so, this is certainly a public garden that is credited with being started by black people, which is really, really incredible. Doug Still: [06:10] I love that. I love that. Could you describe for our listeners the Emancipation Oak in your own words after seeing it recently? Abra Lee: [06:19] Sure. It is as you stated earlier, Doug, it's a live oak. It really branches out and has these long outstretching, dare I say, tentacles that touch the ground. And it is surprising at-- you look just in the background of it and there's the highway behind it, like the bridge going over the road. It is also a tree that in many ways can be blank, you missed it. You turn onto the campus of Hampton university, and the tree is to your left or at least it was to my left, the way that I came in. But honestly, anyone entering the campus from that way, it would be on your left and it is set back. So, there is a grass strip and a parking lot and then another grass strip surrounding the tree. So, you may not even notice that it's there. It's so surprising. I really don't know if I feel like that's a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe it's a great thing because it keeps it. Doug Still: [07:21] People leave it alone. Abra Lee: [07:23] Right. Exactly. Certainly, and let me be very clear, the students of Hampton University, the community there, the professors, the administration, they know what it is. It is incredibly important to that community. It is just this incredible, important monument. Doug Still: [07:39] Is there a fence around it? Abra Lee: [07:40] There is a fence around it. There's a big metal fence around it. So the tree is protected. You can't just walk up to the trunk of the tree, but you could reach your arm out and touch a leaf of the tree. There were acorns forming on the tree because I was there in September of this year, and there is signage around the tree that discusses a very-- it discusses, I think, very beautifully and very briefly a complex story surrounding the tree and its rich history. When I approached the tree, I felt like, "Wow, this is the Emancipation Oak." I can feel it. I felt the only time I ever maybe or I don't want to say the only time, Doug, but a similar time I felt that way was on the campus of Tuskegee University, another historically black college university HBCU in Tuskegee, Alabama, where you're walking up just casually right there next to the sidewalk is Booker T. Washington's grave and George Washington Carver's grave. And honestly, you can't believe it. It gives you chills. So this tree, knowing its history, knowing its legacy, I felt that type of excitement and just felt taken aback by it. Doug Still: [08:49] Could you describe where it is? Where's Hampton, Virginia? Abra Lee: [08:52] Hampton, Virginia is in the Tidewater area of the state of Virginia. So it's on the coast of Virginia, and it's on this rich peninsula of water where enslaved African-Americans or enslaved Africans are entering the Americas. Very early on. We're talking 1600s. So, Virginia, in terms of its connection to black garden history, to black tree history is very significant because of its positioning, and it being one of the first colonies in the United States. So, there has been a long history and a black community that has been there for centuries that has thrived and absolutely contributed to the stories and histories of American horticulture. Doug Still: [09:43] Virginia was a slave owning state that sided with the Confederates during the Civil War. Early on, however, Hampton and the adjacent Fort Monroe, located at the end of this peninsula at the mouth of Chesapeake Bay, came into the hands of the Union Army. The location became a destination for escaped formerly enslaved people who sought safety and had nowhere else to go. In fact, it was the first self-contained community of African-Americans in the United States. Here to explain its importance is Robert Watson, Professor of History in the Department of Political Science, History, and International Studies at Hampton University. He's had a distinguished career in teaching, nearly 50 years as a matter of fact, 27 of them at Hampton, with stints as a Museum Director and also Director of African-American Interpretation at Colonial Williamsburg. [10:37] Well, Professor Watson, welcome to the show. Robert Watson: [10:40] Thank you. Glad to be here. Doug Still: [10:41] So nice to have you here. I'd like to dig into Hampton, Virginia and the history of the site, and I'd like to ask you about the site prior to the Civil War. What was Fort Monroe and what was the Grand Contraband Camp? Robert Watson: [10:58] Okay, thank you for a great question. Fort Monroe was actually built where the construction started around 1819, but it's actually located on what was formerly a place called Point Comfort, which is like a little community, a peninsula rather. And so prior to Fort Monroe, it would have been an area that would have been inhabited by indigenous people with the Chesapeake Bay right in the background, so to speak. Doug Still: [11:33] So leading up to the Civil War, who lived there? Robert Watson: [11:39] Mainly leading up to the Civil War, this area, what we are talking about, would have been African Americans would have been here. There would have been a merchant class of white Virginians, as well as other Virginians who would have lived in this area and would have made their living primarily from the sea. Doug Still: [12:01] What was the Grand Contraband Camp? Robert Watson: [12:03] The Grand Contraband Camp was an area of Hampton where after the Emancipation Proclamation and even before, to be very frank, were housing. But not just housing, but where people live. Refugees, so to speak, would make that their home here. Not only in downtown Hampton, but also at Fort Monroe. It's one of the largest contraband camps in the south. There are other ones like New Bren, North Carolina had these huge camps where runaway slaves would feel comfortable or at least would feel safer because– Doug Still: [12:54] They were protected there. Robert Watson: [12:56] They were protected. And the interesting thing about that, Doug, is that that's where we really get the first understanding of what contraband meant, because normally contraband means an article seized in war. And in this case, you have black people who refuse to go south, because they would have been used to build a fortification for the Confederates. So, they decided to go those places where at least there was some protection that was provided by the United States Union Army. Doug Still: [13:36] It sounds like a demeaning term, but in fact, at the time, it was a way for the north or the Union Army to say, "We're not required to send these people back to you," to the south, or to their owners." And so, in that way, technically, it was some modicum of freedom? Robert Watson: [13:59] Yes. That’s exactly right. Because there was no certain federal policy about what to do with the fugitives who were running away, this was, in fact, a stopgap measure. But at the same time, by protecting them, it made many people in the north or some people in the north think that they were no longer just straddling the fence over the issue of slavery. It appears that by having a contraband camp or providing a modicum of protection convinced many black people and many of the abolitionists in the north that this was a good thing. It was not certain, but it was better than the previous condition of servitude. Doug Still: [14:53] Even before the war, African Americans in Hampton, not only desired peace and safety, but also in education. We're going to take a short break, but when we return, we'll find out about one woman who risked her life in order to teach them. Mary Peake. You're listening to This Old Tree. [song] Abra Lee: [15:36] In this location before the Civil War, specifically at the Emancipation Oak where this tree is, this is where a woman who your audience will have to get to know her name and her story. Mary Peake enters the picture. This is a black woman whose mother. She is a free black woman, Mary Peake is. Her father is an Englishman, her mother is an enslaved black woman, and she is going against the law. She is risking it all to teach what is called "contraband." Meaning, enslaved black people how to read, how to write. She is teaching them. She establishes a school in a protected way. And Mary Peake is a brilliant woman. She is known to be highly educated. She is taking a risk herself to teach these escaped enslaved people how to read, how to write, how to be educated in the United States. And so, under this treat, between May of 1861 and August of 1861, we don't know the exact date, but we can narrow it down to those few months between May and August of 1861, the first class of Mary Peake is taught under this tree. And also, it should be noted that this is credited in historical documents that I have read as being the first public school for black people. So, we have to credit the Tidewater area of Virginia and Hampton and its campus for that as well, because that's incredibly significant. Doug Still: [17:14] Right. It's considered the historic start of Hampton University, isn't it? Abra Lee: [17:18] It is. And the tree in Hampton, we cannot understate or underscore how hallowed ground it is to American education, to black communities, and to American tree history. Period. She is born a free black woman, so she could just go on mind her business, Doug. Say, you're on your own, y'all. I know how to read and write. But hey, rest of you figure it out on your own. But she doesn't do that. She chooses to risk it all. I think that that's very important, and I think that something has to be bold that she could have just accepted her position as a mulatto. Meaning, at that time, a biracial black woman with a white Englishman father, with a black mother, who could have lived a very--I can't say comfortable. That's why I'm stuttering on my words here. This is still a black woman in America in the 1860s. But she could have lived a relative life of privilege compared to other black people. She could have just done that and not look back. But she understands the privilege she holds with this knowledge, with this education, and that she has a moral obligation to pass this on to her people. So that is who Mary Peake is. And to do that, that means you're risking, not just your life, the life of the people you're teaching. At this time, education is illegal. Doug Still: [18:39] And it's the key to a better life, whatever that may be at the time. Abra Lee: [18:45] It is. I'm not sure if we have time to get in this today, but this story and discussing it with you and seeing that tree, it just really makes me think about in many ways, I would love to have a broader discussion about trees and the canopy of trees being these spaces. I don't know if I want to say coliseum or these umbrellas of teaching in America and throughout the world. Like, the connection to the trees and education is a real one, and it is a gathering place where people are learning. Doug Still: [19:13] Right. With canopy and protection and the ability to focus on what you're talking about, whether [crosstalk] lessons or discussion. Abra Lee: [19:22] Absolutely. I think it's also interesting. So, Mary Peake starts this cool 1861. She first teaches it under the tree. Then she moves it to her home, which ends up being burned in 1861. And then essentially or not essentially later, a school is built within relative proximity to this tree. Robert Watson: [19:47] Mary Peake is a very interesting lady. I wanted to share some of the information I had learned about Mary Peake. She was born in 1823 and she died in 1862. Her father was an Englishman. Her mother has been described as a light skinned, free black woman from Norfolk, Virginia. Mary Peake went to school in Alexandria, Virginia. And then she came back to Hampton, and she learned how to support herself by making clothes and teaching in Hampton. While she did not live a long time, her life, her experiences, her work speaks for itself because she was the first teacher, as we know, who instructed free blacks and others under the Emancipation Oak or at least somewhere near the Emancipation Oak. What is not true about her life is that we've often been told that she read the Emancipation Proclamation to the enslaved population on the 1st January 1863. Well, we know that's impossible because she died in November of 1862. Doug Still: [21:18] Right. Robert Watson: [21:19] That's one of the things with history. One of the things I try to teach my students is be factual. Give the correct information. You don't have to make up stories about slavery, in particular. Tell the truth, because the real stories are actually much more intense. And in many instances, the story for people who were enslaved is real. Mary Peake also received the support of a lot of white women in the north, and that wouldn't be the first time either, because people like Prudence Crandall, who you might be familiar with, was a white woman who operated a school, I believe in Philadelphia, Boston. But this was a common thing for white women who were fighting for their own rights to get involved with the abolitionist movement, as well as the women's movement and also the temperance movement. And so [audio cut] respected people like Mary Peake. Doug Still: [22:27] How might they have known each other? Robert Watson: [22:29] Because in those days, people wrote and they heard about things that other people were doing, certainly writing. This is something that Lockwood makes reference to is the strong communication between different regions of the country. Doug Still: [22:52] Let's talk about who Reverend Lockwood is. Robert Watson: [22:54] He is a missionary who was sent to Fortress Monroe. And it was there that he was able to meet some of the children who Mary Peake taught. So he is, for lack of another-- well, put it use of another term, I would describe Lockwood as being philanthropic, as well as being a missionary, and one who was definitely took abolitionism to a way of thinking that many of his contemporaries also did as well. Doug Still: [23:35] And he wrote this piece, I don't know what it was for, called Mary S. Peake: The Colored Teacher at Fortress Monroe. Robert Watson: [23:43] Yes. Doug Still: [23:44] In 1862- Robert Watson: [23:46] Yes. Doug Still: [23:47] -which is the source that we have for her life and the situation at the time. Robert Watson: [23:52] Right. Doug Still: [23:53] Here is a passage from Reverend Lockwood's book, in his own words, describing the establishment of the school in Hampton, Virginia with Mary Peake at the helm. Rev. Lewis Lockwood quote: [24:03] "The religious and educational part of the mission has been one of blessedness and promise. And in this, as in everything else, I have aimed to teach self-development. In connection with the gathering of the people in religious meetings, I proposed to commence Sabbath and week-day schools, with such teachers as I had at hand. Meanwhile, some of the children of the vicinity, getting perhaps some hint of my intention, or prompted by an impulse from on high, called on Mrs. Peake, and requested her to teach them, as she had taught the children in Hampton. It was with much gratification that I learned this request. I soon found from observation, as well as information, that we had in her a teacher of the choicest spirit, and of peculiar qualifications. She was happy in having pupils as ready to learn as to request instruction. Her school numbered at first only about half a dozen, but in a few days she had between fifty and sixty. These scholars were found to have generally very fair intellectual capabilities, and a few evinced quite rare talents. Among these was her own little daughter, five years old, named Hattie, but familiarly called by the pet name of Daisy. She learned to read simple lessons fluently in a very short time. Others also exhibited a precocity which from day to day rewarded and stimulated the ardor of this devoted teacher." Doug Still: [25:31] Why do you think teaching motivated Mary Peake? Robert Watson: [25:35] I think teaching motivated Mary Peake, because she understood that literacy and the ability to read was an important steppingstone for people who were certainly one day going to be free. But it's a belief that black people still believe in, and that is that literacy and education is the steppingstone to mobility, and that if you can read, your chances of having a better quality of life is greatly increased. And so, I believe that's why she was motivated to teach night school, night classes. And that kind of motivation took her down, so to speak, because Booker T. Washington, who was one of probably Hampton Institute best known alumnus thought that reading and writing was important. Doug Still: [26:42] Yeah, it was obviously something that she had and wanted to share. Robert Watson: [26:46] Absolutely. Doug Still: [26:47] And it opened doors for her. Robert Watson: [26:49] Yes, it did. And it still does. That's why our university here tried to prepare our students to be lifelong learners so they can use whatever they learn here in Hampton to make the broader community a better place for everybody. And so, that's coming from the legacy of Mary Peake. Doug Still: [27:18] You mentioned that there were other teachers, which is a good point. She wasn't the only one, right? Robert Watson: [27:25] Right. No, she wasn't. Doug Still: [27:26] I bet there must have been others. She is the one that we talk about the most, I think? Robert Watson: [27:32] Right. I think she's the one we talk about the most. But you're right. She certainly was not the only one. I was reading in the Lockwood book, the introduction, and it said, "By the end of the Civil War, there were more than 900 teachers in the south, and an estimated 200,000 free slave had received instructions in the rudiments of literacy." Doug Still: [28:01] Wow. Robert Watson: [28:02] That's a huge number. After the Civil War, particularly during Reconstruction, is when you see a great increase in the number of students who are attending some of the first HBCUs, the Historically Black Colleges and Universities long before the Moral Act, which added state institution for black students. You have this great increase in the number of people who are going to school, and they are going to schools that have a particular name like Hampton Agriculture and Normal Institute, which meant that these are people who are being trained to not only be good with their hands, but they also are teachers. They come to school, they get a degree, and they go back into their communities, and they use what they've learned to help prepare the next generation. Doug Still: [29:01] Now that number that you gave, is that post-Civil War or prior to the Civil War? Robert Watson: [29:06] That is post-Civil War. Doug Still: [29:08] Mm-hmm. Robert Watson: [29:09] Post-Civil War. Doug Still: [29:09] Now, previous to the Civil War, it was illegal to teach, wasn't it? Robert Watson: [29:13] That's correct. But you know what's interesting though is that, it was not illegal until shortly after 1831. Individual slave owners wanted their slaves, particularly during the colonial period, to be able to have some education, so they could carry out the orders of their masters. But these were small numbers and were done on an individual basis, as opposed to what happened in 1831, which was Nat Turner's rebellion. And after Nat Turner's rebellion, slave owners in the south decided that, "If a slave can read, they can use that interpretation of the scripture the way Nat Turner did to become the Moses of their people." So, teaching a slave or teaching an enslaved person how to read and write after 1831 became state policy. Doug Still: [30:20] And that was in all states? Robert Watson: [30:23] That was in all the states. I say, all the states in the south. Yeah. Doug Still: [30:28] So we're in the Civil War, it's 1863, and President Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation, I think, in January. Robert Watson: [30:38] Correct. Doug Still: [30:39] What was the Emancipation Proclamation? Robert Watson: [30:41] The Emancipation Proclamation was probably one of the most important documents, one of the most important acts, executive order in the history of the United States. Because every other order leading up to the Emancipation Proclamation supported slavery, at least in theory, in an action. If you go back just for a moment and look at the Declaration of Independence, it protected slavery, even though Jefferson and his Committee of Five intent were to bother slavery and the slave trade, but because slavery, the economic backbone of the country, it was supported by the colonies. And then you have the Constitution, which also supports slavery, particularly with those three articles in the Constitution, the Compromise, the Fugitive Slave Law, and the Continuation of the Slave Trade for 20 years. And then the Missouri Compromise, then the Fugitive Act of 1850, all of these support slavery. By 1860 though, Lincoln realized that and it's in his quote, "A house of virus against itself cannot stand." There were people who like Lincoln, who I will say was a scientific racist like his hero, Thomas Jefferson, believed that our country would not survive if we continued to support slavery. Lincoln was astute enough to look at other institutions of bondage around the world and see that even changes were taken there like in Russia, where Alexander II abolished serfdom, where he had seen on the horizon. Actually, he'd known that it had been abolished in the Constitutions of most Latin American countries. And here we are in this country, a country of some four million black folks, Lincoln certainly understood, "I believe that it was time to do something." Now he wasn't that enthused about doing it. Because remember, South Carolina leaves the Union in 1861. Lincoln felt that the war was only going to last about three months, and so he asked Congress to appropriate enough money to raise an army of 100,000 men. But during those three first two years, the north is not winning a single battle. And so Lincoln is being urged by some of his rivals who were part of the 1860 political season, they're urging him to do something. Frederick Douglas is saying, "If you don't do something to make this war a national issue, then it's very possible that the south might win this war." And so Lincoln decided with a lot of encouragement from Frederick Douglass and Henry Highland Garnet and Harriet Tubman and others that he had to do something. So he wrote this preliminary draft of the Emancipation Proclamation shortly after the Union wins a victory at Antina. Doug Still: [34:48] Was that July or August of 1962 somewhere that summer? Robert Watson: [34:53] No. September. Doug Still: [34:54] September. Robert Watson: [34:55] Right. He wrote it in September, and it sat on his desk until the 1st January, 1863. So, I would say maybe a short answer to the question is that, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as an act of military necessity and not as an act of humanitarian concern. Doug Still: [35:16] It also allowed black people to serve in the Union Army- Robert Watson: [35:21] That’s correct. Doug Still: [35:21] -which was another reason, I believe. Robert Watson: [35:24] That's a very good point. It did encourage black people to serve in the Union Army, and it also allowed us, as historians, to appreciate the fact that black people wanted to be agents in their own liberation, which is what Douglas said, "Give a black man a weapon, and he will defend himself." And therefore, Lincoln saw all of that. Reluctantly, he issued it, and it also became a rattling cry for people in the north who were somewhat straddling the fence whether they supported or were against slavery. Doug Still: [36:14] What were the limitations of the Emancipation Proclamation? Robert Watson: [36:17] It did not freeze slaves in all the states. It only frees the slaves in the states that rebelled and left the Union. And in some states, it only allowed slaves in some counties to continue to be enslaved. It also helped the fact that-- What helped Lincoln is that the border states where slavery existed in Kentucky and Maryland who have Washington, D.C., but West Virginia and Delaware remained in the Union. But in those states, there were about 700,000 slaves. But the fact that those states remained in the Union was good for Lincoln because Maryland decided to leave the Union militarily that would have certainly brought a whole different perspective as to how much longer the Union would have lasted with the Nation's capital being surrounded by the Confederates. Abra Lee: [37:25] Now, at this point, it is not yet called the Emancipation Oak. That happens about two years later, in January of 1863. Under this treat, newly freed African American students listen as the Emancipation Proclamation is read out loud. This is essentially the document that officially and legally ends slavery in the United States. I want to be very clear, there are scholars who are experts on the Emancipation Proclamation document just as they are on the United States Constitution. But summing it up for the Tree audience, we just want to make clear that that's what that document is in 1863, and also add, Doug, to your audience that this does not account for Juneteenth. And it being June of 1865 when the message gets to the enslaved African Americans in Texas that slavery is over. So, there is a long two-and-a-half-year gap there before all black people in the United States are notified that slavery is over. But the first Southern reading of this document happens under this live oak tree in Hampton, Virginia. It's issued under the administration of Abraham Lincoln. This is his work. It's his document. And I also want to say, in many ways, it is a failed promise to a lot of black people in America. So that's how I feel about it in my own words. I am basing that comment that I'm saying to you on having read Up from Slavery, Booker T. Washington's autobiography, and Booker T. Washington himself, being a student of Hampton University, being this great orator of America, and being handpicked as a former student of Hampton to be the first black President of an HBCU at Tuskegee. So there is a forever permanent Hampton Tuskegee connection that arc there. So back to his autobiography. I, for pretty much all of my life, looked at the Emancipation Proclamation as this document where it's read, enslaved people are free. And that was very– Doug Still: [39:45] It was a declaration. Abra Lee: [39:46] It was a declaration, Doug. That's all it is. Because not just him, he's not the only one that says this, but he definitely makes a point of saying this in his biography, "When this document is read, yes. Is this declaration that black people are free? Yes, Anne." So, the reality is when he also talks about our older black enslaved people, people who might be in their 8th or 9th decade, this document is read, but where are you going to go? You don't own any land, the clothes on your back aren't yours. So quietly and slowly, after this document is read, there are still many black people who go back to the plantations, back to the big house, back to whatever their former masters were, because at this point, slavery is illegal, and still have to work for them and have this relationship. So it's complicated. It's read as this thing that freed the slaves, but it doesn't really free people because there's still nowhere to go. You don't own anything, you don't have anything. Doug Still: [40:48] Right. It must have been incredible to hear for the first time, however, just in a symbolically. Abra Lee: [40:55] Absolutely. So, let's speak to that as well. Even in my own family, and obviously-- I'm speaking from my own experience. In black families where oral history is important, the story that is shared within my own family that I've known since I was a child, My great-great-grandmother, [unintelligible [00:41:16], a beautiful woman. I'm so proud that we even have a picture of her, like a real photograph of her, she was 12 years old-- In 1863, she was on the Purifoy plantation in Upson County, Georgia, when the Union soldiers came. She was milking a cow. That is the way that it is told in my family, as told to her children and her grandchildren, who were my great aunts. Meaning, I knew these women in my life, my grandmother's sisters. And she was milking a cow, and the Union soldier came and took the bucket out of her hand and let her know that the war was over and that the Emancipation Proclamation had been read and slavery had ended. So, this is an important message. Doug Still: [42:00] She hadn’t heard until the end of the war. Abra Lee: [42:02] Exactly. Doug Still: [42:02] The Emancipation Proclamation was a couple of years earlier. Abra Lee: [42:06] Exactly. And I've never known the month in my family when she is told, but the origins of freedom in the [unintelligible 00:42:17]-- My last name is Lee, but this is on my mama's side, the [unintelligible [00:42:15] family. The origins of freedom in my family start with the story of [unintelligible [00:42:20], my great-great-grandmother, and that happening. It's important, because that's where I would say act two of the legacy of my family starts from being enslaved to now free black people. Doug Still: [42:38] What a great story. Abra Lee: [42:40] Thank you. Doug Still: [42:41] When we returned from another break, Professor Watson and Abra Lee describe the anticipation people felt leading up to the release of the Emancipation Proclamation, what we know about the event under the famous tree and efforts to preserve the tree’s legacy. You are listening to This Old Tree. [song] Doug Still: [43:22] Getting back to Hampton, then house was the news of the Emancipation Proclamation distributed across the country? Was Hampton one of the first places that people heard about it and how did people know about it? Robert Watson: [43:41] Well, excellent question. Thank you. The news of Lincoln going to do something special was on the grapevine. People were talking. And some of the people who were talking worked in the White House. One woman who worked in the White House and who was a Modis, that is, she made ball gowns for Lincoln's wife, had begun to talk to people about this event. And so that event becomes like the grapevine that Lincoln was going to do. By the way, the woman's name was Elizabeth Keckly. And Keckly has spread the news. The grapevine in the black community has always been a very powerful internet. As this sits on Lincoln's desk, people who were traveling, people who own boats are sharing that information. They go from one place to the next place. So, the word is out. So much so that in places such as Hampton, the night before-- Now you brought this up earlier, Doug. The night before, black people began to do something that they had not done before, and that was celebrate by having, what we call, a Watch Night service, where people went to church, they went to brush arbor[?] where people were praying away from their slave masters, they were praying that Lincoln would follow through on his promise, on his act, rather. They were hoping that that would become reality the next day. And so, the next day, the first reading from what I've researched of the Emancipation Proclamation, the first public reading, was at the Emancipation Oak here in Hampton. There's no record that I've seen that will tell you how people heard about it at that point. But if we look at the way news spread it during those days, generally what happened is that people would come to a place, stand on a stump or they would stand on a box, and then they will share whatever it was they were reading with the public. And so, the jubilation comes at that point. One of the ink pens, by the way, that Lincoln used to write the Emancipation Proclamation is housed in the Hampton University Museum. So, when you visit our campus, you'll be able to see what's called the Pen of Liberty. Doug Still: [46:36] Wow, that's great to have in the collection. Robert Watson: [46:38] Yes, indeed. Doug Still: [46:40] Could you describe the Watchnight service a little bit? Robert Watson: [46:43] Oh, yeah. Doug Still: [46:44] Did it happen nightly? Robert Watson: [46:46] No, it actually happened on the last day or the last night of the year. It's something that's still celebrated where people go to church, and they pray, and they bring food. They are praying and asking for God to make the next year better than the previous year. Doug Still: [47:09] So this happened on December 31st. Robert Watson: [47:11] Right. December 31st, throughout the country. And that's what's so amazing about it is because not to have the telephone or even the telegraph at one disposal really does give you some idea as to the power of the word and how it spread, how it spread it rather. So, people are playing music, they're singing songs, food is being prepared. And that food that's being prepared, that recipe that's prepared for people to consume that night and also the next day, it also has a lot of traditions. Certain types of food, for example, particularly turnip greens, collard greens, seasoned with a pork ham hocks. ham, sometimes pigtails, pig ears, sweet potatoes, candy yam. I'm making myself hungry here. Doug Still: [48:12] That's right. [laughs] Robert Watson: [48:14] But those are the kinds of things that happen on Watch Night. And later on, I learned from my parents that some family will put a penny into the food, and that penny was an indication, "Look, I got a penny this year, but I hope this coming year, I won't have much more money." So, it's in there as a good luck charm. Doug Still: [48:40] At the Watch Night Service in 1862, it's in the air that there's this document on Lincoln's desk. And was that incorporated in some of the services? Is there any documentation from that or just we know that that's probably what happened? Robert Watson: [48:59] We know that that's probably what happened. I have not seen any documentation on it. And here, I think, is the importance of oral tradition, because normally, as you would know with traditional history, if it's not written down, then some people think it's not credible. But with people who are not literate in terms of writing or a tradition is in fact as legitimate. Doug Still: [49:30] That makes a lot of sense. Robert Watson: [49:32] And one must almost also, here's where you have the opportunity. One has opportunity to talk about Africanisms that have been retained by African Americans throughout the diaspora. Because people are coming from societies in Africa where writing was not the most important thing, but being able to tell a story and that story get passed on became part of tradition that was retained here in the Americas. I've done research and read stories about people who were concerned that he was not going to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Some people believe that it would be, as it always was, a promise, but an empty promise. The fact that Lincoln followed through is one of the reasons why even today, Lincoln is acknowledged as the great President, because he followed through. Furthermore, Lincoln's legacy of being a great emancipator was actually carried forward in a more aggressive way than it was by white Americans who do not see Lincoln as this great heroic figure that black people see him as. Abra Lee: [50:57] Prior to this happening, there's a buzz going around. You go to the enslaved person that's charged with carrying the mail to take it to the post office, they're hearing and getting word that something's going on. So, something is brewing in America, and the black people are knowing that the end of slavery is coming. They're just not knowing when. But it's like the word in the street, the telephone game, maybe you play when you were a child. They're not unaware that it's going to happen. They just don't know when. So when Lincoln makes this declaration, I don't want to say it's a full surprise. I think it's certainly a day that many of them never thought they would see, but many of them also know it's coming. Doug Still: [51:38] But likely it could have been a soldier? Abra Lee: [51:41] Yes, and they're hearing the soldiers talking, because still black people are enslaved, which makes us, in many ways, invisible. Now, just because it may not be legal for you to read and write, that don't mean it's illegal for you to hear. So they're aware. They're looking around, they're hearing things, they know that this document is coming. And yes, indeed, the Union soldiers are the ones reading this document. That is a fact. And it wasn't just read by one person. This is a document that's issued by the federal government through the Lincoln administration. So, the message is passed very quickly. Now super quickly among black folks. All it took was one of us to hear it, and we carried that message right on down from Virginia to Georgia, Alabama, and beyond. We were not messing around. So no one spread it quicker than the black people in America at the time. Doug Still: [52:31] It was clear there was something symbolic about reading it under this tree, however, in Hampton. Abra Lee: [52:36] Oh, for sure, because this was a tree-- Trees are gathering spots, right? This tree, being a place where the first unofficially public black school in America is held this significance with Mary Peake, who also doesn't live to hear-- Though she's born a free black woman and she is a free black woman, she's teaching these enslaved black people who have escaped from slavery on the run, and she does not live to hear this Emancipation Proclamation read. Doug Still: [53:09] Is that right? Abra Lee: [53:10] That's right. She passes away in 1862 of tuberculosis. Doug Still: [53:15] The year before. Abra Lee: [53:16] That's right. The summer before, about, I believe it's August of 1862. So she herself doesn't even get to witness this document being read. But again, back to the lead up of it, we have to believe that she's aware that something is happening. The Civil War, American history is, there's just no ever clear, simplified answer to anything, Doug. And so it is an open dialogue. That's why I love how you use trees as your ministry to have these real conversations that relate to our history. It's not as straightforward as it can always seem. I'm not calling one right or wrong. We're just saying it is what it is. And trees have a part in this. Trees play a role in this as well. Doug Still: [54:06] Were there a lot of people there? Robert Watson: [54:08] According to the record, there were hundreds there. It appears from the research that there were hundreds of people there, and that's based upon this area having a large population of people right at Fort Monroe or Fortress Monroe, and also in downtown Hampton. Doug Still: [54:28] Wow, what a day that must have been. Robert Watson: [54:30] I read somewhere, one of the historians who I read mentioned that it was a woman who learned that she had been free. And the jubilation, the joy of knowing that she was free is something that is hard for me to fathom, because I cannot imagine having been enslaved. I cannot imagine on that day when people receive the idea that the order that they had been freed and then saying to themselves, "I can go find my brother, I can go find my sister, I can go find my husband or my wife, because that's what I can do now as a free person." Doug, I think sometimes, when we talk about freedom in this country, it is a word that is really underestimated. To be free to do your own thing, to have mobility, to say that I'm going to have say so over whether my children get sold or not is a tremendous something to have. I share this with you real quick. Doug Still: [55:57] Yeah. Robert Watson: [56:00] When you hear a black person say, that's my brother or that's my sister, they're not talking about someone who is biologically related. They're talking about someone whose experiences are similar. And so, when this Emancipation Proclamation comes about, people in Virginia-- And the records show this. People in Virginia go south to Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia looking for the loved ones that were sold down south during the domestic slave trade. Doug Still: [56:39] Which is still a dangerous mission. Robert Watson: [56:41] Yes, absolutely. Exactly. Doug Still: [56:44] Yeah. You mentioned before we started the interview that there were gardeners in the 1920s and 1930s that used to collect acorns and germinate them and grow trees. Abra Lee: [56:58] Yes, Doug. And these ain't just any gardeners. These are women who belong to the historic and storied Negro Garden Club of Virginia, which is founded on the campus of Hampton University. On April 22nd, 1932. Four people found that organization. Dr. William Cooper, who's Head of Extension, a Hampton professor named Asa Sims, who is incredibly active in the garden club up until his death. He teaches floral culture and horticulture at Hampton. A Hampton Roads area educator and principal named P.J. Chesson is also at the table. And the only woman at the table that day is a woman named Ethel Earley Clark, who is the first President of the Negro Garden Club of Virginia. This group that black women lead, and tens of thousands of them are members of from the 1932 well up until the early 2000s. Though the clubs don't formally meet as they once did, there are people who were members of that club who are still alive today. But with these garden clubs, the first known black garden club that was part of the Negro Garden Club of Virginia, again, that's the word used at that time was a club called the Ever Blooming Garden Club. It is founded by a black woman named Irma Thompson. And in the early 1930s, some of the garden club women from the Ever Blooming Garden Club in the Hampton Roads area, along with some of the professors of Hampton, have collected acorns and created seedlings to these trees. They grow them and then they plant them. One of the places that they planted them was at a school called the Booker T. Washington school, which I believe we can go back and fact check was a middle school. And so, there's a beautiful picture that I'll send you of where one of the tree seedlings has been planted. The seedling is established in, I believe, 1934. And then this picture is from the 1960s, and it's a tree behind them. It's grown into a fully formed tree. Doug Still: [59:07] That's 100-year-old tree now. Abra Lee: [59:09] Exactly. It's a 100-year-old tree now. That's right. Doug Still: [59:12] 90, I guess. Abra Lee: [59:12] I was able to trace the legacy of this tree up into the mid-90s. So it was still standing up until that point. Irma Thompson, and there's a beautiful picture of her and a woman named Elizabeth Hines, who was also a member of the Ever-Blooming Garden Club. And at this point, Elizabeth Hines-- Both of these women are educators. And at that point, Elizabeth Hines in the 1960s is the president of that garden club. At that point, the tree that they have behind them is called the Clark Oak. So they take these seeds, these acorns from the Emancipation Oak grow seedlings, plant this tree at a children's school and name the tree that grows after N. B. Clark, who is a pioneer black educator and a classmate of Booker T. Washington at Hampton. So, the tree's name changes from Emancipation Oak to the children of the Emancipation Oak being named after other black educators in that region. So, I think that's a beautiful story of evolution as well. Doug Still: [01:00:13] Through my own grapevine, I was put in touch with a local arborist who recently had the same idea to grow offspring of the famous Emancipation Oak tree to help preserve its legacy. His name is Tim Nuckols of Nuckols Tree Care in nearby Virginia Beach. [01:00:30] Hi, Tim. Welcome to the show. Tim Nuckols: [01:00:32] Thank you, Doug. Happy to be here. Doug Still: [01:00:35] Now, you initiated an effort to collect and germinate acorns from the tree. Tim Nuckols: [01:00:40] Yes, son. Doug Still: [01:00:41] How did that come about, and what do you plan to do with the seedlings? Tim Nuckols: [01:00:45] Well, I was driving down the road one day, and I had an epiphany of, it would be really nice to take these oak, these acorns and see if we can grow them into some trees that we could return to the university for their alumni or whoever they chose to pass them out to. And so, I recruited a couple of arborists in the area. The main one is Chad Peevy with Old Dominion University. He's their head arborist there. Then Dr. Pete Schultz at Virginia Tech research facility. Doug Still: [01:01:30] What's the goal of your effort? Tim Nuckols: [01:01:32] Well, to grow these trees to a certain height, 2ft to 3ft, so we can return them to the university as a gift. No profit involved. We're not interested in making any money. We just wanted to do what was right. The tree will die one day. It's in really good shape, but one day it's going to go, and it would be great to have some prodigies that are planted all over the area or even all over the country. It would be nice. Doug Still: [01:02:08] That's wonderful. Why is this tree important to you? Tim Nuckols: [01:02:12] Well, when I read the history of the Emancipation Oak, the freed slave who would teach people how to read underneath the tree in the evening, so it just struck me as really a story of perseverance in a time that was so bad for these folks. Doug Still: [01:02:37] Wonderful. Well, that'll be a nice gift. Tim Nuckols: [01:02:39] Yes. I'm looking forward to handing it over to them. And these things you do that are good, it makes you feel good when you do them. Doug Still: [01:02:48] And back to Professor Robert Watson and Abra Lee. [01:02:52] It must be rewarding to teach your students this history of Mary Peake and the Emancipation Proclamation and the oak tree. Have you taught under the tree yourself? Robert Watson: I have. Thank you so much for that question. The answer is yes. In fact, every semester, I teach at least two classes under the Emancipation Oak, and we talk about Mary Peake. When I go there, the student will ask me, "You said were going on a field trip. When are we going and where are we going?" I say, "Well, I'm not going to tell you where you're going, but I can tell you when we're going." And I'll tell them usually a week or so in advance, so they can bring their walking shoes. Even if it's raining, we'll go. If it's snowing, we'll go. Because I say if Dr. King and Carmichael and the rest of those people who fought-- Fannie Lou Hamer for the rights for us to be able to vote, I say a little rain, a little snow is not going to bother you. You're going to be out there momentarily. So we go. We go to the Emancipation Oak, and I compare that tree with some of the iconic symbols of struggle and freedom throughout history. The Berlin Wall. I say the Berlin Wall was a barrier that kept people who wanted to be part of a democracy from the totalitarian state of communism. So, they risked their lives to climb over that wall. This tree is a symbol of struggle, equality, and education. Your university is right there is the outgrowth of the motivation of people like Mary Peake for us to have a university. I said that tree also is symbolic of Robben Island. Then they look around, "Robben Island? Where is that? I say, "Robben Island is where Nelson Mandela was held for 20 plus years." I think it's 27 years. I say, so there. I say, "You know, let's just go one farther." I say, "There's a Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C." Because the Jews say, "Never again will we allow Hitler or Mussolini or anyone else to destroy who we are." So, they say, "Never again." I say, "This tree stands for a reason." I say, "People learn about struggle for equality and freedom.’ I said, "But let's just go one more." I said, "Tiananmen Square." And I look around, I say, "Anybody know where Tiananmen Square is?" "Oh, yeah." I have one student who know. I say, "When young people stood near a tank because they were protesting Macedon and other policies towards individual freedoms." I said, "Here we have the individual freedom because some people struggled." They get it. It takes some of them a little while to get it. And then my final point for taking them there is that, I say, "You know, when you graduate from Hampton and you go to a Fortune 500 company, major corporation, I say, ‘People are going to be gathering around the coffee pot and the water cooler and water fountain, and they going to ask you, ‘What do you know about Emancipation Oak?’" I say, "It would be embarrassing to me, and it's going to be more embarrassing to you if you don't know the history of this symbolic living organism." So, yes, I do take it and I enjoy. Doug Still: [01:06:45] Professor Watson, thanks so much for joining me. That was just an incredible presentation and talk we had, and I appreciate everything you do. Robert Watson: [01:06:53] Thank you. And I appreciate what you're doing, because this is better than the grapevine. Doug Still: [01:07:01] That's right. Robert Watson: [01:07:03] Absolutely. Doug Still: [01:07:03] Yeah. Well, thanks again. Robert Watson: [01:07:06] You are welcome. Thank you. You come to Hampton. Doug Still: [01:07:10] Absolutely. So, we've talked about how the trees factored into the legacy of the school, and I think our country, but how would you describe the feeling that you had when you walked up to the tree? Abra Lee: [01:07:23] The feeling I had when I walked up to the tree was excitement, and the excitement of, "I can't believe I'm seeing this tree." You're talking about a tree that is 200 years old, and has seen a lot of things go down, including the Civil War, including slavery, including reconstruction, including the Jim Crow era. So, the things that this tree has witnessed, that just came over me in that moment thinking about, "This tree has seen the history of America unfold in many ways and is still standing to tell that story." Doug Still: [01:07:59] Well, thank you so much for spending time with me and telling this story about the Emancipation Oak and its legacy. Abra Lee: [01:08:05] Thank you, Doug. It is always so fun to talk to you. It's so exciting. Trees are everything. And I'm just so grateful that you do this work, and just share so much and have so many lively, thoughtful conversations centered around trees. It's amazing. Thank you. All right, well, we've got to keep doing it. We got to go find more cool trees to talk about. Doug Still: [01:08:23] [laughs] Absolutely. Thanks so much. Abra Lee: [01:08:26] Thank you. Doug Still: [01:08:30] If the Emancipation Proclamation was a crucial but still unsatisfactory step toward freedom, then education lays the path to true emancipation. It's that connection that the Emancipation Oak encapsulates and where we find its powerful resonance. Once again, I'd like to thank Abra Lee and Robert Watson for sharing their knowledge and heartfelt sentiments on the show today. You truly made it special. Thanks to Tim Nuckols for joining us as well, and I'm looking forward to hearing where those seedlings get planted. The choral music you've been listening to is a piece called Steal Away, a Traditional spiritual composed by Wallace Willis, sometime before 1862. This version was sung by the Winston Salem State University Choir and was arranged by composer Roland Carter, a graduate and former music teacher at Hampton University. Our consulting editor is Josh Abrams. Theme music is by Dee Lee, and artwork is by Dahn Hiuni. Please visit the show website at thisoldtree.show, and you can find photos and more information on Facebook and Instagram. I'm Doug Still. See you next time on This Old Tree. [theme music] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Autograph Tree (Transcript) Season 2, Episode 1 Published October 11, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] Beech trees have a smooth, thin gray bark that makes the perfect writing tablet for vandals. This is true for both Fagus grandifolia - that's American beech here in North America - and the species Fagus sylvatica, indigenous to much of Europe. You can't blame tree lovers or park managers for shaking their heads in dismay upon seeing Johnny plus Susie scratched proudly onto the trunk, marring it for decades. But not everyone feels that way. There's a magnificent copper beech in Ireland - Gort in County Galway to be exact - where bark signatures were not only appreciated but encouraged. They made the tree famous. Thousands of tourists come to visit it each year, also to see the Coole Park Nature Reserve where it stands. What's the story here? To crack this beech nut, we need to delve into the world of Isabella Augusta Gregory, or Lady Gregory as she's known. Writer, intellectual, playwright, folklorist and patron of the Irish literary revival at the turn of the 20th century, Lady Gregory drew writers of her day to her house and garden. If they made the grade, they were allowed to sign our subject today, The Autograph Tree. I'm Doug Still and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [02:13] Who was Lady Gregory and why were her literary guests at Coole Park signing her copper beech tree? I have two of the world's foremost scholars on Lady Gregory here to describe her life and passions, Dr. James Pethica of Williams College, and Dr. Anna Pilz of the University of Edinburgh. First, however, I actually had the privilege of traveling to Gort, Ireland to stand beneath the canopy of this amazing tree in person as William Butler Yeats did, and George Bernard Shaw, and Seán O'Casey, George William Russell, and many others. While there, I met some very kind staff members at the Coole Park Nature Reserve, including Becky Teesdale, Jenni McGuire, Niall O'Reilly, and Margaux Pierrel, who not only showed me the beech tree but also the gorgeous woods and paths and lakes that make up this conservation gem. Here's my interview with Jenni McGuire, the head guide at Coole with the noble beech towering over us. Hi, Jenni. Jenni McGuire: [03:16] Hi, Doug. Nice to meet you. Doug Still: [03:18] For our listeners, what's the setting here, and what is Coole Park? Jenni McGuire: [00:03:23] So, yes, we're in a mixed broadleaf woodland. It's a nature reserve of about 1,000 acres. We're standing in the walled garden within that nature reserve. We're about 10 kms inland from the coast at Kinvara, so we're quite low lying here. It was designated a nature reserve in 1983, but prior to that it has a rich cultural history dating back to 1768 when the park area, initially 600 acres, was acquired by the first of four generations of Gregory’s to own this estate. So, that was Robert Gregory in 1768. Subsequent four generations of the Gregory family have continued a tradition of planting trees in the estate. The first Robert set about building stone walls all around the boundary, and he established a nursery in what is now our red deer enclosure to furnish the woodlands with exotic trees. As the age of botany developed and explorers went traveling further afield, they were able to bring back more exotic specimens. So, as you go for, perhaps, a little wander around the reserve later on, you may see specimens that you may be more familiar with in the States. We have Western Red Cedar, we have a sequoia, we have a Monterey pine. So, all of these are our living history, the legacy left behind by the Gregory family. Doug Still: [04:56] I recognized some of them on the drive in was spectacular. We drove into a tunnel of trees from the countryside, and you instantly know you're in a different space. Jenni McGuire: [05:08] That's right. Yeah, estates were all about status symbols as well. The main driveway that you came in on will have been planted up by the third-generation of Gregory family. So, they planted a lot of lime trees, so common lime around Quercus ilex, so holm oak or holly oak. And this formed like a Gothic arch above the main driveway, which was intended to have impact as people approach the estate. Doug Still: [05:37] Yes. You tested me on the holly oak [Jenni laughs] just a minute ago, and I failed miserably by the very interesting tree. Jenni McGuire: [05:43] We let you off. [laughter] Doug Still: [05:46] What part of the estate are we on now? Jenni McGuire: [05:48] So, we're in the walled garden. We're not too far from the main house. That was built in 1770, I believe. But the house was central in the whole estate, and the walled garden was a little bit off to the left. It's a walled garden. It used to be called the flower garden in Lady Gregory's time. So, Lady Gregory was the wife of the final Gregory generation to own the estate. She married Sir William Gregory in the 1800s. She was very young. She wasn't from far away. She was only from another wealthy landowning estate of Roxborough, about 5 miles from here. Doug Still: [06:35] I see. Jenni McGuire: [06:36] She was the youngest of a family of about 17 children and a little bit disregarded by her parents. Doug Still: [06:42] Well, after 16 other siblings. Jenni McGuire: [06:45] Yeah, I think so. I think they were a bit bored of children at that point. [laughter] Doug Still: [06:50] Well, she made a name for herself. Jenni McGuire: [06:51] She did. So, the walled garden itself was really only a minor factor of the estate. It was a place where they could come and sit and enjoy the peace and quiet, and the additional heat that a walled garden provides. The high walls protecting from the salt laden wind. It wasn't the main destination. The autograph tree would not have been the focal point of the walled garden. You saw as you walked in that it's off to the side. It's not in a central location. It doesn't draw the eye until you get a bit closer to it and have stopped looking at everything else. Doug Still: [00:07:30] Jenni shared that Lady Gregory was widowed in 1892. Jenni McGuire: [00:07:34] That's when her life took off in a literary fashion. But also parallel to that was her love of tree planting. She then met William Butler Yeats, a famous poet. She met him in London in 1896, and he then came to Coole. She invited him to Coole in 1898, and thus was the start of a lifelong friendship. He subsequently visited Coole Park for 20 consecutive summers. Doug Still: [08:06] Wow. Jenni McGuire: [08:05] He was the first to be invited to carve his initials in the Autograph Tree. Doug Still: [08:10] I see. Jenni McGuire: [08:11] Now this wasn't a new practice. Like, trees are etched all over the world. Doug Still: [08:18] That's one of the ID features for a beech tree. Jenni McGuire: [08:20] It is. Yeah. Doug Still: [08:21] If someone's carved their initials into it, when you teach people for the first time. Jenni McGuire: [08:27] Yeah. It's the smooth bark. Doug Still: [08:29] Yeah. Jenni McGuire: [08:30] It's perfect. Doug Still: [08:30] It just welcomes that. Jenni McGuire: [08:32] It does. And Lady Gregory, she knew her trees as is evident in an article she wrote for the Irish Homestead. At a time when horticultural practice and actual females planting trees and knowing so much about sylviculture was quite unheard of. And for her to write a practical article about planting trees was quite unusual. Doug Still: [08:56] If you listen closely, you can hear the rain pattering down on the canopy of the autograph tree above us. Jenni read a quote from a visitor to the walled garden named Sidney [unintelligible [00:09:05]. Jenni McGuire: [09:07] That afternoon, I found the garden. The rare glow of sunshine lay on the high gray walls, hung with yellow drooping roses and reddening vines and waxy white flowers. A broad shadowed walk ran the length of the wall. There was an enchanting vista of it from the garden gate. I went slowly along, crushing rosemary between my fingers and wondering at the dark groups of stately Irish hues. At the end of the garden, I found a gate in the wall, a big old rusty and green gate through which I peered at a wet wilderness of trees and mossy stones. So, as you've seen yourself, it doesn't look too much different to those times. It hasn't changed an awful lot, but the big difference is the gate at the end of the wall. Now, that was locked in those times. Yeats was given a key. He had free reign of the grounds. [Doug laughs] When he came to visit here, Lady Gregory really looked after him. He was given the best room in the house, he was given free reign of the wine cellar, which really irked her son, Robert. [Doug laughs] She set out fresh paper and ink for him every morning, and she really tried to nurture his writing. He was given the key to nutwood and he would often be found just wandering, lost in thought. If he passed anybody, he rarely acknowledged them. He was very much away with the fairies. Doug Still: [10:34] [laughs] That's funny. Jenni McGuire: [10:35] What she created here was a literary landscape within a woodland setting. Like, she had equal love of both. She loved the literary side. She penned 50 plays herself. She nurtured Yeats. She invited all these literary greats here, whose names are all before us on the tree, slightly blurred now, over time. When she set about gathering folklore from local Irish people, she took herself off to the Aran Islands of County Galway to go and gather folklore and translated it from Irish. So, she was bringing the Irish language back into the fore at a time when Ireland was under-- There was a lot of political unrest and the Irish kind of-- Irishism was disappearing under the weight of that, and she wanted to revive that, and she found her partner in Yeats to help do that. Doug Still: [11:34] Yes, they both did. Jenni McGuire: [11:35] They did. The late 1800s, early 1900s was the Irish literary revival. They established the Irish National Theatre, a world stage for Irish playwrights to have a voice. Up until then, it had been maybe American theatre companies, British companies touring, and Irish people weren't very well portrayed, a bit typecast. So, this was an option, an opportunity for Irish playwrights to-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [12:06] And a celebration of Irish folklore. Jenni McGuire: [12:08] Absolutely. Doug Still: [12:09] So, you have a quote from Lady Gregory. Jenni McGuire: [12:11] But lady Gregory, yeah, to indicate her love of trees and her knowledge of trees, she wrote in The Irish Homestead, and this was printed in 1898, the same year that Yeats signed this tree. And she wrote, “We find the little seedlings we had put down in faith are over our heads and acting as our protectors. And even if we do not live to sit under their shade, yet nonetheless, they will grow while we are sleeping, that long sleep in which we may so easily be forgotten. And we are not likely to have more lasting monuments put over us, and we cannot have more gracious ones than the living, rustling trees that we had planted and that we had loved.” Doug Still: [12:57] This is the perfect place to read that- Jenni McGuire: [12:59] Oh, absolutely. Doug Still: [13:00] -as the autograph tree is rustling in the wind and protecting us from the light rain that's happening outside. Jenni McGuire: [13:07] Yes, absolutely it is. It's a cathedral under here. It's a copper beech, as we've said. It's Fagus sylvatica ‘purpurea.’ Doug Still: [13:17] Could you describe the tree for our listeners? Jenni McGuire: [13:18] Yeah. We estimate it's around 200 years old, give or take 20 years. Doug Still: [13:26] Well, it's covered in moss, so it looks very old as well. Jenni McGuire: [13:28] It’s covered in moss. Yeah. We're standing underneath like some drooping boughs, which creating a tent like atmosphere. As you look up, it is reminiscent of like a cathedral dome. The drooping boughs are grazing the floor around it. We're completely protected from the elements under here. The girth of the tree itself, in 2017, measured three and a half meters. It's likely put on a little bit of weight since then as well, but we currently have a little boardwalk around the base of the tree, so that visitors can look all the way around it. Doug Still: [14:14] And protect the roots. Jenni McGuire: [14:15] And protect the roots. We have a metal cage which was put in place, I think, in the 1970s, or it's been protected since the early 1970s, because as well as all of our literary greats, we have a lot of locals, and visitors, and foresters who have also carved their initials on here over the years. Doug Still: [14:37] Right. The temptation is too great. Jenni McGuire: [14:39] Too great. Yeah. Doug Still: [14:40] So, now they can't do that. Jenni McGuire: [14:41] They can't do that at all. But yeah, there's a plaque standing at the base of the tree listing some of the key figures that signed their names. There are numbers marked on the back of the tree to help locate them, because over the years, every signing is damage to the tree, the tree tries to repair itself. It's quite incredible that it survived all of this repair. Some of the autographs have folded in on themselves now and are really hard to decipher. Doug Still: [15:15] Now, on the sign, there are 15 people listed- Jenni McGuire: [15:19] Yeah. Doug Still: [15:19] -and there are markers on the tree where their initials are. Jenni McGuire: [15:24] That's it. Yes. So, it indicates exactly where each initial was. And then we also list a few other names of significant people who've also signed the tree, but they aren't labeled by number. But if you're interested in learning a little bit more about them, I can tell you who some of them are. There's actually an interesting one. She's not labelled on the tree, but she was an actress called Sara Allgood. She was one of the leading ladies in many of Lady Gregory's plays. But in her later life, she moved to Hollywood and ended up starring in a lot of the early talkie movies. She was nominated for an Academy Award for How Green Was My Valley, an old John Ford film from way back. Doug Still: [16:12] Now, would a lot of the people have been invited by William Yeats or both or--? Jenni McGuire: [16:21] Lady Gregory was the sole decider of who signed this tree. Doug Still: [16:25] I see. Jenni McGuire: [16:25] Yes. This was her tree. She decided it. Doug Still: [16:28] It must have been considered an honor. Jenni McGuire: [16:30] It must have been. Oh, it was indeed. There were other guests here who weren't invited to sign the tree, even though they were here with the literary grace. Doug Still: [16:39] They must have left disappointed. Who comes to visit Coole Park now? Jenni McGuire: [16:44] People from all over the world. We have coach tours, we have a lot of Americans come here, we have national tour groups come here, literary groups, poet groups. There's a regular poetry group called The Gathering Cloud Collective who come and do poetry readings under the tree. Literary students will come and families. People, who just stumble across it have no idea what they're looking at. And also, ecologists. So, it appeals to people coming at it from a historical angle and people coming at it from a love of nature. Initially, you felt it yourself. You had to duck through a small opening in the boughs to come and enter into this dome like tent. That's the initial impression is just of awe at the size and just wonderment in looking up at those boughs. Doug Still: [17:43] Yeah. I can say when we entered the walled garden, it didn't stand out right of way- Jenni McGuire: [17:48] No. Doug Still: [17:48] -until we got maybe halfway down the path, because it's sort of a wall of leaves. Jenni McGuire: [17:54] Yeah. Doug Still: [17:53] [chuckles] It looks like when you walk up to it, but then you see the tunnel entrance and you walk in. It's a different world under here. Jenni McGuire: [18:01] Yeah, it is. Doug Still: [18:03] What would you say is the most common question about it? Jenni McGuire: [18:06] About the tree? Doug Still: [18:07] About the tree or Coole Park. Jenni McGuire: [18:09] The most common question we actually get asked in the visitor center is, what happened to the house? Because the house no longer stands. Doug Still: [18:16] Right. What did happen to the house? Jenni McGuire: [18:18] What did happen to the house? Well, the common misconception is that it was burned during the Troubles, but it wasn't burned at all. Lady Gregory died in 1932. When she died, she had no longer been the owner of the house for five years. Her daughter-in-law, Margaret Perry, so her son's wife had sold the house with Lady Gregory's blessing to the state. It was run then by the Forestry Service, who then spent the next 60 years planting up available space with commercial timber for lumber. But Lady Gregory, according to Sir William's will, she was entitled to remain in the house until her death. So, she actually ended up paying rent to stay in her own house. Doug Still: [19:08] Okay. Jenni McGuire: [19:09] She paid £100 a year, but she was actually quite happy that it had gone to the Forestry Service, because-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [19:15] Right. She didn't have to take care of it anymore. Jenni McGuire: [19:16] She didn't, but she still was involved. She was delighted that- Doug Still: [19:20] I'm sure. Jenni McGuire: [19:21] -planting was taking place, that this kind of tree planting legacy was still being continued and that the estate would remain for future generations as a woodland. So, her, paying rent. She was no longer receiving rent from tenants. So, the upkeep was a little bit hard on the house. And then when she died, the first thing the Forestry Service did was remove the lead from the roof. It's obviously something that could have been recycled at the time. Ireland was a relatively new independent state, and any kind of recycling and saving of money would have been to the fore. Once the weather gets in, then the demise of the house was-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [20:00] Once you start dismantling the roof- Jenni McGuire: [20:02] Yes, that’s it. Doug Still: [20:02] -it's over, isn't it? Jenni McGuire: [20:03] So, it was eventually demolished for the price of the stone to a local building contractor in 1941. Sadly. Doug Still: [20:11] Okay. Jenni McGuire: [20:11] Yes. [theme music] Doug Still: [20:16] We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll take a walk through that garden gate that Jenni talked about into the magical woods of the Coole-Garryland, Special Area of Conservation with the Conservation Ranger, Margaux Pierrel. Then I have a conversation with Lady Gregory scholar, James Pethica, to dig down into who Lady Gregory was and how the autograph tree helps tell her story. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [21:05] So, I'm here with the Conservation Ranger at Coole Park. Could you state your name? Margaux Pierrel: [21:10] Hi. My name is Margaux Pierrel. And yes, I'm the ranger for Coole Park and Garryland Nature Reserve. Doug Still: [21:16] So, we're in the Coole-Garryland Nature Reserve right now. Margaux Pierrel: [21:20] Yeah, that's correct. So, we walked a few kilometers from the walled garden, and now we are now at the heart of the nature reserve. Doug Still: [21:28] It's a beautiful dark wood. I wanted to ask you about European beech, because the autograph tree is a European copper beech, but they are throughout this forest, at least this part of the forest, correct? Margaux Pierrel: [21:46] Yeah. So, common beech and copper beech would actually trees that would be considered not native to Ireland. So, they are thought to have been imported in the 16th century. But in fact, most of the woodland in Ireland would be formed of beech trees nowadays. They provide good shelter and food for a lot of animal species. And right now, we're standing under one that has been carved just like the autograph tree, but in a slight different ways where it's not protective. The rest of the woodland is composed of Pedunculate oak and ash trees. And then there's another story of hazel and elm. Doug Still: [22:33] What was the type of oak tree? Margaux Pierrel: [22:35] Pedunculate. Doug Still: [22:36] Someone was just describing, this as the dark wood. Could you elaborate on that? Margaux Pierrel: [22:43] Yeah. Well, I suppose on a gray day like today, the beech trees really form that dark atmosphere. It's very sheltered, and it does get very dark. Now on a spring and sunny day, it would be a very different story with the fresh leaves and the greenery. Doug Still: [23:05] But it'd be wonderful to be in here. Margaux Pierrel: [23:06] Yeah. Every day is a different atmosphere in Ireland, really. Doug Still: [23:11] So, what people have to remember is, this is a nature reserve in addition to the cultural aspect of the park. Margaux Pierrel: [23:17] Y es, absolutely. Yeah, Coole Park is known for Lady Gregory and the autograph tree and the walled garden, but it forms part of a bigger estate that is the Coole-Garryland Nature Reserve. Now, that nature reserve was established in 1983. And since 1987, it's being managed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Now, it is designated under two directives. So, under the habitat directive, which means it's an SAC, so Special Area of Conservation. Doug Still: [23:50] I see. Margaux Pierrel: [23:50] Under the … directive, it's also protected as an SPA, a Special Protection Area. Doug Still: [23:57] What's the biggest issue you're facing right now in preserving this woodland? Margaux Pierrel: [24:03] Well, the wood itself has to be protected and managed against invasive species mostly. Doug Still: [24:14] Which a lot of them were, right, they were planted for lumber originally. Margaux Pierrel: [24:18] Yeah. So, those would not be technically considered invasive species, but more non-native. So, a lot of the conifers that were planted in the 20th century have been removed now. These areas that have been cut from conifers are now being regenerated as natural woodland. But now invasive species imported into gardens, for example, have found their way in Garryland and in Coole Park and are affecting a lot of trees. Yeah. Doug Still: [24:57] Now, the beech you were encouraging, or you're fine with the beech being, right? Margaux Pierrel: [25:03] Well, we have to start somewhere. The priority was really removing the nonnative conifers. So, the beech now they form a big part of the woodland. The beech woodland is not a qualifying interest for the nature reserve. It's not technically protected, but it forms an integral part of it. Doug Still: [25:24] We won't tell anyone. We're just going to keep these beech trees. Margaux Pierrel: [25:27] That’s it. Yes. Doug Still: [25:29] As I'm learning about Yeats poetry, he wrote about the swans on this lake. Margaux Pierrel: [25:35] Yes. Doug Still: [25:36] So, the swans would come in the winter. Margaux Pierrel: [25:37] Yes. So, the wild swans of Coole Park that Yeats was wrote about-- So, as I mentioned, the nature reserve is also designated as a special protection area for whooper swans. Doug Still: [25:51] Whooper swans. Margaux Pierrel: [25:52] Yes. So, the whooper swans are coming from Iceland and they come and migrate here to spend a milder winter than they would have had in Iceland. Doug Still: [25:59] That's a long flight. Margaux Pierrel: [26:00] It is a pretty long flight, but they can do that in a couple of days, really. And then they have all the food that they want, because Turlocks are fantastic habitats in terms of grasses that they feed on. Doug Still: [26:11] But I can see what they appreciated about this landscape. The open lake area, the deep woods, the pinetum, the walled garden, it's all just very beautiful. Margaux Pierrel: [26:24] It's very beautiful and it does sustain them. It provides food and shelter, which is the most important. Margaux Pierrel: [26:29] And of course, the autograph tree. Margaux Pierrel: [26:31] And of course, the autograph tree. Doug Still: [26:32] Margaux, thanks so much for showing me this beautiful forest. Margaux Pierrel: [26:37] Pleasure. Doug Still: [26:39] I got a great view of the autograph tree, and absolutely loved the tour through the surrounding woodlands. But who was Lady Gregory and what made her tick? How did her literary life and mission resonate with Ireland itself? Here's my talk with James Pethica, Senior Lecturer in English and Theatre at Williams College. Thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate you taking the time. James Pethica: [27:06] Absolutely, my pleasure. Doug Still: [27:08] Lady Gregory is well known in Ireland, but I would hazard to say that most of us from North America and elsewhere don't really know of her. I know you're working to change that through your work and the authorized biography you have underway. James Pethica: [27:25] That's right. First, the question of her being known, she is known, if she is known well across the world by being Yeats’s friend, Yeats’s patron. She, of course, appears in a number of his canonical poems where he's expressing his gratitude for the support she gave him. The biography, yes, I've been at work for some time, as it were, pushing the tanker in a slightly different direction trying to highlight her foundational role in so many things in Irish culture, literary and artistic culture of the time. First up, I suppose, her support for Yeats, she was really the figure who galvanized his folklore collecting, brought it in a new direction. She was a decent Irish speaker and good at translations, and that gave him access to a mass of new material. Then she helped him in a secretarial and an amanuensis role with his playwriting and gradually became a playwright herself. She also facilitated the founding of The Irish Literary Theatre, a three-year experiment which in turn led to The Abbey Theatre being built and renovated in 1904, which became Ireland's Abbey Theatre. So, an incredible influence here, much of it behind the scenes through other people, through collaboration. Doug Still: [29:07] How would you describe who she was just on a basic level? James Pethica: [29:11] Great question. Born in the west of Ireland, 1852. When we think of Galway, a country estate in Galway in 1852, that's a long way from the Metropolitan Center in Dublin, let alone the Metropolitan Center in London. Doug Still: [29:30] It feels very different. James Pethica: [29:32] Yes, it's a train ride from Galway. But getting to London, it literally is a couple of days. So, one of the youngest children in a big, bustling household, which was very insular, not bookish, particularly the purses. Her birth family were not well liked as landlords. She has the great fortune. She's 27 years old when she marries the nearby landlord of a large estate, Sir William Gregory. He's a cultivated man. He was Governor of Ceylon in the early 1870s. He'd been an MP in the British Parliament for a number of terms from early on. He is 35 years older than her. She marries just at the point where it looks like she's 27 is old in 1888-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [30:30] Right. They got married. James Pethica: [30:32] Nobody expects her to get an offer. He is looking for a companion in old age, looking for somebody who is bookish. It lights on her and it transforms her world. She immediately goes to London and is introduced into this cultivated world. He's been a Colonial Governor and knows all the political people. She's dining with the Prime Minister, cabinet ministers, the rest. Doug Still: [31:01] Her life just changed. James Pethica: [31:03] Absolutely. He has significant artistic interests. He's a Director of the National Gallery in London. So, knows all the artistic figures as well. So, you can imagine the dinner parties in a London house. Robert Browning is there, Henry James is there. It launches her into an entirely new world. Travel to India and Ceylon and so on. And she starts her earliest writings in the 1880s in a very tentative way looking for a subject. She writes travel articles, journalistic articles, but they're not in any systematic way connected with Irish culture. It's not until towards the end of the married period that she starts turning her attention to the world around her. There are reasons for that. From around 1880 onward, there was, what was termed, the land war in Ireland, where tenants are pushing basically for land distribution. Bit by bit it's clear that the stranglehold of particularly Protestant landlords and absentee landlords is going to be broken up. There are several efforts to pass Home Rule bills in the British government. She becomes more than peripherally involved in that given the tenants on the Gregory's own estate are campaigning for change and starts to pay more attention. Not to say that she hadn't had close relationships with her tenants beforehand, she was somebody who was deeply influenced by the idea of no bless oblige, “It is your duty as somebody who has money, has status, to help those who are less fortunate.” So, even as a young woman, she's gone out on the estate as a philanthropist trying to help people. But from around the late 1880s onwards, she's paying much more attention, is starting to realize, there is a distinctive culture which she's attracted by. And then when she starts reading the early writings of the so called Irish Literary Revival, particularly when she encounters Yeats’s work, that's it. Her allegiances literally shift. Instead of unionist supportive of the British connection, she starts to become a nationalist and is working for Home Rule for Ireland. Doug Still: [33:38] As you were saying, a lot of her efforts culturally and in her writings are intertwined with Yeats. How did they meet and why did they form such an immediate friendship? James Pethica: [33:49] They meet briefly at some evening soirée in 1894. I think it's fair to say that she already has her eye on him. Her diary entry reads, "At the Morrises, I met Yeats, looking every inch a poet." There's [unintelligible [00:34:08]. Though his Celtic Twilight is the best work. I think is the best work he has done. And The Celtic Twilight was a collect of folklore, mainly from the Sligo region. Doug Still: [34:21] She was already interested in that. James Pethica: [34:23] She's starting to get interested in it. She's written a few short stories, is writing to friends in London, relating little stories she's heard, and turns a phrase that interest her. She doesn't meet Yeats again, as far as we know, until nearly two years later, when he's visiting a near neighbor of hers, Edward Martin. She takes her chance. She goes over, introduces herself. I'm pretty sure that she already knew he was coming to visit because a couple of weeks beforehand, she's already starting collecting folklore and invites him. The person he's touring island with to come to lunch at her estate at Coole, and she gives him this little collection of folklore and is talking about the things she's been doing. So, he's interested immediately, I think, because she's a potential resource. She makes it clear very early on, she's willing to be a patron, a supporter. When they meet in London the following spring, she embarks on, I suppose, what you'd call, a charm offensive, inviting him to dinner to meet important people, people she thinks that he will be impressed by. Henry James, she invites to dinner. That dinner doesn't happen, but there's a sequence of people she brings in making connections for him, showing of her own, if you like her status. I'm somebody who has a social milieu that may be of use to you. Doug Still: [35:59] Is he very young at this time? James Pethica: [36:01] He is. Let me get this exactly right. 31 years old and hard up, scrabbling writing journalism to pay the rent on his little London apartment. In comes this person who basically signals to him very early on, “I'm ready to support you.” She sends him food hampers from Ireland, and then, in quite short order, starts giving him money. There's a moment in his autobiography where he says, “A few weeks later, I found £20 left behind the clock on my mantelpiece. Doug Still: [36:38] [chuckles] James Pethica: [36:41] I went to try and return it to her, but she said, “The only wrong thing is not doing your best work. You must give up journalism. So, there's the essential equation. I'll support you. I want to support your poetry, I want to support your writing.” Doug Still: [36:55] Did he introduce her to other writers at the time, or was it the other way around or mutual? James Pethica: [37:03] It's mutual. But as far as the Irish side of it, he's the one who's making it possible for her to rise quickly, provides her with the opportunities to become a significant figure in the Irish revival. She knows mainly British writers before this. She knows a few people, but he's introducing her to his inner circle, writers like George Russell, Douglas Hyde, and others. Doug Still: [37:30] I can't help, but think of other figures in the early 20th century, like, Gertrude Stein in Paris or Peggy Guggenheim or Isabella Stewart Gardner, who, through their passion and energy and wealth and position, were patrons of the arts and brought intellectuals and likeminded artists together. Would you call Lady Gregory-- maybe it's too the leader of a literary or cultural Ceylon, or would you characterize it differently? James Pethica: [38:03] Ceylon’s the awkward word there. Unlike a figure such as Isabella Stewart Gardner, who Gregory got to meet later, and they got on like a house on fire, strong, independent women. Doug Still: [38:15] [laughs] James Pethica: [38:17] Lady Gregory was not wealthy. Quite the reverse. This was a relatively encumbered estate. She didn't have money to throw around. It was the house itself and the hospitality, the peace and quiet, the retreat that it offered. Doug Still: [38:31] I see. James Pethica: [38:31] So, more important to Yeats than the others. So, Yeats, in his poem Coole Park, 1929, uses the phrase excellent company. Yes, she did bring like minded people together, workers for the movement together. A Ceylon, I think, cultivates a different kind of sense. Doug Still: [38:52] A little too formal. James Pethica: [38:54] Yes, a little too self-conscious. She wanted to be amongst interesting people and wanted to facilitate the work of interesting people. John Butler Yeats, W. B. Yeats's father, termed her the organizer of success. George Russell, in a letter to her, writes about the laboratory at Coole. So, maybe those terms get nearer to what she was trying to do. Doug Still: [39:25] Yeats had an estate or a house nearby, Thoor Ballylee? Did I pronounce that right? James Pethica: [39:32] You did. He didn't have that until 20 years after his first summer stay at Coole. Doug Still: [39:38] Okay. James Pethica: [39:39] Indeed. He, as I've suggested, was a hard-up man in 1896 who needed the support. Doug Still: [39:48] So, he found some success later on, obviously, and then was able to move there. How did that work? James Pethica: [39:55] This is awkward. Yeats's buying of Thoor Ballylee in 1916. He spent 20 summers, three months of the year at Coole Park. His purchase of the tower was, in many ways, a break from Lady Gregory, an assertion of independence, a wish to escape. Maybe escape is too hard a word, but to give himself some distance from a relationship which in some ways had become constraining, too fixed. He wanted to marry and he did. In 1917, restores the tower, as he says in a poem for my wife, George. So, on the one hand, buying a medieval tower and restoring it three miles or four miles from Lady Gregory’s house is an act of solidarity, an expression of his commitment to the area. But in another way, it's also, “I'm not going to be spending my nights at your house anymore.” Doug Still: [41:01] But that's interesting that it was a little bit of a break. What did the autograph tree mean to Lady Gregory, and have you found reference to it in any of her writings? James Pethica: [41:12] She mentions it in a couple of autobiographical writings, but nothing in her letters. What did it mean to her earlier in her life? Early in her married life, she would ask guests, important people she met, to sign their names on a fan she had. The first fan, it's mainly political figures, people with political power and some writers. Robert Browning is on there. But the writers are more likely to be historians than poets or playwrights. Then she has a second fan. You can already see that her life is shifting by the late 1880s, early 1890s, because she's starting to collect writers more than anybody else. The second fan becomes an Irish fan, overwhelmingly Irish writers. She keeps that fan-- New names keep going in until the late 1920s. So, what's she trying to achieve by having people write their name on a fan and then later carve their name into a tree? That's the question. Doug Still: [42:29] Yes. James Pethica: [42:30] I think it changes. Early on, it's lionizing, people who are famous and maybe being a little starstruck by them. So, early on, lionization, but also a demonstration of her standing. You pull out that fan, “Look at all these important people I know.” Doug Still: [42:48] That's right. James Pethica: [42:49] It raises her own profile. And then the second fan, it's maybe already announcing, signaling on some level, her arrival. “Look, this is the company I'm in, the company I want to be in.” But by the time, it's the autograph tree, I think it's on the one hand, yes, simply a guest book. These are my famous guests, but there's potentially a power play at work here. You get to sign, because you're important enough, you don't. So, it's making a complicated statement. It's also wanting to make of Coole Park and her home itself a monument, I think, which she does quite consciously in some of her last writings, at the point where the estate has already been sold to the forestry department. She knows it's going to be swept away. Yeats is already anticipating that it's going to be a mound of rubble. He says that in a poem before she's even dead. Doug Still: [43:53] How does she feel about that? James Pethica: [43:55] Oh, such a great question. She knew she had accomplished something and is smart enough to recognize that the building itself, the presence of the library, the furniture in the rooms in a sense, doesn't matter. Her last book, Coole, her last prose work, it's a very cunning book. It describes the material actuality of the house in great detail. We get descriptions of the color of spines of books and where things are and where paintings are on the wall. James Joyce famously said, I don't know whether it's apocryphal or not that Dublin could be rebuilt using his books as the template. I think she's thinking in the same vein. The house itself may be gone, but it's preserved, fixed. Not photographically, but fixed nonetheless in some important way by the writings themselves. So, of course, she was sorry that the Gregory connection, which had gone on for so many generations in this place, was going to be broken. But I think she was confident that the cultural, literary, the political accomplishment that she valorized would go on. Doug Still: [45:12] That would be the legacy. James Pethica: [45:14] Yes. Doug Still: [45:14] Cultural legacy, although the tree is one of the few physical things remaining. James Pethica: [45:20] Yes. Though the core outlines-- The garden is there, the place where the house stood, there's a visitor center. It is a monument in its way. Doug Still: [45:34] Yeats was inspired by that landscape, wasn't he? He wrote The Wild Swans at Coole. James Pethica: [45:41] Yes. Well, it figures again and again in his poetry. He says, this is, along with Sligo, the place that I dream of. Doug Still: [45:52] Lady Gregory had a direct role in shaping Coole, the way it looks today. It turns out she was quite the tree planter, as described by Dr. Anna Pilz, an Independent Researcher and fellow at the University of Edinburgh. She has written extensively about Lady Gregory's plays and their transnational production histories. She also noticed Gregory's repeated references to tree planting in her writing. Lady Gregory's unique love of trees, coming up after the break. This is This Old Tree. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [46:49] So, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna Pilz: [46:51] Thank you very much for having me. Doug Still: [46:53] When Sir William Gregory died in 1892, Lady Gregory was suddenly in charge of the Coole estate, including, of course, the grounds. How would you describe the property at that time? Was there a forest? Anna Pilz: [47:07] Yes, there certainly was, shall we say woodland, which is how she often put it. She's always referring to it and talking about the woods of Coole. So, when she entered Widowhood at the age of 40, she took over the management of the estate, which at that point was around about 5,000 acres. As people might know from the poetry of William Butler Yeats, who wrote about In the Seven Woods of Coole, there were seven distinct parts. Doug Still: [47:38] I understand that Lady Gregory was very hands on in terms of decision making and the feel of the park when she took over. Could you talk about that a little bit, and who did she work with to manage the property? Anna Pilz: [47:51] So, as part of managing the estate, there would have been gardeners as well as woodmen who would have worked on the estate. And in a book, she wrote about Coole Park, just titled Coole. She's writing about her companion and woodcutter, who was called John Ferrell. He had worked on the Coole estate for a long period of time, and was very much acquainted with all the domain woods. She's describing how they both go out in their galoshes in the appropriate attire with a fork and looking around and looking after the nurslings and protecting them from animals, such as squirrels. She's ordering seedlings and saplings, and she's planting those, choosing where to get them from, what to plant, and taking great care, and also really looking at that element of, I suppose, sustainability and environmental stewardship that we now think about. Doug Still: [49:01] I understand in her journals, her appreciation for trees comes to the fore. She writes about them a lot. She wrote one article in particular in 1898 called Tree Planting. And you wrote a scholarly article about it, Lady Gregory's Tree Planting a few years ago. What was it about, and what was she trying to accomplish by writing it? Anna Pilz: [49:27] Yeah. So, that quite short article on tree planting appeared in a short magazine, a periodical of the time titled, The Irish Homestead. That was very much a periodical that was connected to the Agricultural Organization Society, so the Cooperative Movement. It was run by a friend of hers called Horace Plunkett. It was really a periodical that looked towards enabling farmers and local agriculture to improve their skills and to advocate for self-help. Doug Still: [50:07] But this wasn't just like a Lady's gardening journal or anything like that. Anna Pilz: [50:10] No, this is practical, applied output in that sense. That's very much the tone of the piece as well. There are different layers to that article where she's on the one hand, acknowledging that if the kind of tree felling continues to go apace, Ireland will be denuded of its woodlands. So, it's very much an interventionist piece that advocates for the need for reafforestation, and then draws on the various benefits of woodland to the nation or to the country, especially within the wider context of nationalism, both cultural and political, that was vibrant at the time, but also thinking of the aesthetics of trees and how pleasant they are in terms of the landscape element of it. She's also talking about how trees are a form of like a monument and a legacy that one leaves behind. There's also a very personal element to it. So, she speaks about her personal relationship, trees and woodlands have to be cared for like friendships. So, she makes that analogy that they have to be treated like friendships and have to be kept in constant repair. She warns her readers that the day will come when they will be but a memory. I suppose that speaks to our current moment of envisioning a replanting at a grand scale. But for her, it's making the argument more on the cultural side, because at the opening of the article, she makes that clear line between trees and kind of language referring to the old Irish language, the Ogham, as a tree alphabet. And so, recalling trees is by way of connecting with that kind of linguistic and older tradition and heritage. Doug Still: [52:09] Do you have a passage that demonstrates what you were describing? Anna Pilz: [52:14] Sure. So, in Tree Planting, Gregory writes, “Ireland, more than other countries, ought to be a country of trees, for the very letters of her alphabet are named after them.” So, there you have that strong connection between trees and letters and language that we now find in artistic expressions, such as Katie Holton's great tree alphabet that she created where, again, you write in trees. Doug Still: [52:43] Lady Gregory was active in translating and promoting traditional Irish folklore. Did trees appear in the folklore that she found? Anna Pilz: [52:52] Yes, definitely. In fact, John Ferrell, so the woodcutter with whom she walked through the woods and worked in the woods is one of those people who would have told stories or have these folklore tales and share them both with Gregory and with Yeats, and they would make their way into their publications. So, John Ferrell, for instance, talks about particular strange visions that come to him in the woods of Coole, where he sees this young girl with long hair close by the lake in the wild part of the woods that's close to Coole Lake He's telling her that he's seen a girl picking nuts with her hair hanging over her shoulders, brown hair. She had a good, clean face and was tall, and nothing on her head, and her dress was no way gaudy, but simple. When she felt me coming, she gathered herself up and was gone, as if the earth had swallowed her. Doug Still: [54:01] Wow. That’s Intense. Anna Pilz: [54:01] That sense of having a vision. Obviously, within folklore, there's the tradition of the banshee or a fairy that lives in the tree and a tradition of fairy trees that are often hawthorn trees that farmers or people who believe in those kind of traditions don't want to cut down, because then you might bring ill on your family or on your farm. Doug Still: [54:29] And so, it got around, people wanted to be invited to sign the tree. Anna Pilz: [54:33] Yes, absolutely. I think it was known as well. So, Seán O'Casey referred to it as the Sacred Tree Of Coole. It's a way of her marking her importance as well of bringing these people together and shaping this cultural movement. So, it's a monument to her legacy. If we're thinking of her how she writes about trees and tree planting as lasting monuments, then the autograph tree definitely is a monument. Doug Still: [55:08] So, what are you working on now? Anna Pilz: [55:11] Well, thanks to Gregory's love for trees and planting, she got me onto a big research project that looks at Irish writing and the ways in which it engages in narratives of deforestation of Ireland's countryside from the 16th century to the 21st century. I look at texts from Edmund Spenser to Sheridan Le Fanu to James Joyce to Elizabeth Bowen, including Lady Gregory. Doug Still: [55:40] Circling back around, all our guests shared how they are inspired by the autograph tree in the Coole Park Nature Reserve. Starting with Dr. Pethica, I put him on the spot with a Lady Gregory question. As a biographer of Lady Gregory and studying her for so long, especially her correspondence, you must feel like you know her. And if you could sit down with her in her walled garden and chat, what would you ask her? Are there any mysteries you'd like to know about? James Pethica: [56:10] I think if a biographer believes they know their subject, they're in great danger. Doug Still: [56:16] [laughs] James Pethica: [56:17] What we have is an archive of material, letters, diaries, other kinds of documents, pictures, photographs, and then other material realia. It's a great scattered, incomplete jigsaw, and one can put together various kinds of pictures from it. I still find Lady Gregory, very impressive, a powerful figure. As Seán O'Casey said, she wasn't rich. She wasn't good looking, she had very relatively few resources, yet this woman managed to foster something as well as create powerfully herself. In the island of a time, how many women writers were able to do that? But what would I ask her? I think I'd probably, at this point, be too terrified. [laughter] Doug Still: [57:15] I'm sure you'd get along. James Pethica: [57:17] There are things, of course, I'd like to ask and know the answer to. But if we sit down with somebody who has thought about their own life as skilled in the art of self-presentation as Lady Gregory was, this is a woman who faced interviewers in the US on her lecture tours every day and was bombarded with questions. She, I think it's fair to say, put up certain face as T. S. Eliot would say, “To meet the faces that she met.” Doug Still: [57:47] Right. James Pethica: [57:49] If I were to be transported back in time and would ask probing personal questions, I think that I would get-- Doug Still: [57:59] You'd get that face. James Pethica: [58:01] I'd get that face. I'd get a straight cricket bat. Doug Still: [58:03] [laughs] James Pethica: [58:04] So, it's a nice illusion to imagine that one could ask the question that would unlock the locked box. Doug Still: [58:13] Right. James Pethica: [58:14] But I don't think you get it. Anna Pilz: [58:17] To me, when I think back of visiting Coole or just moving through these spaces and thinking about the people who have walked along those paths, what thoughts they carried with them, what ideas and projects they were working on at the time and how that kind of environment then made it into the richness of the text that came out of that period, and how much, I suppose that place is foundational to so much thinking that went on that it has that mythical thing around it. But it was also, when it's described as the workshop at Coole, it's something very pragmatic and collaborative and it's a working estate as well. Doug Still: [59:08] And finally, back outside at Coole with Margaux and Jenni. Doug Still: [59:14] Yeats used to just walk through these forests, and I'm told that people would pass by him and he would say nothing. He was deep in his own thoughts. Margaux Pierrel: [59:24] Yeah, that's the possibility. You would pass by me nowadays and I would probably be lost in my thoughts as well. Doug Still: [59:30] [laughs] So, you have some similarities with W. B. Yeats? Margaux Pierrel: [59:34] Yeah. When you are in such a spectacular nature reserve or woodland, you want to enjoy it fully. You want to listen to the birds and the animals rustling the branches. You want to listen to the river and the Turlock making this water sounds. You really want to be in it. Jenni McGuire: [59:54] When I first started working here, I was slightly oblivious of its literary importance, I will admit. I was here for the nature and love of nature over time and with people's responses to the tree and delving more into the history of it. I'm also awe inspired, both for the tree's natural beauty. But yeah, the history that surrounds it, all the people that have been here. When you're standing under this tree-- If you cast your mind back, if you can just visualize the kind of people who would have been coming here. Doug Still: [01:00:33] That’s what I'm doing right now. Jenni McGuire: [01:00:34] Yeah, it is. It takes your breath away. I'm awe inspired. [Theme music] Doug Still: [01:00:43] I won't soon forget the autograph tree and its caretaker, Lady Gregory. The copper beech towering in her garden is stunning in its own right, and its legend draws people to it in reverence to a period of cultural importance and national pride. To me, the story of the autograph tree is wonderfully and uniquely Irish. I'd like to thank Jenni McGuire and Margaux Pierrel for sharing their knowledge on the show, and also Becky Teasdale and Niall O'Reilly at Coole for their help, kindness, and warm hospitality. I'd also like to thank James Pethica and Anna Pilz for their brilliant interviews and research involving Lady Gregory. I'd like to thank you tree lovers for listening to the show once again. You can find photos and more information about the autograph tree on Facebook, Instagram, and the website, thisoldtree.show. [song - Cailleach an Airgid] Doug Still: [01:01:45] By the way, this incredible music you've been listening to is a traditional piece called Cailleach an Airgid, which translates from Gaelic as The Hag with the Money. Cailleach is associated with the creation of landscape and also the weather. It was performed by Sonic Strings, a local youth ensemble from Coole Music and Arts in Gort. The arrangement was by Katharina Baker and the soloist was Lillian Owens. So haunting and beautiful. There's an incredible video of Sonic Strings performing it on a rocky outcrop in the Aran Islands filmed with use of a drone. It's awesome. Check it out on YouTube. Thank you so much for sharing your music. You've been listening to This Old Tree. See you next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Trees in Song: Season 1 Finale (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 19 Published Sept. 8, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] I'm Doug Still, and I've got a lot of fun planned for you today as we reflect back on some of the people we met during the first 18 episodes and the tree stories they shared. I'm going to be playing songs about trees, at least some songs that I like. As a child of the 1970s, I'll definitely be showing my age by some of my selections. But it turns out that there are certain themes that surround old trees and their stories that pop up again and again in songs, and in our collective imagination. In addition, you are going to get to meet Dee Lee, the person who wrote and sang our theme song. Sit back and enjoy this music filled episode of This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [00:46] This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. Wonder what you’d say if you could talk to me About what it’s like to be this old tree. Doug Still: [01:05] Since our very first episode about the Betsy Williams Sycamore, old trees have been a source of comfort and shelter to people in need in our stories. Think of the pioneers taking refuge under the birthing tree in Central Tennessee on their way westward; or, Robin Hood's men hiding from the authorities in Sherwood Forest beneath what's now known as the major oak; or the escape from the hot Florida sun provided by the shade of the Edison Banyan tree. Trees were pivotal within our evolution. Our prehistoric ancestors lived in trees which provided protection from predators. Comfort and shelter was central in the very last episode, Texas Shade, The Founder's Oak. Here's what guest, Kelly Eby, had to say. Audio Clip Kelly Eby: [01:51] The tree is a little less than 50ft tall and has 100-foot-wide canopy spanning in different directions. It just creates like a cover, a canopy, a roof where you feel like you are secure under the shelter of that tree with two main branches that come out. Doug: [02:17] Here's a great song by Van Morrison called The Redwood Tree, which is about a boy who lost his dog, which his father helped him search for. I think the redwood in this song is a lovely metaphor for both physical and emotional protection. Van Morrison: [02:33] Boy and his dog Went out looking for the rainbow You know what did they learn Since that very day Walking by the river And running like a blue streak Through the fields of streams and meadows Laughing all the way Oh redwood tree Please let us under When we were young we used to go Under the redwood tree And it smells like rain Maybe even thunder Won't you keep us from all harm Wonderful redwood tree And a boy and his father Went out, went out looking for the lost dog You know what oh haven't they learned Since they did that together They did not bring him back, he already had departed But look at everything they have learned Since that, since that very day Oh redwood tree Please let us under When we were young we used to go Under the redwood tree And it smells like rain. maybe even thunder Won't you keep us from all harm Wonderful redwood tree. Da-da, da-da-da da, da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da Du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du Du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du, du-du-du-du-du-du, du-du-du-du Da-da, da-da-da da, da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da. Doug Still: [05:17] A heritage tree is a living connection to the past. But to add to that, there can be very strong cultural associations as well. Trees can be symbols of bigger ideas, such as progress, art, or religion. They can provide affirmation of cultural identity. The Imperial Pine was a gift from Japan to the US that represented a peace offering decades after World War II. The elm tree in Concord, Massachusetts, that Henry David Thoreau wrote about symbolized to him the higher ideals of the past, as well as a burgeoning sense of pride in his young nation. In our show about the major oak of Sherwood Forest, guest Richard Townsley, known some days as the Sheriff of Nottingham, feels that visiting the 1,100-year-old oak tree associated with Robin Hood continues to be a cultural rite of passage. Audio Clip Richard Townslee: [06:11] It's just absolutely part of my heritage. It's part of my personal upbringing. As I say, I've got two granddaughters. One is three, the other is not yet one, and I'm looking forward to bringing the second one here. I think they're not a Townley until they've been into Sherwood, until they've dressed up as Robin Hood and they've run around and we've had a picnic. So, I'm very looking forward. Her name's Edith and she lives in Bath. We were discussing her being christened. She's going to be christened in a church in Bath. But I think for me, the christening will be when we bring her to the forest and introduce to the major oak. So, it's part of my family and my personal heritage. Doug Still: [06:50] I'm a big fan of the Australian band, Crowded House. The song I'm about to play is about the memory of a lost relationship that began in England, but transplanted to Australia. It's called English Trees. Crowded House [07:15] English trees in my garden. We planted seeds in a faraway land In between the palms and the succulent grove They lose their leaves in the winter Mark the seasons for him and for her Once upon a time in the fallen snow Up against the sky made a silhouette show England cries and she plays for him The chords entwined like a requiem Although it's springtime and color is new In Regent's Park I will mourn for you And I must be wise somehow 'Cause my heart's been broken down It's so far to fall And so hard to climb Nothing's sadder, I know Than the passing of time Won't forget me You won't forget me English trees in my garden Summer's missed you, my darling Yet all your crimes are forgiven Yet all your crimes are forgiven And I must be wise somehow You won't forget me You won't forget me And England cries, oh There's English trees in my garden Doug Still: [10:41] Stories about trees sometimes center around hope rising above terrible adversity. The first 9/11 survivor trees were symbols of resilience after that unthinkable act of terrorism that shook New York City, Washington, D.C., and the country. Their replanting and survival was a gesture to the future and better times. We found similar themes in the tale of the birthing tree, and also The Founder's Oak. In our episode, Harlem's Tree of Hope, about a street tree that became a good luck charm to black performers in the 1920s looking for their big break. Abra Lee beautifully expressed that the Harlem community reclaimed the symbolism around trees while creating their own modern, hopeful culture. Audio Clip Abra Lee: [11:28] The connection to the tree is certainly ancestral, it's communal. I think of trees of black people gathering under these mighty oak trees in the south that are along the river and having baptism. I think about people having full on church up under these trees. I think about the first reading of the Emancipation Proclamation stating that the Civil War was over and that slavery was no longer legal in the United States happens under a tree. So, that is where community happens for many black people. Tuskegee, one of the greatest universities in the United States, certainly the historic HBCU, historically black college university, is built on a former plantation covered in trees at that time. So, trees are, I think about them almost like you think about the grand ceilings of these churches all across the world. That's what that canopy is to people, to black people. These places where we can gather, and feel free, and be our unapologetic selves, and speak in the language that we want to speak and the street slang-- This is where we can create music, this is where we can exchange words and ideas. So, that is why that was important to that community. And honestly, I still would argue to this day. Doug Still: [12:53] Listen to this lovely song by Louis Armstrong with Gordon Jenkins and His Orchestra, Trees. It is Joyce Kilmer's poem of the same name, put to music. Louis Armstrong: [13:30] I think that I shall never see A poem as lovely as a tree A tree whose hungry mouth is pressed Against the earth's sweet flowing breast O, a tree that looks at God all day And lifts her leafy arms to pray A tree that may in summer wear Yeah, a nest of robins in her hair Upon whose bosom snow has lain Who intimately lives with rain [Incomprehensible] Poems are made by fools like me But only God can make a tree Doug Still: [16:04] When we come back from a break, I'll continue our look back with Season 1 guests and bring you more songs about trees. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [theme music] Doug Still: [16:30] Standing up against the big guy always makes a great story. Whether it's the king's henchmen in the Charter Oak tale, the Sheriff of Nottingham in the major oak of Sherwood Forest, or the profit seeking corporations featured in the Bronte Oak or in Luna, A Redwoods Survival tale. It turns out the story about Luna the Redwood was our most popular episode. Who can resist hearing about a two-year tree sit and its aftermath? Here's Stuart Moskowitz, the lead monitor of The Luna Covenant, struck with the logging company. Audio clip Stuart Moskowitz: [17:05] That was New Year's Day 1997. And yes, that's what-- They continued to log up on that hillside in the vicinity of the mudslide, and that's what attracted Earth First to target that hillside for a tree sit. And Luna was the largest tree. And so, different activists, they rotated sitting in Luna for several months in early 1997. It was towards the end of 1997 when Julia Butterfly Hill, a young woman who was recovering from an automobile accident, 23 years old, and looking for something to change her. She knew that she felt a calling to come out to do something in the redwood forests. The platform that was put 180ft up in Luna and installed during the dark of night, which is where the name Luna came from, meaning, moon, because that platform was built in the moonlight. Julia volunteered to take a turn up at the top of Luna. She had never climbed a tree before, but they showed her how to climb and she got herself up to the top. I think what made Julia different from the other tree sitters is that she is articulate and could speak to the cause well. And once she started talking and people started listening, she stayed. Doug Still: [18:44] One song that speaks to me about California and the questioning of tree loss is Big Yellow Taxi by Joni Mitchell. Love this song. Joni Mitchell: [19:03] They paved paradise, put up a parking lot With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swingin' hot spot Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They took all the trees put 'em in a tree museum And they charged the people a dollar an' a half just to see 'em Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop Hey farmer, farmer put away that DDT now Give me spots on my apples, but leave me the birds and the bees Please Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop, ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop Late last night I heard the screen door slam And a big yellow taxi took away my old man Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop I said don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They paved paradise, put up a parking lot Ooh, bop-bop-bop-bop They paved paradise Put up a parking lot [laughs] Doug Still: [21:07] Someone has to speak for the trees. How about the 87-year-old retired schoolteacher in Oakville, Ontario who spoke at regional council to save the 200 plus year old Bronte Oak tree from a road widening project? Her advocacy turned the tide of public perception and saved the tree, as told by guest in Oakville Councilor, Alan Elgar. Audio Clip Alan Elgar: [21:30] But you also have an 87-year-old woman named Joyce Burnell who came and spoke at the region and very colorful speech she gave to the region. She was the one that convinced the counselors. I sent out something about the oak tree, and she responded back to me and said, "What you're trying to do? I don't know you, but what you're trying to do, I really like and I like what you're trying to do." She had been a high teacher all of her life, a schoolteacher, and she said, "I'll do that," and she did. It was unbelievably beautiful. When she spoke, who was going to argue with an 87-year-old woman that was so passionate? She broke into a song singing, God, save our great oak tree and everything, that we have to save this tree. It's an important tree. It's historic. There's hardly any left in Oakville at all. They've all been cut down for massive ship years and years ago. It was here. It was a seedling in 1760. There is no way this tree should be cut. We have to save it. Doug Still: [22:43] The King of Trees by Cat Stevens, now Yusuf Islam, is about the exact same thing - losing a noble tree to a road project. Cat Stevens: [24:02] He was the king of trees Keeper of the leaves, A deep green guard of young Love-stained memory, We used to meet by him Far from the hustling town I loved you, Now they've come to cut you down... down He was the guardian of Days we held the same, Beneath the shade he gave Shelter from the rain, Oh Lord how it's empty now With nothing save the breeze I loved you, Now they've come to burn the leaves Don't burn the leaves And if my mind breaks up in all So many ways, I know the meaning of the words "I love you", And if my body falls inside An early grave, The forest and the evergreens Are coming to take me back, So slowly As I roll down the track The forest and the evergreen Are coming to take me back, The forest and the evergreen Are coming to take me back, Please take me back! He was the king of trees Keeper of the glades, The way he lightened my life Makes me so amazed, We used to meet by him Many years ago I loved you, Now they've to lay the road-oh-oh, Oh! Don't lay the road Doug Still: [27:42] For some people, a tree can bring back memories of a time in life when inner thoughts were important and growth happened. Maybe this occurred while sitting below in the shade or better yet, climbing up into its branches. We've had a series of tree story shorts submitted by listeners, which we're still accepting, by the way. If you feel the inspiration, here's a bit of one tree story short, submitted by author, Gil Reavill. Audio Clip Gil Reavill: [28:08] Early on, I was able to scramble into every area of the tree, into both of the asymmetrical branch networks. At the top of one was a thick, horizontal crook that served as a hammock. I could lounge there, close to the sky, largely invisible from Earthbound humans. As a kid, I was an inveterate reader. So, there are pictures of me in my apple tree aerie engrossed in a book. I remember being called down to the dinner table, but leaving books up there, so I could get to them later. But I think this solitary backyard apple tree represented a refuge, providing vital and necessary aid to my early physical development, yeah, but also helping to foster my imagination. The view from up there provided perspective. My ground level problems and preoccupations appeared puny. I could dream freely. Doug Still: [29:09] One of my favorites all time songs is about inner turmoil while watching others get to freely climb the trees. This is Boys in the Trees by Carly Simon. So beautiful. And oh yeah, that's James Taylor on guitar. Carly Simon: [29:45] I'm home again in my old narrow bed Where I grew tall and my feet hung over the end The low beam room with the window looking out On the soft summer garden Where the boys grew in the trees Here I grew guilty And no one was at fault Frightened by the power in every innocent thought And the silent understanding passing down From daughter to daughter Let the boys grow in the trees Do you go to them or do you let them come to you? Do you stand in back afraid that you'll intrude? Deny yourself and hope someone will see And live like a flower While the boys grow in the trees Last night I slept in sheets the color of fire Tonight I lie alone again and curse my own desire Sentenced first to burn and then to freeze And watch by the window Where the boys grew in the trees Doug Still: [32:34] One thing everyone can relate to is that trees are a place to meet. They serve as neighborhood landmarks for locals or council trees for First Nation tribes. One of our episodes focused on the birthing tree, a huge white oak with a spreading canopy in McMinnville, Tennessee. Guest, Tom Simpson, explains. Audio Clip Tom Simpson: [32:55] Well, the way the story is, is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky trail, the other one was called the Old Walton trail, which was in Middle Tennessee, this tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under the birthing tree. And so, as settlers would move down the trail, going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. And so, parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. And as they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees, hence the name birthing tree. Doug Still: [33:46] Here's a fun song about meeting at a tree, in this case, for love. This is The Mango Tree by the Zac Brown Band featuring Sara Bareilles. Zac Brown Band ft. Sara Bareilles: [34:04] Waiting for the sunlight to come rising from the sea We lay undercover Shaded by the mango tree We could stay forever Never leave this paradise Swaying in the ocean breeze to the rhythm of the tide Tomorrow, oh tomorrow Take your time, 'cause we got Time to borrow I love you Say that you love me too And we can turn the whole world upside down Just us two Nobody else will do 'Cause baby, you're the only one for me Underneath the mango tree Drifting like the ocean Daydreams dancing in the wind Sand is sticking to our bodies Just like sugar on our skin The day is getting older Oh, but we are still so young Higher than the stars above And faded like the sun Tomorrow, oh tomorrow Take your time, 'cause we got Time to borrow I love you Say that you love me too And we can turn The whole world upside down Just us two Nobody else will do It's me and you 'Cause baby, you're The only one for me Oh, you're so sweet Underneath the mango tree I love you I know you do Say that you love me too I love you too We can turn The whole world upside down Ah, just us two It's me and you Nobody else will do Baby, you're You're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Baby, you're the only one for me Underneath the mango tree Doug Still: [37:36] Speaking of songs about trees, you know our theme song? Yeah, that's the one. Well, it was written and sung by a fellow arborist in Illinois named Dee Lee. After the break, we're going to meet him and find out what makes him tick. Coming up on This Old Tree. Doug Still [38:06] Dee, how are you? Dee Lee : [38:08] I am terrific. Doug Still: [38:10] Thanks so much for joining the show. Dee Lee: [38:12] My pleasure. My pleasure, indeed. It's been a great joy to watch your journey and it's just wonderful to tune in. So, I'm a big fan. Doug Still: [38:24] People tell me all the time, they love your song, This Old Tree, which you've allowed to be our theme song. When it comes on at the beginning, some people tell me, they like to sing along. Dee Lee: [38:37] Oh, no kidding. [laughter] Ah, that's a wee bit for me heart. Doug Still: [38:42] Yeah. [laughs] So, I thought it would be great for listeners to get to know you a little bit. I've introduced you on the show as an arborist and a songwriter. Which comes first? Dee Lee: [38:53] [chuckles] Songwriter, actually, came first. Doug Still: [38:58] Really? Dee Lee: [39:01] It actually was my next-door neighbors, this wonderful family called The Barrys. And they had four or five children, all of them musical, mother and father were musical. Their whole family between them. I don't know how many instruments they knew how to play. Doug Still: [39:23] This is when you were a kid? Dee Lee: [39:24] Yes. We lived right next door to them. As a matter of fact, the boy whose age was closest to mine was named Lee Barry. And they were thinking of naming me Barry Lee because I was one year younger than him. [laughter] They were wonderful harmonists. They could harmonize. They could play. Doug Still: [39:47] Really, a whole family. Like the Carter family or something. Dee Lee: [39:50] Yeah. They would do a Mama's & a Papa's with all the harmonies and the guitars. I remember one night hearing that, and I was just thunderstruck. I knew I had to learn how to do that. Doug Still: [40:03] Wow. And so, you learned guitar as a boy? Dee Lee: [40:08] Yeah. My cousins also were guitarists, and we would vacation with them. One of them brought a guitar up to the vacation spot, a little place across Lake Michigan, and they made the mistake of teaching me one chord. [laughs] Doug Still: [40:28] Oh, yeah. That first one is… I play guitar. Dee Lee: [40:32] Yes. Doug Still: [40:34] Amateur. But there's something about that first chord, and you're like, "I made that sound." Dee Lee: [40:40] Yes. It goes right into your chest. Oh, boy, they finally had to send me upstairs because [laughs] I was just playing an E and an E minor all night. Doug Still: [40:51] Yeah. You don't have to have a song. Just play some chords, and then you figure out how to tie them together. Dee Lee: [40:59] That's right. You let it come to you. Doug Still: [41:02] You're a finger picker, which I try to do, but it's pretty inconsistent. Did you learn the finger picking technique when you were a kid also? Dee Lee: [41:15] I'm not too sure when I started finger picking, but I think it was after hearing John Prine with his Travis Picking. I think I figured out how to do it. And then once I did that, it was just little experiments on moving things around, and I think it went off from there. Doug Still: [41:36] Right. How to move your thumb? Dee Lee: [41:39] Yeah. Doug Still: [41:40] So, then you needed a day job and you became an arborist? Dee Lee: [41:44] [laughs] Well, that came generations ago. My grandfather was a well-known nursery man in the area, Ralph Sinisvet.. Matter of fact, he has six or seven patents on plants which I get to see in my rounds as an arborist. I see something he created and hello, grandpa. [laughs] Doug Still: [42:07] Wow. So, you're in Illinois. Dee Lee: [42:10] Yes. Doug Still: [42:11] What's the name of the nursery? Dee lee: [42:13] Ralph Sinsvet. Doug Still: [42:16] Sinsivet. Dee Lee: [42:17] Yeah. Doug Still: [42:18] What were some of the cultivars they developed? Dee Lee: [42:20] Well, he had a wonderful Cornus mas. I can't remember the name of it. He had two varieties of Viburnum dentatum. I think one was Chicago Jazz. And I think another one might have been lustre. But he bred them out, so that they were nicely thick leaves and could put up with Chicago winters. And then he had locust. I don't think it was used much. I don't think it caught on much. It was the Green Glory locust. And then he had the most successful one, I think, was his low-grow-Sumac or grow-low, one of those two. And I see that everywhere. Doug Still: [43:04] Is that along highways and stuff? Dee lee: [43:07] Yeah, it's a great ground cover. It's woody. So, it can catch papers and things like Tony Aster's, [laughs] but it's beautiful. I see it a lot in islands where it just covers up the island and the weeds say, "No, I'm going somewhere else." [laughs] Doug Still: [43:26] So, trees were in your DNA early on as well? Dee Lee: [43:29] Yes. And then my father, he went to Northwestern for literature on the G.I. Bill, and then he ended up as the head arborist-- He worked for my grandfather, and he married the boss's daughter, so that was more tree stuff. And then as soon as I was allowed to, I worked in the Christmas tree lot, selling Christmas trees, and loading flowers and plants for clients in the retail shop. And then when I was old enough, I got up in the trees and I just loved it. Doug Still: [44:13] Yeah. So, you're a climber. I know that, because there's a picture of you way up in the canopy of a tree on a branch with your guitar. I can't see if you've got a harness on or anything like that, but anyway, you got the shot. Dee Lee: [44:27] Yes, I did have a harness. My one claim to fame was in 1979, I was the all-around co-champion for the arborist competitions in Illinois for the Midwestern states. Doug Still: [44:45] There was a climbing competition. Dee Lee: [44:47] Yeah, they have them every year. They have regions, and then the best get to go, and be champions of the world, I guess, the universe. Doug Still: [44:58] Congratulations. What year was that? Dee Lee: [45:00] 1979. Doug Still: [45:01] 1979. Fantastic. We had the ISA International Climbing Competition here in Providence in 2009. I remember that. It was lots of fun to watch. The climbers would go up and grab flags out of the tree, and there was an aerial rescue competition, all kinds of things. Dee Lee: [45:24] That's exactly what it was. Although back in my day, there wasn't an aerial rescue. I'm glad they added that. But it was the same thing where you had to go touch the bell on five flags, and then you had to get down, and they timed you. Then there was a log drop competition and a rope throw and a chainsaw event. Doug Still: [45:45] Wow. You're very talented. Dee Lee: [45:48] Well, like I said, it's genetic, I guess. Doug Still: [45:51] [laughs] Back to songwriting or actually, let's get to songwriting. What was the first song you ever wrote? Dee Lee: [46:01] Well, it was very complicated. I think it was 2 words and 2 chords, and nobody wanted to hear it. [laughter] Doug Still: [46:12] Got to start somewhere. Dee Lee: [46:13] Exactly. And I think there was another one I wrote while I was sitting under the piano. One of my sisters was practicing or something, and I thought of something there. And then my grandmother, who was a music teacher, she was a Burnham, actually, related to Daniel Burnham. And my mother thought, "Well, he has a love of music. Let's send him over to grandma for a music lesson or two." I was kind of high energy. Grandma got through one lesson with me, and that was the lessons that I had. Doug Still: [46:50] [chuckles] That was it. Dee Lee: [46:51] That was it. Doug Still: [46:52] That was enough. Dee Lee: [46:53] Yeah. Doug Still: [46:53] [laughs] So, then you became self-taught? Dee Lee: [46:57] Yeah, because I immediately wanted to take whatever it was she showed me and make a song out of it. I've always had melodies that just seem to want to come out and just following my nose through them and then trying to learn the chords that support them. I should have spent more time learning other people's beautiful music, but the drive for me has always been to get a guitar in my hand, and I just start tinkering, and playing around with it. Doug Still: [47:28] That's wonderful. This song is about a tree, but what other kinds of things do you write about? Dee Lee: [47:34] Well, I have some inspirational, you would call it, general uplifting spiritual. I think I have about 30 of those and lots of nature things. Trees seem to get into most of my songs. [laughs] Doug Still: [47:52] I was going to ask you, are there any other songs about trees? So, there are quite a few of them, huh? Dee Lee: [47:57] Well, there's some that have nature and trees in them. I've got three that are specifically now about trees. I have this old tree one called The Roots, which is just a simple one to help people understand roots a little better. And then there's one called Amber. I always fell in love with the idea that amber was actually a product of a tree that is millions of years old. So, that was sort of romantic. So, I wrote one about that too. Doug Still: [48:28] Yeah. Could you play a few bars? Dee Lee: [48:30] Sure. Doug Still: [48:32] I was hoping you'd say that. Dee Lee: [48:33] [laughs] Sure, I'll give it a try. I haven't played this one in a while, so you'll have to forgive me if it's rusty. I'll tell you what, how about I play the Roots? That's a fun one. It's kind of a choppy, fun song. It has a precipitation [laughs] where it's a call and response where I go, "It's the roots," and people go, "It's the roots." Anyway, it's very fun to play live. Doug Still: [49:05] Okay. Dee Lee: [49:05] All right. We'll try here. Here we go. This is called The Roots. Doug Still: [49:09] I'm interjecting here. The live recording technology didn't go so well. So, here's another live recording of the song, It's the Roots that Dee sent me afterward. Dee Lee: [49:21] There's buried treasure. Under every tree Let's dig it up together. Solve this mystery Here you go. It's the roots Unison: [49:37] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:38] Slurping up the water, it's the roots Unison: [49:41] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:42] [unintelligible [00:49:42] Unison: [49:44] It's the roots Dee Lee: [49:46] Save it for later, it's the roots Doug Still: [49:57] Well, the song, This Old Tree, is about a tree that has been a witness to history. What inspired you? Dee Lee: [50:05] Yes, I just wanted to start writing songs about trees. I had this vision of a-- It might have been New England or it might have been an imaginary cove on Lake Michigan, where there was a small medieval town that grew up around this tree that was in the center of the town. It was big enough that even the boats coming in from offshore could see the top of it and used it as a reference point, and I just tried to put that into a song. Doug Still: [50:46] That's interesting. Yeah, there's a line in the song about boats. Dee Lee: [50:50] Yeah. That sounds what it is. Doug Still: [50:51] I didn't know quite what that meant, if it was along the sea coast or something. Dee Lee: [50:56] Yes, that's exactly right. It was a sentinel that they could see the top of its foliage from out far enough that they could use it as a bearing. Doug Still: [51:08] That's great. One thing I like about the song is, when it gets to maybe after the third verse, the chorus comes in again and you just raise the volume a little bit. I think that's really a moving part of the song. Dee Lee: [51:25] Oh, thank you. How did you like the bridge? Doug Still: [51:29] Yeah, it gets a little dark almost. Dee Lee: [51:31] It does, doesn't it? Doug Still: [51:32] Into a minor key? No. Dee Lee: [51:33] Yeah, it feels minor to me. Doug Still: [51:36] A lot of minor chords. Dee Lee: [51:37] Yeah. Doug Still: [51:38] Yeah. I'm playing songs that mention trees today on this episode. Do you have a favorite song about a tree or a forest, perhaps? Dee Lee: [51:50] No, not really. Not one that comes to mind. But I'm excited to hear what you're going to put in. Doug Still: [51:56] [laughs] If someone wishes to discover more of your music and maybe download some of your music, where should they go? Dee Lee: [52:05] Okay. You can download all of it for free. All you have to do is leave me an email and you won't get any spam, because I hardly ever send anything out. [chuckles] But it's deeleetree.com, and that's six Es. So, it's deeleetree.com. Doug Still: [52:25] And they can download for free? Dee Lee: [52:26] Absolutely. I'm tickled pink if anyone goes and takes a look. I don't have all my music there, but I have enough of it, so you can browse around and enjoy yourself. Doug Still: [52:39] Fantastic. Well, from the moment I met you on the phone a year and a half ago, you've been just so friendly and charming, and we instantly became buddies. I love the song, and it's been an honor to have it on the show every week, and it inspires me to keep going. Dee Lee: [52:59] Well, it's been my utter pleasure, and I'm so grateful that you found it. I think I always hope that my music goes somewhere where it can be useful and people can enjoy it. I'm just really grateful that you found a place for it on your wonderful podcast. Doug Still: [53:18] Thank you very much for coming on the show. And now, let's listen to the song in its entirety. I can't think of a better way to end Season 1. And just before we do, I'd like to thank you, tree lovers, for joining me on this journey this past year. I'm tremendously grateful that you listen. And the comments you send either via email or Facebook or Instagram are greatly appreciated too. Thanks to everyone who has contributed and supported the show in one way or another. Season 2 is going to be even better. I can't wait to share some of the ideas and the tree stories that are in the works. I'm Doug Still, and without further ado, here's Dee Lee singing what's become the theme song to This Old Tree. Dee Lee: [54:19] This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries Wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me About what it's like to be this old tree Shadow and shade, kids on the corner selling lemonade Send them down a cool breeze a sweet cascade Tailor made by this old tree In 1600 you were just a seed, reaching for the sky, high Waiting for a chance to take your place in the warm sunshine Here I go, high above the place were the people grow Leave my troubles on the ground far below So I can get to know this old tree Summer sparkle in your leaves, autumn winds will bring release Winter calls for you to sleep, Spring returns in green Above the town, ships on the water spy your royal crown Sentinel of green two points off starboard bow Homeward bound to this old tree In 1800 you felt the thunder roll, and lighting split the sky, high Though the fire raged in the little town below you managed to survive With this scar upon your side This old tree, reach out touch a living history Beneath my hands an ancient mystery How small I am by this old tree How small I am by this old tree [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Texas Shade: The Founders’ Oak (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 18 Published August 3, 2023 Emily: [00:02] So, Kelly, we're out here at Landa Park under The Founders' Oak. Tell me, what do you feel, what do you see, what do you hear while we're standing underneath this big guy? Kelly: [00:14] Just an amazing oak tree. Just a specimen almost beyond words. It almost looks like an alien sea creature coming up out of the Earth, spawned by the river with four humongous branches that rise up and create almost like a cathedral over our heads and shaggy, thick bark. Just a tree that's so tough that it stands the endurance of time. Doug: [00:50] The Founders' Oak of New Braunfels, Texas. That was an onsite description of it by Kelly Eby, the former Urban Forester of New Braunfels, along with Emily King, the city forester in nearby Austin. Emily is cohosting today as I've invited her to be the Texas correspondent for our show. There's so much to learn about this 300-year-old live oak, which has given shelter to a Spanish mission, a German prince who brought thousands of settlers, old Texas families that date back to the Alamo and the Comanche nation. Come along as Emily and I learn why this tree has been so important to so many different people for so long, especially now. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [Song - Jerry Irby] Doug: [02:22] So, Emily, I'm so happy to have you on This Old Tree. Welcome. Emily: [02:27] Thank you, Doug. Good to be here. Doug: [02:29] We've been corresponding about trees and the show. I said I've always wanted to do a show about a tree in Texas. Emily: [02:39] This is true. I did send you a fan girl email. And lucky me, you replied and were interested [giggles] in doing a show on a Texas tree. Yes. Doug: [02:50] [laughs] Well, I've learned so much in the interim. I've learned that trees are very, very important in Texas, and you've been involved in that tree world for quite a while as City Forester in Austin. Is that your title? Emily: [03:05] Yeah, I'm Austin's Urban Forester. And yes, we love our trees in Texas, and we've got some really neat resources online to help folks explore what we have, where they are, and pictures of them, and what their stories are. Doug: [03:22] One of them is the Famous Trees of Texas, which you pointed me to. Who's that run by? Emily: [03:29] The Texas A&M Forest Service hosts this website, and they keep it up to date. Doug: [03:35] It was fascinating. I got lost in all of the stories, clicking back and forth and looking at the trees. A lot of work has gone into recognizing historic trees all around the state. Emily: [03:48] Yeah, the state agency also maintains our big tree registry as well. So, if you like trees that are just big and might not have a documented story, there is something for that too. Doug: [04:00] We'll include that website address in the show notes. The Founders' Oak in New Braunfels caught my attention because of its unusual association with a German prince: Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels, of all people. So seemingly strange, right? Emily: [04:16] Well, to me, it's fun that jumps out for you. There's a lot of small German communities in and around Texas. So, I find it a little bit less surprising, but still very interesting. Doug: [04:30] But a couple questions came up that we decided to delve into together. Who were the founders suggested by The Founders' Oak, and what are their stories? Were their stories unique, or do they somehow capture the essence of the founding of Texas itself? Emily: [04:47] Yeah. Texas is pretty proud of its history. We have a whole theme park called Six Flags Over Texas that speaks to all the different flags that have flown over this state. And as we're going to learn more, the German history-- there was not a German flag flown here. There's also quite a bit of Native American history. Obviously, no flags associated with that either. So, there's layers upon layers of cultures that have inhabited this area where this oak resides. Doug: [05:22] So, we both interviewed a couple different people. And to start off, I had a conversation with Tim Barker, a longtime member of the New Braunfels community, who had a lot to share about the city's founding and the cherished oak tree that stood witness to it all. [music] Doug: [05:42] Hi, Tim. Welcome to the show. Tim: [05:44] Thank you. Nice to meet you. Doug: [05:46] Nice to meet you as well. I love your Texas shirt that you've got on. Tim: [05:51] Hey, how about that for the flag of Texas, huh? Doug: [05:54] [laughs] I love it. Tim: [05:56] Yeah. Texas are kind of proud. Doug: [05:59] You were telling me that you live right across the street from Landa Park and The Founders' Oak. Is that correct? Tim: [06:05] Yes. We're so blessed. I didn't realize that when I bought this property, I inherited that whole park, which means responsibility for taking care of it. Doug: [06:16] Yeah. Tim: [06:17] We have a tremendous parks department, but there's always things that need to be done, and they need to be reminded about the walls and the trimming and whatever. But they're wonderful people to work with. We've been here almost 33 years now. So, it's gotten better and better. Doug: [06:34] Wow. Isn't it an historic house? Tim: [06:37] Yeah, the house was built in 1846, and it's called a rubble construction. Doug: [06:45] Wasn't New Braunfels founded right about that time? Tim: [06:49] New Braunfels was founded essentially in 1845. So, it's a very close time frame. Doug: [06:55] Yeah. So, it was built the year after. Tim: [06:57] Yeah. right. Yeah. And the first owner's name was George [unintelligible [00:07:03], and he became one of the first mayors. Doug: [07:08] A German yeah, we're going to get into that. So, can you see The Founders' Oak from your house? Tim: [07:13] There are so many trees in this hilltop property, and in the Landa Park that I cannot do a direct sight. We're on the side of a hill. So, if I walk down to the road and look across, I can see it from the road. But it's just so many trees. It's not a direct sight. Doug: [07:33] Right. I bet at one point you could see the oak. Tim: [07:36] Main tree here we have is the Texas live oak. So, they really don't become dormant. They're pretty much all green all year round until May. March, when they drop their leaves. So, that's the main type of tree between here and The Founders' Oak, which is a live oak tree also. Structurally, it's very pretty. And to me, I think of it like a big chandelier, and that it's so tall. Sometimes, when the tree gets older, they don't have as many leaves, but they have a lot of branches. So, you see these protruding things that go out. Doug: [08:11] That's great. I've never heard a tree described as a chandelier. So, it's like an upside-down chandelier. Tim: [08:17] Yeah, I guess, you say upside down. Anyhow where its location, it protrudes over such an area, so you can look up and see the big branches that are all around. Doug: [08:27] Oh, I see. And then the branches dangle down like a chandelier. Tim: [08:31] Chandelier. The crystals on a chandelier. Doug: [08:33] Right. That's beautiful. How far back does your family go? Tim: [08:38] I'm a 6th generation. And my great, great, great grandfather fought for Texas independence from Mexico at the Battle of San Jacinto. And so, that battle followed the battle at the Alamo in which Texas got whipped there. And so, that inspired a lot of so. His involvement was to take care of the mules and horses that are involved in supporting the military. Doug: [09:07] Tim explained that New Braunfels has always been all about the springs. The Founders' Oak has had all the advantages. Tim: [09:16] From my garden, I can see the big springs that come out from the mountainside and make a big turn and go into a lake, because all Landa Park is encircled in water. The water is so clear. Right now, we don't have enough of it, but it's so clear. Doug: [09:36] You're not a stranger to drought. Tim: [09:39] No, but I still don't like it. [laughter] Doug: [09:43] Right. Tim: [09:43] Especially being a gardener and seeing things suffer, that's the hard part. Doug: [09:48] What's your first memory of The Founders' Oak? Tim: [09:52] Well, when the six families would get together and come to Braunfels and everybody brought their fried chicken, we set up a table by, there's a little pool here, it's called the Kitty Waiting pool. I guess, we have a very large spring fed pool, which is one of the largest in Texas. Thanks to all spring fed, but it's just all the greenery. Doug: [10:18] You're so lucky you have that spring. Tim: [10:21] This is really the start of, what they call, the hill country. There's an old joke about why didn't Jack and Jill go up the hill, because they lived in a hill country. Well, I'm on the side of the hill going up, and there's an escarpment. And from one side, it goes all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico, and it's a rich, cultivated land, whatever. And then you do this climb up into, what we call, a hill country, and it's all limestone, a beautiful coverage of the live oak tree. Doug: [10:55] Do you think that the oak survived this long because of the springs and the availability of water below ground? Tim: [11:01] Absolutely. To be that size-- I have a huge oak in my yard too, but it's not as big, as old as that one, but also have the native Texas pecan tree, which is almost as big in diameter. That's because at that level, there's seepage from the springs, from the route of the springs that are able to come over in water, because unless pecan trees get water, they don't do anything. Doug: [11:34] That's the tree of Texas, right, the state tree? Tim: [11:38] You're right. Doug: [11:39] So, thanks very much for sending the recent book. It's called New Braunfels' Historic Landa Park: Its Springs and Its People. So much appreciated for that. Could you tell me about the authors? Who are Rosemarie Gregory and Arlene Seales? Why did they write this book? Tim: [12:01] Well, they are both yokel locals, people who grew up here. Best friends. You don't see one without the other. But Rosemarie has always been the one who wrote a book about different things, and I think that she felt there was something missing and not a complete history of Landa Park. So, I think that she said it's time to do it. So, being Friends for Landa Park Board Members, she tapped everybody. She knew everybody. She knows their dogs, their maiden name, and all kinds of things. She has tremendous memory recall. She's about 90-ish, thereabouts early. Doug: [12:43] She's in her early 90s right now? Tim: [12:44] Yeah, right now. But she volunteered to do it. Not only did she have the desire to do it, but she knew all the people who had the money to help fund this. So, we had to go to those folks to get the seed money for publishing the book. She was very successful. Doug: [13:02] So, she's a local historian. She has a column, right? Tim: [13:06] That's right. Every other week in the local newspaper called the Herald Zeitung. Doug: [13:11] The book on Historic Landa Park is a treasure, and Miss Gregory and Miss Seales should be proud of their achievement. In fact, the best way for Tim to discuss New Braunfels history was simply to quote the book. It's all in there. So, we said that New Braunfels was settled in 1845 or became a town, but before that, it was a Spanish mission. Could you tell me who was there and what happened to it? Tim: [13:37] Yeah, there's not a lot of information about that. So, let me just read you what's written in the book here, because that's about all that I know too. Let's see. The mission was established near the springs in 1756 at the urging of the Mayeyes, an Indian tribe, M-A-Y-E-Y-E-S, a band of the Tonkawa tribe was the mission they called Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. frequent raids by the Comanches caused the mission to be abandoned in 1758. So, here it was two years, and it's gone. Doug: [14:18] Did not last very long. Tim: [14:20] No. San Antonio, that's the spot where all the 1,700 missions, and they're about four or five. My wife and I were married in one of those beautiful, beautiful Spanish missions. Doug: [14:31] I see. So, that was not a major part of the New Braunfels history. Tim: [14:36] No. Doug: [14:37] But you mentioned the newspaper is the Herald Zeitung, which is a German word for newspaper. Tim: [14:45] Right. Doug: [14:46] So, the town of New Braunfels has a really fascinating beginning, because it was settled by a German prince who was also a military officer, Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels. Tim: [14:58] All right. Doug: [14:59] Who was he, and what was he doing coming to the Texas frontier? Tim: [15:05] Okay. I'm going to read from the book here because they say it very well. German Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels was the Commissioner General for the Society for the Protection of the German Immigrant in Texas, also known in Texas as the German Immigration Company. So, they had an organization called the Adelsverein, the Society of the Nobleman. Its members were royalty. Their purpose was to relieve overcrowding in Germany by settling fellow countrymen in a new land, and in the process, obtain a good trading partner. Their main interest was to make a profit from future business arrangements in the colonial establishment while establishing new homes for their fellow Germans. Doug: [15:55] I see. So, it was overcrowding. I know that there was constant warfare in that time too, so that might have had something to do with it. Tim: [16:04] Yeah. And I don't think that people could own their land, but here you got land. When you came, you were given a certain amount of land. It's yours. Yeah. Doug: [16:14] Prince Carl of Solms-Braunfels was a minor German prince whose family had lost its land during the Napoleonic period in the early 1800s. Subsequently, the German states were ruled by Austrian leadership. Carl was landless, so he became an officer in the Austrian military and later the cavalry of the Grand Duchy of Hesse. During his service, Prince Carl read books about Texas, and was enraptured by the promise of open land and fertile country. He joined the Adelsverein, becoming its commissioner, which was a society established by German dukes to organize mass immigration to Texas. They thought this could be a new Germany . Texas, at the time, was selling land grants to encourage settlers. The Adelsverein already had the rights to one large land grant, and Prince Carl made the long exploratory trip to Texas during the summer of 1844 to check it out. When there, he determined that the perfect location for a settlement was nearby along the Guadalupe River. It had flowing springs and of course, our esteemed live oak tree. On behalf of the Adelsverein, he purchased that land too. The new colony was called New Braunfels. More than 4,000 Germans immigrated to New Braunfels in the surrounding area. Prince Carl had returned to Germany and never made it back to Texas. It turns out he didn't have much business acumen and wasn't so good with the logistics of colonization. It was messy business and the founding of the town was left to his successor, John Meusebach. You can read all about that history, but let's just say it wasn't easy. I just did a little bit of reading, and Prince Carl apparently read about Texas. There were these books circulating about Texas and he thought this was a great place. Tim: [18:15] Yeah, and there are pictures, graphic things showing what New Braunfels looked like through the eyes of the artists. So, they would send those drawings to the people in different countries to invite them to come. That was certainly the case in Germany. We have some of those nearby here too, where you have the graphics of it, which is really very pretty. Doug: [18:40] I would love to see some of those drawings. Do you have them in town? Tim: [18:44] I'm sure, I know we have some at the library. There's so many pictures and different books about large groups sitting under The Founders' Oak that represented some convention that was here. But it's always been a spot where there's water and there's shade, so you can't beat that. That environment to where all these mill things were is now owned by a group that has every year, a big Wurstfest celebration in November. It incorporates all those buildings and the water. It's just a beautiful spot. Doug: [19:22] So, that's a German celebration. Are there still a lot of people of German descent in New Braunfels? Tim: [19:27] Oh, yeah. We're members of the St. Peter and Paul Catholic Church here. And sometimes, when certain of the German families show up, they fill the whole pew. It's about 12 people in there. So, there's still a lot of German people who are very active and were really instrumental in getting things started and organized, and keeping an eye on things. Doug: [19:53] You mentioned people meeting under the tree. Do you know of any specific meetings or stories about that? Tim: [20:00] Yes, there's one picture in the book that shows the organization, I guess, throughout Texas of people who were involved with granaries, and that was what Landa's business was. So, they have pictures of them in areas that he developed and pictures of them underneath The Founders' Oak. Downtown is just like three blocks away from Landa Park. So, any activity that was downtown always went to Landa Park for anything, a picnic and big dance floors. When Harry Landa had it, they had concession stands, so it was an attractant to have people come after they had parades or whatever was going on downtown. Doug: [20:50] And so, the tree was a witness to it. Tim: [20:53] Yes. [music] Doug: [20:55] We're going to take a short break. When we come back, Emily speaks to Kelly Eby about how The Founders' Oak attained its official status as a famous tree of Texas, and about some of the preservation efforts over time. But while its name relates to the founding of New Braunfels by European settlers, the tree is receiving new recognition that is long overdue. The Founders' Oak had already been sacred to the Comanches. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Song - Jerry Irby] Emily: [21:56] Hey, Kelly. Welcome to This Old Tree. I am excited to talk with you today about The Founders' Oak. We've known each other for a while, yeah? Kelly: [22:05] Yeah. At least, gosh, at least 16 years, maybe. 15 years? Emily: [22:13] I'm thinking so. My recollection of getting to know you better was skeet shooting with an ISA Texas board members retreat out in College Station. I feel like that might have been 2008, 2009. There's a lot of foresters in Central Texas, but I do feel like it's still a small community. So, when you start doing this work in this vicinity, you kind of meet everybody. Kelly: [22:41] I always say the tree world is a small world. [laughs] Emily: [22:45] Right. Well, so, I'm curious, Kelly, when you became the Urban Forester for New Braunfels, did you already know about The Founders' Oak? Kelly: [22:55] I attended Wurstfest, which is a popular German festival when I was a child, but I do not remember the rest of the park. So, I interviewed for the position as the city's first Urban Forester back in 2008. I remember driving in to do the interview, and just seeing a mystical landscape with the crystal-clear water. It was cold outside, so the river was steaming, look at this giant mystical tree. So, it was one of the things that drew me in for sure. The tree is a little less than 50 ft tall and has a 100-foot-wide canopy spanning in different directions. It just creates a cover, a canopy, a roof where you feel like you are secure under the shelter of that tree, so with two main branches that come out. It leans over pretty well and is covered with rough textured bark that makes it gnarled, and old, and ancient looking. So, it's pretty mystical to look at. Emily: [24:24] So, I am curious, Kelly. So, you didn't really necessarily know very much about the tree when you started that position. Was it yet designated one of the Famous Trees of Texas? Kelly: [24:36] It received that designation later in about 2010, I believe. We started the application process, and then 2012 is when it finally received that designation. It was a very thorough application process through the Texas A&M Forest Service. What was really interesting was, they hadn't had an application for a famous tree in like 50 years. Emily: [25:07] Oh, wow. So, did you initiate that application process? Kelly: [25:13] I did. I had a lot of help from volunteers. There are a lot of community advocates in New Braunfels Garden Club members, Friends for the Preservation of Historic Landa Park. There are a lot of people that have a vested interest in the health of the trees in their community, especially in that park. We had some challenging droughts in about 2011, where I had to engage the community and our park staff in doing more work to preserve the trees. They did install a drip irrigation system in 2010. We amended the soil with compost. We mulched the tree. We did a root collar excavation to ensure there was nothing restricting the growth of the tree around the base of the tree and that it wasn't compromised, monitored the vigor of the growth of the tree on the tips of the leaves, [giggles] and pruned the tree of deadwood. Emily: [26:25] Well, I want to go back to that famous tree designation. Just this past weekend, I got a copy of Famous Trees of Texas. It's a first edition print. This is a beautiful book. I flipped through it looking for your tree, looking for Founder's Oak. And only after flipping front to back did I realize, "Oh, yeah, this is a first edition. It came out in 1970." I don't think I knew before this conversation that you were the one that initiated that designation. So, I really want to give you a high five and a pat on the back. That's nice work. Kelly: [27:04] Like I said, it was a group effort. [laughs] Yeah, they even held a contest back in 1986 with the sesquicentennial celebration to name the tree. And the woman who named the tree, she was in attendance during the-- She came to the celebration. So, that was pretty amazing, that they were able to hunt her down and she was able to attend the celebration. Emily: [27:37] Oh, that's fantastic. Who else do you remember being there at that celebration? I guess, it's been about 10 years ago at this point, but-- Kelly: [27:44] New Braunfels has been through a lot, a cultural hotspot. So, they included the indigenous nations. Dr. [unintelligible [00:27:59] came to speak. I believe he did some flute music as well. He's very well known in our region. There's a lot of history of indigenous people around the springs. They found a lot of archaeological items that date over 10,000 years from different tribes. They had Spanish floor [unintelligible [00:28:35] dancers come, because there used to be a Spanish mission in the region. We had a bagpiper [laughs] through personal knowledge. Texas bagpiper, Robert Eby, my husband also was there. Texas A&M Forest Service, Paul Johnson, Dolores Schumann, lots of really great people that helped bring the cultural history of that area. So, that was really, really, really fun and a magical event. Emily: [29:17] Do you have a favorite story related to Founders' Oak? Kelly: [29:23] I think one of the things I wanted to also mention is there's a photo in the park's office from over 100 years ago with German settlers picnicking under the tree. It always struck a chord, because they're wearing so much clothing. [laughs] They're wearing long dresses and long sleeves and hats, and I'm just like, "Well, they're enjoying the air conditioning under the tree." That shade just has provided so much for people for so long. [laughs] But there have been other people that have cared and maintained the tree. We also had Jess Divin, who was a forester for New Braunfels and currently now Josh King. I know that everyone is trying their best to keep it around for the future generations. [music] Doug: [30:30] In addition to the Famous Tree of Texas designation, our tree will be receiving an entirely new honor. In fall of 2023, The Founders' Oak will officially be recognized as a Comanche marker tree. To learn more about this fascinating topic, I was pointed to Steve Houser, the person in Texas chiefly responsible for putting marker trees on the map. Quite literally, his humble nature and great respect for the Comanche nation quickly became apparent. Steve: [31:01] Well, I am a certified arborist, consulting arborist, and tree climber for over 43 years in our area. I am also the chair for the Texas Historic Tree Coalition's Indian Marker Tree Committee. Doug: [31:20] Great. So, you're a tree climber too. I didn't know that. Steve: [31:23] Oh, yeah. Most all of my life till I got older. Doug: [31:26] [laughs] Steve: [31:27] I still climb, but not like I used to. [laughs] Doug: [31:30] Well, welcome to the show. Steve: [31:31] Oh, thank you for the opportunity. Doug: [31:33] First of all, what's the Texas Historic Tree Coalition, and how did you become involved in it? Steve: [31:39] Well, the Historic Tree Coalition is an all-volunteer nonprofit, established in 1995 primarily to fight a battle over trees at a local hospital. Since that time, we fought many battles over the years. One of the things that's on our website is our handbook for tree advocacy that we encourage people to use if they're fighting their own battles in their own areas. But shortly after we established, we realized that we can't preserve trees that we fail to recognize are significant. That's the bottom line. We started to realize, we've got to start recognizing all the significant trees we can find in the state. Doug: [32:26] Right. You'll have a stronger argument and preservation if you say, this is an historic tree. Steve: [32:31] Right, and that's part of the purpose. So, our mission is to find, research, recognize, preserve, and celebrate significant trees in the state of Texas. Doug: [32:42] That's fantastic. How long have you been in existence? Steve: [32:46] Since 1995. Doug: [32:48] I wonder how many trees you've saved over that time? Steve: [32:51] [laughs] I don't know. But I can tell you it's been hundreds of battles in the area over trees and really around the state. Doug: [33:00] It's interesting you phrased it in terms of battles. Have you, over time, found that the battles are becoming more cooperative as your educational efforts have increased, or just over time? Steve: [33:14] Oh, I think people are becoming more aware of the benefits of trees, probably the last 5 years or 10 years than they were previously. Secondly, we're always very reasonable and responsible in the approach that we take. So, we're not emotional out there, chaining ourselves to trees and things like that. We're very reasonable, responsible, fact-based types of information that we gather. So, we base our battles a lot of times on just the facts. In 2005, we convinced Dallas Mayor, Laura Miller, to establish an Urban Forest Advisory Committee in the city. So, we've worked with the city on all kinds of different things since that time. One of the purposes was, we always fought these battles as outsiders. They always called us outsiders. So, this gave us an opportunity to be insiders that we were appointed by the mayor, and that forced people to listen a little bit more. Doug: [34:17] That's fantastic. I love that approach. I understand The Founders' Oak in New Braunfels is being designated an official Comanche marker tree. Could you tell me what a marker tree is? Steve: [34:29] Well, a marker tree is one that was used by American-Indian tribes for various purposes, such as turning trees, ceremonial trees, treaty council trees of which The Founders' Oak, which was recently recognized, was considered to be a council oak, which means that the Comanches, their different bands, would meet underneath it. Sometimes, other tribes would meet underneath the tree, primarily because of the significance of the area. Landa Park is well known for their Comal River that goes right through the park near the tree. It's one of the largest springs nearby in the state of Texas that has fresh, clean water. The Camino Real Trail, which is one of the earliest trails in the state of Texas, went right through the park. So, it was an easy argument on this one to point out that the Comanches had to have been there in the past. Doug: [35:32] So, this tree isn't just a marker tree. It's also a council tree. Is there a distinction? Steve: [35:39] Well, it is a type. There are many different types of marker trees, and the council oak is just one of the different types of marker trees. So, the Comanches don't really recognize a trail marker. They call them turning trees. So, if you're going down a trail and you find one of these trees, it told you where to turn. You’ve got to remember, even today, if we tell somebody directions out in the wilderness, it will be go to that odd shaped tree and follow the direction that it's pointing. So, even if it was created by nature, it doesn't mean it's not a marker tree. Doug: [36:17] Many of the marker trees have been shaped over time, but that's not necessarily– Steve: [36:24] Right. And that's the first thing that people think a marker tree has to bent. How we find them? The process is explained more in our book, Comanche Marker Trees of Texas, which was published about 2016. That gave us the opportunity to tell the Comanche story about these trees. Doug: [36:47] Now, you co authored that book, correct? Steve: [36:50] That's correct. Doug: [36:51] And the other author? Steve: [36:53] The other author is Jimmy Arterberry, who is a tribal elder. He was the tribal historic preservation officer for over 20 something years. He was also the tribal administrator for the tribe for a few years, not too long ago. So, he's pretty well known in the industry. The other author was Linda Pelon, who is a professor in anthropology as well. The process that we use to identify them, but it begins when somebody submits an application and photographs, a lot of times, through our website, which is txhtc.org. So, they submit information, we review it. Some of them are ruled out pretty quickly because they're just not large enough or old enough. You have to understand that the Comanches haven't been in Texas for over 150 years. It requires at least usually a 20-inch tree or more to qualify as being old enough. Doug: [38:02] Where are they now? Steve: [38:04] Up in Lawton, Oklahoma. All of the tribe was moved up to Oklahoma over 150 years ago. So, 20 inches is kind of the bare minimum. That's the smallest that we found that was growing on solid rock, and we found it to be old enough due to ring dating. A lot of times, we'll take off a dead limb. I don't want to be disrespectful of the elders and the tribe, and I don't want to core bore into these trees because if they are true market trees, the last thing I want to do is damage them or hurt them. So, I take off dead limbs, read the growth rings to determine a growth rate, which gets me in the ballpark as to how the tree may be. So, if a tree has potential, we typically ask for more history on the site, more of the details if we can find them, and then we go out to visit the tree to collect more data and photographs. So, the next step after that is to research the tree, the site, the area to ensure the Comanches were likely to have been on the site and to find the purpose of the tree. Sometimes, it's a grove of trees that what purpose did they serve. In other words, all marker trees had a purpose. The archaeologists that we work with have a lot of information that helps us to qualify a tree. With The Founders' Oak, there's archaeological research on that site that goes back thousands of years, which helps us to prove that it was a very important site to tribes even before the Comanches were here. Doug: [39:50] So, who decides that a particular tree has met all of the criteria, and yes, it's going to receive this specific designation? Steve: [40:00] Well, that's one of the things. Once we've researched everything on a site that we can find, the purpose for the tree or trees, we respectfully submit the information primarily to Jimmy Arterberry for consideration. Doug: [40:17] So, it's the tribe that ultimately decides. Steve: [40:20] Right. I'm just a volunteer that works on the process, supplies the information. They're the authorities that recognize the tree. And out of, what, 800 trees now and almost 30 years of working on it, I think we're up to about 15 trees or 16 trees. There's other tribes around the nation that seem to recognize their presence or the presence of market trees. But to the best of my knowledge, the Comanche are the only tribe that officially recognize trees today or in the recent past, which makes them very unique from that perspective. Another reason that I'm so proud and honored to be able to work with them, as well as many other reasons. So, Comanche marker trees are considered to be sacred to begin with. The Comanche have a great reverence for trees and for nature. The first time that I was really getting to know them, we were walking to the first tree that we ever recognized. I was talking to James Yellowfish, one of the tribal elders, and I said something to him about, "You guys seem to know a lot about nature." He took off his glasses, grabbed me by the shoulders, and pulled me up to where our faces were a few inches apart, and he said, "We are one with nature." It raised goosebumps on my arms. It still does when I think about that day. I think being one with nature is not something the public even thinks about today. Nature is something that's outside, we're inside. So, being one with nature was, that one phrase that he gave to me, really hooked me on this, and I thought, "Oh, this is something I've got to spend time on." Doug: [42:02] That's powerful. Steve: [42:03] You've got to consider what was important 150 years and 200 years ago, food, water, shelter, and direction. And marker trees provided a lot of that. So, you also have to consider that we took American-Indians away from their land, and the way we treated them was just absolutely sickening to me. This is why certain trees and specific sites in Texas mean a great deal to their cultural heritage, and why working with them, to me, is so important. If you really learn about the way that we treated the American-Indians, not just the Comanches, it's heartbreaking. And so, I feel that I'm doing my part. It won't ever make amends for what's happened, but I always try to do my part. So, when we celebrated a tree a few years ago in Holliday, Texas, which is one that we recently got on our website, there was over hundred tribal members that came to that event to celebrate it. So, that gives you an idea of how important that tree is to their culture. I will state one of the things that they told me once, and that was that Texas history didn't start when the white men arrived. That's so true. There's a great deal of tribal history that's not well known or explored. That's why Jimmy Arterberry wrote, it's a Comanche Nation research report for the Texas Department of Transportation. That's on our website. So, if you really want to learn a lot about the Comanche history from somebody who really knows, you can go to our website and find that text report. There are other tribes that we do work with. We've recognized historic trees like, down in Waco a number of years. We work with the Waco, Wichita, Keechi or Kichai, Tawakoni, and the [unintelligible [00:44:03] Indians, which are all together in one office, actually up in Oklahoma, to recognize some of their trees. Now, they aren't really considered marker trees, but they are historic trees that have a play in their history in Texas as well. Once a tree is finally recognized, to me, it's very rewarding. I've always been proud and deeply honored to be able to work with the Comanches to help them reconnect with a significant part of their history. That's basically what I do. It's very rewarding to be able to actually have one that's recognized and it turns out. [theme music] Doug: [44:44] You've heard Jimmy Arterberry's name come up a couple of times. The Comanche Nation tribal elder, former administrator, and historian. Well, Emily had the privilege of speaking with him, and we are very lucky to have him on This Old Tree to talk about the search for Comanche marker trees, and the meaning behind it all, coming up after the break. [Song - Jerry Irby] Emily: [45:39] Jimmy, I feel honored to talk with you this afternoon. This is a treat. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Jimmy: [45:48] Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about the topic today. Emily: [45:53] Yes. Well, it's a tree topic. We can't go wrong. It's a tree and culture topic. There's a host of different types of marker trees that indicate different things. And you described it as a taxonomy of marker trees. I find that really, really interesting and would love to dig into that a little bit more. Jimmy: [46:16] That's exactly right. A lot of people, when they hear marker trees, they do, what you just mentioned about, modified or bent tree, something kind of unusual. But the reality is that, the chapter in my book is called Comanche Marker Tree Taxonomy: Comanche Marker/ Turning/Pointing/Leaning/Bent Trees (Medicine Trees). So, the idea is that a marker tree doesn't have to be one that has been modified. It can be one that through the years has just grown naturally, but stands out in a landscape or at a location that marks a spot or that people maybe intuitively are drawn to that tells a story about a place. I consider all trees, service trees. They all serve a different purpose. Some for medicinal, some for food, and other uses. There's a lot of uses for trees. So, that's the great thing about creating this taxonomy was from a Comanche cultural perspective. So, it's the idea was to say, these are the type of trees that mean something to us that we used for various purposes. But the beauty of it is that amongst all cultures and all communities, they can decipher themselves, because if they understood that taxonomy, they could actually create their own to satisfy their own understanding of what a tree in their community or in their culture means to them specifically. And around the world, it's like different cultures use trees as a means of, like I said, either ceremonial purpose, religious purposes, medicinal council, gathering places, even just trees that kids like to climb because they're enticing. Emily: [48:07] It really does take you down a path. I think about trees that I can easily draw to mind in my vicinity and my geographic area and which ones I unconsciously use as marker trees for this or that. When we spoke the other day, I shared driving to my mom's house. There's a tree that marks the two-thirds of the way there. Jimmy: [48:35] Yes. Emily: [48:37] It's so just very picturesque. It's very huge. It's at a bend in the road. It absolutely is a marker tree for me. [laughs] Jimmy: [48:45] It's really very fascinating because people can really connect. It's a serious, light hearted subject. I know that working for the tribe-- Of course, I'm retired now, but working for the tribe many years, at one point early in my tenure, I was in charge of the environmental programs. We always had Earth Day. Some of the things we did were give away little seedlings or little plants, trees, and people loved it. Who doesn't want to plant a tree in their yard, especially if it's like a pecan or a plum or a fruit tree. The rewards are delicious. [laughs] Emily: [49:22] Exactly. The fruit net trees always go first at our tree giveaways down here as well. Jimmy: [49:28] And in a historical narrative, it's amazing how many political governmental actions have taken place historically underneath the tree. And for me, a Comanche tribal member, I think about that. Emily: [49:42] Yeah. Well, you mentioned just the ways that those trees provide service, right? They're not only beings in our landscape. They're providing all kinds of service. Yeah, that resonates, right? So, this special tree down in New Braunfels, The Founders' Oak, it is to be designated as one of the Comanche marker trees. What kind of hoops does a tree have to jump through in order to get on your radar or on the council's radar to receive that designation? Jimmy: [50:16] Well, that's a really interesting process. Some of that criteria is knowing our history and when we appeared in certain parts of the country as Comanche people. And so, we look at it from a historical narrative. One of the points in the evaluation is determining the age of the tree. Especially, if it's been a modified tree, the question becomes, is it within this time frame to have been modified? So, we considered archaeology and we considered the science of the trees themselves. To my own historical research and stuff, consider the timeline of Comanche movements on the landscape, and the various bands associated with Comanche culture and activities. I ask more questions, generally. I don't just accept that. Then I start asking my own questions on top of the information they've gathered. Then at that point, our tribal community is involved, especially our elder council. I know some of the times they've even gone to our tribal business council to ask for a resolution of support of recognizing these trees. Emily: [51:23] Well, as I've been thinking about this tree and thinking about this process and thinking about our conversation, one of the things that's really stood out to me is that these big old trees in our landscape, they're absolutely living artifacts. My wheels are turning about how does that really get picked up and recognized, right? Jimmy: [51:46] I'm really excited because I think about-- I think I shared this with you before, but I'll share it with you again. But here where I live, there are these beautiful, they call them catalpa trees. They're fragrant, they flower. What's interesting is here where the prairie grass grew, and now there are lots of trees, trees were not here when it was Indian country still. But now we have these beautiful trees. Actually, they came with the Chinese immigrants. So, I think, wow, how exciting that maybe the African-American communities or the Latino communities or even the Asian communities can consider here in the United States, those cultural resources and maybe have their own taxonomies and experts to establish some parameters, and work with all of us to talk about these living artifacts. Emily: [52:41] It's a very inclusive process, right? Jimmy: [52:43] Yes. Emily: [52:43] Like you said, just because a certain tree might not qualify for this specific designation, it doesn't at all exclude it from being recognized elsewhere. Jimmy: [52:57] Yeah, because we don't want to discard. We don't want to discard, because what's important to one group or community or culture may not hold that significance to another. Even here in Oklahoma, I think about the Oklahoma bombing. There is a tree that survived that blast that's in the garden with the monument that people really ascribe spiritual purposes to. So, if we say formally this is a Comanche market tree, and like, in this case, that you're talking about the council oak, we recognize that as a council oak because of council that was held there under that tree. But it has a rich history of other communities, even the German community, that have through the years utilized that tree for various activities, including religious as well. If a tree has a designation like that, it's not like we have ownership. We're just saying that we recognize it as being important to our culture. The great thing is that lots of cultures and communities can join in to celebrate our connection as people to a location and specifically a tree. Isn't that awesome? Emily: [54:12] It's so inclusive. I love the idea that these trees and this tree, this Founders' Oak in particular, it's providing shade to all the cultures that have inhabited this area for hundreds of years. Jimmy: [54:28] Yeah. And linguistically-- Of course, there's a scientific name for these trees and stuff. But linguistically, in different cultures, we have names for those trees as well. So, in our book, we include some of the names in our native tongue as Comanches, which is Numinu, an Uto-Aztecan language. So, we've included the names in our own language of the type of trees and identified them as such. But it's awesome to be able to recognize it in your native tongue. Emily: [54:57] That makes me happy to hear it. Jimmy, this is great. I really appreciate you spending the time talking about the trees, about the designations, about your experience with them. Jimmy: [55:10] I really appreciate you reaching out to me and just having this conversation. So, thank you. Thank you for having me hosting me. [audio cut] anytime. [This Old Tree theme music] Doug: [55:26] Emily, what a great talk you had with Jimmy Arterberry. The Founders' Oak seems to be part of a much larger cultural history. Emily: [55:34] Doug, you know what really grabs me is just this idea that Founders' Oak has provided shade indiscriminately, right? It's there and it's been there. This tree has provided service to all the cultures that have inhabited that area. That really resonates for me. Doug: [55:58] I feel also, that the tree embodies hopes and dreams. I've got that sense from some of our guests. Emily: [56:06] Sure. Well, standing underneath it-- everybody's going to have their own, right? And my take was just, it was simply gravity defying, Doug. The amount of mass that is suspended over the ground and that you can walk under and still feel protected even, these are massive trunks suspended right over where you can walk. Doug: [56:37] I feel like the story of Texas and The Founders' Oak are wrapped together like dry rub on barbecue. Emily: [56:43] Ah..(groan and laugh). Doug: [56:44] Sorry about that. Emily: [56:45] [laughs] This tree, and trees like it, are living artifacts. These represent another era while simultaneously taking up space and existing in the here and now in our modern day, this tree has persisted. We can have marker trees in our lives that don't have to have a documented story behind them. Trees are special on their own, individually, you and I, we can place meaning on them. And that's still important and that's still special. Doug: [57:20] I love that. Emily, it was a blast working on this with you. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for being the Texas correspondent. Emily: [57:31] I've had a really good time, Doug. Thanks for the opportunity. I'm so glad to have gotten out to the park and visited this tree despite the summer heat. This has been really fun. Doug: [57:42] We'll be in touch soon. I'm sure that there are more trees to discover. Emily: [57:46] Call me when you're ready to come to Texas again. Doug: [57:48] Thanks, Emily. Emily: [57:49] [laughs] You bet. Take care. [This Old Tree theme music] Doug: [58:08] Thank you for listening to This Old Tree. I'm Doug Still. I hope you enjoyed it. And many, many thanks to the wonderful Emily King of Austin, Texas, for co hosting this episode about The Founders' Oak, as well as to all our guests: Tim Barker, Kelly Eby, Steve Houser, and Jimmy Arterberry. You can find out more about their work, their books, and their websites in the show notes or by visiting our own website, thisoldtree.show. I'll be posting pics on Facebook and Instagram. By the way, the music you've been listening to is by Jerry Irby, who is a country singer-songwriter from - you guessed it - New Braunfels, Texas. See you next time. [Song - Jerry Irby] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Moses Cleaveland Trees (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 16 Published May 26, 2023 [Music] Doug Still 00:05 The year was 1796. A group of surveyors from Connecticut had come to the frontier, just west of Pennsylvania to choose locations for new settlements. Their intent was to map the area south of Lake Erie and create a rough plan in order to sell lots to settlers back in New England. The survey group, led by Moses Cleveland, selected one site at the mouth of the Cuyahoga River that eventually took on his name. When Cleveland and his band arrived, they found a beech-maple forest rich with towering Oaks, Chestnut, Elm and Sycamore. Over time, as Cleveland and the surrounding townships grew, the forest was largely cleared. Flash forward to 1946 when the city of Cleveland was set to celebrate its 150 year anniversary, its sesquicentennial. Arthur Williams was a curator at the Museum of Natural History, and an ecologist with the Cleveland Metropolitan Park Board. And he had an idea to honor the founding of Cleveland. Why not find 150 trees that were alive and sizable back in 1796, thus more than 150 years old, and designate them as heritage trees? And that's exactly what he did. With help and some good PR, he found them, 153 of them actually, dotted throughout Cuyahoga County. They were named the Moses Cleveland trees, and each was initiated with a plaque upon its trunk. The project got a lot of attention that year, and afterward, Arthur Williams hoped the trees would continue to inspire people as living links to the past. But, you know how things go. Would this hallowed group of old trees become lost to time, development, and a changing modern world? [music] Join me as I meet some members of a larger team that recently set out to find all these trees and map their locations. My guests Roy Larick, Margeaux Apple, and Michael Melampy are here to describe their tracking efforts and door knocking diplomacy. What did they learn about the Moses Cleveland trees? And Will their historical legacy survive? I'm Doug Still and this is, This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] While I usually center my stories around the symbolism of a single old tree, I've got to say, designating a collection of heritage trees with a shared name and identity seems like a brilliant idea. As a group, these arboreal veterans have an extra aura, like they are part of an exclusive club. The upside is that they are appreciated across neighborhoods, with special pride shared among residents and landowners. But that regional distribution is also the group's downside, as some trees are more vulnerable to the whims and priorities of any individual landowner, as well as to the lack of any coordinated care. Some just get forgotten. Finding them again is like reuniting them in a way, bringing back their collective power and identity. There's something really cool about that. It makes me think of the Blues Brothers movie when Jake and Elwood spread out across Chicago to find their old wayward bandmates in order to get the group back together. These Moses Cleveland trees are forever linked. The chief organizer of the project was Roy Larick, a retired archaeologist with a second career in watershed science and advocacy consulting with Blue Stone Conservation. He was a Paleolithic archaeologist as a matter of fact, and I asked him what that means. Roy Larick 04:17 And that means basically, it's got to be older than 11,000 years. It has to be part of the ice age. And so, and of the Pleistocene, by convention, 11,300 or something like that. And if it's later than that, it is, no, it's not in my expertise basically. Doug Still 04:37 It's too new. Roy Larick 04:38 Yeah. Too new, right. Doug Still 04:40 Where are some of the places you've worked? Roy Larick 04:43 I have worked in southwest Europe, so France and Spain, a little bit in England, and a tiny bit in Italy, but France and Spain basically. And I have had the great fortune of being part of excavation teams for a number of sites in southwest France, cave sites that date anywhere from 450,000 years ago to 11,300. Doug Still 05:12 But what brings you to trees? Roy Larick 05:15 Trees represent, for me, the most basic ecology that develops on top of a substrate; on top of either bedrock, or in the case of Northeast Ohio, glacial deposits. And they are, to my mind, the equivalent of… the floral equivalent of megafauna that I have dealt with as an archaeologist. Doug Still 05:40 He pointed to his appreciation of a book written by Jared Farmer called Elderflora: A Modern History of Ancient Trees, published in 2022. It's an intellectual examination of how the world's oldest trees symbolize the best and worst of modern civilization, as it says in the book jacket. I went and got a copy. Roy Larick 06:01 For me, the trees are… their elderflora. They represent, you know, the basic ecological associations, regional ecological associations that I can understand, and most people can understand as well. So trees are the … trees are the ecology, the basic ecology on top of the bedrock. Doug Still 06:25 I see. When did you first become aware of the Moses Cleveland trees? Roy Larick 06:30 Clevelanders are generally aware of what we call Moses Cleveland trees, at least of a certain generation here. So the first Moses Cleveland trees were designated in 1946, and I'm a child of the ‘50s and ‘60s, so this was a term that you get taught, you tend to know if you're a Clevelander. My direct association with them goes back to 2019, when a friend slash colleague of mine, Bill Barrow (William Barrow) of Cleveland State University Special Collections, retired and became the president of the early settlers association of the Western Reserve. And that organization had taken up the Moses Cleveland trees in 1970, or ‘71, and had worked with them until 1986. And Bill Barrow inherited a number of files that were labeled Moses Cleveland trees, he didn't know what to do with them, and he asked me, as the most science oriented person he knows, to look through these files and tell him what they were about, basically… what the value was. Doug Still 07:40 So he brought this list to you. I'd love to get back to it, but I'd like to go back in time first. Roy Larick 07:48 Okay. Doug Still 07:49 …and ask you: who was Moses Cleveland? Roy Larick 07:52 Moses Cleveland was a resident of Connecticut back in the Revolutionary War era. He had been a general in the US Army and had retired as a rather wealthy man, I believe… at least he became so. And he was part of this group called the Connecticut Land Company, which had put together, back in 1795, about $3 million to purchase what Connecticut called its Western Reserve, that had been given to the state by US Congress in 1786. And the state of Connecticut sat on this for eight or nine years, till they sold it to this land company. Moses Cleveland was a principal in that company and he was hired as the chief surveyor. Doug Still 08:46 So he was from Connecticut. Roy Larick 08:48 He was from Connecticut. Right. And Glastonbury, I believe. So he assembled, in the winter of 1795 - ‘96, 55 people. Some of them were trained surveyors, many more had other skills like hunting, and they were the petitioners for the group. There were all kinds of people who had several jobs: ax men… ax men and chain men, who cut down trees and the like. In any event, this was a major push during the summer of 1796, to come to the western border of Pennsylvania, and survey an area that was 120 miles long (that is, from east to west) and about 50 miles deep from Lake Erie down to a southern border. And it was basically…Connecticut got the right to double itself, west of Pennsylvania. There were, of course, Native Americans here. Not a great presence because this was a buffer zone between Heron speakers in the northwest and Iroquoian speakers to the east. So … each of those groups’ influence trailed out in this area along the Cuyahoga River. So it was basically without permanent Native American settlements, but a lot of travel across the area. Doug Still 10:14 Who were the indigenous tribes? Roy Larick 10:16 Well, it would have been the… the Wyandot was a principal one. There were Ottawa’s, there were Shawnee, and there were… right along the Pennsylvania border there were Iroquois: Seneca Iroquois. Doug Still 10:36 So it was sort of an overlapping jurisdiction right where the Cleveland settlement began. Roy Larick 10:42 That's right. And to the south of this area… so to the south of the Lake Erie drainage and the Tuscarawas drainage, there were settlements. And for that reason, there were missionaries here. And there had been French missionaries earlier. And they… there was a group of Moravian missionaries in the Muskingum Watershed, and they had some dealings here, you know, there was a small presence. Doug Still 11:09 I see. How did these tribes respond to the survey group that came from Connecticut? Roy Larick 11:15 They did encounter some Native Americans and they sent word out that they would be arriving to what's now called Conneaut, Ohio, the northeastern most settlement in Ohio. And they spent some days there negotiating with a small group, I think less than a dozen Native Americans. And they came to one of these ridiculous kinds of contracts, where for just, you know, a few score dollars in cash, and some tools, some, what we would call, trinkets these days, and some whiskey - some barrels of whiskey -, they would obtain this area, at least from the Pennsylvania line to the Cuyahoga River. Doug Still 12:03 And so what did Moses Cleveland and his team do once they got to this spot? Like how did they select this one spot? Roy Larick 12:11 The Moses Cleveland and some of the principles had taken a land traverse from Connecticut, across New York, and into the little bit of Pennsylvania that sticks up to Lake Erie. And they… this is where they set up … this conference, series of conferences, but most of the group and all of the supplies came by boat from Irondequoit Bay, actually, or just Sodus, New York. And so they had to traverse their boats up around Niagara Falls and into Lake Erie, and they met at Conneaut. There was a major storm on Lake Ontario when these boats were coming. And the boat that held the barrels of whiskey foundered, and they lost a lot of their daily grog ration. Doug Still 13:08 Aw man! [both Doug and Roy laugh] So they were not happy. Roy Larick 13:12 They were not happy. It was like a military enlistment and part of it was a ration. Doug Still 13:17 What was the forest like when they got there? Because obviously, some of these trees, that we're about to talk about, were there. Roy Larick 13:26 You know, we know it as basically a beech maple forest region wide. And it's an extension from New England, across Northern New York and into this area, and it actually goes into Michigan, and I think goes up to Wisconsin a little bit. So beech was the principal tree, sugar maple was second, but it was varied, and especially by terrain. So in the higher, more humid areas, beech and sugar maple dominated. On the slopes where it was a bit drier, oaks dominated. And then in the swamps, there was a combination of swamp white oak and pin oak that tended… and Elm and chestnut, which are gone entirely. Yeah. Doug Still 14:14 Was it a closed canopy forest? Or were there open areas that might have been cleared? Roy Larick 14:20 It was a closed canopy, I think we can say that. There has been some argument about this, that there were… that this area is the southernmost point of the northern forest, It's the western most most point of the Eastern forest, and conversely, it's the easternmost extension of the prairie, the Tallgrass prairie. So there had been arguments that there were isolated prairies, and that, upon review, that doesn't seem to be the case. Doug Still 14:53 So then the survey team finished up by the end of September? Roy Larick 14:57 Yes. Doug Still 14:58 And then they went back to Connecticut. Roy Larick 15:00 Yes. Doug Still 15:00 Then what’d they do? Roy Larick 15:02 They wrote everything up, and they graded the townships, that is, better to worse. And then the Connecticut Land Company took over and formed basically blocks of land to sell, that would have nicer and lesser townships with them. And everybody got a share, basically. And then they hired agents to actually sell land back in New England and out here, in the frontier. [music] Doug Still 15:33 When did the city or town of Cleveland take its name? Roy Larick 15:36 Right then and there. Doug Still 15:39 We are going to take a quick break. When we come back, Moses Cleveland Tree Project leader, Roy Larick, describes how the original heritage tree effort came about in 1946. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [music] The sesquicentennial, which is a word that I just learned, thanks to researching this. How do trees become involved in that idea? Roy Larick 16:23 There was a large celebration. And there were a couple of aspects to it. So, Cleveland is 150 years old. For a New Englander that doesn't sound so old, but at the time, it was, you know, much more than a century. It was going to be the first really large celebration, and I think that a lot of this celebration had to do with the end of World War II. It was just a year after the war had formally ended, and the economy was just starting to grow. People were beginning to feel good about this area, which had certainly developed industrially a number of times, very early on. But the war effort – the World War II effort – meant a lot of manufacturing, for armaments, and machines of various sorts. Okay, so there was wealth here, and there was a good feeling. There was a committee, a Sesquicentennial committee. And I don't know how they got in contact with Arthur B. Williams of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, the forest ecologist there, but there arose this effort on the part of Arthur Williams to identify 150 trees that would have been present when Moses Cleveland was there. So they wouldn't have been seedlings or even saplings, they would have been decent trees, so they would be more than 150 years old. And as a forest ecologist, he wanted to see the range of forest species represented in this group of 150 trees. So he took over and there were other ecologists, our Metroparks – our Cleveland Metroparks – is a very large organization that, back in the 1910s, began to establish hundreds and hundreds of acres of reservations. Okay? so the chief naturalist from that organization aided in this. And once again, it was Arthur Williams’ idea to go out and get as many species of 150 year old trees as was possible, and they ended up with 23. And some of them really aren't trees that grow that long in the forest. But they still were picked and Arthur Williams knew himself … that by the end of the sesquicentennial year, that some of these trees that were in pretty poor shape, still old, might be gone. So they did identify – designate – 153, just to make sure there would be 150 at the end of the year. Doug Still 19:05 So they had 23 different species. What are some of the species that they chose? Roy Larick 19:10 The dominant ones are the oaks, which tend to be the longest lived around here. So, white oak, swamp white oak, bur oak, various red oaks, black oak included, and sugar maples were quite represented because that is a dominant tree, beeches, yes, although by that time beeches were having problems due to urban disturbance. I’ll backup to say that the… one of the more important things about these Moses Cleveland trees is that Arthur Williams wanted them to be either on public ways or quite visible from them. Okay? So that means that trees like beech, that are sensitive to root disturbance, were not often found next to public ways. Oaks tend to be more resistant to disturbance, especially certain ones. Hickories were pretty well represented. Several cucumber magnolias, getting down to the trees that are present in the native forests but never really numerous. Doug Still 20:16 Now there's a sycamore that I read about. Roy Larick 20:18 Sycamore, right. Sycamore is a good one. Sycamores, I think there would have been more, except not too many are located near public ways because the public ways don't go through floodplains, which is the sycamores preferred habitat. Typically the Moses Cleveland trees were indeed forest trees in 1796. But the classic Moses Cleveland trees are those that the early settlers saw in the forest as nice trees and they cleared around them. They left them in open areas. Doug Still 20:49 So who was choosing the trees in 1946? Roy Larick 20:52 It was Arthur Williams and a man named Harold Wallen, who was the chief naturalist for the Metroparks. They were in charge of it. The way they did this was to send letters to mayors of municipalities throughout Cuyahoga County to ask residents or knowledgeable people anyway, to identify trees. Doug Still 21:16 So the Moses Cleveland trees are not just in Cleveland. Roy Larick 21:19 Cuyahoga County. Doug Still 21:21 Once they selected the trees, what did they do next? Roy Larick 21:25 They… each one was personally visited by Arthur Williams, who wrote a description. Unfortunately, not locating it as precisely as one would like 75 years later. Doug Still 21:39 Right. [Doug Still chuckles] And do you have those descriptions in that file you were talking about? Roy Larick 21:46 Yes, we have those descriptions. Doug Still 21:48 And you have them in your collection, or…? Roy Larick 21:51 They are archived at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. Doug Still 21:55 And they included a plaque with each tree, right? Roy Larick 21:59 That's right. A plaque that was made of aluminum, about six by eight inches, just slightly rectangular. And it had the standard Moses Cleveland tree Sesquicentennial, city of Cleveland 1796 to 1946, and then the species name of the tree. Doug Still 22:26 So there was sort of a select group of people that were part of this quote, unquote, Moses Cleveland tree club. Roy Larick 21:34 That's right. Doug Still 22:35 And people, you know, a homeowner would say, “Oh, I've got a Moses Cleveland tree. I've got the plaque right here.” Roy Larick 22:41 Yes. Oh, after the fact. That's right. Most people, still to this day, are proud of a Moses Cleveland tree on their land. Doug Still 22:50 So there are 150 original trees, plus three to make sure that they kept the number at 150. Roy Larick 22:57 That's right. Doug Still 22:58 The number was added to over the years. Roy Larick 23:00 Yes, it was. Doug Still 23:02 How did that occur? Roy Larick 23:04 Arthur Williams, at the end, was probably tired of this. He retired about three years later, never having done much more with the Moses Cleveland trees, except to putting a few in his magnum opus, which is called, The Native Forest of Cuyahoga County. He retired right after finishing that book in 1949, and then the museum itself lost interest entirely. So nothing was done with the Moses Cleveland trees from, let's say, 1946 to about 1970, when, this group I’ve already mentioned, the early settlers association of the Western Reserve got interested. Doug Still 23:48 That's who you belong to, right? Roy Larick 23:50 Yes, I was recruited into this group after I got an interest in the trees myself. Doug Still 23:55 Mmhm. Roy Larick 23:56 So in 1970, they thought that they should inventory all 153 sites, to see what was still around. They did, and this time around, it was not specialists. Okay? The knowledge involved, the forests of trees, was, I want to say, more limited. But they did go out and find the sites and at least determine whether the tree was there, if it was gone, when it had gone, under what conditions. And they brought this back, and they found, I think it was 92 trees, still surviving from this original 153. And they sat on this for some months or a year, and then decided that they should continue the program of designating most Cleveland trees. And so over, actually the next 30 years, yeah, I'm sorry, 20 years, they then sent out various groups to do several score at a time. And eventually, by 1986, they had added another 143. Doug Still 25:11 I see. So it was sort of a slow moving project that added trees over time. Roy Larick 25:16 That's right. There were bursts, you know? And the big burst came in 1976, the bicentennial of the country. And the biggest push, I think there were 100 trees actually designated in 1975, 1976. Doug Still 25:33 the mid-‘80s then…? Roy Larick 25:35 The mid-’80s, once again… what happens with these organizations, you know, the leader retires, and the interest wanes, and that's what happens here. Doug Still 25:48 Although the Early Settlers Association published about these trees in two separate publications over the years, the project was largely dropped until 2019. President Bill Barrow handed off the stack of jumbled files to Roy, and his inner archaeologist, naturalist and community organizer took over. The Moses Cleveland Tree Project was revived. In fact, he connected with a group already interested in the project, the Forest City working group, organized by Sustainable Cleveland, a program with the Mayor's Office of Sustainability. The Forest City working group grew out of an action item in the city's 2015 Cleveland tree plan, an expansive master plan for the urban forest. It included an idea to create a landmark tree program and the Moses Cleveland Tree Project was suggested to be a good place to start. Cathi Lehn is Cleveland’s sustainability manager, and with Forest City Working Group co-chair Courtney Blaschke, she had already started a fledgling effort. Roy joined in and helped lead the effort during the early years of COVID lockdown. Roy Larick 26:57 The common point there was the 225’th anniversary of the city of Cleveland, which has a terrible Latin name for that. I can't tell you… Doug Still 27:08 I can only imagine. [Doug and Roy laugh] Roy Larick 27:10 Yes, it's twice as long as “sesquicentennial”. And…so there was this common interest that this anniversary was coming up. And the sentiment with the Forest City Working Group and the Early Settlers was that this was the time to re-inventory these trees because they were falling. Doug Still 27:30 a concern for these oldest trees and the trees cities canopy in general. Roy Larick 27:35 And that, yes, that's right. This all ties in with a renewed interest in trees around the world, I think, certainly in this country. And in Northeast Ohio in the urban areas, urban canopy has dropped considerably since 1946, in particular. Doug Still 27:55 According to the 2015 Cleveland tree plan, the city had lost about half its tree canopy since the 1950s. When viewed from above, the canopy cover was only 18%, a low number relative to other cities and less than 1/5 of what is possible. The city had been losing about 75 acres of trees annually. And while Cleveland represents less than 20% of Cuyahoga County's area, the broader picture is much the same. In the 2010s, the county lost more than 10 square miles of tree canopy, even as communities tried to build it back. The master plan expressed great urgency and the need for awareness and action. Margeaux Apple 28:36 When they started talking about the Moses Cleveland trees. And the idea of inventorying them, I'm like, this is an amazing project. I am there! It's a treasure hunt for like the biggest oldest trees in Cleveland, like absolutely! [music] Doug Still 28:51 That was Margeaux Apple, one of the inventory volunteers. When we come back from the break, we'll hear from her and another volunteer Michael Malampy about what it was like out searching for these venerable denizens, and what they found, and what it means to Cleveland. We'll return with This Old Tree. Margeaux, welcome to the show. Welcome to This Old Tree. Margeaux Apple 29:38 Thank you for having me. Doug Still 29:40 Where do you work now? And what's your role there? Margeaux Apple 29:43 Yeah, I currently work at Cambridge University Botanic Garden, which is the Botanic Garden of the University of Cambridge in the UK. And my role is on the curatorial team at the Botanic Garden. My title is collections coordinator. I guess I'll take a step back back and talk about what a botanic garden is because I think that's relevant to explaining what curation is. But a botanic garden is a documented collection of plants. And the key term there is documented. So that's what separates a botanic garden from a park or a display garden, is the records that you keep on your plant. So, for any given plant and a botanic garden, you know, we should be able to tell you, first and foremost, you know, what that plant is, you know, if it's a red oak, if it's a white pine, whatever it is, we should be able to tell you what that plant is. We should be able to tell you where it came from, if it came from, you know, a nursery or if it came from, you know, the specific place in the wild, where it was collected as a seed. All of that information, all that metadata is captured in your botanic gardens plant records database. And so I help to manage that database. One of my key roles is assisting in auditing. So our collection differed from other museums and that we have a living collection, right? So things die, things grow, things proliferate, things happen at a botanic garden. Doug Still 31:13 So it's amazing coming from the Moses Cleveland Tree Project. I mean, this is… this is what you do. This is your specialty. Margeaux Apple 31:22 Absolutely. I mean, so before being at Cambridge, I was at Holden Forests and Gardens, which is an arboretum and botanic garden in Cleveland, Ohio, and Cleveland’s where I'm from. and this is what I… I was the plant recorder for that institution. So I, you know, I loved it, like I absolutely loved like everything about plant records. I found it fascinating, I love the inventory process, it just like, it just all clicked. And so when… I think it would… I was trying to remember how I got involved in the Forest City working group… Doug Still 31:53 So that's how you came to the Moses Cleveland trees project? Was through the Forest City Working Group? Margeaux Apple 31:58 Correct. So at the time, the two co chairs of the Forest City working group, so in like, winter 2021, it was Cathi Lehn, who works for the city of Cleveland, who's a fabulous person. And then Courtney Blaschke, who was the community forestry director for Holden, and I think she tapped me at that time. There's nothing better than, like, a big tree, right? Like, just like, there's just such a power to it. And just finding all of these different ones … it was just…it was really fun February, yeah. Doug Still 32:34 Now, how did they train you to do that? Or did you kind of come up with the methodology? Or is it just as simple as taking a list and dividing it up? Margeaux Apple 32:43 They divvied it up by community or by like kind of city limits. So the Moses Cleveland trees are not just in the city of Cleveland, but in the county of Cuyahoga… Doug Still 32:54 Right. Margeaux Apple 32:55 …in Cuyahoga County, right? And so, I was given three lists initially: I was given a list for the city of Cleveland, Parma and Parma heights, which are like just south kind of southwest of the city. Each list had, you know, it was an Excel spreadsheet of, you know, species names, the Quercus alba, a location, and some of them had like the DBH’s that were measured in 1946, 1976, and 1980s. Doug Still 33:30 For those who are wondering, DBH means diameter at breast height, which is how trees are measured, four and a half feet above the ground. Margeaux Apple 33:38 Some of them had notes. The data was very like… some of it was really good, some of it was really sparse, some of it was real detective work, like it was the case where you know, it would say, on Esterbrook playground, and you're like, “well there's no such thing as Esterbrook playground in today – like – today.” I went to like the archival maps of the city and found where Esterbrook playground was, because, you know, there were situations where you wanted to say, “Okay, I think this is the tree, but maybe something didn't match. Maybe the DBH was smaller than it was in 1984.” …There were a few where you had to do some detective work. But for the most part, it was pretty straightforward. You know, you got an address, and you drove to that address, and you knew. You knew before even approaching the address. Doug Still 34:32 I see it. Margeaux Apple 33:34 Yeah, if there's this huge canopy, you're like, “Oh my god, it's here!” Or if you didn't see it, you're like, “Dang, you know, it's, it's not here.” Doug Still 34:43 Right, right. And so what information did you collect? Margeaux Apple 34:46 So I collected species first and foremost, most of them were true to name. Doug Still 34:51 How's your tree ID? Margeaux Apple 34:53 I love tree ID. Yeah. Doug Still 34:56 We'd get along. Margeaux Apple 34:58 It seems like it, yeah. [Doug and Margeaux laugh] Yeah, so I would collect that information. So, taxa, I would collect where, and I would give an address, but I would also… I looked up like city parcel so that information is consistent. Doug Still 35:14 Right. Margeaux Apple 35:15 So that city parcel… I tried to take coordinates… I did, I took coordinates on most of them. So GPS coordinates, I took the DBH. And then I would write any, like, conditional evaluation. So I'd say, it's in good condition, it's fair, it's in poor, and then I try to kind of qualify that information. So say, you know, significant branch dieback, you know, IV up the crown, just anything that was kind of seem pertinent to give somebody kind of a picture of what was going on with this tree. I took pictures of every one too. Doug Still 35:53 Which site that you visited was your favorite? Margeaux Apple 35:56 Well, I think I'm biased a bit because Lakeview cemetery is just, like, just in general, it is a absolutely gorgeous, you know, place just to be; you get a view of the lake from the higher elevations, you have people like James D. Rockefeller, Garfield, the president Garfield, Jeptha Wade, like you have all these really prestigious, I guess, people buried there. And then you have 100% success rate, or retention rate, for the Moses Cleveland trees that have been there since 1946. Doug Still 36:34 That's amazing. And it makes sense because very little changes in a historic cemetery. Things are stable, right? Over time. Margeaux Apple 36:42 Stable, you have a crew of arborists or you know, you have hired arborists to take good care of the trees. I mean, the crazy thing is, though, Doug, like you have the, you know, the bole of the tree, and then maybe two feet from it, a grave, and you're like, they were digging down six feet, like right at the base of this tree. And yet here is this 300 year old white oak with a, you know, five foot diameter, and it seems fine. Like it doesn't seem like it skipped a beat. In the summer of 2021, we led, myself and Roy, led tree tours in Lakeview of the Moses Cleveland trees. So that was like part of the celebration. Doug Still 37:27 Oh that’s great! What's, like, what's the most fantastic tree in the cemetery? Margeaux Apple 37:31 One of the Moses Cleveland trees! There is this white oak there that I was introduced to first in January 2020, by the, then, like, senior horticulturalists of the cemetery. And she showed it to me because it was her favorite tree on the grounds. And I've been going to the cemetery since I was a kid, and I had never been to this part, and I’d never seen this tree, or at least I don't remember it. And it is just like such a presence. It's got a five foot diameter of a base, it's got these beautiful branches that kind of swooped down. And so when I measured it, it was 100 feet tall, and this was in the summer of 2021, or 2020, and it was 117 feet in spread. Doug Still 38:20 Wow. Margeaux Apple 38:21 It was just massive. Like it's just so beautiful. Doug Still 38:24 They can really spread out in the open. Margeaux Apple 38:28 Yeah, and it's just amazing to see. So that, I mean, without a doubt, that is my favorite tree, possibly, like, period, end of statement. Doug Still 38:38 Do you have any unusual stories of visiting someone's house or an interaction with, you know, one of the owners? Margeaux Apple 38:45 I had a few interactions. I remember one woman she asked, you know, she's like, “So who's taking care of this tree?” And I'm like, “Girl, like it's on your property. That's how this works.” [Doug laughs] I'm like, I know, it's like, because you know, you have this huge tree and you have these bows that go right over their house. Like, you know, if one of those went out… that would be just your whole house, right? And that’s not, as you probably know, it's not cheap to maintain these big trees. Doug Still 39:16 No, no. Maybe she was looking to… maybe she thought there was some sort of historic preservation funds for these trees. Maybe there should be. Margeaux Apple 39:24 I know, and I'm like, I wish there was something like that, because I feel like it would make people more inclined and not so, like, skeptical of these trees or whatever. But this was in February 2021 when we were going around so COVID was still very present. And so I remember one woman we were looking for a tree… I think she was in Parma or Parma heights. So we went up to her door and kind of… you go up to the door and then you back up, you know, as you do in COVID times, but um… I was like, “I think there might be one of these Moses Cleveland trees…” I explained the story you know… she's like, “Well, both my son and I have COVID right now, but if you want, like, just go around back and look and see if your tree is there.” And I thought that was really sweet of her. Like let these, you know, two trolling tree searchers just… Doug Still 40:18 Right. We're not gonna get near you but knock yourself out. Margeaux Apple 40:20 Yeah, yeah, people were very curious. One fella, he was like, “I know the tree you're looking for. It's not here anymore, but I can give you… I have the plaque.” And then we went into his backyard, and you could see this new grass patch that was probably, you know, five feet in diameter. And he…and so we took a picture of holding up the plaque in front of the, kind of, blank slate. But then he said that there was a second – this is a white oak – there was another white oak that was pretty, pretty large in diameter, not far from it. And he's like, “I'm pretty sure that's, you know, an offspring of it.” Which is good to see. Doug Still 40:57 I was also put in touch with Michael Melampy, another inventory volunteer in charge of finding Moses Cleveland trees in Berea, and its surrounding towns, which is southwest of Cleveland. Michael Melampy 41:09 Well, I'm a retired professor of biology. I taught biology at the undergraduate level for over three years, mostly at Baldwin Wallace University in Berea, Ohio. And I taught ecology, evolution, vertebrate natural history course, and then … some courses, primarily for non majors that dealt with environmental issues. Doug Still 41:36 When did you first become aware of the Moses Cleveland trees? Were they well known before this project occurred? Michael Melampy 41:44 No. But I knew… There was a retired professor of biology at B.W., who lived about a block away from me, who had one of the Moses Cleveland trees in his yard. And he had a plaque on it. And he sort of explained to me a little bit about how he got involved. Doug Still 42:07 He was already… he was involved in a project? Michael Melampy 42:11 He had applied to have his tree listed as a Moses Cleveland tree. With this, I believe this was called, Early Settlers Association. Doug Still 42:21 I see. So he had this plaque. He knew it was one of them, and wanted to make sure it was on the list, and then it was located. Michael Melampy 42:28 He was, yeah. He was responsible for getting his tree recognized as a Moses Cleveland tree. Doug Still 42:35 But did you have a particular ecological interest in these trees? As a professor? Michael Melampy 42:41 I was interested in finding out what kind of trees were still with us. Starting from the, well, the initial cohort was labeled, designated back in the 1940s, but then, subsequent trees had been added at different times in the 1970s, and 1980s. And I was just interested to see what kinds of… of those initial trees which ones were still standing? Which species seemed to have the greatest longevity, the greatest resilience, in other words? Given that the environment around them was constantly changing, and especially being increasingly urbanized in one way or another. Doug Still 43:28 I asked him about his own interactions with residents. Michael Melampy 43:32 And then I would have to ask permission, of course, from property owners to measure their trees and just examine the trees, if it still existed. I mean, the first step would be to contact the owner and say, “Do you have an old tree? That might be a Moses Cleveland tree?” Doug Still 43:51 Were many people aware of what that even was? Michael Melampy 43:54 Most of the people that had them on their property were aware, yeah. The percentage that still had plaques was probably… I'd say less than half of them still had plaques. But most of them were aware that they had an old tree that had been designated as a Moses Cleveland Tree. Doug Still 44:14 Right, so they're probably happy to tap back into this and have their tree recognized. Michael Melampy 44:19 I wasn't able to contact everyone. But most of the people that I was able to contact were more than happy to let me, if the tree still existed, let me look at it. And some people who had lost their trees would explain to me what happened to the tree. In a couple of cases, I was never able to find out if the tree existed or not because it wasn't able to get onto the property Doug Still 44:47 When the trees weren't there, according to the list, did you notice a pattern? Were they new houses? was there… How would you ascribe the loss of these trees? Michael Melampy 45:00 It varied a lot. Sometimes it looked to me like, like in the case of the tree I just described, the old tree had just died for various reasons. In other cases there were clear indications of development having gone on. Doug Still 45:20 Jumping back to Roy, I asked him what the data told him about the Moses Cleveland trees, and about the Cleveland urban forest in general. Roy Larick 45:29 What became quite clear is the goals of designating Moses Cleveland trees changed quite a bit. Arthur Williams wanted to have the native forest represented by these trees. It was clear that some of these minor species could not be found anymore. From 23 species, it came down to… for these 143, designated by the early settlers Association, there were seven total species represented, and four of those were oak species. Doug Still 46:05 Wow, that's quite a reduction. Roy Larick 46:06 That's a reduction. Yep. Doug Still 46:09 How many of the original 153 trees were remaining, after you completed your survey? Roy Larick 46:15 I want to say 40. Doug Still 46:19 Wow, approximately a quarter we're left. Roy Larick 46:21 The latest figures are 77 trees, Moses Cleveland trees, out of the 296. There are 77 that still stand. Doug Still 46:31 What do you think these findings tell us about how the urban forest is changing? Roy Larick 46:37 I'm going to recast that a bit, and say, how we are changing the urban forest, how humans are changing. And what we can learn from these. And I think the most important thing that comes from the Moses Cleveland trees, whether they're standing or not, is that the oaks dominated. You know, the oaks are the long lived nice looking trees. Oaks grow, to some extent, everywhere. But there are areas that prefer one species or another, or to put it the other way around, there are places where a certain species of oaks can adapt well, and others where those same species don't. If you step back and look at the associations, the normal associations of those oaks, with other forest members… with other tree species… when you get to areas that have a good representation of Moses Cleveland oaks, you can reconstruct, beyond the oaks themselves, what tree species were there. Those patterns then become a guide for how we can reforest along more natural lines. Let's start the process by understanding what grew there prehistorically, and what of those prehistoric species still make sense to put there currently, as anchors for an urban forest? Doug Still 48:13 Why do you think so many of the trees were lost? Let's just development it: Cleveland expands since World War II? Roy Larick 48:23 That's right, especially since World War II. But what has done in the bulk of the Moses Cleveland trees is road widening, underground utilities and overhead utilities. That improvement – infrastructure improvement – certainly carried on through the 1990s. And only now, I think, are we starting to second guess that and to try to understand means for people moving around without the tyranny of the car. Doug Still 48:53 Do you think this project, though, will help raise the profile of old trees in Cleveland and the surrounding area? Roy Larick 49:00 I believe the best way that we're going to do this is to take on for a third time, a third chapter, the designation of new heritage trees or legacy trees. And we're not sure what we're going to call these, whether it will be Moses Cleveland trees, I'm not sure, because the trees we designate, not all of them are going to be those that are 250 years old, but they will be distinctive trees. Those trees that are of species that we want to promote, those trees that are just those that people care about. Doug Still 49:39 Sort of a broader heritage tree program. Roy Larick 49:42 That's right. Doug Still 49:43 After working on the project, I asked all three guests what they thought the Moses Cleveland trees mean to Cleveland and the surrounding area. Michael Melampy 49:52 It's interesting. They represent to me anyway, a link back to the… back to the founding… founding, if you want to say that…back to the pre settlement conditions of this area. Margeaux Apple 50:07 It was really fun to see kind of the community, and I guess a subset of the community, you know, celebrating these trees and congregating around…our natural heritage in Cleveland. And that was really cool. And we had…a celebration on, you know, the 225th anniversary at Forest City Brewery. And it was just like a beautiful event where we were just there to kind of celebrate our natural heritage in Cleveland. Doug Still 50:38 That’s perfect that it was at the Forest City Brewery. Margeaux Apple 50:41 I know, right? But yeah, so there was that, which was just like, very fun. And like the tree tours were a great opportunity to just meet people from the community who are interested in the same things as you and to discuss, you know, tree stories, because every time, you know, you talk about these trees, people bring up their big tree in their backyard or things like that. It just made me so badly wish for a time machine to see what the area looked like, you know, in the 1700s, in the 1600s, whatever. You see these huge trees that were probably just little saplings at that time, and like, it's just a world away, isn't it? And to like, really celebrate the fact that we still have these little beacons into the past. Roy Larick 51:33 They mean, environmental stability. They mean that in the sense of desire, more than statement of fact. [music] You see an old tree, a beautiful old tree, and you think it's been there forever. And it's still there. And if it's healthy, it looks like it could be there forever more. So the Moses Cleveland trees represent, once again, a kind of stability, where it's lacking. Doug Still 52:04 Great answer. Anything else you want to add? Roy Larick 52:07 Once again, trees represent elderflora. They are timeless. You look at them and you enter into tree time, so to speak. Doug Still 52:18 Tree time. I love it. Roy Larick 52:20 Tree time, right. Doug Still 52:23 The Moses Cleveland trees were ecological bellwethers for a shrinking tree canopy. At the same time, their remaining numbers have a symbolic legacy, and point the way to a larger, healthier urban forest in the future. Clevelanders are already demonstrating the hard work and awareness to make that happen. I'd like to thank each one of my wonderful guests Roy Larick, Margeaux Apple and Michael Melampy for sharing their knowledge and experiences. I raise an inventory clipboard in your honor, and to all of the people that organized and contributed to the Moses Cleveland Tree Project. Thank you tree lovers for joining me again today. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram for photos and updates and general tree stuff. The show's theme song is written by arborist Dee Lee. I'm Doug still, and I'll see you next time on This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Imperial Pine Bonsai (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 15 Published April 27, 2023 [Music] Doug Still: [00:08] When you make your way through the exhibition space at the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum within the U.S. National Arboretum, you encounter one spectacular bonsai tree after the next. Each one is different and beautiful. Their harmonious shapes suggest a windswept landscape or an ancient story just out of reach. Its most famous resident, the Yamaki Pine, is almost 400 years old and survived the 1945 bombing of Hiroshima. [music] I was given a tour by Andy Bello, a Museum Specialist and new friend, who took time out of his busy schedule to show me the highlights, and there were a lot of them. So, it's saying something that the last bonsai on the circuit piqued my interest the most. It's a large, powerful Japanese red pine that's been in training since 1795. It was donated by the Japanese Imperial family and, according to Andy, is the only bonsai to ever leave the emperor's personal collection. I had to know more about how it got here. To find out, I spoke to Kathleen Emerson-Dell, the curator of exhibitions at the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum. The story features the vision and persistence of a past arboretum director, Dr. John Creech, who worked behind the scenes during a key moment in American and Japanese diplomacy. I also spoke to curator, Michael James, about the challenges of preserving this historic bonsai tree, the imperial pine. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] The regal 228-year-old imperial pine resides in its own fenced-in display area, silhouetted in front of a white wall. It sits in a weathered ceramic container as old as the tree itself, elevated by a large black stone floating in a sea of grass and ferns. It is asymmetrical but balanced, strong but energized. Its coarse bark gives way to clouds of refined needles. It is everything you imagine a bonsai should be, classically formed in every sense. There's no one better to tell the story of the imperial pine coming to America than Kathleen Emerson-Dell, who goes by her nickname Ked. She is the curator of exhibitions at the museum, as well as the manager of the archives and digital image database for the U.S. National Arboretum - a horticulturist, art historian, and archivist, all wrapped into one. In actuality, the bonsai story includes the initial formation of the entire collection. We dove right in. So, Ked, thanks for joining me today on This Old Tree. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [03:23] Well, I'm glad to be here. Doug Still: [03:25] I was hoping you could tell me about just the origins of the collection, and how did that occur, and when did that happen. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [03:32] Right. It's a wonderful story that goes back to a fabulous director of the National Arboretum, Dr. John Creech, who had just been named director of the U.S. National Arboretum in 1973. The call went out to all of the agencies, all of the executive branch agencies for ideas to celebrate the American Bicentennial that was coming up in 1976. So, Dr. Creech, having been a plant explorer in Japan for some time during his career, was remembering many trips to Japan where he had seen bonsai. It was just something in passing. It wasn't his main-- he was mostly out in the wilds of Japan looking for azaleas and crepe myrtle and collecting seed. Doug Still: [04:33] He was up in the mountains? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [04:34] He was in the mountains a lot. But when he came back into the towns, his interpreter that he was with, who was also a botanist, sort of introduced him to bonsai. Over the years, he had gotten to know some of the people in the bonsai world, and he thought, "Boy, wouldn't this make a fabulous gift if the Japanese could donate a few bonsai to the U.S. National Arboretum so that we could promote an understanding of beauty and botany at the same time?" Because that's what it's all about. Doug Still: [05:16] And at that time, were bonsai as popular as they are now in the United States? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [05:22] Not so much. There were a few bonsai clubs, and there were some associations. It was generally viewed as a hobby. A lot of retired people would be interested in it. When people came back from the war after World War II, they had been exposed to bonsai, the military, and the people who were stationed in Japan to help with the rebuilding. And so, they brought home knowledge of this, and some of them pursued it, but there were very few teachers. Yuji Yoshimura came to the States in the 60s, I think, and he came to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden and began teaching classes there, as well as taking care of a small collection they had and helping to build it. Doug Still: [06:12] In fact, Dr. Creech also invited Mr. Yoshimura to the National Arboretum during his first year to help acquire a bonsai from a local nursery in Maryland, a boxwood. They held a bonsai pruning workshop together, which was well attended, demonstrating a burgeoning public interest in the arboretum developing its own collection. They could do this without losing sight of the primary mission within the USDA to conduct research and promote better practices in agriculture and the nursery industry. So, Dr. Creech was looking to raise the profile of bonsai? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [06:47] He was, he was absolutely doing that. He thought this would be a fabulous position for the U.S. National Arboretum to be promoting this. Doug Still: [06:57] So, he had this idea when he was in Japan then? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [07:01] In 1973, he had the idea that maybe the Japanese-- he put the question to some Japanese friends he had and said, "Do you think that Japan would be interested in a small gift, a donation of some bonsai trees so that we could just feature them?" So, it sort of started from this small idea, a few small bonsai. So, in 1973, he had this idea. He sent it up-- He also had the idea to maybe do, like, a national herb garden. He had a whole list of ideas. And he sent it up to the Secretary of Agriculture. And basically, they said, "Nah, we're not interested." He heard nothing about it. So, he still pursued it though. He thought, "You know, "I think there's a way to do this. Even though it's not sort of official, maybe it can be more from the Japanese side rather than that it's offered, and we'll see what happens, that we won't reject it, that the department won't reject it." So, he started working a little bit more from the Japanese side to see if they would sort of take up this idea and see what they could come up with. And so, it gradually developed over about a year, the back and forth. They wanted to know how would the trees get to America. At the time, Dr. Creech thought that they were working on an idea that may be an empty US Cargo planes could fly them back to the States because oftentimes the cargo planes are delivering things to the embassy and to Japan. Doug Still: [08:50] And they come back empty. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [08:51] And they're coming back empty. So, he thought this was a great idea. Well, ultimately, at almost the last minute, it was rejected at a very high level, at the Pentagon. They said, "No, we can't do this," even though Dr. Creech pointed out that, "Well, you know the early naval ships used to do this all the time, that they would bring back botanical specimens from all over the world." But they weren't buying it. They said, "No, no, it'll look bad." It is what it is. Doug Still: [09:23] Just how it looks? They didn’t--? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [09:25] I think that was it, that they felt that regulations had changed and that this was not official US Business or something. But it kind of adds to the drama of the story, this whole pressure. You could feel it. You can feel it in Dr. Creech's letters that he's writing and in his reminiscences. He published a small book afterward, long after he had retired, a little booklet called The Bonsai Saga. And he's very dramatic about everything. [laughter] Doug Still: [09:59] Well, it sounds like he went through a lot. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [10:01] He did go through a lot, but it meant a lot to him, you could tell. So, over the course of this year of planning and how it grew. He had assured the Japanese that we would find a way to get the trees here, and so the Japanese on their part-- and when I say the Japanese, at this point, he's dealing with the Nippon Bonsai Association, which is the Japan Bonsai Association. They are an organization of all of the Bonsai growers and nurseries and sellers. Doug Still: [10:40] Where are they based? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [10:41] And they're based in Tokyo. And he's reassuring-- So, in 1974 is when the Nippon Bonsai Association felt that this was going to be taken seriously. The idea of the gift and that they would start to try to find funding on their side. So, they went to their government, the Japanese Diet, and started talking to people about this. They wanted to get funding from the government because this was going to be a diplomatic gift. Unfortunately, the funding for that year had already been decided, so it was going to have to be put off what the government was going to give them for a little bit. And so, they went to the Japan Foundation. They got funding from the Japan Foundation and from some other sources, I understand. So, it was becoming more of a reality because they needed to have money in order to put it together because it was going to be quite costly to sort of gather-- So, for transportation, gathering all these trees together, repotting them, building crates for them, getting them to the airport. Doug Still: [11:54] Yeah, it was much more of a serious endeavor than-- [crosstalk] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [11:58] It was. Doug Still: [11:58] --Dr. Creech thought at first, wasn't it? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [12:00] Absolutely, absolutely. He was surprised. Doug Still: [12:03] They have to be protected. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [12:05] And as they grew bigger, they needed a bigger plane. They needed more space. Originally, when no-- it's interesting. In 1974, Dr. Creech got to stop off and actually meet with them in person because Dr. Creech was in the first delegation to go to the People's Republic of China. It was a delegation of biological scientists. So, he was able to-- this was after China opened to the rest of the world after Nixon went there, and he was able to do a stopover in Japan. And they were able to ask a lot of questions face-to-face with a translator. They had concerns about bare rooting, which they did not want to do. Doug Still: [12:51] The United States had instituted strict quarantine rules around the importation of plants since 1910 when the first batch of cherry trees gifted and planted at the Tidal Basin were infested and eventually burned. Much of the subsequent concern centered around insects or diseases within the soil, arriving with new plants. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [13:13] But it was devastating for bonsai because to bare root a bonsai is to put an incredible amount of stress on it. And also, they had to be sanitized with all sorts of chemicals. In 1960, someone had bought a very important bonsai in Japan to bring back to the United States and donate to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden to their collection. It was a very famous tree. It had a name and it was called Fudo, and it did not survive. Doug Still: [13:51] Yeah. When you're dealing with something possibly a couple of hundred years old, you need to let it be and not disturb it as much as possible and it's already a traumatic experience to ship it around the world. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [14:07] So, that was something that worried people. People did not want to donate trees to a project where it might possibly die. Dr. Creech was able to work with the person who was the head of quarantine services, and they worked out a deal that the trees did not have to be bare rooted. They needed to be inspected in Japan before they came over. They had to remain in quarantine in the United States at one of the quarantine stations for over a year. Doug Still: [14:42] So, if they're looking forward to the Bicentennial, he's getting this done just in time? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [14:48] Y es, absolutely. It's amazing that he just kept pushing. He kept going forward. I think he did not realize how much was involved, or he wouldn't have even started. [laughter] Doug Still: [15:01] Dr. Creech worked out all the agreements between the US Government and the Nippon Bonsai Association, the repotting, crating, shipping, quarantine, and future cultural practices which allowed the funding to fall into place. But then, they had to find and select the bonsai trees with the Bicentennial deadline looming. When we come back from a quick break, Ked tells us about how the trees were chosen and the surprise involvement of the Japanese Imperial Family. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to this old tree. [music] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [15:55] If they had to select and collect from everywhere they went all over Japan. They talked to everyone. Doug Still: [16:03] How many did they find? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:04] So, what they wanted to do was they wanted to get 50 trees to represent the 50 states of the United States of America. Doug Still: [16:12] Perfect. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:15] T hey weren't matching a tree to a state. It was just the symbolic number of 50. That had a lot of importance. So, they were looking for 50 trees to pull together, and they wanted a range of species. They wanted from north to south. They wanted from all over Japan. They wanted to represent the variety of trees that are used in bonsai in Japan because not every tree is good at becoming a bonsai. [laughs] Doug Still: [16:43] So, the Nippon Bonsai Association put the word out, and they were mainly collecting from private collections? Looking for donations? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:51] Yes, they were looking for donations, but then they needed some money because they needed to pay some businesses. When you have a bonsai nursery, you are in the business, you care for bonsai, and you also create and sell bonsai. In order to compensate some of these businesses, they wanted to raise money to do that. So, if they picked out a tree, they would be able to give some compensation. Doug Still: [17:20] So, there were some from businesses as well? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [17:22] There were some. But the business, I mean, these were some of the best bonsai growers in the country as well. Some people donated their trees. Some people got some compensation. Then, on the other hand, in order to get funding from the government, they wanted to include a number of high-ranking politicians as the donors of the trees so that the name of the donor would be the name of this important person. Now, we never got a breakdown on exactly what category each tree fell into, which ones were outright donations from the person who owned it versus-- because some people were owners. It's very interesting. In Japan, the bonsai world is a little bit like the horse racing world in this country. You can have an owner of a famous horse, who has nothing to do with the training of that horse. Doug Still: [18:30] I see. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:30] Pays for the training. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:31] So, a lot of the famous bonsai owned by wealthy businessmen in Japan are actually stabled at bonsai nurseries and are cared for by very important bonsai masters. And then, these trees are entered into competitions for awards. [laughs] Doug Still: [18:50] Interesting. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:51] So, it's very different from the bonsai world in America. Doug Still: [18:55] And that's still happening? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:56] Yes, it is still happening. It's the model of how things are done there. But a lot of these owners appreciate good bonsai, but they don't actually work on their own bonsai. Doug Still: [19:10] I imagine there was a well-kept provenance for each bonsai that came over. Can you trace the owners for each one? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [19:18] Right, as I just said, we don't know specifically beyond the names that were given to us that were attached to each bonsai. We cannot be absolutely sure which ones came from whom unless it is a bonsai name that we know. So, other than that, we got a list of the trees, where they were from, what province they had come from, and the age in training, because that's how bonsai are measured. Some bonsai come from the wild. They're collected in the wild. They might be a scraggly old tree growing on the top of a mountain that could be a couple of hundred years old. And so, one tradition is to go out and collect interesting specimens that have already been "deformed" by nature. They have been stressed, they are survivors. And oftentimes, these old craggy trees show the results of their survival. It's like the bristlecone pines in the west, where you have a lot of dead wood and then you have this live trunk. Doug Still: [20:36] That's interesting. So, they're already old. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [20:39] They're already old, but we don't know how old they are. In bonsai, we count the years as years in training. So, that's what we count. So, you could have a tree that you start as a seedling. That is actually going to reflect the true age of that tree, its years in training. So, we got a little bit of that information, just a little bit but not much, because I think at the time, they didn't realize how important that information would be. In Japan, it was just known. In the long history of these trees, they move around a bit. It might have been created by one bonsai master, and then it goes to another one and another one. I mean, they sort of move around. Doug Still: [21:28] So, there were these 50 trees that they found, but then there were three more added? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [21:34] Right. Doug Still: [21:35] Could you talk about those three? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [21:36] This is where the story gets interesting. Dr. Creech arrives in Japan in 1975. In March, he is there to sort of oversee the final processes. We knew at that point, 50 trees were coming. He did not know the sizes of the trees. When I looked back through the old records, there had been several lists that had been sent to Dr. Creech for approval. They did not include sizes. They were only species. So evidently, when Dr. Creech arrived in, like, halfway through March-- by the end of March, he has to leave with the trees. So, halfway through March, they drive him from the airport to the Nippon Bonsai headquarters where they've gathered the trees. And he said, "I was so jet lagged, but I got out of the car and my eyes were just-- I couldn't believe what I was seeing. These were significant trees. These were not small trees." Doug Still: [22:43] He was probably like, "Oh, boy," as well. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [22:47] No, what he was really thinking was, "How much was it?" $2,300 had been allocated for space in a Pan Am cargo plane to bring home these 50 small trees. And he immediately thought $2,300 is not going to do it. So, he's on the phone with Pan Am this whole time and he says, "I think they're bigger. I think you need to come look at this." [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [23:16] So, the Pan Am representative comes and looks and goes, "Okay," and so then it goes up to $9000. Dr. Creech is telegraphing back to the States and going, "Look, this is going on." And then, it went up again. And then when they actually started building the crates that went around them, then Dr. Creech said, "It doesn't matter what they say, they got to come." Doug Still: [23:44] Ship first, bill later. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [23:47] So, fortunately, Pan Am only charged for the cost of the flight. So, they were not even charging what they would charge retailer or someone to move goods. Doug Still: [24:00] Nice. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [24:01] It ended up being $19,000. When Dr. Creech arrived back in the country, he said, "I didn't know if I even had a job, if I was going to be fired because of this," because he said, "I had to go ahead with it." And fortunately, he didn't lose his job. It had become a big PR thing. This excitement generated about it, so they couldn't fire him. [laughs] I don't know if he was exaggerating that or not. But when he arrived, he found out that the imperial collections, there were three imperial bonsai collections. So, there was the emperor's collection, which was held at the imperial palace in Tokyo, and then there were collections in his two brothers' families, there were collections. So, one was the Chichibu Family and the other was the Takamatsu Family. Sometime in the fall of 1974, the imperial family was planning for the emperor to make his first and only trip to the United States. Doug Still: [25:16] What they were planning was a big deal, a watershed moment in the history of US and Japanese relations. This would not only be the first visit by Emperor Hirohito three decades after the devastation of World War II, it would be the first visit to America by a Japanese emperor, ever. It would be a moment of healing. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [25:37] Because of the confluence of his trip to America, which was planned for October of 1975, in the run-up to that is when the Imperial family thought it would be a good idea to include gifts from the emperor to the United States through this vehicle, that he could just piggyback onto this. Because whenever there are state visits, there's always gifts exchanged, significant gifts. And so, this was thought to be something really special that the emperor could do. So, there was one tree chosen from each of the Imperial collections, and the tree from the emperor's collection was the Japanese red pine, Pinus densiflora. It was in training since 1795-- Doug Still: [26:34] Incredible. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [26:34] --is the information that we got. So, it's over 200 years now. It's like 228 years old now or in training for 228 years. Of course, it was probably older than that, but we don't know. So, Dr. Creech didn't really know about this until-- I don't have any records that he knew about it before he arrived in Japan. The trees from the Imperial collections were not included in the exhibit that was held. There was a big dedication ceremony that was held at the Otani Hotel. Thousands of people were invited from the Western diplomatic community that was in Japan at the time, plus the whole Nippon Bonsai Association, everyone who had donated a tree, everyone whose name was associated with this, people from the Japanese government, the conservatives and liberals. According to Dr. Creech, he said it's the first time the conservatives and the liberals were in one room for a big event where they weren't arguing with each other. [laughs] Doug Still: [27:42] Right. Well, trees bring people together. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [27:45] So, exactly. So, it was a big deal. The Empress trees were not included in that ceremony. They arrived. We have some film of them arriving at the Nippon Bonsai Association right during the time that Dr. Creech was there for them to get repotted back into their same pots and crated along with the other 50 trees. Doug Still: [28:13] So, he found out when he got to Japan? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:17] That's what the records tell us, that he did not know of this. Now, I don't know if he had heard something, but nothing was made official until he was there. I think they were trying to keep it on the down low. Doug Still: [28:30] What a score. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:32] Yeah, it would be interesting. I don't think the Japanese people knew until it happened. Doug Still: [28:38] I wonder if there's security reasons. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:40] Well, that may be, that some people may have been very upset to hear that this was happening. It was still a time-- I went to Japan in the 1980s, and there were still diehard nationalists who were pro emperor, still considered the emperor a god, that they were a thorn in the side of democracy and could possibly make trouble. Doug Still: [29:12] Right, and just to offer up something of such cultural value-- Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:16] Exactly. Doug Still: [29:18] --for some people it might have been difficult. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:20] So, that may have been one of the reasons why it was kept kind of quiet. Doug Still: [29:25] Now, did the emperor have a hand in choosing this bonsai? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:29] We have no idea. We have absolutely no idea. It's very interesting. The emperor, his interest in life was marine biology. It's often said if he were not emperor, he would have been a marine biologist. [laughs] So, that was his very serious-- he devoted time every day almost to sort of keep up with the field, to read papers. He had his own laboratory at the palace. He loved nature. He walked every day on the palace grounds. Loved the forested area of the palace grounds. So, we don't know the extent of his interest in bonsai. Bonsai were used ceremonially in the palace. There are hundreds of trees in the collection. A lot of them are larger trees because of their sort of state importance, that they need to hold a position-- Doug Still: [30:38] In a large hall, maybe? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [30:40] In a large hall, on either side of an entrance, along pathways they're leading to the palace. Doug Still: [30:49] So, the size of this bonsai is not unusual in the imperial collection? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [30:55] Right. There are more of this size in the Imperial collection than in any other collection in Japan. They also have a lot of more regular size two-footers, three-footers, they have the whole range. But they have a lot of these sort of that had been in the imperial collection for possibly hundreds of years because they were used ceremonially, and everything is pomp and circumstance when it comes to the emperor. The might of the empire is shown through these impressive trees. And what's interesting is this red pine, not only is it large, it is in a style that is called an informal upright, which means the trunk has S curves in it. A big, gentle curve and then another curve at the top, which is a very relaxed kind of informal rather than a formal upright would be totally rigid, straight up and down, which is how these would grow in nature if there were no prevailing winds constantly or if it wasn't being buffeted or beaten down with snow. It had been trained into this shape and what's interesting, because I'm an art historian of Japanese art, this type of tree is used on the stage of Noh performances. A painting of this tree, a large red pine with a curving trunk behind it and a big, massive trunk. And this was sort of standard for a Noh performance which is performed outside, usually on temple grounds. Doug Still: [32:50] So, they might have had that in mind? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [32:52] They might have had that in mind. But also, when you look at pictures from the Daimyo era, the feudal era in Japan, when shoguns were in control of the country. They often in their reception halls, big halls with tatami mat, and a little raised area at the front where the Daimyo would sit with his top retainers on either side. Behind him, usually painted on sliding screens, would be a giant tree just like this, a giant curved trunk. It was supposed to communicate the power of this shogun. Doug Still: [33:39] So, I can only imagine in the spring of '75, when they are selecting these three trees from the three imperial collections, that they ask the bonsai masters to choose one. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [33:54] Hmm. Doug Still: [33:55] I can see that going down, and I can imagine how that must have felt to them after spending their career caring for a tree. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [34:05] Yeah, they were either greatly honored that this tree was going to go to America and would represent perhaps the emperor in America, that were honoring them. That would be the best possible way they thought of it. Or perhaps they were a little worried, like what do these Americans know about taking care of these bonsai? And that was a worry of a lot of the Japanese, the Bonsai people, that they had said they agreed that they would come over and check on the trees to make sure everything was going well, that they would sort of help the curator in America. We got other Japanese-- John Naka came to help out. Yuji Yoshimura. It was with those assurances that people felt better, that there were going to be people there who really understood while the curator was learning. And just he threw himself into it, Bob Drechsler, who had known nothing about bonsai up to that point. He had been working with one of the tree breeders at the Arboretum, and he expressed an interest when Dr. Creech said, "We're going to have to find a curator to be in charge of this whole collection." So, he absolutely loved that and stayed with the collection for, golly, a long time. I think he was in the late 90s, he retired, so he was with the collection for quite a number of years. Doug Still: [35:46] Affectionately known as “Bonsai Bob,” Bob Drechsler was the first curator of the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. But I had a chance to chat with the current curator, Michael James, about the legacy of caring for the Imperial Pine and the 52 other historic Bonsai donated by Japan. And then, we'll hear more from Ked about their reception in Washington. Coming up after the break. [music] Doug Still: [36:31] I spoke to Ked a lot about the history of the imperial pine, but I was wondering, I wanted to ask you, in caring for it, what are its special needs? Michael James: [36:40] Well, the red pine in general, it needs water, but relatively speaking, it can be on the drier side. Doug Still: [36:50] This is Michael James, who's been a curator at the museum since 2018 and who started as a volunteer back in 2001 in order to study the art of bonsai. Michael James: [37:01] But our imperial pine is four and a half feet tall, so it's a big bonsai. Still a small tree, but it's a big bonsai in a container that is only about 2ft deep. So, there's not a lot of soil in that container for all the foliage that it has. Doug Still: [37:21] Right. So, water management, very important? Michael James: [37:24] It's the most important thing that you can do for any bonsai, after you find that place, that setting, or that microclimate where the tree is receiving enough sun and shelter from wind and things like that. Yeah, bonsai is just so connected to the environment that the trees are growing. Doug Still: [37:49] I asked him how he balances the horticultural versus the artistic aspects of caring for a bonsai. Michael James: [37:56] When it comes to bonsai or general landscaping and gardening, the horticulture has to come first. It's more important to have a healthy tree than to have a dead tree that looks really cool. So, really, just health alone makes the plants beautiful. But then with bonsai, they're more than just healthy. It's the negative space between the branching. It's where the branching is, it's how dense the foliage is, and where it's dense and where it's light. And all those things are just right. So, after the tree is healthy, those artistic principles can be then applied. And those artistic principles are also often related to the growth habit, the natural growth habit of that tree. Bonsai is really mimicking the way trees look in their natural landscape. Doug Still: [38:55] Right. So, you sort of adjust to how the tree is growing and work from there. Michael James: [39:01] Yeah, it's like a collaboration. There's a collaboration between plants and humans, as well as multi generations of humans because if you do it right, bonsai trees outlive the average human, any human that I know. The imperial pine, for instance, is 228 years old now. So, I've just been caring for it a fraction of that time. Doug Still: [39:29] Right. You pass it from one generation to the next. What sort of historical guidance do you have for caring for it? Do you use photos? Is there anything written or any research you've done? Michael James: [39:40] Yeah, absolutely. Here at the museum, we are trying to maintain many of these trees historically. This Japanese red pine is a classical bonsai. It has this form that is an S curve. It's about two and a half full curves. And then, the foliage has a lot of negative space in between. So, the branches, they're kind of alternating in and out. So, we have branches at the bottom that are really being shaded a lot from the branches above. And pines being apically dominant, they're putting a lot of their energy to their canopy because that's the area that's getting the most sun, and they love sun. That area has to be pruned really carefully so that enough sun does pass through the canopy that the bottom branches don't weaken and die. Doug Still: [40:42] Has its shape or look changed much over time? Michael James: [40:46] Inevitably, the trees change in shape, but in general, the style is trying to be maintained. And this is a classical bonsai, where many of the branches are coming from the outside of curves. And this tree actually has a sister tree in the imperial garden. It's still there and cared for by the Japanese imperial household. And their way, from what I've researched, is a very natural way of pruning, where really trying to add very little human intervention. You're trying to let the plant do its own thing. The branches are not necessarily growing young and youthfully, upward and straight. We're trying to make those branches have an aged look to them and meandering and tapering and all the things that make a small tree look old. But we're not adding too much wire, which is something that we will do to a lot of Japanese bonsai in the imperial household, their way of pruning is just very--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [42:00] Directional pruning? Michael James: [42:02] Directional, and it's a very old style. And the more modern way is adding a lot of wire and carving and doing a lot of different things to manipulate the tree. So, we're not doing all of that on this tree because historically, that's not how its sister is being cared for in the imperial household. Doug Still: [42:23] Interesting. So, you've got your eye on its partner as well, and how it's being trained. And so, there's some artistic communication between the two, so to speak. Michael James: [42:36] Yeah. Doug Still: Is it meant to be seen in the round or is it meant to be viewed from one side or three sides? Michael James: [42:44] Large trees like this are often flanking entrances in gardens. Now, the way it's displayed here at the museum is with a garden backdrop, a Japanese garden growing behind it. So, the viewer doesn't have the option of walking the full way around it, although it does look good from all sides. And it's in a round container, which often lends themselves to being viewed from all sides. But in our case, we just turn it twice a week, so that it receives balanced sunlight on all sides and it doesn't get too strong on one side rather than the other. But it is designed to have a front. On the weekends, the front is showing out for the viewers and the guests here at the Bonsai & Penjing Museum. That is what we feel is the most ideal side to view it. And that's because you can have a good view of the beautiful, graceful curve of the trunk line and the taper of it and the negative space in between the branches is just right. Doug Still: [43:57] Ked mentioned that sometimes there's a resting period for some trees, for health reasons or for other reasons. Could you talk about that? And then, how much of a resting period does the imperial pine receive? Michael James: [44:11] Well, the resting period is kind of almost more for the caretaker because it's a time where you stop working on the tree. Sometimes in a museum setting, you want to prune everything to perfection all the time because they're being viewed by so many people. You have to sometimes just say the best thing to do is nothing at all. And the rest time for a plant is a time of growing and strong growth. Doug Still: [44:42] It's not really rest. It's rest from cultural practices. Michael James: [44:48] Right. Yeah, cutting and tipping and pinching and all those things that are done to a bonsai to keep it in that shape. Doug Still: [44:55] Could you talk about soil replacement and just what the process is? Michael James: [45:00] This tree, being over 200 years old, has probably been repotted 40 times at least over those 200 some years. So, it has to be done. This tree stays outside year-round, and the sun breaks down the surface of the soil, watering breaks down the surface of the soil, and freezing and thawing breaks it down, too. So, we try to have very coarse, airy soil that water can just fall right down through, and the water comes right out the drainage hole in the bottom. But over time, that soil breaks down and it has to be replaced. And sometimes, just looking at the tree's leaves, they give clues and communicate whether the roots are healthy or not. There was a time when this tree was yellowing, and we really didn't know why for sure. And, well, oftentimes when everything else is being done right, it's the roots. So, we repotted, and everything looked good on the outside where the soil had been removed most frequently over past repotting's. But there was a time when we got to a point underneath the trunk, this particular repotting day, and we knew were an area that had never, or at least not for a very long time, been removed. But it was getting very close to under the trunk of the trees. That's a dangerous spot to remove for the health of it. And we took out the soil and we found an area that had been totally compacted and broken down. It was clay. That was just anaerobic. There were no roots in it. Doug Still: [46:57] Was that some of the original soil or, I don't know, pre-76 soil? Michael James: [47:02] I think it was because as were removing it, we even found shards of ceramics, old ceramics. They could have been the remnants of one of the earlier containers for this tree. Doug Still: [47:18] Wow, and when it wasn't as much smaller? Michael James: [47:20] Yes. Now, it's in an antique Chinese container that's very old, as old as the tree. Doug Still: [47:28] You've got an archaeological project, right in your bonsai collection. Michael James: [47:34] Yeah. Well, repotting is a little bit like archaeology. Doug Still: [47:38] Do you sometimes feel the weight of historical importance in your work? I mean, you have the eyes of two countries on these bonsai, in a way. Michael James: [47:47] Yeah. Well, I get two comments frequently, especially when I'm working in front of a very old tree, like the imperial pine. One is, "This must be the best job in the world." [laughter] Michael James: [48:01] And then the other is, "Wow, this must be really stressful taking care of trees that are this old." Doug Still: [48:09] Yeah, my mind went there. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [48:11] Yeah. Doug Still: [48:12] Well, thanks so much for joining me today. I learned a lot, and I love the pine. I love all of the bonsai at the museum. You are doing great work. Michael James: [48:22] Yeah, thanks. I hope anyone listening can come out and visit in person. There's no way to describe these trees. They're jaw-dropping to so many visitors. Doug Still: [48:34] Now back to Ked's story. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [48:38] Oh, the most important story. So, they got on the plane, Dr. Creech and his assistant, Chip March, who had been with him. They were in the back of the cargo plane and they just laid down amongst the bonsai and slept all the way to San Francisco where Pan Am could bring it that far. Pan Am could not do domestic flights, so they arranged for two United cargo planes. So, it was broken up into two cargo planes and they flew them across the country to Baltimore. Then, they went into quarantine in Glendale, Maryland, which is one of the quarantine stations close to the U.S. National Arboretum in Washington. And so, Bob Drechsler, the curator, moved up there to take care of them for that year, for more than a year. Doug Still: [49:30] Wow. He moved to take care of these trees for a year. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [49:33] Y es, he did. So, then the emperor is coming to America for his trip in October. Well, the trees are still in quarantine. The emperor put through a request, or his people did, that he would like to visit his tree in America in quarantine. Well, the emperor was traveling with about 50 courtiers in his pack in addition to his wife and hers and 450 Japanese journalists and TV people. Doug Still: [50:04] Wow. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [50:05] TV operators. And they were following his every move. Absolutely every move. So, it was decided by the State Department that the facility was too small to allow this entourage in to visit. So, it was decided they would give permission-- The Agriculture Department gave permission the tree could be brought to the White House for a reception. Doug Still: [50:31] I think for this, they could make an allowance. [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [50:34] Yes. So, the tree was moved. Four men had to carry the tree in a sling because the pot is really deep. The pot is about a foot and a half deep and about a foot and maybe no, it's 2ft wide, maybe 2ft deep. The tree is huge. It was heavy. The way these are moved in Japan is you have a sling that cradles it and then you have two bamboo poles that go through the sling. You have four men. Each man takes one end of one pole. When they got to the White House, they found out that they had to take it upstairs to the second floor because the reception for the emperor before the big state dinner was going to be held in the Yellow Oval Room, which was part of Ford's private area in the White House. Doug Still: [51:31] I see. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [51:31] So, Bob Drechsler and his three companions are carrying this bonsai up marble steps to the second floor. He said all he could think about was if he slipped and this tree went tumbling down these steps and the emperor is here, and that's all he was thinking about, was just putting his feet right. Doug Still: [51:54] Right. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [51:55] So, they got it there, and we actually have a picture of the Emperor and his wife, the Empress, and Mr. & Mrs. Ford gazing at the tree. The White House photographer is taking the pictures. Of course, he didn't take a picture of the tree. We just get like a little-- we get some needles in the side of the shot to show what they're looking at, and they're just very solemnly looking at it. In future trips to the White House with our trees, the photographers did much better in terms of arranging people on either side of the tree to take a picture of it. But this was the first trip to the White House of any of our trees in the collection. Many trees from the Japanese collection have gone to the White House since then for various receptions for the prime ministers mostly. So, it did go there and then it came back the next day. He said the Emperor was very pleased to see that it was very happy in its new environment, he thought. Doug Still: [52:55] Wonderful. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [52:56] And to underscore that, his sister-in-law, who took great interest in the collection that her husband had inherited, this was Princess Chichibu, she visited the United States and came to visit the collection and to see the tree what she considered her collection because she had more interest in the bonsai than her husband did. So, that was 1978, and while she was visiting, the museum had already opened. The pavilion had opened. There's no roof on the pavilion, so the trees get a lot of sun and rain, and they thrive. While she was visiting and the State Department was with her and taking her around and they were walking out to leave, and they passed the emperor's pine, and there was a bird's nest in it. A robin had built a nest in it that spring and the babies had hatched, and they were all-- how babies are with their hungry mouths. They were all peeping and had these hungry mouths, and she just-- Oh, my God. She got so excited. Doug Still: [54:06] She was moved. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:07] She was so moved. And so, then there was oohing and ahhing. She was there with the ambassador's wife, and I believe her son was with her. And they've just had to stop and talk about this and take pictures of it. And at that point, Dr. Creech says the State Department official just threw up his hands. It's like they were totally off-schedule. [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:31] But she said this was a sign that the collection was thriving in America and had been accepted, and they were happy, and nature was happy that they were there. Doug Still: [54:42] What a relief. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:44] It was a sign. So that has been the story of the Imperial Pine in America. Doug Still: [54:51] Amazing. Have you met any dignitaries next to the pine? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:55] Oh, who is the latest? The last important trip was when Melania Trump brought the Prime Minister's wife on a visit several years ago. So, we're just pleased that were still in the hearts and minds of the people in the White House, that we're always available. Hillary Clinton asked for a tree that had been given to her husband during his presidency when she was Secretary of State. She asked if that tree could be brought to the reception she was holding for her counterpart from Japan. So, they continue to perform a very important function in the Washington DC area. We do not really let them travel much further than that because everyone comes to see them and they want to see the Imperial Pine or the pine that survived Hiroshima. So, they kind of switch positions within the pavilion. The entrance, the first thing you see when you enter the Japanese Pavilion used to be the Imperial Pine, and the Yamaki Pine was the last one that you would see. It had its own stage, as you will, nothing else was near it. So then with the prominence and the rise to fame of the Yamaki Pine, they switched positions. But I think that the Emperor's Pine is happy being in a sort of a more humble position in the back. It's a quieter place, and it seems perfectly content to be there and is thriving and really holds up. It's the curtain call. Doug Still: [56:44] Right. [laughs] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [56:46] When you visit. You have the opening act, and then you have all these other wonderful trees from Japan, and then you have the Emperor's Tree in all of its majesty. Doug Still: [56:57] Well, Ked, thanks for telling the story of the imperial pine. You've been a delight, and I really appreciate your time. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [57:04] Well, thank you. It's wonderful to be able to talk about this tree. You really feel like you are following in footsteps because taking care of bonsai is you are privileged to only be part of its life for a short time. And you think of all the people who have taken care of this tree in particular over the years, and you become part of that collective family. Doug Still: [57:34] That was so well said. And how special to have Ked and Michael on the show to welcome us into their world. Thank you both, and I hope everyone makes a point of visiting the U.S. National Arboretum the next time you're in DC. To see the Imperial Pine in all its peace-promoting symbolism, as well as the entire collection at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. And thank you, tree lovers, for listening once again, if you like the show and feel so moved, please leave a review on whatever podcast app you listen to, that would really help us out. Follow on Facebook or Instagram to see photos of the imperial pine and past featured trees. And the show website is www.thisoldtree.show. Thanks to Anne and Tony for being the very first Patreon subscribers. Your support is appreciated. See you next time. I'm Doug Still and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Tree Story Shorts II (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 13 Published March 26, 2023 [music] Doug Still: [00:05] Welcome again to This Old Tree. The show features heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm your host, Doug Still, and this time I've got another edition of Tree Story Shorts for you. This is when I take a step back and let listeners submit their own stories about trees that have special meaning to them. I love that you all keep submitting these, and I want to share them on the show. This time, I have nine fantastic and touching stories you are going to love. If I had to pick a thematic thread connecting them, I would say it is loss and memory, and each writer presents this a bit differently. However, these short stories are so rich. Let me know if you pick up on a different theme. I hope you enjoy these as much as I did. So, without further ado, here are Tree Story Shorts. [This Old Tree theme] Gil Reavill: [01:15] Hello, Doug. It's Gil Reavill. I grew up with a 40-foot apple tree in the backyard of our family home. This was in small town, Central Wisconsin. I wish I could tell you the specific species. I queried my sisters about it, but that precise fact seems lost in history. We went through all the possibilities. Was it a Blenheim Orange maybe? Duchess of Oldenburg? Maiden Blush? We don't know. I do know that the tree represented a central icon of my childhood. I sometimes dream about it to this day. My mother was a longtime kindergarten teacher and also a dedicated home cook, and every season we would gather the tree's very generous harvest. The green and reddish fruit were small and flavorful, but not particularly sweet. My mother called them cooking apples. She canned homemade applesauce, with the family enjoying the fruits of her labor for the entire year. For myself though, the tree served an entirely different purpose as a sort of convenient improvised jungle gem. The trunk probably measured 25 or 30 inches DBH. At the five-foot mark, a seam suggested evidence of an early graft, and apples from one side of the tree were subtly different from those on the other. This split in the trunk was at a perfect kid height, allowing easy access for climbing. Early on, I was able to scramble into every area of the tree, into both of the asymmetrical branch networks. At the top of one was a thick horizontal crook that served as a sort of hammock. I could lounge there, close to the sky, largely invisible from earthbound humans. As a kid, I was an inveterate reader, so there are pictures of me in my apple tree aerie engrossed in a book. I remember being called down to the dinner table but leaving books up there so I could get to them later. This spot was one of my favorite summer hangouts throughout my younger days, from grade school up until junior high. After that, seduced by the charms of the automobile, I put away childish things. Since I've now become a parent myself, I shudder retrospectively about my habitual tree climbing as a youngster. I never fell out, but I could have. I honor my brave mother and father for allowing my constant excursions. But I think this solitary backyard apple tree represented a refuge, providing vital and necessary aid to my early physical development, yeah, but also helping to foster my imagination. The view from up there provided perspective. My ground-level problems and preoccupations appeared puny. I could dream freely. Recreational climbing, not applesauce, was, for me, the tree's true harvest. [music] Doug Still: [04:25] That first story was from Gil Reavill. Gil is an author, screenwriter, and journalist who lives in the New York City area, coming to it by way of being born in Wisconsin and educated in Colorado. He is married to an arborist. You may remember Jean Zimmerman from the first Tree Story Short episode, and co-host of the Charter Oak. But Gil says he recently flunked a trivia quiz that asked whether Trees poet, Joyce Kilmer, was female or male. But anyway, I loved his story that looks back on the secret places of childhood reading and the joys of tree climbing. The next piece is by Jim Voorhies, a retired grounds manager and entomologist from upstate New York. No doubt about this one. It's about the loss of a tree, specifically a leaning pine on a college campus. It's also about the power of trees as symbols and how that sometimes manifested in unexpected ways. Jim Voorhies: [05:24] Greetings, fellow tree lovers. My story is from the Adirondack Mountains in the very northern part of New York State on the campus of Paul Smith's College. I am an alum of the college class of 1972. The story begins in the late 1850s when Paul Smith purchased approximately 50 acres along the shore of Lower St. Regis Lake. Paul was to build a hotel for hunters and fishermen, which he guided for, and their families. Eventually, it was known as a resort for the rich and famous. More and more lands were cleared and structures built. But at some point, the land surrounding a very majestic, very leaning white pine, Pinus strobus. Either it had to be spared or removed. Paul Smith decided to keep the tree and several other very mature white pines near his hotel ground. Moving along, in 1930, the hotel suffered a devastating fire that, along with the depression, the hotel was never built to its original glory. Paul and Lydia's son, Phelps Smith, inherited everything. Upon his death, his will dictated that all his wealth, including property, shall be used to start a college of arts and science, and would forever be called Paul Smith's College. The college opened in 1946. In 1947, the student council sponsored a contest for a college logo, a college symbol. A sketch of the Leaning Pine was submitted, and it won. It kind of stuck as the logo of the college. Soon the leaning pine image was copied on everything. College stationery in the yearbook, on hats, shirts, coats everywhere. You could not possibly come on campus without seeing it immediately. It was very close to the entrance of the college. As you entered the college, the tree leaned to the left. It was absolutely an icon, right from the beginning when the school opened. On November 12, 1971, a couple of disgruntled students chopped down the Leaning Pine very early in the morning. Several hours later, I was standing right next to that college symbol while it was laying on the ground, in disbelief. It was like, "Why would you do this?" At first, the culprits were a mystery, but a few months later, a student confessed. The whole story is every forestry student had to take this Introduction to Forestry course, and part of it was learning how to take care of your axe, how to sharpen it properly, some things on the handle of the axe and you were graded on it. Historically, the grades were not very high. So, some folks got their axes graded. They didn't like the grades, and they showed the school that their axe [laughs] was adequate and could chop down a tree. Today, the Leaning Pine, the original symbol of the college, is still the college symbol. A disc cut from the trunk before the log was sent to a sawmill was saved by the college. The disc has recently been refurbished and is displayed in the college library with wall plaques adjacent to it identifying a timeline of historic events, utilizing the growth rings to mark those years. It's referred to as dendrochronology. The disc from the Leaning Pine tells the story of its birth in 1690, and we know its last growth ring was 1971. So, this famous and historic leaning white pine was 281 years old. I do feel fortunate that I've seen it alive, if even for just over a year while I was a student at the college. And that concludes my tree story. [music] Doug Still: [09:49] Thanks to Jim for that bit of lore from Paul Smith's College at the time. That must have been shocking to all Smittys everywhere. But I love that the symbolism of the Leaning Pine lives on. Jim was inducted into the Paul Smith's Hall of Fame in 2022 for his support and commitment to the school, and he did extensive research about the Leaning Pine incident, featured in a video called “Smitty Story Hour, The Leaning Pine.” Go ahead and YouTube it if you're interested in hearing more. Next up is Georgia Silvera Seamans, an urban ecologist and founder of Local Nature Lab whose home base is in Washington Square Park in New York City. Local Nature Lab has a mission to monitor, educate, support, and advocate for biodiversity and local nature in urban areas. When she's not spending time in the park noticing nature, she's hosting the podcast, Your Bird Story, which centers the voices of everyday people's encounters and relationships with wild birds in cities. It's great. Please check out Your Bird Story. But this story is about some Kwanzan cherry trees near Washington Square that everyone loved. Georgia Silvera Seamans: [11:04] Hi, my name is Georgia, and this is my Tree Short, which is about a row of cherry trees in Greenwich Village, New York City. If you're not familiar with this species, Prunus serrulata, cultivar ‘Kwanzan.’ The flowers are cotton candy pink, and big - I'm talking like "Almost palm of your hand big,” - and many petals. You might see this cultivar listed as Kanzan, K-A-N-Z-A-N. But when I learned this species, the cultivar was Kwanzan. New Yorkers don't stroll. We definitely hurry along sidewalks and pretty much any other place that you see us. But the spring flowers and equally stunning fall color of Kwanzan cherries at this location caused people to slow down, to stop, to notice, to take photos. The trees were an unlisted landmark in the neighborhood. Everyone in the neighborhood knew about them, and visitors and tourists were wowed, just like we were. In 2016, the seven Kwanzans were removed as part of a mega construction project. The community loudly pushed for these trees to be transplanted. At the time, an arborist hired by the institution whose project called for the removal of these trees assessed that only three of the trees would survive or actually said "might" survive transplantation. The institution in charge of the building project said they couldn't find suitable locations, and so, with a permit from the city, removed all seven trees. Now reportedly, the trees were donated to a nonprofit that recycles and repurposes wood. It was only after hearing that the institution needed a city permit for removal that I realized that the trees had been growing on public property. I wish I had measured them so I could tell you about their ecosystem services, their regulating benefits. But to be honest, the significance of these cherries, which are sterile and didn't attract or don't attract insects, was cultural. People took joy in their seasonal changes. I can't believe I just said that, because my gripe with tulips from tulip bulbs is that they are poor in environmental benefits. But I guess you can now see my tree bias. Thanks so much for listening to this Tree Short. [music] Doug Still: [14:17] Georgia, it's always tough to see a tree removed that you have affection for, never mind a whole row of them in densely populated New York City, where they are so needed. Environmental benefits or no, these trees clearly lifted people's spirits with their beauty. Thanks for sharing your story and for everything you do to raise appreciation for nature in the Big Apple. Speaking of urban landscapes, our attention now shifts to the islands of Macau, a city and special administrative region of China in the Pearl River Delta by the South China Sea. It is the most densely populated region in the world and a gambling mecca. Our storyteller is Chi Ngai Chan, a staff scientist at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center of Harvard Medical School in Boston. Chi grew up in Macau and remembers that it wasn't all built up. Chi Ngai Chan: [15:11] My name is Chi, and I was born in the city of Macau in the 1980s. Back then, it was a Portuguese colony which would be returned to China in 1999. Like Hong Kong next door, it was a western foothold in Communist China and is heavily urbanized. Unlike Hong Kong, its main industry was, and still is, the gambling industry. Trees are few and far between amongst the concrete jungle, no matter how much the local primary school textbooks praise the virtues of trees and greenery. But in the two outer islands away from Macau City, you can still find forests and nature. My favorite spot was a mangrove forest in a sheltered bay between the two islands. Slow ocean currents and tides kept the forest fed and brought in all kinds of strange aquatic life and elegant shorebirds. During lunch breaks in my primary school, my dad will pick me and my sister up to have lunch next to this alien yet beautiful landscape. I spent many happy afternoons counting crabs, muscicapas, and herons while eating noodles with my family. Alas, the forest was living on borrowed time. The tides that fed the forest were slowly cut off by land reclamation nearby, and one day, the whole forest turned black. Overnight, people suspected that the forest was poisoned to hasten its demise so that a new casino could be built on top of it, but no one was held responsible. Staring at this black mass of death, I was both livid and hopeless since I could not change the situation. Ironically, when the casino was built, they turned the swarm where the mangrove forest used to be into an artificial lake and added nonnative water lilies to beautify it. The tourists would never know what was lost in the name of progress. [music] Doug Still: [17:32] Chi, when you first told me about the mangroves at Macau, you asked if it was appropriate for this show. I answered “It absolutely is.” Some stories are hard to hear and make us angry, but we need to hear it, because we need those vital mangrove communities to stem the effects of climate change and to protect wildlife and our oceans. Maybe by telling what can happen and how easily they might disappear, we can add to the growing alarm over the disappearance of mangrove forests worldwide. It's about time to hear about some living trees, and contributor, Fran Hutton, takes us there, to Western Pennsylvania specifically. Fran is a mostly retired GIS consultant and cartographer. She loves to sing and travel, especially to places where she can see the forests and wildlife. For fun, she maps her journeys as a cartographer would. And she's known to practice her music in the woods too. I know her as a singer in a group my husband belongs to, the award-winning mixed a capella chorus, Voices United. Fran Hutton: Hi, my name is Fran and I want to tell you about the largest white oak tree I have ever seen. In 1969, when I was 12, my parents moved us to Indiana County, Pennsylvania, 2 miles up a long hill from the village of Rochester Mills in Grant Township. The 40 acres we eventually purchased was a mix of old farm fields, wild woods, and tree plantations. Our driveway was a long lane off Nashville Road that went past the house, past a large barn, and then turned uphill at the barn and curved into the woods. The first time we walked up that path to its end, we saw the oak. In 1969, it was over 13ft in circumference. It had huge branches that spread out wide enough to lie down on. This magnificent white oak dwarfed all the other large old trees around. It was also widely known in the area. True or not, we were told by some of the locals that we had really good water since that oak grew where it needed a lot of water, and our springhouse was directly downhill from the oak and our water was pure and abundant. My brothers used the tree as a readymade deer stand during hunting season. But I would bring my books or writing into the woods and lean against the tree and ponder its long history. The local people, some farmers, some descendants of the Indian tribes who had lived there, and old loggers who had worked at the logging camp on the property, said that the tree was well over 300 years old. I wondered how this tree had survived not being nibbled away by the deer, not being cleared for farmland in the 1700s, or for lumbering in the 1800s. I wondered if the oak's roots had been shaken by the Conestoga wagons that passed by on a nearby trail that went west. I wished I could have seen all the history the oak had seen. Whenever I visited my parents in later years, I always hiked up to see that dear old tree. The last time, I hiked up the trail, past the barn, up the hill in the woods to pay homage to the old tree was in 2019. This tree helped grow my love of history, geography, and cartography, which had become my profession. The property was sold in 2019 and I hope that the oak still stands and brings joy and inspiration to more generations. [music] Doug Still: [21:23] I'm sure the old oak is still there, Fran. Sounds like it could have been a boundary tree, marking the edge of a property or a field. I understand Pennsylvania has a lot of boundary trees that were kept for this reason. If you ever make a visit back, please let us know. The next story is from Brandon Namm, a tree inspector for the city of Portland, Oregon, and a private consulting arborist with Laurelin Tree Consulting. Sit back and listen to him tell us about a wonderful redwood tree. Brandon Namm: [21:55] My name is Brandon Namm, and I am an arborist living in Portland, Oregon. My favorite tree is a coast redwood that grows along the Avenue of the Giants in Humboldt Redwoods State Park, California. Growing up, my parents, sisters, and I would camp at the state park every year. It was a long trip up from Southern California and our favorite secret swimming spot on the Eel River was always our first place to stop to wash up. To find the spot, we looked for a very large redwood tree growing immediately next to the avenue. Its heartwood is burnt out, leaving a large entrance and cavity called the Goose Pen. You can see the Goose Pen only when approaching the tree from one side, making it an even more secret spot. It is truly a giant pillar of a tree and is large enough for us to have privacy to change and get ready to go down to the river. A short walk through the woods leads down to the Eel River where we spent many afternoons swimming and playing. We even actually left the dog there a couple of times. It is such a special place that bringing new people to the spot was a very big deal. I can remember the first time showing my wife which tree marks our family's secret place and leading her to the river. I didn't ask my younger sister's permission, and I think I'm still in trouble. In 2021, my father died of Parkinson's disease. We were always very close. Growing up, people commented on how much we looked alike and I think we both took it as a compliment. He was a compassionate and caring father who always had time to listen to me. Our time spent together hiking, playing baseball, reading, and just sitting quietly in the car during road trips are small moments I will never forget. When my father died, it was the heart of COVID, and we never ended up having a big memorial service. But in October of that year, our family met at Humboldt Redwoods State Park and spread my dad's ashes in the Eel River. Afterward, I kept a bit of them to spread inside the big redwood and to have my own moment with him. My wife is now pregnant with our first child. And I can't wait to point out the big redwood with the Goose Pen that leads to the swimming spot. I'm terribly sad to know my dad will never meet them, but it is a comfort to know we can always visit the tree growing along the Avenue of the Giants and know he will be there to guide the way. [music] Doug Still: [24:40] Wow. Thank you, Brandon, for being willing to share that emotional story about you and your dad. That coastal redwood clearly means a lot to you and your family. The love comes through, so thank you, and good luck to you and your wife with a new baby. Eva Monheim is a speaker, consultant, garden coach, designer, writer, photographer, and co-host of The Plant a Trillion Trees Podcast with Hal Rosner. I'm a regular listener to their podcast, the purpose of which is to encourage tree planting and proper tree care for our urban forests, as well as to promote the importance of established trees and their benefits. Do check it out. She is also the author of Shrubs and Hedges: Discover, Grow, and Care for the World's Most Popular Plants, a book that was inspired by her years of teaching woody plants as an assistant professor at Temple University in the department of landscape architecture and horticulture, Eva took time from her packed schedule to record this story about a European beech tree that she saw a change over time. Eva Monheim: [25:48] Hello, my name is Eva Monheim, and I'm going to tell you a little bit about a European beech or Fagus sylvatica. When I was working at the Ambler campus of Temple University, I was a professor of landscape architecture and horticulture, and I taught woody plants. The one plant that I taught was European beech. This tree that we had was quite old, about 150 years old, and it was beautiful. It looked like it had elephant skin. That's classic for the tree. One of the primary ways it reproduces is to lay its branches down to the ground if you let it. In this case, there was one branch that was allowed to touch the ground and root. Over time, this branch eventually rooted, and it stood up. That's classic when once the new progeny is independent, it will actually be vertical rather than horizontal. At that same time, there was construction of a new building and a garden, and they brought in a big truck, and it had stone, and they parked it right on the old parent's root. If you know anything about Fagus sylvatica, they do not like compressed roots. They like to be undisturbed. So, after the truck had left, the tree started to decline, and it declined over a period of about five years. During that time, I would have meditation classes that I would teach, and students would come to this tree and touch it and do meditations on it. Over time, this tree declined and started to rot, and then there was an animal living in it. To watch the process of this old tree giving its energy to this young progeny was fascinating because you could actually see how the energy was leaving the parent tree and going into the young tree and providing for it. I never could figure out when I was going to England, I've lived in England and saw these tree rings in England, and I realized that those tree rings were created by a solitary European beech that had laid its branches all the way around itself to create a ring. From that parent, the parent provides the food for the young ones. In this case when the parent died, the limb was severed from the parent and the young tree continued to grow. More recently, there was a tornado that went through the campus and I'm not sure if the tree is still standing, but just to know that the parent was unselfish in giving its energy to the young tree really amazed me. When you see a tree ring, trees where you think that they're purposely planted may not be purposely planted, depending on what type of tree is creating the tree ring. In the case of Fagus sylvatica, they create their own tree rings. So, when you see something like that in Europe and you think about it, or you look at the structures of the trees, you can pretty much tell whether they are the offspring of the parent and they're not purposely planted. So, consider that when you're looking at and observing nature in its best. Of course, I think this is one of the best stories of an unselfish parent giving to its child. [music] Doug Still: [29:50] I'm starting to sense another theme today having to do with parents and children, both human and tree, and passing on to the next generation. Thank you, Eva, for your observations of the beach tree over time and finding the poetry in it. Along these same lines, I'd like to introduce Leena Chapagain. Leena is a botanist and currently a gardener in the historic garden at Dumbarton Oaks in Washington DC. I had the pleasure of meeting Leena on a recent trip to Washington and learned that she is originally from Nepal, where her father was a forest officer and also owned a private tree nursery. She has a story about the Indian rosewood tree - the Latin name is Dalbergia sissoo - and the importance of ecological restoration, with a surprise family twist. Leena Chapagain: [30:41] Hello, my name is Leena Chapagain. I'm a botanist. I did a master's degree in botany. I have my qualification done and education done in Nepal from [unintelligible 00:30:56] University. And then I did. My master's from Bangkok. Asian Institute of Technology Thailand. Nowadays I'm working as a gardener at Dumbarton Oaks, DC. Today, I'm going to talk briefly about my favorite tree specimen. Actually, there are so many trees which are favorite to me, but my favorite tree is Dalbergia sissoo. Its common English name is Indian rosewood tree. It's a hardwood, and it's native to South Asia. Commonly found in Nepal, India, Afghanistan. This plant-- this species is hardwood, and not very moderately-- but the fast-growing tree. Especially, it is used for timber, used for making furniture, windows, doors, house. Compared to other hardwood trees, it is very fast growing. People love to use it and then people love to plant these spaces in their property. For ecological purposes, we use it for erosion control. It has a drought tolerance, drought resistance, and it can grow very nicely in the riverine area, in the weather log area. Also, it can tolerate, it can thrive. So, it is a great tree. It grows up to 40 to 60 ft height and forms a very nice canopy. This is my favorite plant because I am somewhat emotionally attached to these species because my first job is start long back, I will take you. But when my first job started, it was U.N.-funded, U.N.-supported project. We had massive deforestation because of different regions in the eastern part of Nepal and there was a lot of flood and then the people settlements problems and then natural forest was declining. I luckily got a chance to work in that project. Our role was to cover the area eroded area that deforested area, make it naturally, and then let it to grow, let it to make that ecosystem balance as soon as possible. So, what we have to do? We have to choose the past growing spaces as well as, then there was a lot of erosion going on, gully erosion, that also we needed to control. So, Dalbergia sissoo, we picked. So, we picked this one. About 25,000 plants we planted within a two months, about 10km of periphery, the water bank, the river bank area, and the roadside. And why I was emotionally attached with this plant, I will just briefly tell you. When I was 10, 11 years old we had a forest nursery back home. I used to work with my dad. Up to midnight were working, putting the polybag, the plant in the polybag, and the stump cutting and were preparing it and the plant got ready within four to five years by the time I was 11, 12 years old, when I was in college and start my job, almost 20 years old. And I got that project and we got the demand from the project, from the office like, "We need 25,000 plants. Can you deliver? This much height." We got that plant from my dad's nursery! And I was working there and my dad started to cry when he got the bid for the project and he started to cry. Same time, I was crying too. That is the very emotional attachment with that plant. And then in the same time, it became my favorite plant too. Doug Still: [35:40] Honestly, I can't stop smiling every time I play back Leena's moving story from Nepal. I feel transported there. She became a US citizen in 2013, but I can see her love of plants and ecology came from her dad back home. Keep up the good work Leena and I encourage everyone to visit Dumbarton Oaks if you ever get the chance. Lastly, we have the honor and privilege to hear from one of our country's long time leaders in forestry, Steven Koehn. Steve is the director of Cooperative Forestry with the US Forest Service in Washington DC. And provides expert advice and counsel to the Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry, where he's responsible for plans, programs, and policies that promote forestry on state and private lands, including rural forestry, urban forestry, open space conservation, woody biomass, ecosystem services, forest taxation, reforestation, nurseries, and gene conservation, and climate change adaptation. Previously, Steve was director and state forester for the Maryland Forest Service, and he's held many leadership positions. He's coordinated input on national forest policy issues such as the 2008 Farm Bill, national forest sustainability policy, and US Forest Service, State and Private Forestry Redesign. He serves on numerous boards and committees and is a fellow with the Society of American Foresters. I think you get the picture. Like me, he got a forester degree from Penn State. So, go Nittany Lions. Here's Steve's story. Steve Koehn: [37:21] Hello. My name is Steve Koehn. I'm the Director of Cooperative Forestry with the US Forest Service here in the Washington office. Prior to that, I was also the state forester for the State of Maryland, working 31 years with the Maryland Forest Service. And I'd like to tell you a story about my fond memories of the largest white oak tree in the nation, which used to grow in the state of Maryland in the small village of Wye Mills on Maryland's Eastern Shore. It was a white oak, but it was known as the Wye Oak, spelled W-Y-E. And one tree was the subject of the Wye Oak State Park. So, there was a state park that was only the size, basically, of the footprint of the tree. It was the nation's largest white oak. It was approximately 460 years old. It was a gigantic, majestic, spreading crown. By the time I got to know her, she was showing her age a little bit. There were a lot of cavities that had been filled by concrete that arborists had tried to shore up the structural integrity of the tree. And much of the tree had cabling and bracing to make sure that we weren't losing any major portions of the tree trunk or major limbs. We had lost a major limb several years before I became state forester. The one limb that fell off the tree in a storm at that time was 33 tons. That limb was 33 tons and when it was salvaged, that limb was used by an artist to create a sculpture, a wooden sculpture of two children planting an oak tree that sits in the lobby of the Tawes State Office Building, which is the office of the Department of Natural Resources in Maryland. This tree, forgive the expression, but it had a storied past. In June of 2002, as the Maryland State Forester, I got a call late one evening that a line of thunderstorms had come through and the Wye Oak had collapsed in one of the thunderstorms. I made my way down to the Eastern Shore from my house to take over the recovery aspects of trying to secure the site and make sure that there was no further damage or harm came from the tree, which had taken down power lines and caused a blockage of a major road through the village. All through the night, people were coming to express their deepest sympathies and condolences for the loss of the tree. Many people were trying to gather leaves that had fallen off the tree or asked to have a leaf from the tree. We had a Native American come and represent his Indian tribe and sat and kneeled with the tree for about 15 minutes to pay homage to the spirit of the tree and what it meant to their particular tribe. So, it was quite a loss for the State of Maryland but we were able to salvage every bit of the wood and anything that was structurally solid got either cut up into boards or made into other objects. We provided wood products to all the local counties on the eastern shore, and they had their county seal for the county courthouse redone in white oak wood. There was a lot of timber that was made available to local artisans that made all kinds of artifacts and all kinds of artwork, picture frames, and things that were utilitarian, as well as sculptures and other kinds of carvings. Lots of pens were made from white oak wood. A lot of ladies' pins for their blouses were made out of leaves. A good chunk of the wood that we had recovered from the tree was built into the current Governor of the State of Maryland's desk. So, the Governor of the State of Maryland has a Wye Oak wooden desk that he or she signs all the legislation on to become law in Maryland. The first person who was able to authorize the use of wood for that at the time was Governor Ehrlich. The most recent governor who just came out of office, Governor Hogan, also signed most, if not all of the bills that went into become law. All that legislation was signed on the Wye Oak desk. We, as the State of Maryland, decided that we took some of the wood from the collapsed tree and we took cuttings from that and were able to graft those cuttings onto generic white oak rootstock, basically creating clones of the traditional and original Wye Oak tree. And we have been growing those seedlings. An original Wye Oak clone has gone back onto the original site and is growing the next generation of Wye Oak at the old site. Some of the other seedlings that were cloned have been allowed to get big enough to produce acorns and now we are making available acorns from the clones of the original tree so people can get a grandson or a granddaughter, depending on how you want to look at it, seeds of the Wye Oak to be able to take home and plant in their people's own backyards or made use for other reasons like that. So, the Wye Oak, in a sense, lives on. I always thought that this was a tremendous experience in that the outpouring of love and concern and caring about what the tree represented to many, many families that stopped in there on their way to Ocean City or picnicked under the shade or urban wildlife that made their homes in the branches and the cavities of that tree. It was 460 years old, and it certainly served the community and all that cared about it very, very well. Some of my remembrances of the Wye Oak, I hope people understand that this is an important aspect of every Marylander's heritage, and I appreciate people wanting to know about the Wye Oak. You could check it out online if you ever had interest about what the wood was used for and how the wood was distributed and the history of the Wye Oak State Park. With that, I'll turn it back to our host. Thank you so much. Doug Still: [44:02] I had a chance to chat with Steve Koehn on the phone about the Wye Oak when he told another part of his tale that resonated with me as an arborist and urban forester. When he first stepped into the position of State Forester of Maryland, his predecessor left a letter in the desk for him to find, just like outgoing presidents do within the desk in the Oval Office. One message Steve received in the letter was something to the effect of, "Never let anything happen to the Wye Oak." Myself, as someone responsible for the care of a historic 240-year-old icon of a tree (episode 1, The Betsey Williams Sycamore), I could relate to the mix of honor and consternation Steve must have felt upon reading that. What a body blow it must have been for the storm to destroy the tree so soon afterward. We should have nothing but respect for Steve and his team for managing the loss, properly mourning the tree, and turning its pieces into artifacts that have become part of Maryland's history and lore. What an honor to have all of these wonderful stories told by our contributors. Thanks again to Gil Reavill, Jim Voorhies, Georgia Silvera Seamans, Chi Chan, Fran Hutton, Brandon Namm, Eva Monheim, Leena Chapagain, and Steven Koehn. You help make this episode special. And thank you, tree lovers, for listening. As many as I can, I plan to post photos of the trees and people featured today on Facebook and Instagram, so keep an eye out. Also, check out the website at thisoldtree.show. I've got a T-shirt for you if you're interested. Most of all, if you've enjoyed this show, please find the Share Episode button on your podcast app and send it along to someone you think might enjoy it too. I will see you next time. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme playing] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Major Oak of Sherwood Forest (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 12 Published March 13, 2023 [music] The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [00:09] In Merry England, long ago, when good King Henry II ruled, a famous outlaw lived in Sherwood Forest, near the town of Nottingham. His name was Robin Hood, and no archer was his equal, nor was there ever such a band as his hundred and forty merry men. They lived carefree lives in the forest; they passed the time competing at archery or battling with the quarterstaff; they lived on the King's deer and washed it down with strong October ale. They were outlaws, of course, but the common people loved them - for no one who came to Robin in need went away empty-handed. Doug Still: [00:57] Welcome, listeners, Doug here. Flash forward to today and Sherwood Forest still exists in the County of Nottinghamshire. Within it, there is the most charming old oak tree you've ever laid your eyes on. It may well have harbored Robin Hood and his merry men, or perhaps people like them. It's called The Major Oak, and honestly, it ranks as one of the most famous trees in the world. In 2014, The Woodland Trust held its first Tree of the Year contest in England by public vote, and The Major Oak won, beating out tough competitions such as Old Knobbley, the Ickwell Oak, the Ankerwycke Yew near where the Magna Carta was signed, and Newton's apple tree. People from all over the world visit The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest, drawn by the legend. I have two guests from Sherwood Forest National Nature Reserve to help describe why the tree is so special. One is Paul Cook, the warden tasked with maintaining the woodland and the landscape. The other is the Sheriff of Nottingham, or that is Richard Townsley, a tour guide and local authority on Robin Hood. There's an aura around this tree, thanks to the legend. But what I found out is that the tree's allure and lasting popularity has really become about so much more. I can barely contain my excitement. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:42] I follow a number of tree-related forums online, on Facebook and Instagram, and other places. And there are certain trees that people post about over and over again. The Major Oak is one of them because it oozes character. Paul Cook: [02:57] It's an amazing tree. The Major Oak is a famous oak tree. Doug Still: [03:04] That's Paul Cook, who for 20 years has been the warden at Sherwood Forest, caring for the reserves, woodland, wood pasture, and lowland heath. He manages a small team of two assistant wardens, a state worker, contractors, and dozens of volunteers who they couldn't do without. He also has the enviable, if not pressure-filled responsibility of caring for The Major Oak, England's millennium-old icon. Paul Cook: [03:31] So, it's a Quercus robur, which is a pedunculate oak, which is also known as the English oak. The tree itself, we estimate, weighs about 23 tons. It's got a trunk circumference of about 33ft. So, that's quite a broad tree. But it is for the UK, anyway. I know you've got quite big trees in the States. Doug Still: [03:56] That's pretty broad. Paul Cook: [03:58] It's certainly not the biggest tree or the oldest tree here in the UK, but it's certainly one of the most famous trees. And basically because of the link to Robin Hood. Doug Still: [04:09] The tree has a commanding presence with wide-spreading branches. There is a series of support poles beneath them, creating the appearance of an elderly grandparent leaning on multiple canes, but head held high. Its main branches, some as big as old trees themselves, form a U shape, as they lift upward. Upper branches form twisting, turning, silhouettes against the sky. The gnarly, weathered trunk undulates with bulges and hollows that vibrate with life. But what I quickly learned from Paul is that The Major Oak is viewed as the most well-known member of a larger, vital ecosystem, defined by hundreds of veteran trees, as they are known in the UK. Paul Cook: [04:51] As you walk towards The Major Oak from the visitor center, it's about 20 minutes' walk from the visitor center, in the center of the forest. It really hits you, because it's a big tree. It used to be in the middle of nowhere, so we think it was like a parkland tree. It was in the middle of a big expansive grassland or woodland pasture. Doug Still: [05:16] I love that it's not just next to the visitor center or something. You have to take a little walk to get to it. Paul Cook: [05:22] Yeah, exactly. We are a triple site, so we are a site for special scientific interests. We're also a SAC, a special area of conservation, which is a European designation. And we are a nature reserve. We are a national nature reserve, and we're one of a handful of ancient woodlands. But when we became a SAC in 2002, one of the requirements for that was that there should be no visitor's facility within the SAC. So, we had to remove all the buildings, the cafe, the shops, the toilets, the education center, all that had to be moved outside of the SAC. Doug Still: [06:08] That's great. Paul Cook: [06:11] Because of these ancient oaks, you would never put a house or a building so close to a tree like that. Doug Still: [06:18] No. Sherwood Forest Reserve is part of the larger RSPB or the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. It is the largest nature conservation charity in the country, dating back to 1889, and it manages over 200 nature reserves across the UK. So, this tree has a massive trunk, and is there a hollow? Paul Cook: [06:40] Yeah, the ancient oak trees are classed as anything that's over 300 years old. So, when it becomes about 300 years old, there is a saying that it spends its first 100 years growing. So, literally from an acorn, a tiny acorn. These trees just shoot straight up into the sky and get as high as they can get. And then, the second 100 years, they start to grow outwards, they start to lose the tops of the trees and they start to put on girth and really grow outwards. Any competition, any weaker trees will then die back because we always like to be very British, very English. We don't like being touched, we don't like being too close to people. We like our space. Doug Still: [07:29] And it's the English oak. Paul Cook: [07:31] Yeah. That's the same with the English oak. It doesn't like being too close to other trees. It certainly doesn't like being touched by other trees. We tend to get a lot of die back away from each other or they grow away from each other. So, the trees are over 300 years old. They start to retrench, and they start to put on girth. The third 100 years is they kind of live their life and they put out maximum girth. They start to hollow out inside. So, the trees become-- they lose the heartwood and put all the energy into growing outwards. They lose the tops. In fact, we call them stag-headed oaks as well, because the top starts to retrench, it starts to die back, and they look like stag antlers. Doug Still: [08:23] So, retrenchment means the ends of the branches die, and its resources are put more towards the trunk and the roots and a different sort of survival mode. Paul Cook: [08:36] Yeah, exactly. It starts to come back in towards the trunk. We've got some big wide trees that are short in height and that's our veteran trees. They've got loads of different characters as well. It's not just about the age. They've got obviously the hollowing of the tree, they've got deadwood inside the canopy of the tree as well, which we encourage. Doug Still: [09:02] I was going to ask if you're okay with the deadwood. Paul Cook: [09:05] Yes, definitely. We've got over a thousand of these veteran oak trees in the area that we manage. Out of those, about 650 are alive, living. The minimum is 300 years old, and they are still growing, still alive, but they're producing signs of decay. So, with the heartwood hollowing out, with the branches starting to hollowing, and decay coming out. There's a lot of loose bark, you get flaky bark on there, so you can get bats that love to burrow just underneath the bark. We've got a lot of rare beetles and invertebrates that live within the dead, decaying wood. Doug Still: [10:01] There's quite an ecosystem within a single tree, isn't there? Paul Cook: [10:05] Absolutely. We've got one of the largest cohorts of ancient oaks in the world and some are like-- I say some are living and some are dead. Each one can have over 600 different species of invertebrates. We call them saproxylic invertebrates because these are invertebrates that are dependent on dead or decaying wood. And we've got a spider called the-- it's a small, a tiny, tiny spider that's called Midia midas. And it's one of Britain's rarest spiders. That is associated just with ancient oak trees. You won't find it in any other habitat, but just ancient oak trees. Doug Still: [10:47] Really interesting. Paul Cook: [10:48] Yeah. So, it is nationally endangered. Doug Still: [10:51] What's the ecosystem like in the forest as a whole? Paul Cook: [10:54] Ecosystem is fantastic. Like I said, we've got over a thousand veteran trees. We've also tagged 600, what we call the next generations. These are the trees that are going to replace the veterans once they've gone and fallen over. 600 of the veterans are alive. We've got about 400 of the veterans that are completely dead. So, the dead-standing oaks. Doug Still: [11:20] Does it feel like you're in a deep forest or is it open? Paul Cook: [11:24] It is quite an open forest. In between the ancient oaks, we've got smaller oaks, so less of an age. We've also got things like silver birch trees, willow, hazel, hawthorne, sycamore, rowan, so we've got a mixture of trees. One thing about Sherwood Forest is we don't have any water features. So, we've got no rivers or lakes within the forest itself. The soil is very dry, sandy soil as well, so it's very free draining. Doug Still: [11:58] That's good for oaks. Paul Cook: [12:00] Yes, perfect for the oaks. Doug Still: [12:02] How old is The Major Oak? Paul Cook: [12:04] For years, we've been talking about there's always a figure banded around, about 800 years old. But actually, we had some work done with the Woodland Trust. The Woodland Trust is a UK-wide organization that specifically looks at woodlands. They have been doing some work with Windsor Great Park, down by London, Windsor Castle. The good thing about Windsor is that every time a royal person was born, they planted a tree. So, when a king or queen was born, they planted a tree. When a king or queen died, they planted a tree. At certain events, they planted a tree. So, they've got records of when these trees were planted. So, they can go back and look at this tree and they could do a methodology, they can measure it DBH, they could do diameter at breast height. Measure the tree, take some characteristics from that and they can work out how old these trees are. Doug Still: [13:03] And that's a perfect reference. Paul Cook: [13:06] They've applied the same principles, the same methodology to Sherwood here. We reckon that The Major Oak is about 1200 years old. Obviously, that's a guesstimate. Doug Still: [13:18] That is older than I thought. Paul Cook: [13:19] Yeah. Doug Still: [13:20] I had seen 800 plus, which I guess it fits into that category. Paul Cook: [13:26] Yeah. I always go on the theory that I'm working with 1200 years old. Doug Still: [13:32] Wow. Paul Cook: [13:34] The Major Oak is also mentioned in quite a few textbooks as well. So, we do have a lot of records for The Major Oak. Doug Still: [13:41] So, pre-Norman invasion? Paul Cook: [13:44] Yes. Doug Still: [13:45] It was standing at the time of the Robin Hood legend, which was about 12th century. What did Sherwood Forest look like at that time, during Medieval England? Paul Cook: [13:58] Sherwood Forest used to cover over 100,000 acres. It was quite a big forest in the UK, and it would cover about one-fifth of the county of Nottinghamshire. It went from the city of Nottingham in the south of the county, right up the full length-- our county, the county of Nottinghamshire is quite long and thin. So, it covered the full length of Nottinghamshire, and it went up into the neighboring counties of South Yorkshire as well. It was a mixture of dense oak trees and birch, open woodland birch trees. In fact, one of the other names for this area is the Birklands. A Birkland is a Viking word that meaning 'birch land'. Doug Still: [14:52] What type of birch? Could you give the Latin name? Paul Cook: [14:56] It's silver birch. Betula pendula. Doug Still: [15:00] Pendula? Paul Cook: [15:01] Pendula. Yeah. In fact, Sherwood itself means "The wood of the shire." Doug Still: [15:06] So, it's quite an impressive forest. If you could get lost in it? Paul Cook: [15:11] Certainly, yeah. I mean, if you look at a lot of the tales of Robin Hood, it was full of people that didn't want to be found by the establishment, so they would go into the forest and hide. [music] Doug Still: [15:25] After a short break, the Sheriff of Nottingham tells us his version of the Robin Hood tales. You're listening to This Old Tree. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [15:42] Old Nottinghamshire was in a great stir, for King Richard the Lionhearted was to visit Nottingham Town in the course of a royal journey through Merry England. People were at work everywhere, preparing a grand banquet at the Guildhall. His Majesty was to sit side by side with the Sheriff at a feast. Evening had come, the great feast at the Guildhall was done. The lords, nobles, knights, and squires all sat enjoying wine. The King said to the Sheriff, "I have heard much about the deeds of certain outlaws around here. Their leader is called Robin Hood and they are said to live in Sherwood Forest. Can you tell me more about them, Sir Sheriff?" The Sheriff looked down gloomily. "I can tell your Majesty little about the deeds of these naughty fellows, but they are surely the boldest lawbreakers in all England." Then, young Sir Henry of the Lee spoke, "May it please your Majesty, when I was away in the Holy Land, I often heard from my father. He told me many stories of this Robin Hood. If Your Majesty wishes, I will share one with you." The young knight told how Robin Hood had helped Sir Richard of the Lee with money borrowed from the Bishop of Hereford. Again and again, the King and others roared with laughter. When Sir Henry was done. Others present followed his lead by telling other tales concerning Robin and his Merry Men. "This is as bold a rascal as I have ever heard of," King Richard said. "I must do what you cannot, Sheriff. Clear the forest of him and his band." That night, the King was relaxing in the finest lodgings in Nottingham. His Majesty was still thinking about Robin Hood. "I would freely give a hundred pounds to meet this Robin Hood and to see how he lives in Sherwood Forest." Sir Hubert of Gingham spoke up with a laugh. "If Your Majesty were willing to lose £100, I could arrange for you not only to meet this fellow but to feast with him in Sherwood tomorrow." "I would be willing, Sir Hubert," the King replied. "But how will you do this?" "Very simply," Sir Hubert said." "Your Majesty and six of us here will dress in black friar's robes, and your Majesties shall conceal a purse of £100 beneath your gown. We will then attempt to ride from here to Mansfield Town tomorrow, unless I am mistaken, we will meet and dine with Robin Hood before the day is out." "I like your plan, Sir Hubert," the King said merrily. "Tomorrow, we will try it." Doug Still: [18:20] To get the best take on the history of Robin Hood, I was directed to Richard Townsley. Most visitors to Sherwood Forest would see the Sheriff of Nottingham standing before them. So, welcome to the show. Richard Townsley: [18:33] Welcome. Thank you. Doug Still: [18:34] How should I refer to you? Richard Townsley: [18:36] Well, I am the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire. So, my Lord Sheriff or simply the Sheriff is fine. Doug Still: [18:43] The Sheriff? Can I call you, my lord? Richard Townsley: [18:45] My Lord or just Lord. Yes. Doug Still: [18:47] My Lord? Okay. [laughs] That's good to know. The Lord Sheriff is one of a cast of characters you can meet if you visit the forest. But regarding the legend and its evolution over time, he is the chief authoritarian, I mean, authority. Since the dramatic events 800 years ago with Robin Hood and you, you've had to endure a lot of versions of the tale of the Robin Hood legend. Depending on who's telling, it's often very different. But what would you say is the basic outline of the story that we know today, from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [19:23] Well, I think that the original basis is that he is an outlaw, which in English law at the time meant something very specific. It didn't mean he was a convicted criminal. It meant that he had failed to attend court. He was summoned to court, he was asked to come three times, he would have been, and then--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [19:42] He did not show? Richard Townsley: [19:43] So, he didn't show. So, he's on the run. That placed him outside the law, which in a strict legal sense meant that anyone could kill him because he was now not protected by the law because he defied it. So, he's an outlaw. It never, ever tells us why. In various poems and tales, right back to the earliest, he's always wanted, but they never actually say why. The reason I like the idea of being My Lord Sheriff, or just the Sheriff, is that the Sheriff is there right at the beginning. He is always the adversary of Robin Hood. And again, we're never really told why. And the Sheriff is never named. We know the name of pretty well every Sheriff right back almost 1000 years. There's a Sheriff still today. There's a High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire today. Doug Still: [20:30] Who's the Sheriff today? Richard Townsley: [20:32] It's Michael Paul Southby. It's slightly confusing because in fact we have three Sheriffs. There's me, who I consider myself to be the historic Sheriff. There is a Sheriff of Nottingham appointed by the City of Nottingham, which is in effect, she's the Deputy Mayor, the Lord Mayor of Nottingham, and it is a city council appointment, and that goes back to about the 1500s. We have the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, which is an appointment of the Crown. This current Sheriff was appointed by the late Queen and his appointment has been extended by the current King. Doug Still: [21:05] I see. Well, you have a lot of authority with me, so we're safe here. Richard Townsley: [21:10] So, he's an outlaw, he's living in the forest and that's quite important. That it's Sherwood. Sherwood was a royal forest, so it had special protection, it was used for the King's personal hunting grounds. There was a lot of resentment around the use of royal forests and the imposition that made on local people. They couldn't hunt in areas where they had traditionally hunted maybe hundreds of years before. There was a lot of extra laws and rules designed to protect those forests and protect the royal hunting grounds, which fell heavily on ordinary people. So, there were some advantages of living in and around royal forests, but generally, it was an imposition, and local people didn't like that. Doug Still: [21:51] Which King declared it a royal forest? Richard Townsley: [21:53] Well, Sherwood is actually Shirewood. England is divided up into shires, the old Saxon word is "skūr" and that's where we get Sheriff from. It's "skūr refer". The "refer" was the "reeve", so the shire-reeve became the Sheriff. So, Sherwood was the Shirewood, so it's always been the wood of the shire. By the looks of it, there was a royal hunting ground here before the coming of the Normans. Certainly, William I, William the Conqueror, was a big huntsman and he really did exploit the royal hunting grounds and I think he drew very tight lines around them, imposed very strict laws, and kept them very much as royal preserves. That was, I think, resented, A, because it was an imposition on local people, and B, he was the invader. He was the foreigner come and took over England. So, William I is really the man that imposes the strict version of royal forest that we know in the Middle Ages. Doug Still: [22:56] So, there were foresters back then, right? Richard Townsley: [22:59] Yes. Doug Still: [23:00] What was the role of a forester? Richard Townsley: [23:03] Right at the top of the chain, the King appointed a keeper of the royal forests. So, he was at the very top of it. They then divided England into two along the line of the River Trent, which runs through Nottinghamshire. So, everything North of the Trent had a keeper north and we had a keeper south. The southern half of England had a sub-keeper, and then each forest had a keeper too. So, there's a chain of command going all the way up to the king. And then, the king appointed a keeper. So, it was a keeper of Sherwood Forest and then he appointed foresters. And then, the foresters also had verderers, and various other officials streaming out. It was quite a bureaucracy. There was a whole clutch of people supposed to overlook it, but mainly the job of the forester was to be out in the forest and they were managing the forest. Doug Still: [23:55] I see, and how did your jurisdictions overlap, you and the foresters? Richard Townsley: [24:00] Well, for a lot of the time, the Sheriff had full legal responsibility for the shire, for the conduct of the shire, which involved the courts and collecting taxes. That's one of the reasons Sheriffs were not very popular. They had to collect all revenue due to the Crown came through the hands of the Sheriff for every shire. That obviously makes them-- nobody likes paying taxes, certainly not in Medieval, and they didn't. Generally, their Sheriff didn't always have responsibility for the forest. They did try to keep the jurisdictions separate. If you were caught with a deer-- and we referred to that being red-handed, if you were caught red-handed, you'd literally killed it inside the royal forest, you would be the responsibility of the keeper and the foresters and would go before a forest court. If you then took the deer home, which meant crossing the line into normal Nottinghamshire, you then became the responsibility of the Sheriff. So, you'd then come before the county court. Doug Still: [25:01] I see. Very complicated. And Robin Hood, I'm sure, did not want to come in front of anybody. Richard Townsley: [25:07] I think that's the basis of being outlawed. If you were caught, you're either caught red-handed and you knew you were going to be found guilty, so there's simply no point waiting around for the verdict. Let's you and I--we're bang to rights here. Or, which is equally likely in Medieval England, that you just knew that the people you were lined up against, you weren't going to have a fair trial because, in all the early stories, Robin is described as a yeoman, which puts him above serf. It makes him a free man, but it doesn't make him high up the social scale. So, abbots, lords, bishops, knights, all these people would kind of outrank him in the social structure. So, if there was some dispute, it's more likely the Sheriff is going to take the word of these people who are going to be closer to him in his social status, than someone like Robin. That's possibly why he went on the run. Doug Still: [25:58] So, Robin was a yeoman? Richard Townsley: [26:00] Yes. That's an interesting twist in the tale because in all the early references, they're absolutely clear about that. He's described again and again as a yeoman, and that's good, honest English stock. He's solid, a working man. He's going to have a job, a trade. He's not an aristocrat. He isn't a landowner. He might have owned a small farm of his own, but he is not a peasant, and he's definitely not a lord. In the later tales, he becomes that. That's where we get Earl of Huntingdon. One of my favorite films is the 1938 Errol Flynn The Adventures of Robin Hood, and by then he's become a dispossessed Earl and has moved up the social [unintelligible 00:26:41]. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [26:45] Seven black friar's robes were brought for the king and his companions. The Hoods hid their faces well. His Majesty hung a purse of 100 golden pounds under his robe. They traveled on, laughing and joking, past recently harvested fields and scattered clumps of forest. Soon, the trees grew denser, and a few miles later, the party was well within the forest. "We forgot to bring anything to drink. Right now, I would give £50 for something to quench my thirst." No sooner had the king spoken than from the underbrush stepped a tall fellow with merry blue eyes. "Truly, holy brother," he said, taking hold of the king's reins. "We keep an inn nearby, and for £50, we will not only give you a generous drink of wine but also as noble a feast as you have ever had." The man gave a shrill whistle, and the bushes on either side of the road crackled to yield up 60 strong yeomen in Lincoln green. "What sort of naughty rogue are you?", the King said. "Have you no respect for holy men?" "Not in this case. My name is Robin Hood. You may have heard it before." "How dare you?", King Richard said." "Please let me and my brothers travel forward in peace." "I cannot," Robin replied." "It would be very bad manners to let such holy men travel onward with empty stomachs." "But since you offer so much for a little drink of wine, I'm sure you can afford a stay at our inn. Show your purse to me, reverend brother, rather than have me strip off those robes and find it myself." "Do not use force," the King said sternly. "Here is our purse, but do not lay hands upon our person." King Richard drew out and offered his purse. Will Scarlett took the purse and counted out the money. Then, Robin, had him keep £50 for themselves and put £50 back. This he handed to the king. "Here, brother. Now, how about putting back your hood so I can see your face?" "I cannot," the King said, drawing back. "We seven have vowed not to show our faces for 24 hours." "Then keep them covered," Robin said, "for I would never ask you to break your vows." Robin then called seven of his yeomen to lead the mules, and the mock friars were taken into the depths of the forest. They soon came to the clearing in front of the great oak tree. Doug Still: [29:19] So, they were bandits essentially though, right? Or would you call them that? Richard Townsley: [29:24] Yes. Again, an interesting point there, isn't it? It made me think a little bit of the American relationship with Bonnie and Clyde. I mean, they were murderers, weren't they? They were bank robbers, but they're still kind of seen as some heroism there. They're still a sort of-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [29:39] Right, romanticized. Richard Townsley: [29:41] Yes, and maybe more like Jesse James. He becomes a bandit and a robber, but he's originally supposed to have been cheated out of some land by the faceless railway company or whatever. There's this definite element in Robin Hood that he is doing good by being a robber. Various poets and various ballads refer to him as doing poor men good or poor men no harm. There's some element of only picking on targets that were not popular, particularly the high church officers. Abbots come in and bishops come in, a lot of [unintelligible 00:30:21] from Robin Hood. Doug Still: [30:22] Was there ever a story told from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [30:25] [laughs] No. Doug Still: [30:27] Sort of like Wicked, you know? Richard Townsley: [30:29] The Sheriff gets very bad press. It falls into two categories. The Sheriff is either a blundering fool, and he's easily tricked. A lot of the early Robin Hood stories have disguise as an element. There's one where Robin Hood waylays a potter who's on his way to a market in Nottingham. He's coming through Sherwood Forest. Robin Hood sort of hijacks the potter. The potter fights him, and the potter wins or does well in the fight. So, Robin Hood doesn't rob him. Doug Still: [3 1:00] He has respect. Richard Townsley: [31:02] Yes. He earns respect because he's resisting. He's also a tradesman. He stands up for himself. He would be equal status as a yeoman. But Robin takes his stock, goes into the city, sells the pots, sells some nice pots to the Sheriff's wife. In fact, in that story, the Sheriff's wife is one of the first women characters in the whole stories, is the Mrs. Sheriff. She so likes this roguish pottery seller that she invites him to dinner, which would be highly unlikely. They're wining and dining with the Sheriff. The potter says he knows where to find Robin Hood. The Sheriff says, "Okay, tomorrow, take me into the forest." Takes him into the forest, lures him into a trap, strips him of all his worldly goods and his clothes, sticks him on his horse and sends him back, and says, "The only reason I'm not slitting your throat is because I like your wife." [Douglas laughs] He's a sort of blundering fool-- I mean, the idea of a Medieval Sheriff being so duped with his nonsense. Doug Still: [32:05] I don't buy it for a minute. Richard Townsley: [32:06] I don't buy it either. [laughs] It has to be the fall guy. Doug Still: [32:12] Well, I think that's a story or a version of the story waiting to be told, then. Richard Townsley: [32:16] Definitely, yes. Doug Still: [32:18] Did Robin Hood hide out in that tree? Richard Townsley: [32:20] Absolutely, he definitely did. My grandmother told me so. Doug Still: [32:23] Okay. [laughs] So that's the end of that. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [32:27] I've no historical evidence to back that up, but she told me it. So, that's it. Doug Still: [32:33] Could you talk about where the name, The Major Oak, came from? Paul Cook: [32:37] Sure. It's been a tourist attraction for hundreds of years and it was originally called the Queen's Oak. On some maps, you might see it and it says the Queen's Oak. We think this was because it was literally one of the biggest trees in the forest, and it wasn't taken for timber, it was allowed to grow, and it was called the Queens Oak. Some of the other names for it as well is called the Cockpen Tree. The Cockpen Tree, because they used to do a lot of animal fighting, such as dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting, and also cock fighting. Doug Still: [33:20] Sherwood Forest has come a long way in that regard, hasn't it? [laughter] Richard Townsley: [33:23] Yes. It certainly has. Paul Cook: [33:25] But in 1790, a chap came along. He was a retired army soldier. He was a major, Major Hayman Rooke. He lived in Mansfield Woodhouse, which is just outside the forest-- Well, it would have been inside the forest, but now it's one of the towns outside the forest. For his retirement, he just used to go out and do the early form of documenting these trees. So, like we've got the Ancient Tree forum now and the inventory, he would go around Nottinghamshire recording all these trees. And in 1790, he wrote a book called Remarkable Oaks in Nottinghamshire. Again, on the front cover of the book was The Major Oak. In those days, it was just the Mighty Oak or the Queen's Oak, or the Cockpen Tree. Doug Still: [34:20] Are there many copies of that book in existence? Paul Cook: [34:24] I know you can see it online. Somebody's put it online. I have never seen a copy in the flesh, in the paper. I've never seen a copy of it, but I've read digital versions of it. There's all these different big oak trees that are actually recorded in this book. From then onwards, from 1790 onwards, it started to be called The Major Oak Tree, or the Major's Oak Tree. Doug Still: [34:55] All right, we dropped the "S." Paul Cook: [34:56] Yeah. It's now just become known as The Major Oak. It's named after Major Hayman Rooke, who was a retired army major. He was writing and documenting trees around this county. Doug Still: [35:10] Well, it sounds like he deserved it. Paul Cook: [35:12] Definitely. Doug Still: [35:13] It sounds like a great book. And he one-upped Robin Hood. Paul Cook: [35:17] By the way, he was born in 1723, so it's actually his 300th birthday. Doug Still: [35:24] Well, happy birthday, Major Rooke. After the break, we'll meet some of the other veteran oak trees in the forest and then learn about the extensive care The Major Oak has received in the past 50 years. This is This Old Tree. Nigel Holmes: [35:43] "By my soul," Merry King Richard said, when he had dismounted, "You have a fine band here, Robin. King Richard himself would be glad of such a bodyguard." Doug Still: [35:54] An archery competition was created. Members of the Merry Band had to shoot three arrows into a wreath at 120 paces. If they missed, they would get thrown by the wrestler, David of Doncaster. Some succeeded, but Wat the Tinker missed, and he was hurled into the mud with a splat. Everyone laughed. When it was Robin Hood's turn, a crooked feather made him miss too. Nigel Holmes: [36:19] And Robin flung his bow to the ground in irritation. "Curse it. Give me a clean arrow, and I will split the stake with it." The yeomen laughed louder than ever. "No, good master," Will Scarlett said. "The arrow was as good as any other shot today. David is waiting for you, for he wishes to pay you what he owes." "I am king in Sherwood, and no subject may lay hands on the king, but I will yield to the holy friar." He turned to the King. "Please, brother, will you give me my penance?" "With all my heart," Merry King Richard replied, rising from his seat, "You kindly relieved me of the heavy weight of £50, and I would like to thank you properly." "If you can truly throw me," Robin said, "I will give you back your money. But if you fail, brother, I will take the rest." "So be it," the King said. Doug Still: [37:18] Okay. Back to Paul Cook. What are the names of some of the other English oak trees in Sherwood Forest? Paul Cook: [37:25] We've got quite a few trees around the forest that we give names, and I suspect it was the same in the old days as well, you would name these trees because some of the trees would actually be part of your navigation and there'd be compass trees. The trees had branches at the north, south, east, and west point, and if there were any of the branches on there, you just take them off. So, they were called compass trees to help you navigate around the forest. Doug Still: [37:49] First I've heard of that. Paul Cook: [37:50] But we've also got things like Twister. Twister is one where the tree is literally just grown in a spiral. It's amazing. You look at it and you think, "How the hell is that tree still standing?" It's just grown in a spiral. We call that Twister. Doug Still: [38:08] I would love to see a picture of Twister. Paul Cook: [38:10] I've got a picture. Yeah, I'll send you a picture of a Twister. Doug Still: [38:12] Oh, great. Paul Cook: [38:14] We have the Bee Tree. This has got a colony of bees inside that, and I know it's been recorded there for about the last 45 years. Doug Still: [38:24] Incredible. Paul Cook: [38:25] Yeah. With the hollowing of the oak trees, it's like a cave. So, in the summer, it's quite cool. It's a nice, steady temperature. In the winter, it's again a nice slightly warmer than the outside temperature. The queen bee has been living in there and hibernating in there and obviously successions. This is a recorded bee's nest in there for the last 45 years. We have one called Man-eating Caterpillar because it's--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [38:57] [laughs] A Man-eating Caterpillar? Paul Cook: [38:59] Yeah, the Man-eating Caterpillar. It's got like legs, like the Eiffel Tower in Paris, if you can imagine the Eiffel Tower or Blackpool Tower. It stands high amongst the rest, and it's got hollowing underneath, and it's got legs. So, you can actually crawl inside it and then you can look up inside the tree, and it's said that once you go in there, you'll never come out. And then, we've got one called Rotten Roger, and it's named after a villain who was trapped inside the oak tree by Robin Hood. These are one of the tales that comes out. A lot of these tales, because you've also got to remember, in those days, not many people could read or write, so everything was by word of mouth. And most of it is true. There's a lot of true facts in there. And then, people say, "Oh, that doesn't sound very good, let's make it a bit more sexier," and start adding things in." And then, you end up with a fantastic story. Doug Still: [40:02] Yeah. And the good ones have staying power over time. Paul Cook: [40:06] Exactly. Yeah. We've got one called the Parliament Oak as well, and that's just within Sherwood Forest, but it's not on our bit of the land. The Parliament Oak is the only place in the UK where the Parliament has sat outside of London. With the King and all the MPs and members of Parliament, the King was on holiday in Sherwood Forest and there was something going on, and they had to have an emergency session outside of Parliament. And so they met underneath this oak tree called the Parliament Oak. Doug Still: [40:43] Symbolically, what do you think forest means in the Robin Hood tale? Do you think it's changed over time? Richard Townsley: [40:49] Yes, I think it has this historic meaning of a place where people were forbidden to carry out their normal lives. It would be normal to think, "Well, I can nip down--" peasants and what have you, Medieval England, starvation was never far away. The idea that you could just go into the wood and bring out something to eat, to feed your family, whether it was a hare or a squirrel or a rabbit or whatever. What would be considered just a basic human right, and the fact that the forestry laws prevented that would be a source of a lot of resentment. Doug Still: [41:22] So, it wasn't a scary place, exactly? Richard Townsley: [41:24] No, I definitely wouldn't think so. Not for local people. One of the misunderstandings I think a lot of people, particularly in America, have is that England is a small country, so even though there were big areas of forest, they were never densely forest. Sherwood Forest was as much heath as it was woodland, so there were lots of open space. There were certainly trades going on in the forest. Charcoal burning would have been common. Doug Still: [41:55] There were people there. There were hamlets. Richard Townsley: [41:57] Yeah. Sherwood Forest included villages. It included at least three big abbeys in the midst of the forest. There were roads through them. There were places you could stay out of the way of the authorities, but probably only with the support of local people. Doug Still: [42:15] So, it was life-giving. Was looked on as life-giving. Richard Townsley: [42:19] Absolutely, yeah. Doug Still: [42:21] Could you describe the support system around The Major Oak? There's a network of posts and poles and probably cables as well, right? Paul Cook: [42:31] Yes. When you walk towards The Major Oak, I think one of the first things you might see are the props. There's a lot of props holding up the branches. Now, in the old days, there used to be wooden, like, telegraph pole props. These were big pine struts and there was quite a few of them. There was about 15 or 16 of these props. They were put in about the early or mid-1900s. And in about 1902 to 1908. It was still of significant size, and they looked at the branches and it was starting to show signs of decay and collapse--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [43:18] So, they were stressed. Paul Cook: [43:18] It's falling off-- stress, yeah. So, what they did in 1902 is they started putting some chains and pulleys up in the top of The Major Oak. They took the top center bit, they put a metal banded ring around it, and then just like a wagon wheel, they took off spokes all the way around the tree and then used those to prop up some of these big, heavy branches. So, there are chains and pulley systems in the top of the oak to help take the stress and the weight of these big, heavy branches. Doug Still: [43:57] It looks like an elderly person too when you see this. You really get the sense that this tree is cared for, it's protected, it's old. Could you describe the root mapping project that was done in the last couple of years? What was that? What were you trying to accomplish and how did you do it? Paul Cook: [44:17] Yeah, we were looking at The Major Oak and it wasn't looking very good. For the last couple of years, it was always the last tree to come out in leaf. The leaves were looking very small, they were looking very yellow. It just wasn't looking good at all. It looked like it was about to die. It was getting stressed. So, we were looking at all the aspects of the tree, so we took a load of foliage samples, and we sent them off for analysis and we looked at the ground around the tree as well. Bearing in mind we get over 350,000 visitors a year, all coming to see The Major Oak, all wanting to come and climb all over it, they want to touch it, they want to walk around it, they want to have their photograph. Doug Still: [45:10] They're compacting the soil all around the tree. Paul Cook: [45:13] Exactly. Moving forward to the last couple of years, it was starting to show more signs of being stressed. Like I said, the leaves were very small. It was coming out late. The whole canopy leaves were looking sparse and very yellow. We knew what was happening above ground. We could see what was happening above ground. We wanted to see what was happening below ground. As part of the Ancient Tree Forum, we came across a lady called Sharon Hosegood, and Sharon Hosegood Associates. And she does root radar. She did a demonstration to us at Burghley House. We approached her and said, "Look, this is what's happening with The Major Oak. We would love for you to come and do some root radar of The Major Oak." I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like a pushchair, and it's got sensors, and it literally scans about 2 meters below the surface of the ground, and it can pick up roots, and you can tell that-- it picks up roots anything above 20 mm, they're roots above the size of 20 mm, it will pick those up. Doug Still: [46:34] And it's creating a digital map? Paul Cook: [46:36] And it creates a digital map of all the way around The Major Oak. You scan around as much as you can to pick up these roots. Now, with The Major Oak, we've got quite a few trees at the back of it, but it's completely open at the front. There's a nice green where people have picnics at the front. We always assumed that the roots went out as far as the branches. Wherever the drip line of the canopy of the tree was, we always assumed that's where the roots would go as well. So, we started scanning that and then went further and then we went further and further out. In fact, we went out to 40 meters from the trunk. We're back to the trunk. We walked out 40 meters and were still finding the roots of the tree. Doug Still: [47:22] Yeah. Paul Cook: [47:23] Of the oak tree. Doug Still: [47:24] But stunning the long reach that those roots have. Paul Cook: [47:27] And they were the ones that we could see. They were the ones that were 20 mm and bigger. Smaller roots were obviously going beyond that, and the fibrous roots were also going beyond that as well. So, this gave us a better understanding of what was happening below the ground. Doug Still: [47:47] What do you think is the most interesting question you've been asked at The Major Oak or in the forest? Richard Townsley: [47:55] I think that the nicest ones are all about the trees and how they're related to each other. And there's some interesting theories there, and I think a lot of people like to get into that, actually, because The Major Oak has been there so long, it's the grandmother to almost every oak tree that we can see, isn't it? Everybody locally, the first thing they say to you is, "I've been in there." They tell you as though it's only them that's ever been in. And you know they'll sigh and [unintelligible 00:48:22] "You know I've been in there, don't you?" And I'll go, "Yeah-- [unintelligible 00:48:24]. Paul Cook: [laughs] Me too. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [48:27] People go, "Yeah, before the fence was up, I used to go in this one." That brings back the stories, and often that's the nature of the visit, isn't it? It's perhaps a grandparent and family that have moved away, sometimes America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, these places, and family are revisiting. It's a trigger then for the grandparents to say, "Well, you know, we played in there." And then, the little children, great-grandchildren, and grandchildren, they then want to play in it as well. "Why can't we go in?" You have to explain, "Well, actually, as all playing in it back in the day, were hurting the tree, and now we understand that and we don't do that anymore because we want it to survive for another millennium, if possible." Doug Still: [49:12] That's the story of landmark trees everywhere. They span the generations and people have stories from when they were kids or their grandparents, and it's just been going on a lot longer in Sherwood Forest. Richard Townsley: [49:29] Yes, that's true. I've got a Facebook page of the Sheriff of Nottingham and I put regular pictures up about The Major Oak. I ran something recently when we're talking about Major Oak and the tree and just encouraging people to say, "Well, what local trees have you got?" There are Queen's Oaks, King's Oaks, Pilgrim's Oaks, Shire Oaks, these names crop up and people tell you about their trees and share pictures of them. There are lots of major oaks all over the place, certainly all over England. We just have this extra twist of the Robin Hood story, which makes it particularly special. Doug Still: [50:08] Are there any contemporary groups associated with Robin Hood that make annual visits or that you know of? Richard Townsley: [50:15] We have a number. [laughs] One of the things I like to say is that there are three Sheriffs, but there are an awful lot of Robin Hoods, and we have various Robin Hoods dotted around Nottingham. There's at least two or three in Nottingham itself. There's an official one and there's an unofficial one. There's a number of them. We have a very good group operating in and around Sherwood now called the Outlaws, and they do the outlaw side of the stories and I do the official Sheriffy side. There are lots of medieval reenactment groups and people like that. And it's a little bit odd. I've been doing historical reenactments for a very long time, but most history people are a bit sniffy about Robin Hood because it is seen as this element of fantasy and fiction and how much is true and how much is not. So, people that are devotees of Richard III or whatever are a bit, "Uh, Robin Hood is not really real history." [laughter] Richard Townsley: [51:14] Which is why I like to focus on the Sheriff because we absolutely know the Sheriff is real. We know a lot of what he did and we know a lot of other functions. I think using Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest as tales to entertain on their own right, is great. But also, that's a nice way into medieval history to talk about the kings, to talk about the forest, talk about who did what, which is really good. I've got a three-year-old granddaughter who is half Canadian, her mum's Canadian, and she wanted to meet Robin Hood. She came just before Christmas and was absolutely enthralled to meet Robin Hood. Didn't really care at all that her granddad is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Resplendent in the gear I was, but all she wanted really to do was meet Robin Hood. [music] Doug Still: [52:10] Back to Robin Hood. The King, disguised as a monk, threw Robin Hood into the mud with a huge splash and everyone laughed. The money was returned, but suddenly one of the men recognized the King, who revealed his face and in a moment of shock, all of Robin Hood's men kneeled in silence before him. The King's frown turned into a smile and with respect, pardoned the entire band. Robin Hood thought he was in the clear, but the King wasn't done. Nigel Holmes: [52:40] "You have said you would willingly serve me. I accept. You should come back to London with me, along with Little John and your cousin, Will Scarlet, and your musician, Alan-a-Dale. As for the rest of your band, we will have their names recorded as Royal Rangers. But you promised me a feast. Get it ready for I would like to see how you live in the woodlands." That night, the King lay in Sherwood Forest on a bed of green leaves. Early the next morning, he set out for Nottingham Town. Robin Hood and Little John and Will Scarlett and Alan-a-Dale shook hands with all the rest of the band, swearing they would often come to Sherwood to see them. Then, each mounted his horse and rode away with the King. [music] Doug Still: [53:35] As warden and after working so close with The Major Oak all these years, what does the tree mean to you? Paul Cook: [53:42] Well, one of the reasons why I'm working here is because of The Major Oak. My grandfather was a soldier in the Canadian Army, and he went out and fought in the Second World War and he got injured, he got a bit of shrapnel. So, he came to the UK and he was sent to the UK to recover from his injuries. And that's where he met my grandmother. My grandmother used to work in the botanical gardens. She was a gardener in the botanical gardens and obviously, he used to walk around there. Doug Still: [54:18] So, it runs in the family. Paul Cook: [54:20] Yes. So, that's where he met my grandmother. After the war, they decided to settle in the UK. He stayed in the UK, married my grandmother, and lived quite close to Sherwood Forest about 20 minutes from here. Obviously, then they had my mother. And then, I was introduced to The Major Oak when I was about four or five years old. We used to come up here every weekend, Sunday afternoon with a picnic and have a picnic on the green outside The Major Oak. I didn't know then that I would be working in Sherwood Forest. [laughter] Paul Cook: [55:04] I knew I'd be working outside in conservation. I wanted to work outside in conservation. Doug Still: [55:10] But you always remembered that. Paul Cook: [55:11] But that was the main thing I've always remembered. The time I was inside The Major Oak with my grandfather in the 1970s and then came back a good, what was that, 30 years later, to work in Sherwood Forest. So, now it's my job to actually help look after The Major Oak. Doug Still: [55:36] Yeah, and think of all those kids now. Paul Cook: [55:38] I see the same thing every day, yeah. I go to The Major Oak, and I see grandparents with their grandkids taking photographs in front of The Major Oak. So, The Major Oak has been in my life for almost all of it, the past 50 years. Doug Still: [55:58] As Sheriff, do you ever think you'll bring order to the county of Nottingham? Richard Townsley: [56:02] This is a very orderly county. Doug Still: [56:04] Oh, good. Richard Townsley: [56:04] It always has been. [laughs] Doug Still: [56:06] Well, I don't think you should be phased out. Richard Townsley: [56:09] Definitely not. We still need the Sheriff, and you can't have a Robin without a Sheriff. Doug Still: [56:19] As Richard Townsley, what does The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest mean to you? Richard Townsley: [56:24] It's just absolute part of my heritage. It's part of my personal upbringing. As I say, I've got two granddaughters, one is three others, not yet one, and I'm looking forward to bringing the second one here. I think they're not a Townsley until they've been into Sherwood until they've dressed up as Robin Hood and they've run around and we've had a picnic. So, I'm very much looking forward. Her name is Edith and she lives in Bath. We were discussing her being christened. She's going to be christened in the church in Bath, but I think for me, the christening will be when we bring her to the forest and introduce to The Major Oak. It's part of my family and my personal heritage. Doug Still: [57:04] Thank you, tree lovers, for joining me to discover The Major Oak. I'd like to thank my wonderful guests from Sherwood Forest, Paul Cook and Richard Townsley, for bringing this story alive, as well as Rob James for organizing the interviews. Special thanks to my friend, Nigel Holmes, for a spirited reading of excerpts from The Tales of Robin Hood, an edited version of Howard Pyle's book. And even more thanks to friends David Bor and Kim Wass for playing their recorders to provide the lovely early music we've heard. If you've enjoyed this show, please share it with family and friends. If you feel so moved, you can now contribute to the show via the Patreon link on the website, thisoldtree.show. Every dollar will help keep these episodes coming in the future. You can also find past episodes with show notes and transcripts. Thanks again for listening. I'm Doug Still and see you next time with This Old Tree. [music] Nigel Holmes: [58:24] In spite of Robin Hood's promise, it was many years before he saw Sherwood again. Eventually, King Richard died in battle as one might expect of a lionhearted king. After a time, Robin Hood was done with foreign wars. He came home to England and with him came Alan-a-Dale and his fair Ellen. It was springtime when they arrived with green leaves and small birds singing happily, just as they had done in fair Sherwood when Robin Hood roamed merry and free. The sweetness and joy of the time made Robin long to see the woodlands once more. So, Robin went directly to King John who had succeeded Richard the Lionheart and asked permission to visit Nottingham. His Majesty granted the wish but commanded Robin not to remain in Sherwood more than three days. So, Robin Hood and Alan-a-Dale set out for Sherwood Forest. As they approached the forest, Robin felt that he knew every stick and stone he saw. There now was a path he had often walked with Little John. Over there was the way he had gone to seek a certain friar to perform a wedding. As they rode, they shared memories of familiar places and deeds growing more wistful by the moment. At last, they came to the large clearing and the broad spreading great oak tree that had long been their home. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] |
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