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This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Moses Cleaveland Trees (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 16 Published May 26, 2023 [Music] Doug Still 00:05 The year was 1796. A group of surveyors from Connecticut had come to the frontier, just west of Pennsylvania to choose locations for new settlements. Their intent was to map the area south of Lake Erie and create a rough plan in order to sell lots to settlers back in New England. The survey group, led by Moses Cleveland, selected one site at the mouth of the Cuyahoga River that eventually took on his name. When Cleveland and his band arrived, they found a beech-maple forest rich with towering Oaks, Chestnut, Elm and Sycamore. Over time, as Cleveland and the surrounding townships grew, the forest was largely cleared. Flash forward to 1946 when the city of Cleveland was set to celebrate its 150 year anniversary, its sesquicentennial. Arthur Williams was a curator at the Museum of Natural History, and an ecologist with the Cleveland Metropolitan Park Board. And he had an idea to honor the founding of Cleveland. Why not find 150 trees that were alive and sizable back in 1796, thus more than 150 years old, and designate them as heritage trees? And that's exactly what he did. With help and some good PR, he found them, 153 of them actually, dotted throughout Cuyahoga County. They were named the Moses Cleveland trees, and each was initiated with a plaque upon its trunk. The project got a lot of attention that year, and afterward, Arthur Williams hoped the trees would continue to inspire people as living links to the past. But, you know how things go. Would this hallowed group of old trees become lost to time, development, and a changing modern world? [music] Join me as I meet some members of a larger team that recently set out to find all these trees and map their locations. My guests Roy Larick, Margeaux Apple, and Michael Melampy are here to describe their tracking efforts and door knocking diplomacy. What did they learn about the Moses Cleveland trees? And Will their historical legacy survive? I'm Doug Still and this is, This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] While I usually center my stories around the symbolism of a single old tree, I've got to say, designating a collection of heritage trees with a shared name and identity seems like a brilliant idea. As a group, these arboreal veterans have an extra aura, like they are part of an exclusive club. The upside is that they are appreciated across neighborhoods, with special pride shared among residents and landowners. But that regional distribution is also the group's downside, as some trees are more vulnerable to the whims and priorities of any individual landowner, as well as to the lack of any coordinated care. Some just get forgotten. Finding them again is like reuniting them in a way, bringing back their collective power and identity. There's something really cool about that. It makes me think of the Blues Brothers movie when Jake and Elwood spread out across Chicago to find their old wayward bandmates in order to get the group back together. These Moses Cleveland trees are forever linked. The chief organizer of the project was Roy Larick, a retired archaeologist with a second career in watershed science and advocacy consulting with Blue Stone Conservation. He was a Paleolithic archaeologist as a matter of fact, and I asked him what that means. Roy Larick 04:17 And that means basically, it's got to be older than 11,000 years. It has to be part of the ice age. And so, and of the Pleistocene, by convention, 11,300 or something like that. And if it's later than that, it is, no, it's not in my expertise basically. Doug Still 04:37 It's too new. Roy Larick 04:38 Yeah. Too new, right. Doug Still 04:40 Where are some of the places you've worked? Roy Larick 04:43 I have worked in southwest Europe, so France and Spain, a little bit in England, and a tiny bit in Italy, but France and Spain basically. And I have had the great fortune of being part of excavation teams for a number of sites in southwest France, cave sites that date anywhere from 450,000 years ago to 11,300. Doug Still 05:12 But what brings you to trees? Roy Larick 05:15 Trees represent, for me, the most basic ecology that develops on top of a substrate; on top of either bedrock, or in the case of Northeast Ohio, glacial deposits. And they are, to my mind, the equivalent of… the floral equivalent of megafauna that I have dealt with as an archaeologist. Doug Still 05:40 He pointed to his appreciation of a book written by Jared Farmer called Elderflora: A Modern History of Ancient Trees, published in 2022. It's an intellectual examination of how the world's oldest trees symbolize the best and worst of modern civilization, as it says in the book jacket. I went and got a copy. Roy Larick 06:01 For me, the trees are… their elderflora. They represent, you know, the basic ecological associations, regional ecological associations that I can understand, and most people can understand as well. So trees are the … trees are the ecology, the basic ecology on top of the bedrock. Doug Still 06:25 I see. When did you first become aware of the Moses Cleveland trees? Roy Larick 06:30 Clevelanders are generally aware of what we call Moses Cleveland trees, at least of a certain generation here. So the first Moses Cleveland trees were designated in 1946, and I'm a child of the ‘50s and ‘60s, so this was a term that you get taught, you tend to know if you're a Clevelander. My direct association with them goes back to 2019, when a friend slash colleague of mine, Bill Barrow (William Barrow) of Cleveland State University Special Collections, retired and became the president of the early settlers association of the Western Reserve. And that organization had taken up the Moses Cleveland trees in 1970, or ‘71, and had worked with them until 1986. And Bill Barrow inherited a number of files that were labeled Moses Cleveland trees, he didn't know what to do with them, and he asked me, as the most science oriented person he knows, to look through these files and tell him what they were about, basically… what the value was. Doug Still 07:40 So he brought this list to you. I'd love to get back to it, but I'd like to go back in time first. Roy Larick 07:48 Okay. Doug Still 07:49 …and ask you: who was Moses Cleveland? Roy Larick 07:52 Moses Cleveland was a resident of Connecticut back in the Revolutionary War era. He had been a general in the US Army and had retired as a rather wealthy man, I believe… at least he became so. And he was part of this group called the Connecticut Land Company, which had put together, back in 1795, about $3 million to purchase what Connecticut called its Western Reserve, that had been given to the state by US Congress in 1786. And the state of Connecticut sat on this for eight or nine years, till they sold it to this land company. Moses Cleveland was a principal in that company and he was hired as the chief surveyor. Doug Still 08:46 So he was from Connecticut. Roy Larick 08:48 He was from Connecticut. Right. And Glastonbury, I believe. So he assembled, in the winter of 1795 - ‘96, 55 people. Some of them were trained surveyors, many more had other skills like hunting, and they were the petitioners for the group. There were all kinds of people who had several jobs: ax men… ax men and chain men, who cut down trees and the like. In any event, this was a major push during the summer of 1796, to come to the western border of Pennsylvania, and survey an area that was 120 miles long (that is, from east to west) and about 50 miles deep from Lake Erie down to a southern border. And it was basically…Connecticut got the right to double itself, west of Pennsylvania. There were, of course, Native Americans here. Not a great presence because this was a buffer zone between Heron speakers in the northwest and Iroquoian speakers to the east. So … each of those groups’ influence trailed out in this area along the Cuyahoga River. So it was basically without permanent Native American settlements, but a lot of travel across the area. Doug Still 10:14 Who were the indigenous tribes? Roy Larick 10:16 Well, it would have been the… the Wyandot was a principal one. There were Ottawa’s, there were Shawnee, and there were… right along the Pennsylvania border there were Iroquois: Seneca Iroquois. Doug Still 10:36 So it was sort of an overlapping jurisdiction right where the Cleveland settlement began. Roy Larick 10:42 That's right. And to the south of this area… so to the south of the Lake Erie drainage and the Tuscarawas drainage, there were settlements. And for that reason, there were missionaries here. And there had been French missionaries earlier. And they… there was a group of Moravian missionaries in the Muskingum Watershed, and they had some dealings here, you know, there was a small presence. Doug Still 11:09 I see. How did these tribes respond to the survey group that came from Connecticut? Roy Larick 11:15 They did encounter some Native Americans and they sent word out that they would be arriving to what's now called Conneaut, Ohio, the northeastern most settlement in Ohio. And they spent some days there negotiating with a small group, I think less than a dozen Native Americans. And they came to one of these ridiculous kinds of contracts, where for just, you know, a few score dollars in cash, and some tools, some, what we would call, trinkets these days, and some whiskey - some barrels of whiskey -, they would obtain this area, at least from the Pennsylvania line to the Cuyahoga River. Doug Still 12:03 And so what did Moses Cleveland and his team do once they got to this spot? Like how did they select this one spot? Roy Larick 12:11 The Moses Cleveland and some of the principles had taken a land traverse from Connecticut, across New York, and into the little bit of Pennsylvania that sticks up to Lake Erie. And they… this is where they set up … this conference, series of conferences, but most of the group and all of the supplies came by boat from Irondequoit Bay, actually, or just Sodus, New York. And so they had to traverse their boats up around Niagara Falls and into Lake Erie, and they met at Conneaut. There was a major storm on Lake Ontario when these boats were coming. And the boat that held the barrels of whiskey foundered, and they lost a lot of their daily grog ration. Doug Still 13:08 Aw man! [both Doug and Roy laugh] So they were not happy. Roy Larick 13:12 They were not happy. It was like a military enlistment and part of it was a ration. Doug Still 13:17 What was the forest like when they got there? Because obviously, some of these trees, that we're about to talk about, were there. Roy Larick 13:26 You know, we know it as basically a beech maple forest region wide. And it's an extension from New England, across Northern New York and into this area, and it actually goes into Michigan, and I think goes up to Wisconsin a little bit. So beech was the principal tree, sugar maple was second, but it was varied, and especially by terrain. So in the higher, more humid areas, beech and sugar maple dominated. On the slopes where it was a bit drier, oaks dominated. And then in the swamps, there was a combination of swamp white oak and pin oak that tended… and Elm and chestnut, which are gone entirely. Yeah. Doug Still 14:14 Was it a closed canopy forest? Or were there open areas that might have been cleared? Roy Larick 14:20 It was a closed canopy, I think we can say that. There has been some argument about this, that there were… that this area is the southernmost point of the northern forest, It's the western most most point of the Eastern forest, and conversely, it's the easternmost extension of the prairie, the Tallgrass prairie. So there had been arguments that there were isolated prairies, and that, upon review, that doesn't seem to be the case. Doug Still 14:53 So then the survey team finished up by the end of September? Roy Larick 14:57 Yes. Doug Still 14:58 And then they went back to Connecticut. Roy Larick 15:00 Yes. Doug Still 15:00 Then what’d they do? Roy Larick 15:02 They wrote everything up, and they graded the townships, that is, better to worse. And then the Connecticut Land Company took over and formed basically blocks of land to sell, that would have nicer and lesser townships with them. And everybody got a share, basically. And then they hired agents to actually sell land back in New England and out here, in the frontier. [music] Doug Still 15:33 When did the city or town of Cleveland take its name? Roy Larick 15:36 Right then and there. Doug Still 15:39 We are going to take a quick break. When we come back, Moses Cleveland Tree Project leader, Roy Larick, describes how the original heritage tree effort came about in 1946. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [music] The sesquicentennial, which is a word that I just learned, thanks to researching this. How do trees become involved in that idea? Roy Larick 16:23 There was a large celebration. And there were a couple of aspects to it. So, Cleveland is 150 years old. For a New Englander that doesn't sound so old, but at the time, it was, you know, much more than a century. It was going to be the first really large celebration, and I think that a lot of this celebration had to do with the end of World War II. It was just a year after the war had formally ended, and the economy was just starting to grow. People were beginning to feel good about this area, which had certainly developed industrially a number of times, very early on. But the war effort – the World War II effort – meant a lot of manufacturing, for armaments, and machines of various sorts. Okay, so there was wealth here, and there was a good feeling. There was a committee, a Sesquicentennial committee. And I don't know how they got in contact with Arthur B. Williams of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, the forest ecologist there, but there arose this effort on the part of Arthur Williams to identify 150 trees that would have been present when Moses Cleveland was there. So they wouldn't have been seedlings or even saplings, they would have been decent trees, so they would be more than 150 years old. And as a forest ecologist, he wanted to see the range of forest species represented in this group of 150 trees. So he took over and there were other ecologists, our Metroparks – our Cleveland Metroparks – is a very large organization that, back in the 1910s, began to establish hundreds and hundreds of acres of reservations. Okay? so the chief naturalist from that organization aided in this. And once again, it was Arthur Williams’ idea to go out and get as many species of 150 year old trees as was possible, and they ended up with 23. And some of them really aren't trees that grow that long in the forest. But they still were picked and Arthur Williams knew himself … that by the end of the sesquicentennial year, that some of these trees that were in pretty poor shape, still old, might be gone. So they did identify – designate – 153, just to make sure there would be 150 at the end of the year. Doug Still 19:05 So they had 23 different species. What are some of the species that they chose? Roy Larick 19:10 The dominant ones are the oaks, which tend to be the longest lived around here. So, white oak, swamp white oak, bur oak, various red oaks, black oak included, and sugar maples were quite represented because that is a dominant tree, beeches, yes, although by that time beeches were having problems due to urban disturbance. I’ll backup to say that the… one of the more important things about these Moses Cleveland trees is that Arthur Williams wanted them to be either on public ways or quite visible from them. Okay? So that means that trees like beech, that are sensitive to root disturbance, were not often found next to public ways. Oaks tend to be more resistant to disturbance, especially certain ones. Hickories were pretty well represented. Several cucumber magnolias, getting down to the trees that are present in the native forests but never really numerous. Doug Still 20:16 Now there's a sycamore that I read about. Roy Larick 20:18 Sycamore, right. Sycamore is a good one. Sycamores, I think there would have been more, except not too many are located near public ways because the public ways don't go through floodplains, which is the sycamores preferred habitat. Typically the Moses Cleveland trees were indeed forest trees in 1796. But the classic Moses Cleveland trees are those that the early settlers saw in the forest as nice trees and they cleared around them. They left them in open areas. Doug Still 20:49 So who was choosing the trees in 1946? Roy Larick 20:52 It was Arthur Williams and a man named Harold Wallen, who was the chief naturalist for the Metroparks. They were in charge of it. The way they did this was to send letters to mayors of municipalities throughout Cuyahoga County to ask residents or knowledgeable people anyway, to identify trees. Doug Still 21:16 So the Moses Cleveland trees are not just in Cleveland. Roy Larick 21:19 Cuyahoga County. Doug Still 21:21 Once they selected the trees, what did they do next? Roy Larick 21:25 They… each one was personally visited by Arthur Williams, who wrote a description. Unfortunately, not locating it as precisely as one would like 75 years later. Doug Still 21:39 Right. [Doug Still chuckles] And do you have those descriptions in that file you were talking about? Roy Larick 21:46 Yes, we have those descriptions. Doug Still 21:48 And you have them in your collection, or…? Roy Larick 21:51 They are archived at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. Doug Still 21:55 And they included a plaque with each tree, right? Roy Larick 21:59 That's right. A plaque that was made of aluminum, about six by eight inches, just slightly rectangular. And it had the standard Moses Cleveland tree Sesquicentennial, city of Cleveland 1796 to 1946, and then the species name of the tree. Doug Still 22:26 So there was sort of a select group of people that were part of this quote, unquote, Moses Cleveland tree club. Roy Larick 21:34 That's right. Doug Still 22:35 And people, you know, a homeowner would say, “Oh, I've got a Moses Cleveland tree. I've got the plaque right here.” Roy Larick 22:41 Yes. Oh, after the fact. That's right. Most people, still to this day, are proud of a Moses Cleveland tree on their land. Doug Still 22:50 So there are 150 original trees, plus three to make sure that they kept the number at 150. Roy Larick 22:57 That's right. Doug Still 22:58 The number was added to over the years. Roy Larick 23:00 Yes, it was. Doug Still 23:02 How did that occur? Roy Larick 23:04 Arthur Williams, at the end, was probably tired of this. He retired about three years later, never having done much more with the Moses Cleveland trees, except to putting a few in his magnum opus, which is called, The Native Forest of Cuyahoga County. He retired right after finishing that book in 1949, and then the museum itself lost interest entirely. So nothing was done with the Moses Cleveland trees from, let's say, 1946 to about 1970, when, this group I’ve already mentioned, the early settlers association of the Western Reserve got interested. Doug Still 23:48 That's who you belong to, right? Roy Larick 23:50 Yes, I was recruited into this group after I got an interest in the trees myself. Doug Still 23:55 Mmhm. Roy Larick 23:56 So in 1970, they thought that they should inventory all 153 sites, to see what was still around. They did, and this time around, it was not specialists. Okay? The knowledge involved, the forests of trees, was, I want to say, more limited. But they did go out and find the sites and at least determine whether the tree was there, if it was gone, when it had gone, under what conditions. And they brought this back, and they found, I think it was 92 trees, still surviving from this original 153. And they sat on this for some months or a year, and then decided that they should continue the program of designating most Cleveland trees. And so over, actually the next 30 years, yeah, I'm sorry, 20 years, they then sent out various groups to do several score at a time. And eventually, by 1986, they had added another 143. Doug Still 25:11 I see. So it was sort of a slow moving project that added trees over time. Roy Larick 25:16 That's right. There were bursts, you know? And the big burst came in 1976, the bicentennial of the country. And the biggest push, I think there were 100 trees actually designated in 1975, 1976. Doug Still 25:33 the mid-‘80s then…? Roy Larick 25:35 The mid-’80s, once again… what happens with these organizations, you know, the leader retires, and the interest wanes, and that's what happens here. Doug Still 25:48 Although the Early Settlers Association published about these trees in two separate publications over the years, the project was largely dropped until 2019. President Bill Barrow handed off the stack of jumbled files to Roy, and his inner archaeologist, naturalist and community organizer took over. The Moses Cleveland Tree Project was revived. In fact, he connected with a group already interested in the project, the Forest City working group, organized by Sustainable Cleveland, a program with the Mayor's Office of Sustainability. The Forest City working group grew out of an action item in the city's 2015 Cleveland tree plan, an expansive master plan for the urban forest. It included an idea to create a landmark tree program and the Moses Cleveland Tree Project was suggested to be a good place to start. Cathi Lehn is Cleveland’s sustainability manager, and with Forest City Working Group co-chair Courtney Blaschke, she had already started a fledgling effort. Roy joined in and helped lead the effort during the early years of COVID lockdown. Roy Larick 26:57 The common point there was the 225’th anniversary of the city of Cleveland, which has a terrible Latin name for that. I can't tell you… Doug Still 27:08 I can only imagine. [Doug and Roy laugh] Roy Larick 27:10 Yes, it's twice as long as “sesquicentennial”. And…so there was this common interest that this anniversary was coming up. And the sentiment with the Forest City Working Group and the Early Settlers was that this was the time to re-inventory these trees because they were falling. Doug Still 27:30 a concern for these oldest trees and the trees cities canopy in general. Roy Larick 27:35 And that, yes, that's right. This all ties in with a renewed interest in trees around the world, I think, certainly in this country. And in Northeast Ohio in the urban areas, urban canopy has dropped considerably since 1946, in particular. Doug Still 27:55 According to the 2015 Cleveland tree plan, the city had lost about half its tree canopy since the 1950s. When viewed from above, the canopy cover was only 18%, a low number relative to other cities and less than 1/5 of what is possible. The city had been losing about 75 acres of trees annually. And while Cleveland represents less than 20% of Cuyahoga County's area, the broader picture is much the same. In the 2010s, the county lost more than 10 square miles of tree canopy, even as communities tried to build it back. The master plan expressed great urgency and the need for awareness and action. Margeaux Apple 28:36 When they started talking about the Moses Cleveland trees. And the idea of inventorying them, I'm like, this is an amazing project. I am there! It's a treasure hunt for like the biggest oldest trees in Cleveland, like absolutely! [music] Doug Still 28:51 That was Margeaux Apple, one of the inventory volunteers. When we come back from the break, we'll hear from her and another volunteer Michael Malampy about what it was like out searching for these venerable denizens, and what they found, and what it means to Cleveland. We'll return with This Old Tree. Margeaux, welcome to the show. Welcome to This Old Tree. Margeaux Apple 29:38 Thank you for having me. Doug Still 29:40 Where do you work now? And what's your role there? Margeaux Apple 29:43 Yeah, I currently work at Cambridge University Botanic Garden, which is the Botanic Garden of the University of Cambridge in the UK. And my role is on the curatorial team at the Botanic Garden. My title is collections coordinator. I guess I'll take a step back back and talk about what a botanic garden is because I think that's relevant to explaining what curation is. But a botanic garden is a documented collection of plants. And the key term there is documented. So that's what separates a botanic garden from a park or a display garden, is the records that you keep on your plant. So, for any given plant and a botanic garden, you know, we should be able to tell you, first and foremost, you know, what that plant is, you know, if it's a red oak, if it's a white pine, whatever it is, we should be able to tell you what that plant is. We should be able to tell you where it came from, if it came from, you know, a nursery or if it came from, you know, the specific place in the wild, where it was collected as a seed. All of that information, all that metadata is captured in your botanic gardens plant records database. And so I help to manage that database. One of my key roles is assisting in auditing. So our collection differed from other museums and that we have a living collection, right? So things die, things grow, things proliferate, things happen at a botanic garden. Doug Still 31:13 So it's amazing coming from the Moses Cleveland Tree Project. I mean, this is… this is what you do. This is your specialty. Margeaux Apple 31:22 Absolutely. I mean, so before being at Cambridge, I was at Holden Forests and Gardens, which is an arboretum and botanic garden in Cleveland, Ohio, and Cleveland’s where I'm from. and this is what I… I was the plant recorder for that institution. So I, you know, I loved it, like I absolutely loved like everything about plant records. I found it fascinating, I love the inventory process, it just like, it just all clicked. And so when… I think it would… I was trying to remember how I got involved in the Forest City working group… Doug Still 31:53 So that's how you came to the Moses Cleveland trees project? Was through the Forest City Working Group? Margeaux Apple 31:58 Correct. So at the time, the two co chairs of the Forest City working group, so in like, winter 2021, it was Cathi Lehn, who works for the city of Cleveland, who's a fabulous person. And then Courtney Blaschke, who was the community forestry director for Holden, and I think she tapped me at that time. There's nothing better than, like, a big tree, right? Like, just like, there's just such a power to it. And just finding all of these different ones … it was just…it was really fun February, yeah. Doug Still 32:34 Now, how did they train you to do that? Or did you kind of come up with the methodology? Or is it just as simple as taking a list and dividing it up? Margeaux Apple 32:43 They divvied it up by community or by like kind of city limits. So the Moses Cleveland trees are not just in the city of Cleveland, but in the county of Cuyahoga… Doug Still 32:54 Right. Margeaux Apple 32:55 …in Cuyahoga County, right? And so, I was given three lists initially: I was given a list for the city of Cleveland, Parma and Parma heights, which are like just south kind of southwest of the city. Each list had, you know, it was an Excel spreadsheet of, you know, species names, the Quercus alba, a location, and some of them had like the DBH’s that were measured in 1946, 1976, and 1980s. Doug Still 33:30 For those who are wondering, DBH means diameter at breast height, which is how trees are measured, four and a half feet above the ground. Margeaux Apple 33:38 Some of them had notes. The data was very like… some of it was really good, some of it was really sparse, some of it was real detective work, like it was the case where you know, it would say, on Esterbrook playground, and you're like, “well there's no such thing as Esterbrook playground in today – like – today.” I went to like the archival maps of the city and found where Esterbrook playground was, because, you know, there were situations where you wanted to say, “Okay, I think this is the tree, but maybe something didn't match. Maybe the DBH was smaller than it was in 1984.” …There were a few where you had to do some detective work. But for the most part, it was pretty straightforward. You know, you got an address, and you drove to that address, and you knew. You knew before even approaching the address. Doug Still 34:32 I see it. Margeaux Apple 33:34 Yeah, if there's this huge canopy, you're like, “Oh my god, it's here!” Or if you didn't see it, you're like, “Dang, you know, it's, it's not here.” Doug Still 34:43 Right, right. And so what information did you collect? Margeaux Apple 34:46 So I collected species first and foremost, most of them were true to name. Doug Still 34:51 How's your tree ID? Margeaux Apple 34:53 I love tree ID. Yeah. Doug Still 34:56 We'd get along. Margeaux Apple 34:58 It seems like it, yeah. [Doug and Margeaux laugh] Yeah, so I would collect that information. So, taxa, I would collect where, and I would give an address, but I would also… I looked up like city parcel so that information is consistent. Doug Still 35:14 Right. Margeaux Apple 35:15 So that city parcel… I tried to take coordinates… I did, I took coordinates on most of them. So GPS coordinates, I took the DBH. And then I would write any, like, conditional evaluation. So I'd say, it's in good condition, it's fair, it's in poor, and then I try to kind of qualify that information. So say, you know, significant branch dieback, you know, IV up the crown, just anything that was kind of seem pertinent to give somebody kind of a picture of what was going on with this tree. I took pictures of every one too. Doug Still 35:53 Which site that you visited was your favorite? Margeaux Apple 35:56 Well, I think I'm biased a bit because Lakeview cemetery is just, like, just in general, it is a absolutely gorgeous, you know, place just to be; you get a view of the lake from the higher elevations, you have people like James D. Rockefeller, Garfield, the president Garfield, Jeptha Wade, like you have all these really prestigious, I guess, people buried there. And then you have 100% success rate, or retention rate, for the Moses Cleveland trees that have been there since 1946. Doug Still 36:34 That's amazing. And it makes sense because very little changes in a historic cemetery. Things are stable, right? Over time. Margeaux Apple 36:42 Stable, you have a crew of arborists or you know, you have hired arborists to take good care of the trees. I mean, the crazy thing is, though, Doug, like you have the, you know, the bole of the tree, and then maybe two feet from it, a grave, and you're like, they were digging down six feet, like right at the base of this tree. And yet here is this 300 year old white oak with a, you know, five foot diameter, and it seems fine. Like it doesn't seem like it skipped a beat. In the summer of 2021, we led, myself and Roy, led tree tours in Lakeview of the Moses Cleveland trees. So that was like part of the celebration. Doug Still 37:27 Oh that’s great! What's, like, what's the most fantastic tree in the cemetery? Margeaux Apple 37:31 One of the Moses Cleveland trees! There is this white oak there that I was introduced to first in January 2020, by the, then, like, senior horticulturalists of the cemetery. And she showed it to me because it was her favorite tree on the grounds. And I've been going to the cemetery since I was a kid, and I had never been to this part, and I’d never seen this tree, or at least I don't remember it. And it is just like such a presence. It's got a five foot diameter of a base, it's got these beautiful branches that kind of swooped down. And so when I measured it, it was 100 feet tall, and this was in the summer of 2021, or 2020, and it was 117 feet in spread. Doug Still 38:20 Wow. Margeaux Apple 38:21 It was just massive. Like it's just so beautiful. Doug Still 38:24 They can really spread out in the open. Margeaux Apple 38:28 Yeah, and it's just amazing to see. So that, I mean, without a doubt, that is my favorite tree, possibly, like, period, end of statement. Doug Still 38:38 Do you have any unusual stories of visiting someone's house or an interaction with, you know, one of the owners? Margeaux Apple 38:45 I had a few interactions. I remember one woman she asked, you know, she's like, “So who's taking care of this tree?” And I'm like, “Girl, like it's on your property. That's how this works.” [Doug laughs] I'm like, I know, it's like, because you know, you have this huge tree and you have these bows that go right over their house. Like, you know, if one of those went out… that would be just your whole house, right? And that’s not, as you probably know, it's not cheap to maintain these big trees. Doug Still 39:16 No, no. Maybe she was looking to… maybe she thought there was some sort of historic preservation funds for these trees. Maybe there should be. Margeaux Apple 39:24 I know, and I'm like, I wish there was something like that, because I feel like it would make people more inclined and not so, like, skeptical of these trees or whatever. But this was in February 2021 when we were going around so COVID was still very present. And so I remember one woman we were looking for a tree… I think she was in Parma or Parma heights. So we went up to her door and kind of… you go up to the door and then you back up, you know, as you do in COVID times, but um… I was like, “I think there might be one of these Moses Cleveland trees…” I explained the story you know… she's like, “Well, both my son and I have COVID right now, but if you want, like, just go around back and look and see if your tree is there.” And I thought that was really sweet of her. Like let these, you know, two trolling tree searchers just… Doug Still 40:18 Right. We're not gonna get near you but knock yourself out. Margeaux Apple 40:20 Yeah, yeah, people were very curious. One fella, he was like, “I know the tree you're looking for. It's not here anymore, but I can give you… I have the plaque.” And then we went into his backyard, and you could see this new grass patch that was probably, you know, five feet in diameter. And he…and so we took a picture of holding up the plaque in front of the, kind of, blank slate. But then he said that there was a second – this is a white oak – there was another white oak that was pretty, pretty large in diameter, not far from it. And he's like, “I'm pretty sure that's, you know, an offspring of it.” Which is good to see. Doug Still 40:57 I was also put in touch with Michael Melampy, another inventory volunteer in charge of finding Moses Cleveland trees in Berea, and its surrounding towns, which is southwest of Cleveland. Michael Melampy 41:09 Well, I'm a retired professor of biology. I taught biology at the undergraduate level for over three years, mostly at Baldwin Wallace University in Berea, Ohio. And I taught ecology, evolution, vertebrate natural history course, and then … some courses, primarily for non majors that dealt with environmental issues. Doug Still 41:36 When did you first become aware of the Moses Cleveland trees? Were they well known before this project occurred? Michael Melampy 41:44 No. But I knew… There was a retired professor of biology at B.W., who lived about a block away from me, who had one of the Moses Cleveland trees in his yard. And he had a plaque on it. And he sort of explained to me a little bit about how he got involved. Doug Still 42:07 He was already… he was involved in a project? Michael Melampy 42:11 He had applied to have his tree listed as a Moses Cleveland tree. With this, I believe this was called, Early Settlers Association. Doug Still 42:21 I see. So he had this plaque. He knew it was one of them, and wanted to make sure it was on the list, and then it was located. Michael Melampy 42:28 He was, yeah. He was responsible for getting his tree recognized as a Moses Cleveland tree. Doug Still 42:35 But did you have a particular ecological interest in these trees? As a professor? Michael Melampy 42:41 I was interested in finding out what kind of trees were still with us. Starting from the, well, the initial cohort was labeled, designated back in the 1940s, but then, subsequent trees had been added at different times in the 1970s, and 1980s. And I was just interested to see what kinds of… of those initial trees which ones were still standing? Which species seemed to have the greatest longevity, the greatest resilience, in other words? Given that the environment around them was constantly changing, and especially being increasingly urbanized in one way or another. Doug Still 43:28 I asked him about his own interactions with residents. Michael Melampy 43:32 And then I would have to ask permission, of course, from property owners to measure their trees and just examine the trees, if it still existed. I mean, the first step would be to contact the owner and say, “Do you have an old tree? That might be a Moses Cleveland tree?” Doug Still 43:51 Were many people aware of what that even was? Michael Melampy 43:54 Most of the people that had them on their property were aware, yeah. The percentage that still had plaques was probably… I'd say less than half of them still had plaques. But most of them were aware that they had an old tree that had been designated as a Moses Cleveland Tree. Doug Still 44:14 Right, so they're probably happy to tap back into this and have their tree recognized. Michael Melampy 44:19 I wasn't able to contact everyone. But most of the people that I was able to contact were more than happy to let me, if the tree still existed, let me look at it. And some people who had lost their trees would explain to me what happened to the tree. In a couple of cases, I was never able to find out if the tree existed or not because it wasn't able to get onto the property Doug Still 44:47 When the trees weren't there, according to the list, did you notice a pattern? Were they new houses? was there… How would you ascribe the loss of these trees? Michael Melampy 45:00 It varied a lot. Sometimes it looked to me like, like in the case of the tree I just described, the old tree had just died for various reasons. In other cases there were clear indications of development having gone on. Doug Still 45:20 Jumping back to Roy, I asked him what the data told him about the Moses Cleveland trees, and about the Cleveland urban forest in general. Roy Larick 45:29 What became quite clear is the goals of designating Moses Cleveland trees changed quite a bit. Arthur Williams wanted to have the native forest represented by these trees. It was clear that some of these minor species could not be found anymore. From 23 species, it came down to… for these 143, designated by the early settlers Association, there were seven total species represented, and four of those were oak species. Doug Still 46:05 Wow, that's quite a reduction. Roy Larick 46:06 That's a reduction. Yep. Doug Still 46:09 How many of the original 153 trees were remaining, after you completed your survey? Roy Larick 46:15 I want to say 40. Doug Still 46:19 Wow, approximately a quarter we're left. Roy Larick 46:21 The latest figures are 77 trees, Moses Cleveland trees, out of the 296. There are 77 that still stand. Doug Still 46:31 What do you think these findings tell us about how the urban forest is changing? Roy Larick 46:37 I'm going to recast that a bit, and say, how we are changing the urban forest, how humans are changing. And what we can learn from these. And I think the most important thing that comes from the Moses Cleveland trees, whether they're standing or not, is that the oaks dominated. You know, the oaks are the long lived nice looking trees. Oaks grow, to some extent, everywhere. But there are areas that prefer one species or another, or to put it the other way around, there are places where a certain species of oaks can adapt well, and others where those same species don't. If you step back and look at the associations, the normal associations of those oaks, with other forest members… with other tree species… when you get to areas that have a good representation of Moses Cleveland oaks, you can reconstruct, beyond the oaks themselves, what tree species were there. Those patterns then become a guide for how we can reforest along more natural lines. Let's start the process by understanding what grew there prehistorically, and what of those prehistoric species still make sense to put there currently, as anchors for an urban forest? Doug Still 48:13 Why do you think so many of the trees were lost? Let's just development it: Cleveland expands since World War II? Roy Larick 48:23 That's right, especially since World War II. But what has done in the bulk of the Moses Cleveland trees is road widening, underground utilities and overhead utilities. That improvement – infrastructure improvement – certainly carried on through the 1990s. And only now, I think, are we starting to second guess that and to try to understand means for people moving around without the tyranny of the car. Doug Still 48:53 Do you think this project, though, will help raise the profile of old trees in Cleveland and the surrounding area? Roy Larick 49:00 I believe the best way that we're going to do this is to take on for a third time, a third chapter, the designation of new heritage trees or legacy trees. And we're not sure what we're going to call these, whether it will be Moses Cleveland trees, I'm not sure, because the trees we designate, not all of them are going to be those that are 250 years old, but they will be distinctive trees. Those trees that are of species that we want to promote, those trees that are just those that people care about. Doug Still 49:39 Sort of a broader heritage tree program. Roy Larick 49:42 That's right. Doug Still 49:43 After working on the project, I asked all three guests what they thought the Moses Cleveland trees mean to Cleveland and the surrounding area. Michael Melampy 49:52 It's interesting. They represent to me anyway, a link back to the… back to the founding… founding, if you want to say that…back to the pre settlement conditions of this area. Margeaux Apple 50:07 It was really fun to see kind of the community, and I guess a subset of the community, you know, celebrating these trees and congregating around…our natural heritage in Cleveland. And that was really cool. And we had…a celebration on, you know, the 225th anniversary at Forest City Brewery. And it was just like a beautiful event where we were just there to kind of celebrate our natural heritage in Cleveland. Doug Still 50:38 That’s perfect that it was at the Forest City Brewery. Margeaux Apple 50:41 I know, right? But yeah, so there was that, which was just like, very fun. And like the tree tours were a great opportunity to just meet people from the community who are interested in the same things as you and to discuss, you know, tree stories, because every time, you know, you talk about these trees, people bring up their big tree in their backyard or things like that. It just made me so badly wish for a time machine to see what the area looked like, you know, in the 1700s, in the 1600s, whatever. You see these huge trees that were probably just little saplings at that time, and like, it's just a world away, isn't it? And to like, really celebrate the fact that we still have these little beacons into the past. Roy Larick 51:33 They mean, environmental stability. They mean that in the sense of desire, more than statement of fact. [music] You see an old tree, a beautiful old tree, and you think it's been there forever. And it's still there. And if it's healthy, it looks like it could be there forever more. So the Moses Cleveland trees represent, once again, a kind of stability, where it's lacking. Doug Still 52:04 Great answer. Anything else you want to add? Roy Larick 52:07 Once again, trees represent elderflora. They are timeless. You look at them and you enter into tree time, so to speak. Doug Still 52:18 Tree time. I love it. Roy Larick 52:20 Tree time, right. Doug Still 52:23 The Moses Cleveland trees were ecological bellwethers for a shrinking tree canopy. At the same time, their remaining numbers have a symbolic legacy, and point the way to a larger, healthier urban forest in the future. Clevelanders are already demonstrating the hard work and awareness to make that happen. I'd like to thank each one of my wonderful guests Roy Larick, Margeaux Apple and Michael Melampy for sharing their knowledge and experiences. I raise an inventory clipboard in your honor, and to all of the people that organized and contributed to the Moses Cleveland Tree Project. Thank you tree lovers for joining me again today. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram for photos and updates and general tree stuff. The show's theme song is written by arborist Dee Lee. I'm Doug still, and I'll see you next time on This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music]
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This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Imperial Pine Bonsai (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 15 Published April 27, 2023 [Music] Doug Still: [00:08] When you make your way through the exhibition space at the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum within the U.S. National Arboretum, you encounter one spectacular bonsai tree after the next. Each one is different and beautiful. Their harmonious shapes suggest a windswept landscape or an ancient story just out of reach. Its most famous resident, the Yamaki Pine, is almost 400 years old and survived the 1945 bombing of Hiroshima. [music] I was given a tour by Andy Bello, a Museum Specialist and new friend, who took time out of his busy schedule to show me the highlights, and there were a lot of them. So, it's saying something that the last bonsai on the circuit piqued my interest the most. It's a large, powerful Japanese red pine that's been in training since 1795. It was donated by the Japanese Imperial family and, according to Andy, is the only bonsai to ever leave the emperor's personal collection. I had to know more about how it got here. To find out, I spoke to Kathleen Emerson-Dell, the curator of exhibitions at the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum. The story features the vision and persistence of a past arboretum director, Dr. John Creech, who worked behind the scenes during a key moment in American and Japanese diplomacy. I also spoke to curator, Michael James, about the challenges of preserving this historic bonsai tree, the imperial pine. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] The regal 228-year-old imperial pine resides in its own fenced-in display area, silhouetted in front of a white wall. It sits in a weathered ceramic container as old as the tree itself, elevated by a large black stone floating in a sea of grass and ferns. It is asymmetrical but balanced, strong but energized. Its coarse bark gives way to clouds of refined needles. It is everything you imagine a bonsai should be, classically formed in every sense. There's no one better to tell the story of the imperial pine coming to America than Kathleen Emerson-Dell, who goes by her nickname Ked. She is the curator of exhibitions at the museum, as well as the manager of the archives and digital image database for the U.S. National Arboretum - a horticulturist, art historian, and archivist, all wrapped into one. In actuality, the bonsai story includes the initial formation of the entire collection. We dove right in. So, Ked, thanks for joining me today on This Old Tree. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [03:23] Well, I'm glad to be here. Doug Still: [03:25] I was hoping you could tell me about just the origins of the collection, and how did that occur, and when did that happen. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [03:32] Right. It's a wonderful story that goes back to a fabulous director of the National Arboretum, Dr. John Creech, who had just been named director of the U.S. National Arboretum in 1973. The call went out to all of the agencies, all of the executive branch agencies for ideas to celebrate the American Bicentennial that was coming up in 1976. So, Dr. Creech, having been a plant explorer in Japan for some time during his career, was remembering many trips to Japan where he had seen bonsai. It was just something in passing. It wasn't his main-- he was mostly out in the wilds of Japan looking for azaleas and crepe myrtle and collecting seed. Doug Still: [04:33] He was up in the mountains? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [04:34] He was in the mountains a lot. But when he came back into the towns, his interpreter that he was with, who was also a botanist, sort of introduced him to bonsai. Over the years, he had gotten to know some of the people in the bonsai world, and he thought, "Boy, wouldn't this make a fabulous gift if the Japanese could donate a few bonsai to the U.S. National Arboretum so that we could promote an understanding of beauty and botany at the same time?" Because that's what it's all about. Doug Still: [05:16] And at that time, were bonsai as popular as they are now in the United States? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [05:22] Not so much. There were a few bonsai clubs, and there were some associations. It was generally viewed as a hobby. A lot of retired people would be interested in it. When people came back from the war after World War II, they had been exposed to bonsai, the military, and the people who were stationed in Japan to help with the rebuilding. And so, they brought home knowledge of this, and some of them pursued it, but there were very few teachers. Yuji Yoshimura came to the States in the 60s, I think, and he came to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden and began teaching classes there, as well as taking care of a small collection they had and helping to build it. Doug Still: [06:12] In fact, Dr. Creech also invited Mr. Yoshimura to the National Arboretum during his first year to help acquire a bonsai from a local nursery in Maryland, a boxwood. They held a bonsai pruning workshop together, which was well attended, demonstrating a burgeoning public interest in the arboretum developing its own collection. They could do this without losing sight of the primary mission within the USDA to conduct research and promote better practices in agriculture and the nursery industry. So, Dr. Creech was looking to raise the profile of bonsai? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [06:47] He was, he was absolutely doing that. He thought this would be a fabulous position for the U.S. National Arboretum to be promoting this. Doug Still: [06:57] So, he had this idea when he was in Japan then? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [07:01] In 1973, he had the idea that maybe the Japanese-- he put the question to some Japanese friends he had and said, "Do you think that Japan would be interested in a small gift, a donation of some bonsai trees so that we could just feature them?" So, it sort of started from this small idea, a few small bonsai. So, in 1973, he had this idea. He sent it up-- He also had the idea to maybe do, like, a national herb garden. He had a whole list of ideas. And he sent it up to the Secretary of Agriculture. And basically, they said, "Nah, we're not interested." He heard nothing about it. So, he still pursued it though. He thought, "You know, "I think there's a way to do this. Even though it's not sort of official, maybe it can be more from the Japanese side rather than that it's offered, and we'll see what happens, that we won't reject it, that the department won't reject it." So, he started working a little bit more from the Japanese side to see if they would sort of take up this idea and see what they could come up with. And so, it gradually developed over about a year, the back and forth. They wanted to know how would the trees get to America. At the time, Dr. Creech thought that they were working on an idea that may be an empty US Cargo planes could fly them back to the States because oftentimes the cargo planes are delivering things to the embassy and to Japan. Doug Still: [08:50] And they come back empty. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [08:51] And they're coming back empty. So, he thought this was a great idea. Well, ultimately, at almost the last minute, it was rejected at a very high level, at the Pentagon. They said, "No, we can't do this," even though Dr. Creech pointed out that, "Well, you know the early naval ships used to do this all the time, that they would bring back botanical specimens from all over the world." But they weren't buying it. They said, "No, no, it'll look bad." It is what it is. Doug Still: [09:23] Just how it looks? They didn’t--? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [09:25] I think that was it, that they felt that regulations had changed and that this was not official US Business or something. But it kind of adds to the drama of the story, this whole pressure. You could feel it. You can feel it in Dr. Creech's letters that he's writing and in his reminiscences. He published a small book afterward, long after he had retired, a little booklet called The Bonsai Saga. And he's very dramatic about everything. [laughter] Doug Still: [09:59] Well, it sounds like he went through a lot. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [10:01] He did go through a lot, but it meant a lot to him, you could tell. So, over the course of this year of planning and how it grew. He had assured the Japanese that we would find a way to get the trees here, and so the Japanese on their part-- and when I say the Japanese, at this point, he's dealing with the Nippon Bonsai Association, which is the Japan Bonsai Association. They are an organization of all of the Bonsai growers and nurseries and sellers. Doug Still: [10:40] Where are they based? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [10:41] And they're based in Tokyo. And he's reassuring-- So, in 1974 is when the Nippon Bonsai Association felt that this was going to be taken seriously. The idea of the gift and that they would start to try to find funding on their side. So, they went to their government, the Japanese Diet, and started talking to people about this. They wanted to get funding from the government because this was going to be a diplomatic gift. Unfortunately, the funding for that year had already been decided, so it was going to have to be put off what the government was going to give them for a little bit. And so, they went to the Japan Foundation. They got funding from the Japan Foundation and from some other sources, I understand. So, it was becoming more of a reality because they needed to have money in order to put it together because it was going to be quite costly to sort of gather-- So, for transportation, gathering all these trees together, repotting them, building crates for them, getting them to the airport. Doug Still: [11:54] Yeah, it was much more of a serious endeavor than-- [crosstalk] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [11:58] It was. Doug Still: [11:58] --Dr. Creech thought at first, wasn't it? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [12:00] Absolutely, absolutely. He was surprised. Doug Still: [12:03] They have to be protected. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [12:05] And as they grew bigger, they needed a bigger plane. They needed more space. Originally, when no-- it's interesting. In 1974, Dr. Creech got to stop off and actually meet with them in person because Dr. Creech was in the first delegation to go to the People's Republic of China. It was a delegation of biological scientists. So, he was able to-- this was after China opened to the rest of the world after Nixon went there, and he was able to do a stopover in Japan. And they were able to ask a lot of questions face-to-face with a translator. They had concerns about bare rooting, which they did not want to do. Doug Still: [12:51] The United States had instituted strict quarantine rules around the importation of plants since 1910 when the first batch of cherry trees gifted and planted at the Tidal Basin were infested and eventually burned. Much of the subsequent concern centered around insects or diseases within the soil, arriving with new plants. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [13:13] But it was devastating for bonsai because to bare root a bonsai is to put an incredible amount of stress on it. And also, they had to be sanitized with all sorts of chemicals. In 1960, someone had bought a very important bonsai in Japan to bring back to the United States and donate to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden to their collection. It was a very famous tree. It had a name and it was called Fudo, and it did not survive. Doug Still: [13:51] Yeah. When you're dealing with something possibly a couple of hundred years old, you need to let it be and not disturb it as much as possible and it's already a traumatic experience to ship it around the world. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [14:07] So, that was something that worried people. People did not want to donate trees to a project where it might possibly die. Dr. Creech was able to work with the person who was the head of quarantine services, and they worked out a deal that the trees did not have to be bare rooted. They needed to be inspected in Japan before they came over. They had to remain in quarantine in the United States at one of the quarantine stations for over a year. Doug Still: [14:42] So, if they're looking forward to the Bicentennial, he's getting this done just in time? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [14:48] Y es, absolutely. It's amazing that he just kept pushing. He kept going forward. I think he did not realize how much was involved, or he wouldn't have even started. [laughter] Doug Still: [15:01] Dr. Creech worked out all the agreements between the US Government and the Nippon Bonsai Association, the repotting, crating, shipping, quarantine, and future cultural practices which allowed the funding to fall into place. But then, they had to find and select the bonsai trees with the Bicentennial deadline looming. When we come back from a quick break, Ked tells us about how the trees were chosen and the surprise involvement of the Japanese Imperial Family. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to this old tree. [music] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [15:55] If they had to select and collect from everywhere they went all over Japan. They talked to everyone. Doug Still: [16:03] How many did they find? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:04] So, what they wanted to do was they wanted to get 50 trees to represent the 50 states of the United States of America. Doug Still: [16:12] Perfect. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:15] T hey weren't matching a tree to a state. It was just the symbolic number of 50. That had a lot of importance. So, they were looking for 50 trees to pull together, and they wanted a range of species. They wanted from north to south. They wanted from all over Japan. They wanted to represent the variety of trees that are used in bonsai in Japan because not every tree is good at becoming a bonsai. [laughs] Doug Still: [16:43] So, the Nippon Bonsai Association put the word out, and they were mainly collecting from private collections? Looking for donations? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [16:51] Yes, they were looking for donations, but then they needed some money because they needed to pay some businesses. When you have a bonsai nursery, you are in the business, you care for bonsai, and you also create and sell bonsai. In order to compensate some of these businesses, they wanted to raise money to do that. So, if they picked out a tree, they would be able to give some compensation. Doug Still: [17:20] So, there were some from businesses as well? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [17:22] There were some. But the business, I mean, these were some of the best bonsai growers in the country as well. Some people donated their trees. Some people got some compensation. Then, on the other hand, in order to get funding from the government, they wanted to include a number of high-ranking politicians as the donors of the trees so that the name of the donor would be the name of this important person. Now, we never got a breakdown on exactly what category each tree fell into, which ones were outright donations from the person who owned it versus-- because some people were owners. It's very interesting. In Japan, the bonsai world is a little bit like the horse racing world in this country. You can have an owner of a famous horse, who has nothing to do with the training of that horse. Doug Still: [18:30] I see. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:30] Pays for the training. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:31] So, a lot of the famous bonsai owned by wealthy businessmen in Japan are actually stabled at bonsai nurseries and are cared for by very important bonsai masters. And then, these trees are entered into competitions for awards. [laughs] Doug Still: [18:50] Interesting. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:51] So, it's very different from the bonsai world in America. Doug Still: [18:55] And that's still happening? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [18:56] Yes, it is still happening. It's the model of how things are done there. But a lot of these owners appreciate good bonsai, but they don't actually work on their own bonsai. Doug Still: [19:10] I imagine there was a well-kept provenance for each bonsai that came over. Can you trace the owners for each one? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [19:18] Right, as I just said, we don't know specifically beyond the names that were given to us that were attached to each bonsai. We cannot be absolutely sure which ones came from whom unless it is a bonsai name that we know. So, other than that, we got a list of the trees, where they were from, what province they had come from, and the age in training, because that's how bonsai are measured. Some bonsai come from the wild. They're collected in the wild. They might be a scraggly old tree growing on the top of a mountain that could be a couple of hundred years old. And so, one tradition is to go out and collect interesting specimens that have already been "deformed" by nature. They have been stressed, they are survivors. And oftentimes, these old craggy trees show the results of their survival. It's like the bristlecone pines in the west, where you have a lot of dead wood and then you have this live trunk. Doug Still: [20:36] That's interesting. So, they're already old. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [20:39] They're already old, but we don't know how old they are. In bonsai, we count the years as years in training. So, that's what we count. So, you could have a tree that you start as a seedling. That is actually going to reflect the true age of that tree, its years in training. So, we got a little bit of that information, just a little bit but not much, because I think at the time, they didn't realize how important that information would be. In Japan, it was just known. In the long history of these trees, they move around a bit. It might have been created by one bonsai master, and then it goes to another one and another one. I mean, they sort of move around. Doug Still: [21:28] So, there were these 50 trees that they found, but then there were three more added? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [21:34] Right. Doug Still: [21:35] Could you talk about those three? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [21:36] This is where the story gets interesting. Dr. Creech arrives in Japan in 1975. In March, he is there to sort of oversee the final processes. We knew at that point, 50 trees were coming. He did not know the sizes of the trees. When I looked back through the old records, there had been several lists that had been sent to Dr. Creech for approval. They did not include sizes. They were only species. So evidently, when Dr. Creech arrived in, like, halfway through March-- by the end of March, he has to leave with the trees. So, halfway through March, they drive him from the airport to the Nippon Bonsai headquarters where they've gathered the trees. And he said, "I was so jet lagged, but I got out of the car and my eyes were just-- I couldn't believe what I was seeing. These were significant trees. These were not small trees." Doug Still: [22:43] He was probably like, "Oh, boy," as well. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [22:47] No, what he was really thinking was, "How much was it?" $2,300 had been allocated for space in a Pan Am cargo plane to bring home these 50 small trees. And he immediately thought $2,300 is not going to do it. So, he's on the phone with Pan Am this whole time and he says, "I think they're bigger. I think you need to come look at this." [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [23:16] So, the Pan Am representative comes and looks and goes, "Okay," and so then it goes up to $9000. Dr. Creech is telegraphing back to the States and going, "Look, this is going on." And then, it went up again. And then when they actually started building the crates that went around them, then Dr. Creech said, "It doesn't matter what they say, they got to come." Doug Still: [23:44] Ship first, bill later. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [23:47] So, fortunately, Pan Am only charged for the cost of the flight. So, they were not even charging what they would charge retailer or someone to move goods. Doug Still: [24:00] Nice. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [24:01] It ended up being $19,000. When Dr. Creech arrived back in the country, he said, "I didn't know if I even had a job, if I was going to be fired because of this," because he said, "I had to go ahead with it." And fortunately, he didn't lose his job. It had become a big PR thing. This excitement generated about it, so they couldn't fire him. [laughs] I don't know if he was exaggerating that or not. But when he arrived, he found out that the imperial collections, there were three imperial bonsai collections. So, there was the emperor's collection, which was held at the imperial palace in Tokyo, and then there were collections in his two brothers' families, there were collections. So, one was the Chichibu Family and the other was the Takamatsu Family. Sometime in the fall of 1974, the imperial family was planning for the emperor to make his first and only trip to the United States. Doug Still: [25:16] What they were planning was a big deal, a watershed moment in the history of US and Japanese relations. This would not only be the first visit by Emperor Hirohito three decades after the devastation of World War II, it would be the first visit to America by a Japanese emperor, ever. It would be a moment of healing. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [25:37] Because of the confluence of his trip to America, which was planned for October of 1975, in the run-up to that is when the Imperial family thought it would be a good idea to include gifts from the emperor to the United States through this vehicle, that he could just piggyback onto this. Because whenever there are state visits, there's always gifts exchanged, significant gifts. And so, this was thought to be something really special that the emperor could do. So, there was one tree chosen from each of the Imperial collections, and the tree from the emperor's collection was the Japanese red pine, Pinus densiflora. It was in training since 1795-- Doug Still: [26:34] Incredible. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [26:34] --is the information that we got. So, it's over 200 years now. It's like 228 years old now or in training for 228 years. Of course, it was probably older than that, but we don't know. So, Dr. Creech didn't really know about this until-- I don't have any records that he knew about it before he arrived in Japan. The trees from the Imperial collections were not included in the exhibit that was held. There was a big dedication ceremony that was held at the Otani Hotel. Thousands of people were invited from the Western diplomatic community that was in Japan at the time, plus the whole Nippon Bonsai Association, everyone who had donated a tree, everyone whose name was associated with this, people from the Japanese government, the conservatives and liberals. According to Dr. Creech, he said it's the first time the conservatives and the liberals were in one room for a big event where they weren't arguing with each other. [laughs] Doug Still: [27:42] Right. Well, trees bring people together. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [27:45] So, exactly. So, it was a big deal. The Empress trees were not included in that ceremony. They arrived. We have some film of them arriving at the Nippon Bonsai Association right during the time that Dr. Creech was there for them to get repotted back into their same pots and crated along with the other 50 trees. Doug Still: [28:13] So, he found out when he got to Japan? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:17] That's what the records tell us, that he did not know of this. Now, I don't know if he had heard something, but nothing was made official until he was there. I think they were trying to keep it on the down low. Doug Still: [28:30] What a score. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:32] Yeah, it would be interesting. I don't think the Japanese people knew until it happened. Doug Still: [28:38] I wonder if there's security reasons. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [28:40] Well, that may be, that some people may have been very upset to hear that this was happening. It was still a time-- I went to Japan in the 1980s, and there were still diehard nationalists who were pro emperor, still considered the emperor a god, that they were a thorn in the side of democracy and could possibly make trouble. Doug Still: [29:12] Right, and just to offer up something of such cultural value-- Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:16] Exactly. Doug Still: [29:18] --for some people it might have been difficult. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:20] So, that may have been one of the reasons why it was kept kind of quiet. Doug Still: [29:25] Now, did the emperor have a hand in choosing this bonsai? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [29:29] We have no idea. We have absolutely no idea. It's very interesting. The emperor, his interest in life was marine biology. It's often said if he were not emperor, he would have been a marine biologist. [laughs] So, that was his very serious-- he devoted time every day almost to sort of keep up with the field, to read papers. He had his own laboratory at the palace. He loved nature. He walked every day on the palace grounds. Loved the forested area of the palace grounds. So, we don't know the extent of his interest in bonsai. Bonsai were used ceremonially in the palace. There are hundreds of trees in the collection. A lot of them are larger trees because of their sort of state importance, that they need to hold a position-- Doug Still: [30:38] In a large hall, maybe? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [30:40] In a large hall, on either side of an entrance, along pathways they're leading to the palace. Doug Still: [30:49] So, the size of this bonsai is not unusual in the imperial collection? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [30:55] Right. There are more of this size in the Imperial collection than in any other collection in Japan. They also have a lot of more regular size two-footers, three-footers, they have the whole range. But they have a lot of these sort of that had been in the imperial collection for possibly hundreds of years because they were used ceremonially, and everything is pomp and circumstance when it comes to the emperor. The might of the empire is shown through these impressive trees. And what's interesting is this red pine, not only is it large, it is in a style that is called an informal upright, which means the trunk has S curves in it. A big, gentle curve and then another curve at the top, which is a very relaxed kind of informal rather than a formal upright would be totally rigid, straight up and down, which is how these would grow in nature if there were no prevailing winds constantly or if it wasn't being buffeted or beaten down with snow. It had been trained into this shape and what's interesting, because I'm an art historian of Japanese art, this type of tree is used on the stage of Noh performances. A painting of this tree, a large red pine with a curving trunk behind it and a big, massive trunk. And this was sort of standard for a Noh performance which is performed outside, usually on temple grounds. Doug Still: [32:50] So, they might have had that in mind? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [32:52] They might have had that in mind. But also, when you look at pictures from the Daimyo era, the feudal era in Japan, when shoguns were in control of the country. They often in their reception halls, big halls with tatami mat, and a little raised area at the front where the Daimyo would sit with his top retainers on either side. Behind him, usually painted on sliding screens, would be a giant tree just like this, a giant curved trunk. It was supposed to communicate the power of this shogun. Doug Still: [33:39] So, I can only imagine in the spring of '75, when they are selecting these three trees from the three imperial collections, that they ask the bonsai masters to choose one. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [33:54] Hmm. Doug Still: [33:55] I can see that going down, and I can imagine how that must have felt to them after spending their career caring for a tree. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [34:05] Yeah, they were either greatly honored that this tree was going to go to America and would represent perhaps the emperor in America, that were honoring them. That would be the best possible way they thought of it. Or perhaps they were a little worried, like what do these Americans know about taking care of these bonsai? And that was a worry of a lot of the Japanese, the Bonsai people, that they had said they agreed that they would come over and check on the trees to make sure everything was going well, that they would sort of help the curator in America. We got other Japanese-- John Naka came to help out. Yuji Yoshimura. It was with those assurances that people felt better, that there were going to be people there who really understood while the curator was learning. And just he threw himself into it, Bob Drechsler, who had known nothing about bonsai up to that point. He had been working with one of the tree breeders at the Arboretum, and he expressed an interest when Dr. Creech said, "We're going to have to find a curator to be in charge of this whole collection." So, he absolutely loved that and stayed with the collection for, golly, a long time. I think he was in the late 90s, he retired, so he was with the collection for quite a number of years. Doug Still: [35:46] Affectionately known as “Bonsai Bob,” Bob Drechsler was the first curator of the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. But I had a chance to chat with the current curator, Michael James, about the legacy of caring for the Imperial Pine and the 52 other historic Bonsai donated by Japan. And then, we'll hear more from Ked about their reception in Washington. Coming up after the break. [music] Doug Still: [36:31] I spoke to Ked a lot about the history of the imperial pine, but I was wondering, I wanted to ask you, in caring for it, what are its special needs? Michael James: [36:40] Well, the red pine in general, it needs water, but relatively speaking, it can be on the drier side. Doug Still: [36:50] This is Michael James, who's been a curator at the museum since 2018 and who started as a volunteer back in 2001 in order to study the art of bonsai. Michael James: [37:01] But our imperial pine is four and a half feet tall, so it's a big bonsai. Still a small tree, but it's a big bonsai in a container that is only about 2ft deep. So, there's not a lot of soil in that container for all the foliage that it has. Doug Still: [37:21] Right. So, water management, very important? Michael James: [37:24] It's the most important thing that you can do for any bonsai, after you find that place, that setting, or that microclimate where the tree is receiving enough sun and shelter from wind and things like that. Yeah, bonsai is just so connected to the environment that the trees are growing. Doug Still: [37:49] I asked him how he balances the horticultural versus the artistic aspects of caring for a bonsai. Michael James: [37:56] When it comes to bonsai or general landscaping and gardening, the horticulture has to come first. It's more important to have a healthy tree than to have a dead tree that looks really cool. So, really, just health alone makes the plants beautiful. But then with bonsai, they're more than just healthy. It's the negative space between the branching. It's where the branching is, it's how dense the foliage is, and where it's dense and where it's light. And all those things are just right. So, after the tree is healthy, those artistic principles can be then applied. And those artistic principles are also often related to the growth habit, the natural growth habit of that tree. Bonsai is really mimicking the way trees look in their natural landscape. Doug Still: [38:55] Right. So, you sort of adjust to how the tree is growing and work from there. Michael James: [39:01] Yeah, it's like a collaboration. There's a collaboration between plants and humans, as well as multi generations of humans because if you do it right, bonsai trees outlive the average human, any human that I know. The imperial pine, for instance, is 228 years old now. So, I've just been caring for it a fraction of that time. Doug Still: [39:29] Right. You pass it from one generation to the next. What sort of historical guidance do you have for caring for it? Do you use photos? Is there anything written or any research you've done? Michael James: [39:40] Yeah, absolutely. Here at the museum, we are trying to maintain many of these trees historically. This Japanese red pine is a classical bonsai. It has this form that is an S curve. It's about two and a half full curves. And then, the foliage has a lot of negative space in between. So, the branches, they're kind of alternating in and out. So, we have branches at the bottom that are really being shaded a lot from the branches above. And pines being apically dominant, they're putting a lot of their energy to their canopy because that's the area that's getting the most sun, and they love sun. That area has to be pruned really carefully so that enough sun does pass through the canopy that the bottom branches don't weaken and die. Doug Still: [40:42] Has its shape or look changed much over time? Michael James: [40:46] Inevitably, the trees change in shape, but in general, the style is trying to be maintained. And this is a classical bonsai, where many of the branches are coming from the outside of curves. And this tree actually has a sister tree in the imperial garden. It's still there and cared for by the Japanese imperial household. And their way, from what I've researched, is a very natural way of pruning, where really trying to add very little human intervention. You're trying to let the plant do its own thing. The branches are not necessarily growing young and youthfully, upward and straight. We're trying to make those branches have an aged look to them and meandering and tapering and all the things that make a small tree look old. But we're not adding too much wire, which is something that we will do to a lot of Japanese bonsai in the imperial household, their way of pruning is just very--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [42:00] Directional pruning? Michael James: [42:02] Directional, and it's a very old style. And the more modern way is adding a lot of wire and carving and doing a lot of different things to manipulate the tree. So, we're not doing all of that on this tree because historically, that's not how its sister is being cared for in the imperial household. Doug Still: [42:23] Interesting. So, you've got your eye on its partner as well, and how it's being trained. And so, there's some artistic communication between the two, so to speak. Michael James: [42:36] Yeah. Doug Still: Is it meant to be seen in the round or is it meant to be viewed from one side or three sides? Michael James: [42:44] Large trees like this are often flanking entrances in gardens. Now, the way it's displayed here at the museum is with a garden backdrop, a Japanese garden growing behind it. So, the viewer doesn't have the option of walking the full way around it, although it does look good from all sides. And it's in a round container, which often lends themselves to being viewed from all sides. But in our case, we just turn it twice a week, so that it receives balanced sunlight on all sides and it doesn't get too strong on one side rather than the other. But it is designed to have a front. On the weekends, the front is showing out for the viewers and the guests here at the Bonsai & Penjing Museum. That is what we feel is the most ideal side to view it. And that's because you can have a good view of the beautiful, graceful curve of the trunk line and the taper of it and the negative space in between the branches is just right. Doug Still: [43:57] Ked mentioned that sometimes there's a resting period for some trees, for health reasons or for other reasons. Could you talk about that? And then, how much of a resting period does the imperial pine receive? Michael James: [44:11] Well, the resting period is kind of almost more for the caretaker because it's a time where you stop working on the tree. Sometimes in a museum setting, you want to prune everything to perfection all the time because they're being viewed by so many people. You have to sometimes just say the best thing to do is nothing at all. And the rest time for a plant is a time of growing and strong growth. Doug Still: [44:42] It's not really rest. It's rest from cultural practices. Michael James: [44:48] Right. Yeah, cutting and tipping and pinching and all those things that are done to a bonsai to keep it in that shape. Doug Still: [44:55] Could you talk about soil replacement and just what the process is? Michael James: [45:00] This tree, being over 200 years old, has probably been repotted 40 times at least over those 200 some years. So, it has to be done. This tree stays outside year-round, and the sun breaks down the surface of the soil, watering breaks down the surface of the soil, and freezing and thawing breaks it down, too. So, we try to have very coarse, airy soil that water can just fall right down through, and the water comes right out the drainage hole in the bottom. But over time, that soil breaks down and it has to be replaced. And sometimes, just looking at the tree's leaves, they give clues and communicate whether the roots are healthy or not. There was a time when this tree was yellowing, and we really didn't know why for sure. And, well, oftentimes when everything else is being done right, it's the roots. So, we repotted, and everything looked good on the outside where the soil had been removed most frequently over past repotting's. But there was a time when we got to a point underneath the trunk, this particular repotting day, and we knew were an area that had never, or at least not for a very long time, been removed. But it was getting very close to under the trunk of the trees. That's a dangerous spot to remove for the health of it. And we took out the soil and we found an area that had been totally compacted and broken down. It was clay. That was just anaerobic. There were no roots in it. Doug Still: [46:57] Was that some of the original soil or, I don't know, pre-76 soil? Michael James: [47:02] I think it was because as were removing it, we even found shards of ceramics, old ceramics. They could have been the remnants of one of the earlier containers for this tree. Doug Still: [47:18] Wow, and when it wasn't as much smaller? Michael James: [47:20] Yes. Now, it's in an antique Chinese container that's very old, as old as the tree. Doug Still: [47:28] You've got an archaeological project, right in your bonsai collection. Michael James: [47:34] Yeah. Well, repotting is a little bit like archaeology. Doug Still: [47:38] Do you sometimes feel the weight of historical importance in your work? I mean, you have the eyes of two countries on these bonsai, in a way. Michael James: [47:47] Yeah. Well, I get two comments frequently, especially when I'm working in front of a very old tree, like the imperial pine. One is, "This must be the best job in the world." [laughter] Michael James: [48:01] And then the other is, "Wow, this must be really stressful taking care of trees that are this old." Doug Still: [48:09] Yeah, my mind went there. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [48:11] Yeah. Doug Still: [48:12] Well, thanks so much for joining me today. I learned a lot, and I love the pine. I love all of the bonsai at the museum. You are doing great work. Michael James: [48:22] Yeah, thanks. I hope anyone listening can come out and visit in person. There's no way to describe these trees. They're jaw-dropping to so many visitors. Doug Still: [48:34] Now back to Ked's story. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [48:38] Oh, the most important story. So, they got on the plane, Dr. Creech and his assistant, Chip March, who had been with him. They were in the back of the cargo plane and they just laid down amongst the bonsai and slept all the way to San Francisco where Pan Am could bring it that far. Pan Am could not do domestic flights, so they arranged for two United cargo planes. So, it was broken up into two cargo planes and they flew them across the country to Baltimore. Then, they went into quarantine in Glendale, Maryland, which is one of the quarantine stations close to the U.S. National Arboretum in Washington. And so, Bob Drechsler, the curator, moved up there to take care of them for that year, for more than a year. Doug Still: [49:30] Wow. He moved to take care of these trees for a year. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [49:33] Y es, he did. So, then the emperor is coming to America for his trip in October. Well, the trees are still in quarantine. The emperor put through a request, or his people did, that he would like to visit his tree in America in quarantine. Well, the emperor was traveling with about 50 courtiers in his pack in addition to his wife and hers and 450 Japanese journalists and TV people. Doug Still: [50:04] Wow. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [50:05] TV operators. And they were following his every move. Absolutely every move. So, it was decided by the State Department that the facility was too small to allow this entourage in to visit. So, it was decided they would give permission-- The Agriculture Department gave permission the tree could be brought to the White House for a reception. Doug Still: [50:31] I think for this, they could make an allowance. [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [50:34] Yes. So, the tree was moved. Four men had to carry the tree in a sling because the pot is really deep. The pot is about a foot and a half deep and about a foot and maybe no, it's 2ft wide, maybe 2ft deep. The tree is huge. It was heavy. The way these are moved in Japan is you have a sling that cradles it and then you have two bamboo poles that go through the sling. You have four men. Each man takes one end of one pole. When they got to the White House, they found out that they had to take it upstairs to the second floor because the reception for the emperor before the big state dinner was going to be held in the Yellow Oval Room, which was part of Ford's private area in the White House. Doug Still: [51:31] I see. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [51:31] So, Bob Drechsler and his three companions are carrying this bonsai up marble steps to the second floor. He said all he could think about was if he slipped and this tree went tumbling down these steps and the emperor is here, and that's all he was thinking about, was just putting his feet right. Doug Still: [51:54] Right. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [51:55] So, they got it there, and we actually have a picture of the Emperor and his wife, the Empress, and Mr. & Mrs. Ford gazing at the tree. The White House photographer is taking the pictures. Of course, he didn't take a picture of the tree. We just get like a little-- we get some needles in the side of the shot to show what they're looking at, and they're just very solemnly looking at it. In future trips to the White House with our trees, the photographers did much better in terms of arranging people on either side of the tree to take a picture of it. But this was the first trip to the White House of any of our trees in the collection. Many trees from the Japanese collection have gone to the White House since then for various receptions for the prime ministers mostly. So, it did go there and then it came back the next day. He said the Emperor was very pleased to see that it was very happy in its new environment, he thought. Doug Still: [52:55] Wonderful. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [52:56] And to underscore that, his sister-in-law, who took great interest in the collection that her husband had inherited, this was Princess Chichibu, she visited the United States and came to visit the collection and to see the tree what she considered her collection because she had more interest in the bonsai than her husband did. So, that was 1978, and while she was visiting, the museum had already opened. The pavilion had opened. There's no roof on the pavilion, so the trees get a lot of sun and rain, and they thrive. While she was visiting and the State Department was with her and taking her around and they were walking out to leave, and they passed the emperor's pine, and there was a bird's nest in it. A robin had built a nest in it that spring and the babies had hatched, and they were all-- how babies are with their hungry mouths. They were all peeping and had these hungry mouths, and she just-- Oh, my God. She got so excited. Doug Still: [54:06] She was moved. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:07] She was so moved. And so, then there was oohing and ahhing. She was there with the ambassador's wife, and I believe her son was with her. And they've just had to stop and talk about this and take pictures of it. And at that point, Dr. Creech says the State Department official just threw up his hands. It's like they were totally off-schedule. [laughter] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:31] But she said this was a sign that the collection was thriving in America and had been accepted, and they were happy, and nature was happy that they were there. Doug Still: [54:42] What a relief. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:44] It was a sign. So that has been the story of the Imperial Pine in America. Doug Still: [54:51] Amazing. Have you met any dignitaries next to the pine? Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [54:55] Oh, who is the latest? The last important trip was when Melania Trump brought the Prime Minister's wife on a visit several years ago. So, we're just pleased that were still in the hearts and minds of the people in the White House, that we're always available. Hillary Clinton asked for a tree that had been given to her husband during his presidency when she was Secretary of State. She asked if that tree could be brought to the reception she was holding for her counterpart from Japan. So, they continue to perform a very important function in the Washington DC area. We do not really let them travel much further than that because everyone comes to see them and they want to see the Imperial Pine or the pine that survived Hiroshima. So, they kind of switch positions within the pavilion. The entrance, the first thing you see when you enter the Japanese Pavilion used to be the Imperial Pine, and the Yamaki Pine was the last one that you would see. It had its own stage, as you will, nothing else was near it. So then with the prominence and the rise to fame of the Yamaki Pine, they switched positions. But I think that the Emperor's Pine is happy being in a sort of a more humble position in the back. It's a quieter place, and it seems perfectly content to be there and is thriving and really holds up. It's the curtain call. Doug Still: [56:44] Right. [laughs] Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [56:46] When you visit. You have the opening act, and then you have all these other wonderful trees from Japan, and then you have the Emperor's Tree in all of its majesty. Doug Still: [56:57] Well, Ked, thanks for telling the story of the imperial pine. You've been a delight, and I really appreciate your time. Kathleen Emerson-Dell: [57:04] Well, thank you. It's wonderful to be able to talk about this tree. You really feel like you are following in footsteps because taking care of bonsai is you are privileged to only be part of its life for a short time. And you think of all the people who have taken care of this tree in particular over the years, and you become part of that collective family. Doug Still: [57:34] That was so well said. And how special to have Ked and Michael on the show to welcome us into their world. Thank you both, and I hope everyone makes a point of visiting the U.S. National Arboretum the next time you're in DC. To see the Imperial Pine in all its peace-promoting symbolism, as well as the entire collection at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. And thank you, tree lovers, for listening once again, if you like the show and feel so moved, please leave a review on whatever podcast app you listen to, that would really help us out. Follow on Facebook or Instagram to see photos of the imperial pine and past featured trees. And the show website is www.thisoldtree.show. Thanks to Anne and Tony for being the very first Patreon subscribers. Your support is appreciated. See you next time. I'm Doug Still and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme music] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Tree Story Shorts II (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 13 Published March 26, 2023 [music] Doug Still: [00:05] Welcome again to This Old Tree. The show features heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm your host, Doug Still, and this time I've got another edition of Tree Story Shorts for you. This is when I take a step back and let listeners submit their own stories about trees that have special meaning to them. I love that you all keep submitting these, and I want to share them on the show. This time, I have nine fantastic and touching stories you are going to love. If I had to pick a thematic thread connecting them, I would say it is loss and memory, and each writer presents this a bit differently. However, these short stories are so rich. Let me know if you pick up on a different theme. I hope you enjoy these as much as I did. So, without further ado, here are Tree Story Shorts. [This Old Tree theme] Gil Reavill: [01:15] Hello, Doug. It's Gil Reavill. I grew up with a 40-foot apple tree in the backyard of our family home. This was in small town, Central Wisconsin. I wish I could tell you the specific species. I queried my sisters about it, but that precise fact seems lost in history. We went through all the possibilities. Was it a Blenheim Orange maybe? Duchess of Oldenburg? Maiden Blush? We don't know. I do know that the tree represented a central icon of my childhood. I sometimes dream about it to this day. My mother was a longtime kindergarten teacher and also a dedicated home cook, and every season we would gather the tree's very generous harvest. The green and reddish fruit were small and flavorful, but not particularly sweet. My mother called them cooking apples. She canned homemade applesauce, with the family enjoying the fruits of her labor for the entire year. For myself though, the tree served an entirely different purpose as a sort of convenient improvised jungle gem. The trunk probably measured 25 or 30 inches DBH. At the five-foot mark, a seam suggested evidence of an early graft, and apples from one side of the tree were subtly different from those on the other. This split in the trunk was at a perfect kid height, allowing easy access for climbing. Early on, I was able to scramble into every area of the tree, into both of the asymmetrical branch networks. At the top of one was a thick horizontal crook that served as a sort of hammock. I could lounge there, close to the sky, largely invisible from earthbound humans. As a kid, I was an inveterate reader, so there are pictures of me in my apple tree aerie engrossed in a book. I remember being called down to the dinner table but leaving books up there so I could get to them later. This spot was one of my favorite summer hangouts throughout my younger days, from grade school up until junior high. After that, seduced by the charms of the automobile, I put away childish things. Since I've now become a parent myself, I shudder retrospectively about my habitual tree climbing as a youngster. I never fell out, but I could have. I honor my brave mother and father for allowing my constant excursions. But I think this solitary backyard apple tree represented a refuge, providing vital and necessary aid to my early physical development, yeah, but also helping to foster my imagination. The view from up there provided perspective. My ground-level problems and preoccupations appeared puny. I could dream freely. Recreational climbing, not applesauce, was, for me, the tree's true harvest. [music] Doug Still: [04:25] That first story was from Gil Reavill. Gil is an author, screenwriter, and journalist who lives in the New York City area, coming to it by way of being born in Wisconsin and educated in Colorado. He is married to an arborist. You may remember Jean Zimmerman from the first Tree Story Short episode, and co-host of the Charter Oak. But Gil says he recently flunked a trivia quiz that asked whether Trees poet, Joyce Kilmer, was female or male. But anyway, I loved his story that looks back on the secret places of childhood reading and the joys of tree climbing. The next piece is by Jim Voorhies, a retired grounds manager and entomologist from upstate New York. No doubt about this one. It's about the loss of a tree, specifically a leaning pine on a college campus. It's also about the power of trees as symbols and how that sometimes manifested in unexpected ways. Jim Voorhies: [05:24] Greetings, fellow tree lovers. My story is from the Adirondack Mountains in the very northern part of New York State on the campus of Paul Smith's College. I am an alum of the college class of 1972. The story begins in the late 1850s when Paul Smith purchased approximately 50 acres along the shore of Lower St. Regis Lake. Paul was to build a hotel for hunters and fishermen, which he guided for, and their families. Eventually, it was known as a resort for the rich and famous. More and more lands were cleared and structures built. But at some point, the land surrounding a very majestic, very leaning white pine, Pinus strobus. Either it had to be spared or removed. Paul Smith decided to keep the tree and several other very mature white pines near his hotel ground. Moving along, in 1930, the hotel suffered a devastating fire that, along with the depression, the hotel was never built to its original glory. Paul and Lydia's son, Phelps Smith, inherited everything. Upon his death, his will dictated that all his wealth, including property, shall be used to start a college of arts and science, and would forever be called Paul Smith's College. The college opened in 1946. In 1947, the student council sponsored a contest for a college logo, a college symbol. A sketch of the Leaning Pine was submitted, and it won. It kind of stuck as the logo of the college. Soon the leaning pine image was copied on everything. College stationery in the yearbook, on hats, shirts, coats everywhere. You could not possibly come on campus without seeing it immediately. It was very close to the entrance of the college. As you entered the college, the tree leaned to the left. It was absolutely an icon, right from the beginning when the school opened. On November 12, 1971, a couple of disgruntled students chopped down the Leaning Pine very early in the morning. Several hours later, I was standing right next to that college symbol while it was laying on the ground, in disbelief. It was like, "Why would you do this?" At first, the culprits were a mystery, but a few months later, a student confessed. The whole story is every forestry student had to take this Introduction to Forestry course, and part of it was learning how to take care of your axe, how to sharpen it properly, some things on the handle of the axe and you were graded on it. Historically, the grades were not very high. So, some folks got their axes graded. They didn't like the grades, and they showed the school that their axe [laughs] was adequate and could chop down a tree. Today, the Leaning Pine, the original symbol of the college, is still the college symbol. A disc cut from the trunk before the log was sent to a sawmill was saved by the college. The disc has recently been refurbished and is displayed in the college library with wall plaques adjacent to it identifying a timeline of historic events, utilizing the growth rings to mark those years. It's referred to as dendrochronology. The disc from the Leaning Pine tells the story of its birth in 1690, and we know its last growth ring was 1971. So, this famous and historic leaning white pine was 281 years old. I do feel fortunate that I've seen it alive, if even for just over a year while I was a student at the college. And that concludes my tree story. [music] Doug Still: [09:49] Thanks to Jim for that bit of lore from Paul Smith's College at the time. That must have been shocking to all Smittys everywhere. But I love that the symbolism of the Leaning Pine lives on. Jim was inducted into the Paul Smith's Hall of Fame in 2022 for his support and commitment to the school, and he did extensive research about the Leaning Pine incident, featured in a video called “Smitty Story Hour, The Leaning Pine.” Go ahead and YouTube it if you're interested in hearing more. Next up is Georgia Silvera Seamans, an urban ecologist and founder of Local Nature Lab whose home base is in Washington Square Park in New York City. Local Nature Lab has a mission to monitor, educate, support, and advocate for biodiversity and local nature in urban areas. When she's not spending time in the park noticing nature, she's hosting the podcast, Your Bird Story, which centers the voices of everyday people's encounters and relationships with wild birds in cities. It's great. Please check out Your Bird Story. But this story is about some Kwanzan cherry trees near Washington Square that everyone loved. Georgia Silvera Seamans: [11:04] Hi, my name is Georgia, and this is my Tree Short, which is about a row of cherry trees in Greenwich Village, New York City. If you're not familiar with this species, Prunus serrulata, cultivar ‘Kwanzan.’ The flowers are cotton candy pink, and big - I'm talking like "Almost palm of your hand big,” - and many petals. You might see this cultivar listed as Kanzan, K-A-N-Z-A-N. But when I learned this species, the cultivar was Kwanzan. New Yorkers don't stroll. We definitely hurry along sidewalks and pretty much any other place that you see us. But the spring flowers and equally stunning fall color of Kwanzan cherries at this location caused people to slow down, to stop, to notice, to take photos. The trees were an unlisted landmark in the neighborhood. Everyone in the neighborhood knew about them, and visitors and tourists were wowed, just like we were. In 2016, the seven Kwanzans were removed as part of a mega construction project. The community loudly pushed for these trees to be transplanted. At the time, an arborist hired by the institution whose project called for the removal of these trees assessed that only three of the trees would survive or actually said "might" survive transplantation. The institution in charge of the building project said they couldn't find suitable locations, and so, with a permit from the city, removed all seven trees. Now reportedly, the trees were donated to a nonprofit that recycles and repurposes wood. It was only after hearing that the institution needed a city permit for removal that I realized that the trees had been growing on public property. I wish I had measured them so I could tell you about their ecosystem services, their regulating benefits. But to be honest, the significance of these cherries, which are sterile and didn't attract or don't attract insects, was cultural. People took joy in their seasonal changes. I can't believe I just said that, because my gripe with tulips from tulip bulbs is that they are poor in environmental benefits. But I guess you can now see my tree bias. Thanks so much for listening to this Tree Short. [music] Doug Still: [14:17] Georgia, it's always tough to see a tree removed that you have affection for, never mind a whole row of them in densely populated New York City, where they are so needed. Environmental benefits or no, these trees clearly lifted people's spirits with their beauty. Thanks for sharing your story and for everything you do to raise appreciation for nature in the Big Apple. Speaking of urban landscapes, our attention now shifts to the islands of Macau, a city and special administrative region of China in the Pearl River Delta by the South China Sea. It is the most densely populated region in the world and a gambling mecca. Our storyteller is Chi Ngai Chan, a staff scientist at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center of Harvard Medical School in Boston. Chi grew up in Macau and remembers that it wasn't all built up. Chi Ngai Chan: [15:11] My name is Chi, and I was born in the city of Macau in the 1980s. Back then, it was a Portuguese colony which would be returned to China in 1999. Like Hong Kong next door, it was a western foothold in Communist China and is heavily urbanized. Unlike Hong Kong, its main industry was, and still is, the gambling industry. Trees are few and far between amongst the concrete jungle, no matter how much the local primary school textbooks praise the virtues of trees and greenery. But in the two outer islands away from Macau City, you can still find forests and nature. My favorite spot was a mangrove forest in a sheltered bay between the two islands. Slow ocean currents and tides kept the forest fed and brought in all kinds of strange aquatic life and elegant shorebirds. During lunch breaks in my primary school, my dad will pick me and my sister up to have lunch next to this alien yet beautiful landscape. I spent many happy afternoons counting crabs, muscicapas, and herons while eating noodles with my family. Alas, the forest was living on borrowed time. The tides that fed the forest were slowly cut off by land reclamation nearby, and one day, the whole forest turned black. Overnight, people suspected that the forest was poisoned to hasten its demise so that a new casino could be built on top of it, but no one was held responsible. Staring at this black mass of death, I was both livid and hopeless since I could not change the situation. Ironically, when the casino was built, they turned the swarm where the mangrove forest used to be into an artificial lake and added nonnative water lilies to beautify it. The tourists would never know what was lost in the name of progress. [music] Doug Still: [17:32] Chi, when you first told me about the mangroves at Macau, you asked if it was appropriate for this show. I answered “It absolutely is.” Some stories are hard to hear and make us angry, but we need to hear it, because we need those vital mangrove communities to stem the effects of climate change and to protect wildlife and our oceans. Maybe by telling what can happen and how easily they might disappear, we can add to the growing alarm over the disappearance of mangrove forests worldwide. It's about time to hear about some living trees, and contributor, Fran Hutton, takes us there, to Western Pennsylvania specifically. Fran is a mostly retired GIS consultant and cartographer. She loves to sing and travel, especially to places where she can see the forests and wildlife. For fun, she maps her journeys as a cartographer would. And she's known to practice her music in the woods too. I know her as a singer in a group my husband belongs to, the award-winning mixed a capella chorus, Voices United. Fran Hutton: Hi, my name is Fran and I want to tell you about the largest white oak tree I have ever seen. In 1969, when I was 12, my parents moved us to Indiana County, Pennsylvania, 2 miles up a long hill from the village of Rochester Mills in Grant Township. The 40 acres we eventually purchased was a mix of old farm fields, wild woods, and tree plantations. Our driveway was a long lane off Nashville Road that went past the house, past a large barn, and then turned uphill at the barn and curved into the woods. The first time we walked up that path to its end, we saw the oak. In 1969, it was over 13ft in circumference. It had huge branches that spread out wide enough to lie down on. This magnificent white oak dwarfed all the other large old trees around. It was also widely known in the area. True or not, we were told by some of the locals that we had really good water since that oak grew where it needed a lot of water, and our springhouse was directly downhill from the oak and our water was pure and abundant. My brothers used the tree as a readymade deer stand during hunting season. But I would bring my books or writing into the woods and lean against the tree and ponder its long history. The local people, some farmers, some descendants of the Indian tribes who had lived there, and old loggers who had worked at the logging camp on the property, said that the tree was well over 300 years old. I wondered how this tree had survived not being nibbled away by the deer, not being cleared for farmland in the 1700s, or for lumbering in the 1800s. I wondered if the oak's roots had been shaken by the Conestoga wagons that passed by on a nearby trail that went west. I wished I could have seen all the history the oak had seen. Whenever I visited my parents in later years, I always hiked up to see that dear old tree. The last time, I hiked up the trail, past the barn, up the hill in the woods to pay homage to the old tree was in 2019. This tree helped grow my love of history, geography, and cartography, which had become my profession. The property was sold in 2019 and I hope that the oak still stands and brings joy and inspiration to more generations. [music] Doug Still: [21:23] I'm sure the old oak is still there, Fran. Sounds like it could have been a boundary tree, marking the edge of a property or a field. I understand Pennsylvania has a lot of boundary trees that were kept for this reason. If you ever make a visit back, please let us know. The next story is from Brandon Namm, a tree inspector for the city of Portland, Oregon, and a private consulting arborist with Laurelin Tree Consulting. Sit back and listen to him tell us about a wonderful redwood tree. Brandon Namm: [21:55] My name is Brandon Namm, and I am an arborist living in Portland, Oregon. My favorite tree is a coast redwood that grows along the Avenue of the Giants in Humboldt Redwoods State Park, California. Growing up, my parents, sisters, and I would camp at the state park every year. It was a long trip up from Southern California and our favorite secret swimming spot on the Eel River was always our first place to stop to wash up. To find the spot, we looked for a very large redwood tree growing immediately next to the avenue. Its heartwood is burnt out, leaving a large entrance and cavity called the Goose Pen. You can see the Goose Pen only when approaching the tree from one side, making it an even more secret spot. It is truly a giant pillar of a tree and is large enough for us to have privacy to change and get ready to go down to the river. A short walk through the woods leads down to the Eel River where we spent many afternoons swimming and playing. We even actually left the dog there a couple of times. It is such a special place that bringing new people to the spot was a very big deal. I can remember the first time showing my wife which tree marks our family's secret place and leading her to the river. I didn't ask my younger sister's permission, and I think I'm still in trouble. In 2021, my father died of Parkinson's disease. We were always very close. Growing up, people commented on how much we looked alike and I think we both took it as a compliment. He was a compassionate and caring father who always had time to listen to me. Our time spent together hiking, playing baseball, reading, and just sitting quietly in the car during road trips are small moments I will never forget. When my father died, it was the heart of COVID, and we never ended up having a big memorial service. But in October of that year, our family met at Humboldt Redwoods State Park and spread my dad's ashes in the Eel River. Afterward, I kept a bit of them to spread inside the big redwood and to have my own moment with him. My wife is now pregnant with our first child. And I can't wait to point out the big redwood with the Goose Pen that leads to the swimming spot. I'm terribly sad to know my dad will never meet them, but it is a comfort to know we can always visit the tree growing along the Avenue of the Giants and know he will be there to guide the way. [music] Doug Still: [24:40] Wow. Thank you, Brandon, for being willing to share that emotional story about you and your dad. That coastal redwood clearly means a lot to you and your family. The love comes through, so thank you, and good luck to you and your wife with a new baby. Eva Monheim is a speaker, consultant, garden coach, designer, writer, photographer, and co-host of The Plant a Trillion Trees Podcast with Hal Rosner. I'm a regular listener to their podcast, the purpose of which is to encourage tree planting and proper tree care for our urban forests, as well as to promote the importance of established trees and their benefits. Do check it out. She is also the author of Shrubs and Hedges: Discover, Grow, and Care for the World's Most Popular Plants, a book that was inspired by her years of teaching woody plants as an assistant professor at Temple University in the department of landscape architecture and horticulture, Eva took time from her packed schedule to record this story about a European beech tree that she saw a change over time. Eva Monheim: [25:48] Hello, my name is Eva Monheim, and I'm going to tell you a little bit about a European beech or Fagus sylvatica. When I was working at the Ambler campus of Temple University, I was a professor of landscape architecture and horticulture, and I taught woody plants. The one plant that I taught was European beech. This tree that we had was quite old, about 150 years old, and it was beautiful. It looked like it had elephant skin. That's classic for the tree. One of the primary ways it reproduces is to lay its branches down to the ground if you let it. In this case, there was one branch that was allowed to touch the ground and root. Over time, this branch eventually rooted, and it stood up. That's classic when once the new progeny is independent, it will actually be vertical rather than horizontal. At that same time, there was construction of a new building and a garden, and they brought in a big truck, and it had stone, and they parked it right on the old parent's root. If you know anything about Fagus sylvatica, they do not like compressed roots. They like to be undisturbed. So, after the truck had left, the tree started to decline, and it declined over a period of about five years. During that time, I would have meditation classes that I would teach, and students would come to this tree and touch it and do meditations on it. Over time, this tree declined and started to rot, and then there was an animal living in it. To watch the process of this old tree giving its energy to this young progeny was fascinating because you could actually see how the energy was leaving the parent tree and going into the young tree and providing for it. I never could figure out when I was going to England, I've lived in England and saw these tree rings in England, and I realized that those tree rings were created by a solitary European beech that had laid its branches all the way around itself to create a ring. From that parent, the parent provides the food for the young ones. In this case when the parent died, the limb was severed from the parent and the young tree continued to grow. More recently, there was a tornado that went through the campus and I'm not sure if the tree is still standing, but just to know that the parent was unselfish in giving its energy to the young tree really amazed me. When you see a tree ring, trees where you think that they're purposely planted may not be purposely planted, depending on what type of tree is creating the tree ring. In the case of Fagus sylvatica, they create their own tree rings. So, when you see something like that in Europe and you think about it, or you look at the structures of the trees, you can pretty much tell whether they are the offspring of the parent and they're not purposely planted. So, consider that when you're looking at and observing nature in its best. Of course, I think this is one of the best stories of an unselfish parent giving to its child. [music] Doug Still: [29:50] I'm starting to sense another theme today having to do with parents and children, both human and tree, and passing on to the next generation. Thank you, Eva, for your observations of the beach tree over time and finding the poetry in it. Along these same lines, I'd like to introduce Leena Chapagain. Leena is a botanist and currently a gardener in the historic garden at Dumbarton Oaks in Washington DC. I had the pleasure of meeting Leena on a recent trip to Washington and learned that she is originally from Nepal, where her father was a forest officer and also owned a private tree nursery. She has a story about the Indian rosewood tree - the Latin name is Dalbergia sissoo - and the importance of ecological restoration, with a surprise family twist. Leena Chapagain: [30:41] Hello, my name is Leena Chapagain. I'm a botanist. I did a master's degree in botany. I have my qualification done and education done in Nepal from [unintelligible 00:30:56] University. And then I did. My master's from Bangkok. Asian Institute of Technology Thailand. Nowadays I'm working as a gardener at Dumbarton Oaks, DC. Today, I'm going to talk briefly about my favorite tree specimen. Actually, there are so many trees which are favorite to me, but my favorite tree is Dalbergia sissoo. Its common English name is Indian rosewood tree. It's a hardwood, and it's native to South Asia. Commonly found in Nepal, India, Afghanistan. This plant-- this species is hardwood, and not very moderately-- but the fast-growing tree. Especially, it is used for timber, used for making furniture, windows, doors, house. Compared to other hardwood trees, it is very fast growing. People love to use it and then people love to plant these spaces in their property. For ecological purposes, we use it for erosion control. It has a drought tolerance, drought resistance, and it can grow very nicely in the riverine area, in the weather log area. Also, it can tolerate, it can thrive. So, it is a great tree. It grows up to 40 to 60 ft height and forms a very nice canopy. This is my favorite plant because I am somewhat emotionally attached to these species because my first job is start long back, I will take you. But when my first job started, it was U.N.-funded, U.N.-supported project. We had massive deforestation because of different regions in the eastern part of Nepal and there was a lot of flood and then the people settlements problems and then natural forest was declining. I luckily got a chance to work in that project. Our role was to cover the area eroded area that deforested area, make it naturally, and then let it to grow, let it to make that ecosystem balance as soon as possible. So, what we have to do? We have to choose the past growing spaces as well as, then there was a lot of erosion going on, gully erosion, that also we needed to control. So, Dalbergia sissoo, we picked. So, we picked this one. About 25,000 plants we planted within a two months, about 10km of periphery, the water bank, the river bank area, and the roadside. And why I was emotionally attached with this plant, I will just briefly tell you. When I was 10, 11 years old we had a forest nursery back home. I used to work with my dad. Up to midnight were working, putting the polybag, the plant in the polybag, and the stump cutting and were preparing it and the plant got ready within four to five years by the time I was 11, 12 years old, when I was in college and start my job, almost 20 years old. And I got that project and we got the demand from the project, from the office like, "We need 25,000 plants. Can you deliver? This much height." We got that plant from my dad's nursery! And I was working there and my dad started to cry when he got the bid for the project and he started to cry. Same time, I was crying too. That is the very emotional attachment with that plant. And then in the same time, it became my favorite plant too. Doug Still: [35:40] Honestly, I can't stop smiling every time I play back Leena's moving story from Nepal. I feel transported there. She became a US citizen in 2013, but I can see her love of plants and ecology came from her dad back home. Keep up the good work Leena and I encourage everyone to visit Dumbarton Oaks if you ever get the chance. Lastly, we have the honor and privilege to hear from one of our country's long time leaders in forestry, Steven Koehn. Steve is the director of Cooperative Forestry with the US Forest Service in Washington DC. And provides expert advice and counsel to the Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry, where he's responsible for plans, programs, and policies that promote forestry on state and private lands, including rural forestry, urban forestry, open space conservation, woody biomass, ecosystem services, forest taxation, reforestation, nurseries, and gene conservation, and climate change adaptation. Previously, Steve was director and state forester for the Maryland Forest Service, and he's held many leadership positions. He's coordinated input on national forest policy issues such as the 2008 Farm Bill, national forest sustainability policy, and US Forest Service, State and Private Forestry Redesign. He serves on numerous boards and committees and is a fellow with the Society of American Foresters. I think you get the picture. Like me, he got a forester degree from Penn State. So, go Nittany Lions. Here's Steve's story. Steve Koehn: [37:21] Hello. My name is Steve Koehn. I'm the Director of Cooperative Forestry with the US Forest Service here in the Washington office. Prior to that, I was also the state forester for the State of Maryland, working 31 years with the Maryland Forest Service. And I'd like to tell you a story about my fond memories of the largest white oak tree in the nation, which used to grow in the state of Maryland in the small village of Wye Mills on Maryland's Eastern Shore. It was a white oak, but it was known as the Wye Oak, spelled W-Y-E. And one tree was the subject of the Wye Oak State Park. So, there was a state park that was only the size, basically, of the footprint of the tree. It was the nation's largest white oak. It was approximately 460 years old. It was a gigantic, majestic, spreading crown. By the time I got to know her, she was showing her age a little bit. There were a lot of cavities that had been filled by concrete that arborists had tried to shore up the structural integrity of the tree. And much of the tree had cabling and bracing to make sure that we weren't losing any major portions of the tree trunk or major limbs. We had lost a major limb several years before I became state forester. The one limb that fell off the tree in a storm at that time was 33 tons. That limb was 33 tons and when it was salvaged, that limb was used by an artist to create a sculpture, a wooden sculpture of two children planting an oak tree that sits in the lobby of the Tawes State Office Building, which is the office of the Department of Natural Resources in Maryland. This tree, forgive the expression, but it had a storied past. In June of 2002, as the Maryland State Forester, I got a call late one evening that a line of thunderstorms had come through and the Wye Oak had collapsed in one of the thunderstorms. I made my way down to the Eastern Shore from my house to take over the recovery aspects of trying to secure the site and make sure that there was no further damage or harm came from the tree, which had taken down power lines and caused a blockage of a major road through the village. All through the night, people were coming to express their deepest sympathies and condolences for the loss of the tree. Many people were trying to gather leaves that had fallen off the tree or asked to have a leaf from the tree. We had a Native American come and represent his Indian tribe and sat and kneeled with the tree for about 15 minutes to pay homage to the spirit of the tree and what it meant to their particular tribe. So, it was quite a loss for the State of Maryland but we were able to salvage every bit of the wood and anything that was structurally solid got either cut up into boards or made into other objects. We provided wood products to all the local counties on the eastern shore, and they had their county seal for the county courthouse redone in white oak wood. There was a lot of timber that was made available to local artisans that made all kinds of artifacts and all kinds of artwork, picture frames, and things that were utilitarian, as well as sculptures and other kinds of carvings. Lots of pens were made from white oak wood. A lot of ladies' pins for their blouses were made out of leaves. A good chunk of the wood that we had recovered from the tree was built into the current Governor of the State of Maryland's desk. So, the Governor of the State of Maryland has a Wye Oak wooden desk that he or she signs all the legislation on to become law in Maryland. The first person who was able to authorize the use of wood for that at the time was Governor Ehrlich. The most recent governor who just came out of office, Governor Hogan, also signed most, if not all of the bills that went into become law. All that legislation was signed on the Wye Oak desk. We, as the State of Maryland, decided that we took some of the wood from the collapsed tree and we took cuttings from that and were able to graft those cuttings onto generic white oak rootstock, basically creating clones of the traditional and original Wye Oak tree. And we have been growing those seedlings. An original Wye Oak clone has gone back onto the original site and is growing the next generation of Wye Oak at the old site. Some of the other seedlings that were cloned have been allowed to get big enough to produce acorns and now we are making available acorns from the clones of the original tree so people can get a grandson or a granddaughter, depending on how you want to look at it, seeds of the Wye Oak to be able to take home and plant in their people's own backyards or made use for other reasons like that. So, the Wye Oak, in a sense, lives on. I always thought that this was a tremendous experience in that the outpouring of love and concern and caring about what the tree represented to many, many families that stopped in there on their way to Ocean City or picnicked under the shade or urban wildlife that made their homes in the branches and the cavities of that tree. It was 460 years old, and it certainly served the community and all that cared about it very, very well. Some of my remembrances of the Wye Oak, I hope people understand that this is an important aspect of every Marylander's heritage, and I appreciate people wanting to know about the Wye Oak. You could check it out online if you ever had interest about what the wood was used for and how the wood was distributed and the history of the Wye Oak State Park. With that, I'll turn it back to our host. Thank you so much. Doug Still: [44:02] I had a chance to chat with Steve Koehn on the phone about the Wye Oak when he told another part of his tale that resonated with me as an arborist and urban forester. When he first stepped into the position of State Forester of Maryland, his predecessor left a letter in the desk for him to find, just like outgoing presidents do within the desk in the Oval Office. One message Steve received in the letter was something to the effect of, "Never let anything happen to the Wye Oak." Myself, as someone responsible for the care of a historic 240-year-old icon of a tree (episode 1, The Betsey Williams Sycamore), I could relate to the mix of honor and consternation Steve must have felt upon reading that. What a body blow it must have been for the storm to destroy the tree so soon afterward. We should have nothing but respect for Steve and his team for managing the loss, properly mourning the tree, and turning its pieces into artifacts that have become part of Maryland's history and lore. What an honor to have all of these wonderful stories told by our contributors. Thanks again to Gil Reavill, Jim Voorhies, Georgia Silvera Seamans, Chi Chan, Fran Hutton, Brandon Namm, Eva Monheim, Leena Chapagain, and Steven Koehn. You help make this episode special. And thank you, tree lovers, for listening. As many as I can, I plan to post photos of the trees and people featured today on Facebook and Instagram, so keep an eye out. Also, check out the website at thisoldtree.show. I've got a T-shirt for you if you're interested. Most of all, if you've enjoyed this show, please find the Share Episode button on your podcast app and send it along to someone you think might enjoy it too. I will see you next time. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme playing] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Major Oak of Sherwood Forest (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 12 Published March 13, 2023 [music] The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [00:09] In Merry England, long ago, when good King Henry II ruled, a famous outlaw lived in Sherwood Forest, near the town of Nottingham. His name was Robin Hood, and no archer was his equal, nor was there ever such a band as his hundred and forty merry men. They lived carefree lives in the forest; they passed the time competing at archery or battling with the quarterstaff; they lived on the King's deer and washed it down with strong October ale. They were outlaws, of course, but the common people loved them - for no one who came to Robin in need went away empty-handed. Doug Still: [00:57] Welcome, listeners, Doug here. Flash forward to today and Sherwood Forest still exists in the County of Nottinghamshire. Within it, there is the most charming old oak tree you've ever laid your eyes on. It may well have harbored Robin Hood and his merry men, or perhaps people like them. It's called The Major Oak, and honestly, it ranks as one of the most famous trees in the world. In 2014, The Woodland Trust held its first Tree of the Year contest in England by public vote, and The Major Oak won, beating out tough competitions such as Old Knobbley, the Ickwell Oak, the Ankerwycke Yew near where the Magna Carta was signed, and Newton's apple tree. People from all over the world visit The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest, drawn by the legend. I have two guests from Sherwood Forest National Nature Reserve to help describe why the tree is so special. One is Paul Cook, the warden tasked with maintaining the woodland and the landscape. The other is the Sheriff of Nottingham, or that is Richard Townsley, a tour guide and local authority on Robin Hood. There's an aura around this tree, thanks to the legend. But what I found out is that the tree's allure and lasting popularity has really become about so much more. I can barely contain my excitement. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:42] I follow a number of tree-related forums online, on Facebook and Instagram, and other places. And there are certain trees that people post about over and over again. The Major Oak is one of them because it oozes character. Paul Cook: [02:57] It's an amazing tree. The Major Oak is a famous oak tree. Doug Still: [03:04] That's Paul Cook, who for 20 years has been the warden at Sherwood Forest, caring for the reserves, woodland, wood pasture, and lowland heath. He manages a small team of two assistant wardens, a state worker, contractors, and dozens of volunteers who they couldn't do without. He also has the enviable, if not pressure-filled responsibility of caring for The Major Oak, England's millennium-old icon. Paul Cook: [03:31] So, it's a Quercus robur, which is a pedunculate oak, which is also known as the English oak. The tree itself, we estimate, weighs about 23 tons. It's got a trunk circumference of about 33ft. So, that's quite a broad tree. But it is for the UK, anyway. I know you've got quite big trees in the States. Doug Still: [03:56] That's pretty broad. Paul Cook: [03:58] It's certainly not the biggest tree or the oldest tree here in the UK, but it's certainly one of the most famous trees. And basically because of the link to Robin Hood. Doug Still: [04:09] The tree has a commanding presence with wide-spreading branches. There is a series of support poles beneath them, creating the appearance of an elderly grandparent leaning on multiple canes, but head held high. Its main branches, some as big as old trees themselves, form a U shape, as they lift upward. Upper branches form twisting, turning, silhouettes against the sky. The gnarly, weathered trunk undulates with bulges and hollows that vibrate with life. But what I quickly learned from Paul is that The Major Oak is viewed as the most well-known member of a larger, vital ecosystem, defined by hundreds of veteran trees, as they are known in the UK. Paul Cook: [04:51] As you walk towards The Major Oak from the visitor center, it's about 20 minutes' walk from the visitor center, in the center of the forest. It really hits you, because it's a big tree. It used to be in the middle of nowhere, so we think it was like a parkland tree. It was in the middle of a big expansive grassland or woodland pasture. Doug Still: [05:16] I love that it's not just next to the visitor center or something. You have to take a little walk to get to it. Paul Cook: [05:22] Yeah, exactly. We are a triple site, so we are a site for special scientific interests. We're also a SAC, a special area of conservation, which is a European designation. And we are a nature reserve. We are a national nature reserve, and we're one of a handful of ancient woodlands. But when we became a SAC in 2002, one of the requirements for that was that there should be no visitor's facility within the SAC. So, we had to remove all the buildings, the cafe, the shops, the toilets, the education center, all that had to be moved outside of the SAC. Doug Still: [06:08] That's great. Paul Cook: [06:11] Because of these ancient oaks, you would never put a house or a building so close to a tree like that. Doug Still: [06:18] No. Sherwood Forest Reserve is part of the larger RSPB or the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. It is the largest nature conservation charity in the country, dating back to 1889, and it manages over 200 nature reserves across the UK. So, this tree has a massive trunk, and is there a hollow? Paul Cook: [06:40] Yeah, the ancient oak trees are classed as anything that's over 300 years old. So, when it becomes about 300 years old, there is a saying that it spends its first 100 years growing. So, literally from an acorn, a tiny acorn. These trees just shoot straight up into the sky and get as high as they can get. And then, the second 100 years, they start to grow outwards, they start to lose the tops of the trees and they start to put on girth and really grow outwards. Any competition, any weaker trees will then die back because we always like to be very British, very English. We don't like being touched, we don't like being too close to people. We like our space. Doug Still: [07:29] And it's the English oak. Paul Cook: [07:31] Yeah. That's the same with the English oak. It doesn't like being too close to other trees. It certainly doesn't like being touched by other trees. We tend to get a lot of die back away from each other or they grow away from each other. So, the trees are over 300 years old. They start to retrench, and they start to put on girth. The third 100 years is they kind of live their life and they put out maximum girth. They start to hollow out inside. So, the trees become-- they lose the heartwood and put all the energy into growing outwards. They lose the tops. In fact, we call them stag-headed oaks as well, because the top starts to retrench, it starts to die back, and they look like stag antlers. Doug Still: [08:23] So, retrenchment means the ends of the branches die, and its resources are put more towards the trunk and the roots and a different sort of survival mode. Paul Cook: [08:36] Yeah, exactly. It starts to come back in towards the trunk. We've got some big wide trees that are short in height and that's our veteran trees. They've got loads of different characters as well. It's not just about the age. They've got obviously the hollowing of the tree, they've got deadwood inside the canopy of the tree as well, which we encourage. Doug Still: [09:02] I was going to ask if you're okay with the deadwood. Paul Cook: [09:05] Yes, definitely. We've got over a thousand of these veteran oak trees in the area that we manage. Out of those, about 650 are alive, living. The minimum is 300 years old, and they are still growing, still alive, but they're producing signs of decay. So, with the heartwood hollowing out, with the branches starting to hollowing, and decay coming out. There's a lot of loose bark, you get flaky bark on there, so you can get bats that love to burrow just underneath the bark. We've got a lot of rare beetles and invertebrates that live within the dead, decaying wood. Doug Still: [10:01] There's quite an ecosystem within a single tree, isn't there? Paul Cook: [10:05] Absolutely. We've got one of the largest cohorts of ancient oaks in the world and some are like-- I say some are living and some are dead. Each one can have over 600 different species of invertebrates. We call them saproxylic invertebrates because these are invertebrates that are dependent on dead or decaying wood. And we've got a spider called the-- it's a small, a tiny, tiny spider that's called Midia midas. And it's one of Britain's rarest spiders. That is associated just with ancient oak trees. You won't find it in any other habitat, but just ancient oak trees. Doug Still: [10:47] Really interesting. Paul Cook: [10:48] Yeah. So, it is nationally endangered. Doug Still: [10:51] What's the ecosystem like in the forest as a whole? Paul Cook: [10:54] Ecosystem is fantastic. Like I said, we've got over a thousand veteran trees. We've also tagged 600, what we call the next generations. These are the trees that are going to replace the veterans once they've gone and fallen over. 600 of the veterans are alive. We've got about 400 of the veterans that are completely dead. So, the dead-standing oaks. Doug Still: [11:20] Does it feel like you're in a deep forest or is it open? Paul Cook: [11:24] It is quite an open forest. In between the ancient oaks, we've got smaller oaks, so less of an age. We've also got things like silver birch trees, willow, hazel, hawthorne, sycamore, rowan, so we've got a mixture of trees. One thing about Sherwood Forest is we don't have any water features. So, we've got no rivers or lakes within the forest itself. The soil is very dry, sandy soil as well, so it's very free draining. Doug Still: [11:58] That's good for oaks. Paul Cook: [12:00] Yes, perfect for the oaks. Doug Still: [12:02] How old is The Major Oak? Paul Cook: [12:04] For years, we've been talking about there's always a figure banded around, about 800 years old. But actually, we had some work done with the Woodland Trust. The Woodland Trust is a UK-wide organization that specifically looks at woodlands. They have been doing some work with Windsor Great Park, down by London, Windsor Castle. The good thing about Windsor is that every time a royal person was born, they planted a tree. So, when a king or queen was born, they planted a tree. When a king or queen died, they planted a tree. At certain events, they planted a tree. So, they've got records of when these trees were planted. So, they can go back and look at this tree and they could do a methodology, they can measure it DBH, they could do diameter at breast height. Measure the tree, take some characteristics from that and they can work out how old these trees are. Doug Still: [13:03] And that's a perfect reference. Paul Cook: [13:06] They've applied the same principles, the same methodology to Sherwood here. We reckon that The Major Oak is about 1200 years old. Obviously, that's a guesstimate. Doug Still: [13:18] That is older than I thought. Paul Cook: [13:19] Yeah. Doug Still: [13:20] I had seen 800 plus, which I guess it fits into that category. Paul Cook: [13:26] Yeah. I always go on the theory that I'm working with 1200 years old. Doug Still: [13:32] Wow. Paul Cook: [13:34] The Major Oak is also mentioned in quite a few textbooks as well. So, we do have a lot of records for The Major Oak. Doug Still: [13:41] So, pre-Norman invasion? Paul Cook: [13:44] Yes. Doug Still: [13:45] It was standing at the time of the Robin Hood legend, which was about 12th century. What did Sherwood Forest look like at that time, during Medieval England? Paul Cook: [13:58] Sherwood Forest used to cover over 100,000 acres. It was quite a big forest in the UK, and it would cover about one-fifth of the county of Nottinghamshire. It went from the city of Nottingham in the south of the county, right up the full length-- our county, the county of Nottinghamshire is quite long and thin. So, it covered the full length of Nottinghamshire, and it went up into the neighboring counties of South Yorkshire as well. It was a mixture of dense oak trees and birch, open woodland birch trees. In fact, one of the other names for this area is the Birklands. A Birkland is a Viking word that meaning 'birch land'. Doug Still: [14:52] What type of birch? Could you give the Latin name? Paul Cook: [14:56] It's silver birch. Betula pendula. Doug Still: [15:00] Pendula? Paul Cook: [15:01] Pendula. Yeah. In fact, Sherwood itself means "The wood of the shire." Doug Still: [15:06] So, it's quite an impressive forest. If you could get lost in it? Paul Cook: [15:11] Certainly, yeah. I mean, if you look at a lot of the tales of Robin Hood, it was full of people that didn't want to be found by the establishment, so they would go into the forest and hide. [music] Doug Still: [15:25] After a short break, the Sheriff of Nottingham tells us his version of the Robin Hood tales. You're listening to This Old Tree. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [15:42] Old Nottinghamshire was in a great stir, for King Richard the Lionhearted was to visit Nottingham Town in the course of a royal journey through Merry England. People were at work everywhere, preparing a grand banquet at the Guildhall. His Majesty was to sit side by side with the Sheriff at a feast. Evening had come, the great feast at the Guildhall was done. The lords, nobles, knights, and squires all sat enjoying wine. The King said to the Sheriff, "I have heard much about the deeds of certain outlaws around here. Their leader is called Robin Hood and they are said to live in Sherwood Forest. Can you tell me more about them, Sir Sheriff?" The Sheriff looked down gloomily. "I can tell your Majesty little about the deeds of these naughty fellows, but they are surely the boldest lawbreakers in all England." Then, young Sir Henry of the Lee spoke, "May it please your Majesty, when I was away in the Holy Land, I often heard from my father. He told me many stories of this Robin Hood. If Your Majesty wishes, I will share one with you." The young knight told how Robin Hood had helped Sir Richard of the Lee with money borrowed from the Bishop of Hereford. Again and again, the King and others roared with laughter. When Sir Henry was done. Others present followed his lead by telling other tales concerning Robin and his Merry Men. "This is as bold a rascal as I have ever heard of," King Richard said. "I must do what you cannot, Sheriff. Clear the forest of him and his band." That night, the King was relaxing in the finest lodgings in Nottingham. His Majesty was still thinking about Robin Hood. "I would freely give a hundred pounds to meet this Robin Hood and to see how he lives in Sherwood Forest." Sir Hubert of Gingham spoke up with a laugh. "If Your Majesty were willing to lose £100, I could arrange for you not only to meet this fellow but to feast with him in Sherwood tomorrow." "I would be willing, Sir Hubert," the King replied. "But how will you do this?" "Very simply," Sir Hubert said." "Your Majesty and six of us here will dress in black friar's robes, and your Majesties shall conceal a purse of £100 beneath your gown. We will then attempt to ride from here to Mansfield Town tomorrow, unless I am mistaken, we will meet and dine with Robin Hood before the day is out." "I like your plan, Sir Hubert," the King said merrily. "Tomorrow, we will try it." Doug Still: [18:20] To get the best take on the history of Robin Hood, I was directed to Richard Townsley. Most visitors to Sherwood Forest would see the Sheriff of Nottingham standing before them. So, welcome to the show. Richard Townsley: [18:33] Welcome. Thank you. Doug Still: [18:34] How should I refer to you? Richard Townsley: [18:36] Well, I am the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire. So, my Lord Sheriff or simply the Sheriff is fine. Doug Still: [18:43] The Sheriff? Can I call you, my lord? Richard Townsley: [18:45] My Lord or just Lord. Yes. Doug Still: [18:47] My Lord? Okay. [laughs] That's good to know. The Lord Sheriff is one of a cast of characters you can meet if you visit the forest. But regarding the legend and its evolution over time, he is the chief authoritarian, I mean, authority. Since the dramatic events 800 years ago with Robin Hood and you, you've had to endure a lot of versions of the tale of the Robin Hood legend. Depending on who's telling, it's often very different. But what would you say is the basic outline of the story that we know today, from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [19:23] Well, I think that the original basis is that he is an outlaw, which in English law at the time meant something very specific. It didn't mean he was a convicted criminal. It meant that he had failed to attend court. He was summoned to court, he was asked to come three times, he would have been, and then--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [19:42] He did not show? Richard Townsley: [19:43] So, he didn't show. So, he's on the run. That placed him outside the law, which in a strict legal sense meant that anyone could kill him because he was now not protected by the law because he defied it. So, he's an outlaw. It never, ever tells us why. In various poems and tales, right back to the earliest, he's always wanted, but they never actually say why. The reason I like the idea of being My Lord Sheriff, or just the Sheriff, is that the Sheriff is there right at the beginning. He is always the adversary of Robin Hood. And again, we're never really told why. And the Sheriff is never named. We know the name of pretty well every Sheriff right back almost 1000 years. There's a Sheriff still today. There's a High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire today. Doug Still: [20:30] Who's the Sheriff today? Richard Townsley: [20:32] It's Michael Paul Southby. It's slightly confusing because in fact we have three Sheriffs. There's me, who I consider myself to be the historic Sheriff. There is a Sheriff of Nottingham appointed by the City of Nottingham, which is in effect, she's the Deputy Mayor, the Lord Mayor of Nottingham, and it is a city council appointment, and that goes back to about the 1500s. We have the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, which is an appointment of the Crown. This current Sheriff was appointed by the late Queen and his appointment has been extended by the current King. Doug Still: [21:05] I see. Well, you have a lot of authority with me, so we're safe here. Richard Townsley: [21:10] So, he's an outlaw, he's living in the forest and that's quite important. That it's Sherwood. Sherwood was a royal forest, so it had special protection, it was used for the King's personal hunting grounds. There was a lot of resentment around the use of royal forests and the imposition that made on local people. They couldn't hunt in areas where they had traditionally hunted maybe hundreds of years before. There was a lot of extra laws and rules designed to protect those forests and protect the royal hunting grounds, which fell heavily on ordinary people. So, there were some advantages of living in and around royal forests, but generally, it was an imposition, and local people didn't like that. Doug Still: [21:51] Which King declared it a royal forest? Richard Townsley: [21:53] Well, Sherwood is actually Shirewood. England is divided up into shires, the old Saxon word is "skūr" and that's where we get Sheriff from. It's "skūr refer". The "refer" was the "reeve", so the shire-reeve became the Sheriff. So, Sherwood was the Shirewood, so it's always been the wood of the shire. By the looks of it, there was a royal hunting ground here before the coming of the Normans. Certainly, William I, William the Conqueror, was a big huntsman and he really did exploit the royal hunting grounds and I think he drew very tight lines around them, imposed very strict laws, and kept them very much as royal preserves. That was, I think, resented, A, because it was an imposition on local people, and B, he was the invader. He was the foreigner come and took over England. So, William I is really the man that imposes the strict version of royal forest that we know in the Middle Ages. Doug Still: [22:56] So, there were foresters back then, right? Richard Townsley: [22:59] Yes. Doug Still: [23:00] What was the role of a forester? Richard Townsley: [23:03] Right at the top of the chain, the King appointed a keeper of the royal forests. So, he was at the very top of it. They then divided England into two along the line of the River Trent, which runs through Nottinghamshire. So, everything North of the Trent had a keeper north and we had a keeper south. The southern half of England had a sub-keeper, and then each forest had a keeper too. So, there's a chain of command going all the way up to the king. And then, the king appointed a keeper. So, it was a keeper of Sherwood Forest and then he appointed foresters. And then, the foresters also had verderers, and various other officials streaming out. It was quite a bureaucracy. There was a whole clutch of people supposed to overlook it, but mainly the job of the forester was to be out in the forest and they were managing the forest. Doug Still: [23:55] I see, and how did your jurisdictions overlap, you and the foresters? Richard Townsley: [24:00] Well, for a lot of the time, the Sheriff had full legal responsibility for the shire, for the conduct of the shire, which involved the courts and collecting taxes. That's one of the reasons Sheriffs were not very popular. They had to collect all revenue due to the Crown came through the hands of the Sheriff for every shire. That obviously makes them-- nobody likes paying taxes, certainly not in Medieval, and they didn't. Generally, their Sheriff didn't always have responsibility for the forest. They did try to keep the jurisdictions separate. If you were caught with a deer-- and we referred to that being red-handed, if you were caught red-handed, you'd literally killed it inside the royal forest, you would be the responsibility of the keeper and the foresters and would go before a forest court. If you then took the deer home, which meant crossing the line into normal Nottinghamshire, you then became the responsibility of the Sheriff. So, you'd then come before the county court. Doug Still: [25:01] I see. Very complicated. And Robin Hood, I'm sure, did not want to come in front of anybody. Richard Townsley: [25:07] I think that's the basis of being outlawed. If you were caught, you're either caught red-handed and you knew you were going to be found guilty, so there's simply no point waiting around for the verdict. Let's you and I--we're bang to rights here. Or, which is equally likely in Medieval England, that you just knew that the people you were lined up against, you weren't going to have a fair trial because, in all the early stories, Robin is described as a yeoman, which puts him above serf. It makes him a free man, but it doesn't make him high up the social scale. So, abbots, lords, bishops, knights, all these people would kind of outrank him in the social structure. So, if there was some dispute, it's more likely the Sheriff is going to take the word of these people who are going to be closer to him in his social status, than someone like Robin. That's possibly why he went on the run. Doug Still: [25:58] So, Robin was a yeoman? Richard Townsley: [26:00] Yes. That's an interesting twist in the tale because in all the early references, they're absolutely clear about that. He's described again and again as a yeoman, and that's good, honest English stock. He's solid, a working man. He's going to have a job, a trade. He's not an aristocrat. He isn't a landowner. He might have owned a small farm of his own, but he is not a peasant, and he's definitely not a lord. In the later tales, he becomes that. That's where we get Earl of Huntingdon. One of my favorite films is the 1938 Errol Flynn The Adventures of Robin Hood, and by then he's become a dispossessed Earl and has moved up the social [unintelligible 00:26:41]. The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood excerpt: [26:45] Seven black friar's robes were brought for the king and his companions. The Hoods hid their faces well. His Majesty hung a purse of 100 golden pounds under his robe. They traveled on, laughing and joking, past recently harvested fields and scattered clumps of forest. Soon, the trees grew denser, and a few miles later, the party was well within the forest. "We forgot to bring anything to drink. Right now, I would give £50 for something to quench my thirst." No sooner had the king spoken than from the underbrush stepped a tall fellow with merry blue eyes. "Truly, holy brother," he said, taking hold of the king's reins. "We keep an inn nearby, and for £50, we will not only give you a generous drink of wine but also as noble a feast as you have ever had." The man gave a shrill whistle, and the bushes on either side of the road crackled to yield up 60 strong yeomen in Lincoln green. "What sort of naughty rogue are you?", the King said. "Have you no respect for holy men?" "Not in this case. My name is Robin Hood. You may have heard it before." "How dare you?", King Richard said." "Please let me and my brothers travel forward in peace." "I cannot," Robin replied." "It would be very bad manners to let such holy men travel onward with empty stomachs." "But since you offer so much for a little drink of wine, I'm sure you can afford a stay at our inn. Show your purse to me, reverend brother, rather than have me strip off those robes and find it myself." "Do not use force," the King said sternly. "Here is our purse, but do not lay hands upon our person." King Richard drew out and offered his purse. Will Scarlett took the purse and counted out the money. Then, Robin, had him keep £50 for themselves and put £50 back. This he handed to the king. "Here, brother. Now, how about putting back your hood so I can see your face?" "I cannot," the King said, drawing back. "We seven have vowed not to show our faces for 24 hours." "Then keep them covered," Robin said, "for I would never ask you to break your vows." Robin then called seven of his yeomen to lead the mules, and the mock friars were taken into the depths of the forest. They soon came to the clearing in front of the great oak tree. Doug Still: [29:19] So, they were bandits essentially though, right? Or would you call them that? Richard Townsley: [29:24] Yes. Again, an interesting point there, isn't it? It made me think a little bit of the American relationship with Bonnie and Clyde. I mean, they were murderers, weren't they? They were bank robbers, but they're still kind of seen as some heroism there. They're still a sort of-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [29:39] Right, romanticized. Richard Townsley: [29:41] Yes, and maybe more like Jesse James. He becomes a bandit and a robber, but he's originally supposed to have been cheated out of some land by the faceless railway company or whatever. There's this definite element in Robin Hood that he is doing good by being a robber. Various poets and various ballads refer to him as doing poor men good or poor men no harm. There's some element of only picking on targets that were not popular, particularly the high church officers. Abbots come in and bishops come in, a lot of [unintelligible 00:30:21] from Robin Hood. Doug Still: [30:22] Was there ever a story told from your point of view? Richard Townsley: [30:25] [laughs] No. Doug Still: [30:27] Sort of like Wicked, you know? Richard Townsley: [30:29] The Sheriff gets very bad press. It falls into two categories. The Sheriff is either a blundering fool, and he's easily tricked. A lot of the early Robin Hood stories have disguise as an element. There's one where Robin Hood waylays a potter who's on his way to a market in Nottingham. He's coming through Sherwood Forest. Robin Hood sort of hijacks the potter. The potter fights him, and the potter wins or does well in the fight. So, Robin Hood doesn't rob him. Doug Still: [3 1:00] He has respect. Richard Townsley: [31:02] Yes. He earns respect because he's resisting. He's also a tradesman. He stands up for himself. He would be equal status as a yeoman. But Robin takes his stock, goes into the city, sells the pots, sells some nice pots to the Sheriff's wife. In fact, in that story, the Sheriff's wife is one of the first women characters in the whole stories, is the Mrs. Sheriff. She so likes this roguish pottery seller that she invites him to dinner, which would be highly unlikely. They're wining and dining with the Sheriff. The potter says he knows where to find Robin Hood. The Sheriff says, "Okay, tomorrow, take me into the forest." Takes him into the forest, lures him into a trap, strips him of all his worldly goods and his clothes, sticks him on his horse and sends him back, and says, "The only reason I'm not slitting your throat is because I like your wife." [Douglas laughs] He's a sort of blundering fool-- I mean, the idea of a Medieval Sheriff being so duped with his nonsense. Doug Still: [32:05] I don't buy it for a minute. Richard Townsley: [32:06] I don't buy it either. [laughs] It has to be the fall guy. Doug Still: [32:12] Well, I think that's a story or a version of the story waiting to be told, then. Richard Townsley: [32:16] Definitely, yes. Doug Still: [32:18] Did Robin Hood hide out in that tree? Richard Townsley: [32:20] Absolutely, he definitely did. My grandmother told me so. Doug Still: [32:23] Okay. [laughs] So that's the end of that. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [32:27] I've no historical evidence to back that up, but she told me it. So, that's it. Doug Still: [32:33] Could you talk about where the name, The Major Oak, came from? Paul Cook: [32:37] Sure. It's been a tourist attraction for hundreds of years and it was originally called the Queen's Oak. On some maps, you might see it and it says the Queen's Oak. We think this was because it was literally one of the biggest trees in the forest, and it wasn't taken for timber, it was allowed to grow, and it was called the Queens Oak. Some of the other names for it as well is called the Cockpen Tree. The Cockpen Tree, because they used to do a lot of animal fighting, such as dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting, and also cock fighting. Doug Still: [33:20] Sherwood Forest has come a long way in that regard, hasn't it? [laughter] Richard Townsley: [33:23] Yes. It certainly has. Paul Cook: [33:25] But in 1790, a chap came along. He was a retired army soldier. He was a major, Major Hayman Rooke. He lived in Mansfield Woodhouse, which is just outside the forest-- Well, it would have been inside the forest, but now it's one of the towns outside the forest. For his retirement, he just used to go out and do the early form of documenting these trees. So, like we've got the Ancient Tree forum now and the inventory, he would go around Nottinghamshire recording all these trees. And in 1790, he wrote a book called Remarkable Oaks in Nottinghamshire. Again, on the front cover of the book was The Major Oak. In those days, it was just the Mighty Oak or the Queen's Oak, or the Cockpen Tree. Doug Still: [34:20] Are there many copies of that book in existence? Paul Cook: [34:24] I know you can see it online. Somebody's put it online. I have never seen a copy in the flesh, in the paper. I've never seen a copy of it, but I've read digital versions of it. There's all these different big oak trees that are actually recorded in this book. From then onwards, from 1790 onwards, it started to be called The Major Oak Tree, or the Major's Oak Tree. Doug Still: [34:55] All right, we dropped the "S." Paul Cook: [34:56] Yeah. It's now just become known as The Major Oak. It's named after Major Hayman Rooke, who was a retired army major. He was writing and documenting trees around this county. Doug Still: [35:10] Well, it sounds like he deserved it. Paul Cook: [35:12] Definitely. Doug Still: [35:13] It sounds like a great book. And he one-upped Robin Hood. Paul Cook: [35:17] By the way, he was born in 1723, so it's actually his 300th birthday. Doug Still: [35:24] Well, happy birthday, Major Rooke. After the break, we'll meet some of the other veteran oak trees in the forest and then learn about the extensive care The Major Oak has received in the past 50 years. This is This Old Tree. Nigel Holmes: [35:43] "By my soul," Merry King Richard said, when he had dismounted, "You have a fine band here, Robin. King Richard himself would be glad of such a bodyguard." Doug Still: [35:54] An archery competition was created. Members of the Merry Band had to shoot three arrows into a wreath at 120 paces. If they missed, they would get thrown by the wrestler, David of Doncaster. Some succeeded, but Wat the Tinker missed, and he was hurled into the mud with a splat. Everyone laughed. When it was Robin Hood's turn, a crooked feather made him miss too. Nigel Holmes: [36:19] And Robin flung his bow to the ground in irritation. "Curse it. Give me a clean arrow, and I will split the stake with it." The yeomen laughed louder than ever. "No, good master," Will Scarlett said. "The arrow was as good as any other shot today. David is waiting for you, for he wishes to pay you what he owes." "I am king in Sherwood, and no subject may lay hands on the king, but I will yield to the holy friar." He turned to the King. "Please, brother, will you give me my penance?" "With all my heart," Merry King Richard replied, rising from his seat, "You kindly relieved me of the heavy weight of £50, and I would like to thank you properly." "If you can truly throw me," Robin said, "I will give you back your money. But if you fail, brother, I will take the rest." "So be it," the King said. Doug Still: [37:18] Okay. Back to Paul Cook. What are the names of some of the other English oak trees in Sherwood Forest? Paul Cook: [37:25] We've got quite a few trees around the forest that we give names, and I suspect it was the same in the old days as well, you would name these trees because some of the trees would actually be part of your navigation and there'd be compass trees. The trees had branches at the north, south, east, and west point, and if there were any of the branches on there, you just take them off. So, they were called compass trees to help you navigate around the forest. Doug Still: [37:49] First I've heard of that. Paul Cook: [37:50] But we've also got things like Twister. Twister is one where the tree is literally just grown in a spiral. It's amazing. You look at it and you think, "How the hell is that tree still standing?" It's just grown in a spiral. We call that Twister. Doug Still: [38:08] I would love to see a picture of Twister. Paul Cook: [38:10] I've got a picture. Yeah, I'll send you a picture of a Twister. Doug Still: [38:12] Oh, great. Paul Cook: [38:14] We have the Bee Tree. This has got a colony of bees inside that, and I know it's been recorded there for about the last 45 years. Doug Still: [38:24] Incredible. Paul Cook: [38:25] Yeah. With the hollowing of the oak trees, it's like a cave. So, in the summer, it's quite cool. It's a nice, steady temperature. In the winter, it's again a nice slightly warmer than the outside temperature. The queen bee has been living in there and hibernating in there and obviously successions. This is a recorded bee's nest in there for the last 45 years. We have one called Man-eating Caterpillar because it's--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [38:57] [laughs] A Man-eating Caterpillar? Paul Cook: [38:59] Yeah, the Man-eating Caterpillar. It's got like legs, like the Eiffel Tower in Paris, if you can imagine the Eiffel Tower or Blackpool Tower. It stands high amongst the rest, and it's got hollowing underneath, and it's got legs. So, you can actually crawl inside it and then you can look up inside the tree, and it's said that once you go in there, you'll never come out. And then, we've got one called Rotten Roger, and it's named after a villain who was trapped inside the oak tree by Robin Hood. These are one of the tales that comes out. A lot of these tales, because you've also got to remember, in those days, not many people could read or write, so everything was by word of mouth. And most of it is true. There's a lot of true facts in there. And then, people say, "Oh, that doesn't sound very good, let's make it a bit more sexier," and start adding things in." And then, you end up with a fantastic story. Doug Still: [40:02] Yeah. And the good ones have staying power over time. Paul Cook: [40:06] Exactly. Yeah. We've got one called the Parliament Oak as well, and that's just within Sherwood Forest, but it's not on our bit of the land. The Parliament Oak is the only place in the UK where the Parliament has sat outside of London. With the King and all the MPs and members of Parliament, the King was on holiday in Sherwood Forest and there was something going on, and they had to have an emergency session outside of Parliament. And so they met underneath this oak tree called the Parliament Oak. Doug Still: [40:43] Symbolically, what do you think forest means in the Robin Hood tale? Do you think it's changed over time? Richard Townsley: [40:49] Yes, I think it has this historic meaning of a place where people were forbidden to carry out their normal lives. It would be normal to think, "Well, I can nip down--" peasants and what have you, Medieval England, starvation was never far away. The idea that you could just go into the wood and bring out something to eat, to feed your family, whether it was a hare or a squirrel or a rabbit or whatever. What would be considered just a basic human right, and the fact that the forestry laws prevented that would be a source of a lot of resentment. Doug Still: [41:22] So, it wasn't a scary place, exactly? Richard Townsley: [41:24] No, I definitely wouldn't think so. Not for local people. One of the misunderstandings I think a lot of people, particularly in America, have is that England is a small country, so even though there were big areas of forest, they were never densely forest. Sherwood Forest was as much heath as it was woodland, so there were lots of open space. There were certainly trades going on in the forest. Charcoal burning would have been common. Doug Still: [41:55] There were people there. There were hamlets. Richard Townsley: [41:57] Yeah. Sherwood Forest included villages. It included at least three big abbeys in the midst of the forest. There were roads through them. There were places you could stay out of the way of the authorities, but probably only with the support of local people. Doug Still: [42:15] So, it was life-giving. Was looked on as life-giving. Richard Townsley: [42:19] Absolutely, yeah. Doug Still: [42:21] Could you describe the support system around The Major Oak? There's a network of posts and poles and probably cables as well, right? Paul Cook: [42:31] Yes. When you walk towards The Major Oak, I think one of the first things you might see are the props. There's a lot of props holding up the branches. Now, in the old days, there used to be wooden, like, telegraph pole props. These were big pine struts and there was quite a few of them. There was about 15 or 16 of these props. They were put in about the early or mid-1900s. And in about 1902 to 1908. It was still of significant size, and they looked at the branches and it was starting to show signs of decay and collapse--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [43:18] So, they were stressed. Paul Cook: [43:18] It's falling off-- stress, yeah. So, what they did in 1902 is they started putting some chains and pulleys up in the top of The Major Oak. They took the top center bit, they put a metal banded ring around it, and then just like a wagon wheel, they took off spokes all the way around the tree and then used those to prop up some of these big, heavy branches. So, there are chains and pulley systems in the top of the oak to help take the stress and the weight of these big, heavy branches. Doug Still: [43:57] It looks like an elderly person too when you see this. You really get the sense that this tree is cared for, it's protected, it's old. Could you describe the root mapping project that was done in the last couple of years? What was that? What were you trying to accomplish and how did you do it? Paul Cook: [44:17] Yeah, we were looking at The Major Oak and it wasn't looking very good. For the last couple of years, it was always the last tree to come out in leaf. The leaves were looking very small, they were looking very yellow. It just wasn't looking good at all. It looked like it was about to die. It was getting stressed. So, we were looking at all the aspects of the tree, so we took a load of foliage samples, and we sent them off for analysis and we looked at the ground around the tree as well. Bearing in mind we get over 350,000 visitors a year, all coming to see The Major Oak, all wanting to come and climb all over it, they want to touch it, they want to walk around it, they want to have their photograph. Doug Still: [45:10] They're compacting the soil all around the tree. Paul Cook: [45:13] Exactly. Moving forward to the last couple of years, it was starting to show more signs of being stressed. Like I said, the leaves were very small. It was coming out late. The whole canopy leaves were looking sparse and very yellow. We knew what was happening above ground. We could see what was happening above ground. We wanted to see what was happening below ground. As part of the Ancient Tree Forum, we came across a lady called Sharon Hosegood, and Sharon Hosegood Associates. And she does root radar. She did a demonstration to us at Burghley House. We approached her and said, "Look, this is what's happening with The Major Oak. We would love for you to come and do some root radar of The Major Oak." I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like a pushchair, and it's got sensors, and it literally scans about 2 meters below the surface of the ground, and it can pick up roots, and you can tell that-- it picks up roots anything above 20 mm, they're roots above the size of 20 mm, it will pick those up. Doug Still: [46:34] And it's creating a digital map? Paul Cook: [46:36] And it creates a digital map of all the way around The Major Oak. You scan around as much as you can to pick up these roots. Now, with The Major Oak, we've got quite a few trees at the back of it, but it's completely open at the front. There's a nice green where people have picnics at the front. We always assumed that the roots went out as far as the branches. Wherever the drip line of the canopy of the tree was, we always assumed that's where the roots would go as well. So, we started scanning that and then went further and then we went further and further out. In fact, we went out to 40 meters from the trunk. We're back to the trunk. We walked out 40 meters and were still finding the roots of the tree. Doug Still: [47:22] Yeah. Paul Cook: [47:23] Of the oak tree. Doug Still: [47:24] But stunning the long reach that those roots have. Paul Cook: [47:27] And they were the ones that we could see. They were the ones that were 20 mm and bigger. Smaller roots were obviously going beyond that, and the fibrous roots were also going beyond that as well. So, this gave us a better understanding of what was happening below the ground. Doug Still: [47:47] What do you think is the most interesting question you've been asked at The Major Oak or in the forest? Richard Townsley: [47:55] I think that the nicest ones are all about the trees and how they're related to each other. And there's some interesting theories there, and I think a lot of people like to get into that, actually, because The Major Oak has been there so long, it's the grandmother to almost every oak tree that we can see, isn't it? Everybody locally, the first thing they say to you is, "I've been in there." They tell you as though it's only them that's ever been in. And you know they'll sigh and [unintelligible 00:48:22] "You know I've been in there, don't you?" And I'll go, "Yeah-- [unintelligible 00:48:24]. Paul Cook: [laughs] Me too. [laughter] Richard Townsley: [48:27] People go, "Yeah, before the fence was up, I used to go in this one." That brings back the stories, and often that's the nature of the visit, isn't it? It's perhaps a grandparent and family that have moved away, sometimes America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, these places, and family are revisiting. It's a trigger then for the grandparents to say, "Well, you know, we played in there." And then, the little children, great-grandchildren, and grandchildren, they then want to play in it as well. "Why can't we go in?" You have to explain, "Well, actually, as all playing in it back in the day, were hurting the tree, and now we understand that and we don't do that anymore because we want it to survive for another millennium, if possible." Doug Still: [49:12] That's the story of landmark trees everywhere. They span the generations and people have stories from when they were kids or their grandparents, and it's just been going on a lot longer in Sherwood Forest. Richard Townsley: [49:29] Yes, that's true. I've got a Facebook page of the Sheriff of Nottingham and I put regular pictures up about The Major Oak. I ran something recently when we're talking about Major Oak and the tree and just encouraging people to say, "Well, what local trees have you got?" There are Queen's Oaks, King's Oaks, Pilgrim's Oaks, Shire Oaks, these names crop up and people tell you about their trees and share pictures of them. There are lots of major oaks all over the place, certainly all over England. We just have this extra twist of the Robin Hood story, which makes it particularly special. Doug Still: [50:08] Are there any contemporary groups associated with Robin Hood that make annual visits or that you know of? Richard Townsley: [50:15] We have a number. [laughs] One of the things I like to say is that there are three Sheriffs, but there are an awful lot of Robin Hoods, and we have various Robin Hoods dotted around Nottingham. There's at least two or three in Nottingham itself. There's an official one and there's an unofficial one. There's a number of them. We have a very good group operating in and around Sherwood now called the Outlaws, and they do the outlaw side of the stories and I do the official Sheriffy side. There are lots of medieval reenactment groups and people like that. And it's a little bit odd. I've been doing historical reenactments for a very long time, but most history people are a bit sniffy about Robin Hood because it is seen as this element of fantasy and fiction and how much is true and how much is not. So, people that are devotees of Richard III or whatever are a bit, "Uh, Robin Hood is not really real history." [laughter] Richard Townsley: [51:14] Which is why I like to focus on the Sheriff because we absolutely know the Sheriff is real. We know a lot of what he did and we know a lot of other functions. I think using Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest as tales to entertain on their own right, is great. But also, that's a nice way into medieval history to talk about the kings, to talk about the forest, talk about who did what, which is really good. I've got a three-year-old granddaughter who is half Canadian, her mum's Canadian, and she wanted to meet Robin Hood. She came just before Christmas and was absolutely enthralled to meet Robin Hood. Didn't really care at all that her granddad is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Resplendent in the gear I was, but all she wanted really to do was meet Robin Hood. [music] Doug Still: [52:10] Back to Robin Hood. The King, disguised as a monk, threw Robin Hood into the mud with a huge splash and everyone laughed. The money was returned, but suddenly one of the men recognized the King, who revealed his face and in a moment of shock, all of Robin Hood's men kneeled in silence before him. The King's frown turned into a smile and with respect, pardoned the entire band. Robin Hood thought he was in the clear, but the King wasn't done. Nigel Holmes: [52:40] "You have said you would willingly serve me. I accept. You should come back to London with me, along with Little John and your cousin, Will Scarlet, and your musician, Alan-a-Dale. As for the rest of your band, we will have their names recorded as Royal Rangers. But you promised me a feast. Get it ready for I would like to see how you live in the woodlands." That night, the King lay in Sherwood Forest on a bed of green leaves. Early the next morning, he set out for Nottingham Town. Robin Hood and Little John and Will Scarlett and Alan-a-Dale shook hands with all the rest of the band, swearing they would often come to Sherwood to see them. Then, each mounted his horse and rode away with the King. [music] Doug Still: [53:35] As warden and after working so close with The Major Oak all these years, what does the tree mean to you? Paul Cook: [53:42] Well, one of the reasons why I'm working here is because of The Major Oak. My grandfather was a soldier in the Canadian Army, and he went out and fought in the Second World War and he got injured, he got a bit of shrapnel. So, he came to the UK and he was sent to the UK to recover from his injuries. And that's where he met my grandmother. My grandmother used to work in the botanical gardens. She was a gardener in the botanical gardens and obviously, he used to walk around there. Doug Still: [54:18] So, it runs in the family. Paul Cook: [54:20] Yes. So, that's where he met my grandmother. After the war, they decided to settle in the UK. He stayed in the UK, married my grandmother, and lived quite close to Sherwood Forest about 20 minutes from here. Obviously, then they had my mother. And then, I was introduced to The Major Oak when I was about four or five years old. We used to come up here every weekend, Sunday afternoon with a picnic and have a picnic on the green outside The Major Oak. I didn't know then that I would be working in Sherwood Forest. [laughter] Paul Cook: [55:04] I knew I'd be working outside in conservation. I wanted to work outside in conservation. Doug Still: [55:10] But you always remembered that. Paul Cook: [55:11] But that was the main thing I've always remembered. The time I was inside The Major Oak with my grandfather in the 1970s and then came back a good, what was that, 30 years later, to work in Sherwood Forest. So, now it's my job to actually help look after The Major Oak. Doug Still: [55:36] Yeah, and think of all those kids now. Paul Cook: [55:38] I see the same thing every day, yeah. I go to The Major Oak, and I see grandparents with their grandkids taking photographs in front of The Major Oak. So, The Major Oak has been in my life for almost all of it, the past 50 years. Doug Still: [55:58] As Sheriff, do you ever think you'll bring order to the county of Nottingham? Richard Townsley: [56:02] This is a very orderly county. Doug Still: [56:04] Oh, good. Richard Townsley: [56:04] It always has been. [laughs] Doug Still: [56:06] Well, I don't think you should be phased out. Richard Townsley: [56:09] Definitely not. We still need the Sheriff, and you can't have a Robin without a Sheriff. Doug Still: [56:19] As Richard Townsley, what does The Major Oak in Sherwood Forest mean to you? Richard Townsley: [56:24] It's just absolute part of my heritage. It's part of my personal upbringing. As I say, I've got two granddaughters, one is three others, not yet one, and I'm looking forward to bringing the second one here. I think they're not a Townsley until they've been into Sherwood until they've dressed up as Robin Hood and they've run around and we've had a picnic. So, I'm very much looking forward. Her name is Edith and she lives in Bath. We were discussing her being christened. She's going to be christened in the church in Bath, but I think for me, the christening will be when we bring her to the forest and introduce to The Major Oak. It's part of my family and my personal heritage. Doug Still: [57:04] Thank you, tree lovers, for joining me to discover The Major Oak. I'd like to thank my wonderful guests from Sherwood Forest, Paul Cook and Richard Townsley, for bringing this story alive, as well as Rob James for organizing the interviews. Special thanks to my friend, Nigel Holmes, for a spirited reading of excerpts from The Tales of Robin Hood, an edited version of Howard Pyle's book. And even more thanks to friends David Bor and Kim Wass for playing their recorders to provide the lovely early music we've heard. If you've enjoyed this show, please share it with family and friends. If you feel so moved, you can now contribute to the show via the Patreon link on the website, thisoldtree.show. Every dollar will help keep these episodes coming in the future. You can also find past episodes with show notes and transcripts. Thanks again for listening. I'm Doug Still and see you next time with This Old Tree. [music] Nigel Holmes: [58:24] In spite of Robin Hood's promise, it was many years before he saw Sherwood again. Eventually, King Richard died in battle as one might expect of a lionhearted king. After a time, Robin Hood was done with foreign wars. He came home to England and with him came Alan-a-Dale and his fair Ellen. It was springtime when they arrived with green leaves and small birds singing happily, just as they had done in fair Sherwood when Robin Hood roamed merry and free. The sweetness and joy of the time made Robin long to see the woodlands once more. So, Robin went directly to King John who had succeeded Richard the Lionheart and asked permission to visit Nottingham. His Majesty granted the wish but commanded Robin not to remain in Sherwood more than three days. So, Robin Hood and Alan-a-Dale set out for Sherwood Forest. As they approached the forest, Robin felt that he knew every stick and stone he saw. There now was a path he had often walked with Little John. Over there was the way he had gone to seek a certain friar to perform a wedding. As they rode, they shared memories of familiar places and deeds growing more wistful by the moment. At last, they came to the large clearing and the broad spreading great oak tree that had long been their home. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Katsura at Dumbarton Oaks (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 14 Published April 11, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] I've got to admit, I hadn't heard about the old Katsura tree at Dumbarton Oaks in Washington, DC. I knew that Dumbarton Oaks was an estate and museum with one of the great gardens of America, designed by Beatrix Farrand, although I'd never been there. The Katsura came to my attention when landscape architect, Ron Henderson, invited me to tag along with him early this spring to see a project, he coordinated with the top-notch horticultural staff there. Along with him and his assistant, Hans Friedl, Ron recruited a special guest from Japan named Kurato Fujimoto, a Master Gardener from Kenroku-en, one of the three great Japanese landscape gardens. Mr. Fujimoto, or Kurato as I came to know him informally, was leading a team effort to install a series of crutches and braces under the big Katsura, an indigenous Japanese propping technique to promote the long-term health of old trees and to support long, aging branches. This was not an opportunity to be missed. Tree lovers, I'd like to bring you along to Dumbarton Oaks with me, where you can join me as a fly on the garden wall, so to speak. As we go, you'll learn more about this project and meet several interesting people, like Jonathan Kavalier, the Director of Gardens and Grounds, as well as Abner Aldarondo, a humanities fellow who dug through mounds of documents and photos to research the origins of the Katsura. Best of all, you'll get to know this lovable unique tree that holds its own as an unplanned cast member of Farrand's magnificent garden. It has a bit of mystery about it that relates to the burgeoning 19th-century fascination with Japanese trees and plants. I know you'll need to go see this tree when we're done. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:22] I left my hotel early on a Monday morning to meet up with Ron, Hans, and Kurato at Dumbarton Oaks, which is in the Georgetown section of Washington. We were to meet at the guesthouse where they were being housed along the northwest edge of the garden. It was not an easy spot to get to by public transportation, so I decided to walk because it was such a beautiful day. Bad idea. Like a rookie, I thought I could cut through the US Naval Observatory area to the north of the garden but hit a dead end and had to walk all the way around. I was late. Ron texted to just walk in and around the building to the maintenance garage, where they were already hard at work with Jonathan Kavalier and the entire garden crew. I said my hellos and then started asking questions. So, Ron, what are we doing here? Ron Henderson: [03:18] Kurato Fujimoto and Marc Vedder are putting the cross piece on one of the posts. This is the first one that we're [drilling sounds] They've just countersunk the crosspiece for lag bolts to connect the crosspiece to the pole. Installing two of those and we'll also be installing two kasugai, or kind of C-shaped nails to the outside that will also help secure the crosspiece to the post. Doug Still: [04:01] They were constructing eleven poles with T-shaped struts at the top, all exactly measured according to their planned placement along selected branches of the Katsura tree. They were working off a diagram that Ron had created on-site with Kurato Fujimoto hand-drawn and ink with enfolding sketchbooks called “orihon.” Ron Henderson: [04:21] We measured the tree on Monday, a week ago. Fujimoto identified the locations for the supports, they are known as “hoozue.” And we measured the dimensions from the underside of the branch to the ground so that we know the length for all of the poles. And then, we acquired the orchard poles that we'll be using for the supports this week and now we're going to be fabricating the poles this morning, maybe into this afternoon, and then we'll be heading out to the tree to begin to install them this afternoon. It's probably two days of work. Doug Still: [05:11] Apparently, there was a bit of a scramble to find the right type of supports locally and get them to the shop in time to conduct the project, but Jonathan and the crew pulled it off. So, you got all these poles a week ago? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:25] We did. We got them on Wednesday last week. Doug Still: [05:28] And they were barked. You had to debark them? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:31] No, these were actually pressure-treated arbor poles. We sent a staff person out to Madison, Virginia, to pick them up. It was like a full-day road trip, and she came back with them in the afternoon. And then, we had to sand them down to expose the grain and remove kind of the-- Doug Still: [05:46] Make them look nicer and more interesting. Jonathan Kavalier: [05:49] Yes, exactly. Doug Still: [05:51] So, these are telephone poles? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:52] These are basically-- well, arbor poles. I guess they're used in arboriculture. These are white pine that have been pressure treated. Doug Still: [06:00] And you worked on this all Friday? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:03] Yeah. Thursday and Friday. The garden, all hands-on deck, sanding. Doug Still: [06:10] [laughs] What was your role? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:11] I was one of the sanders. Yeah. Doug Still: [06:13] You're a sander? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:13] I'm a good cheerleader. [laughter] Doug Still: [06:16] This wasn't my first experience installing hoozue, as they are known in Japanese. Kurato and Ron were retained by the Parks Department of the City of Providence a year ago to work with the Betsey Williams Sycamore, the 240-year-old tree you may remember from episode one. It has a 57-foot-long branch that stretches out at eye level, a very special feature, but it needed support. Kurato and the parks crew installed two props below it, that time using reclaimed black locust trees that have very durable wood. That's when I first met Kurato. By the way, Kurato only speaks Japanese, and none of us do. So, we communicate by using the translation feature on our phones. It works pretty well although we sometimes have some amusing mix-ups. Anyway, he and Ron had also propped a cherry tree on the campus of Penn State University several years ago and developed a relationship with the managers at the US National Arboretum in DC. The week before our Dumbarton Oaks visit, they installed hoozue for two itosakura cherry trees at the National Arboretum. Later, I paid a visit. The work is gorgeous. The technique is most associated with cherry species as well as pine, both very important to Japanese culture. In the US, you won't see tree supports very often, except perhaps in orchards to preserve productive old branches on fruit trees. In general, our practices resort primarily to pruning branches and cabling large trunks for support. Ron and Kurato would like to see propping used more often here, and they're promoting the technique wherever they can. In this case, apropos to their Japanese style of propping, this installation is for a tree native to Japan, Cercidiphyllum japonicum, a Katsura tree. But you knew you had a goal, which is the Katsura tree. Jonathan Kavalier: [08:13] Yeah. Yes, we knew we wanted to work on the Katsura tree. We think this is one of the oldest Katsura trees in the country, and we actually have a research fellow doing some work on that part of it right now. Just having met Kurato at the arboretum a couple of years ago and having a couple of years to digest what they were doing at the arboretum and more thinking about the trees here, there's a couple of other candidates here that lend themselves particularly well, I think, to this technique that we're interested in doing in the future as well. Doug Still: [08:43] I've yet to see the tree, so I can't wait. Jonathan Kavalier: [08:44] Okay, yeah, it's a great tree. Doug Still: [08:47] Obviously, I was dying to meet the tree we'd all been talking about. After another hour or so of work at the shop, I finally got the chance. Though it was Monday and the garden was closed, Jonathan ushered us into the museum's entrance lobby, then out a side door onto the grassy south lawn, the grand estate's sweeping front yard. It is largely open, framed by mature shrubs, oaks, and tulip trees, as well as a stunning grouping of cedar of Lebanon defining one edge. We walked across the entrance drive and down a short slope, and there was the Katsura along the front wall, separating the property from our street. While it isn't hidden, it isn't highlighted either, standing within its border with other trees and shrubs. But this old tree reaches out with charm and life, quite literally. The first thing you notice are the multiple trunks, thick and sort of on top of one another, emanating from nearly the same point on a wide, weighty central trunk that sort of leans out across the expanse of lawn. Eight or nine twisting, undulating branches make the tree look as if it were about to wriggle to a new spot. One of them lays right on the ground. There are numerous cavities at the base of most branches and at the trunk, the tree is showing its age. Almost every branch was pruned at the end, making it look somewhat amputated, a result of die back at its outer reaches. But wispy new sprouts surround each cut. There, I picked up my conversation with Jonathan and Ron. And does this tree have a name? Jonathan Kavalier: [10:29] We refer to it as “The Katsura” even though there's more than one Katsura tree here. Actually, behind you is the other Katsura that Farrand added. When Beatrix Farrand came to design this garden, this Katsura tree was here, and she worked her design around it. So, it's a pretty iconic tree for us. Doug Still: [10:47] It's fantastic. What's your guess on how old this tree is? Jonathan Kavalier: [10:52] We're working on that now. We think it was planted probably in the last decade of the 1800s, but we're not 100% sure yet. We're still working on that. We have a research fellow named Abner Aldarondo that is working on that very question. Doug Still: [11:09] How would you describe this tree? Just looking at it. Jonathan Kavalier: [11:15] To me, it's like an octopus, kind of. It's crawling out onto the lawn. It's situated along what we call the R Street border, which is a little narrow brick path that leads around the interior perimeter wall of the front entrance of the garden. And this tree just kind of climbs out into the east lawn, which is a large expanse of lawn. Doug Still: [11:38] Yep. There's no escaping it. The tree looks like an octopus. I try not to anthropomorphize trees too much, although as human beings, we naturally all tend to do it. In this case, however, we get to octopomorphize it? Yeah. This one branch in particular that's coming, follows the ground. Ron Henderson: [11:59] Mm. is it a root or is it a branch? Almost- Doug Still: [12:04] Hard to tell the difference. Jonathan Kavalier: [12:05] Yeah. So, two branches. Rego, one of our crew leaders, who's been here 35 years, remembers when that branch was much longer and had foliage on it. And even this second branch that's only a couple of feet off the ground, used to come out much further and had another upright coming off of it. Doug Still: [12:25] So, was there a point where that branch was off the ground? Jonathan Kavalier: [12:28] I don't know. I've only been here five years. [laughter] Doug Still: [12:32] Right. Ron Henderson: [12:33] It's interesting that you call it “The Octopus tree” because Kurato Fujimoto, the Japanese master gardener that we're working with to conserve the tree, calls it “Tako no Katsura no Ki,” which is the Octopus Katsura tree. Doug Still: [12:50] Yeah. We're obviously about to start work, so we hear chainsaws in the background and vehicles and lots of workers here. [music] Don't worry. Those saws were only there for fine-tuning the size of the poles before installation. But we'll use this moment to take a break. When we return, we'll learn more about how these supports benefit trees and theories on how The Octopus Katsura was planted at Dumbarton Oaks in the 19th century. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Tako no Katsura no Ki, or in English, The Octopus Katsura. That has a nice ring to it. We'll see if it sticks. But back to the day's mission. So, what's the goal of our project today and tomorrow? Jonathan Kavalier: [13:56] Do you want to explain that, Ron? Ron Henderson: [13:58] The goal is to situate the conservation of this approximately 130-, 140-year-old tree with a series of supports that are being installed in the tradition of the Japanese techniques which both support and prop branches that may be in danger of some kind of physical damage because these are incredibly low horizontal branches with a lot of very long fulcrum lengths. But also, the situation and the positioning of the poles known as hoozue or a “chin cane,” like when you put your palm under your chin on a table, that kind of support. Doug Still: [14:55] So, it's hoozue? Ron Henderson: [14:56] Hoozue. Doug Still: [14:57] H-O-O-Z-U-E. Ron Henderson: [15:00] That's right. H-O-O-Z-U-E. And most of these poles will be put toward the ends of the branches and that will support growth at the extremities of the branches, which will then produce more branches and more leaves, which will then be able to bring energy back into the tree. So, the conservation process is both structural support as well as promotion of new growth at the extremities. Jonathan Kavalier: [15:34] What really is interesting to me, the difference in approach between the Japanese approach and our Western approach, and learning about Fujimoto's technique, it's just such a different perspective in how we look at the trees. And in Western culture, we're looking at the crown of the tree, we're doing a lot of retrenching, we're doing a lot of heading back and trying to promote growth from within. From the Japanese perspective, they're looking at the branch tips as being the most active points of growth and so trying to keep the growth there and give it the support that it needs in order to keep the growth there. It's just a completely different approach than we use in Western culture. Doug Still: [16:15] And it seems with this particular tree, most of the branch tips have been cut back in the past. Almost all of them, from the top to the bottom. Jonathan Kavalier: [16:24] Right. That's likely in response to die back and that's how you would typically handle a tree according to ISA standards, is you would prune back your deadwood and try and make heading back cuts and produce lateral branching, which you can see. This has been done over the years. This particular tree, Katsura don't compartmentalize, as well as other trees, as hardwoods and so every time you're making pruning cuts, you're potentially opening yourself up to a decay situation and so especially--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [16:58] Especially cuts this large. Ron Henderson: [17:00] Right. Jonathan Kavalier: [17:02] Yeah, it's just a completely opposite perspective, which is really interesting. Doug Still: [17:06] Has there been a lot of research on-- or comparative research I should say? Ron Henderson: [17:13] There isn't a lot of research that's been done through the lens of Western arboricultural or horticultural science to look at the performance of the Japanese technique. Of course, the evidence of the Japanese technique is trees that are 1000 years old that have been supported in this manner. Doug Still: [17:39] Right, the proof is in the pudding. Jonathan Kavalier: [17:41] Right. Ron Henderson: [17:42] The proof is in the pudding. Doug Still: [17:44] Jonathan had mentioned that this is one of the oldest Katsura trees in the country. And we got on to talking about who planted it, where they got it, and when. Beatrix Farrand started her work here in the 1920s, hired by Robert Woods Bliss and his wife, Mildred. It was Mrs. Bliss that Farrand collaborated closely for decades. A partnership that developed the garden into what we see today. More on that later. But by the 1920s, this Katsura was already a mature tree. Jonathan Kavalier: [18:15] For us, the goal is to keep this tree here because it's one of the few really old trees left on the property and it helps tell a really interesting story about this property pre-Bliss. Because we always talk about Bliss and Beatrix Farrand here and there's a lot of history before Bliss and Farrand and we're starting to dig into that. We have some fellows that are looking into enslaved labor practices here pre-Bliss. So, it's just neat to kind of round that out with some of the horticultural knowledge of some of these trees, where they came from, when they were planted? And then, do our best to keep them here for another 100 years plus. Doug Still: [18:57] According to Jonathan, it is a mystery as to exactly when the octopus Katsura was planted. Katsura, along with many other plants from Japan, can trace their introduction to North America to the mid-19th century. In the fall of 1868, the new Meiji Restoration ended Shogunate rule, opening the doors for interaction with the West in the rest of the world. Through certain diplomatic figures, this led to an almost immediate botanical interest in sharing Japanese trees and plants, mostly in the form of seeds. Ron Henderson: [19:32] Yeah, and if you look at it within larger historical patterns, Perry's ships arrived in Japan in the 1860s. So, within clearly 30 years or so, this tree was already here. That nursery trade must have been one of the most advanced or first things that began to be imported from Japan, all these amazing plants that we all know now, including the Katsura. Doug Still: [20:10] Was Washington DC a center of that early nursery trade just because it was our nation's capital perhaps? Ron Henderson: [20:19] Well, they're certainly the center, the seed of diplomatic envoys who may have been either supporting or promoting or funding that kind of trade. Or maybe a few snuck a few seeds in their diplomatic pouches as they headed back, perhaps. [laughs] Jonathan Kavalier: [20:38] Yeah, it would make sense. Doug Still: [20:42] The Arnold Arboretum in Boston has a wonderful Katsura tree in their collection dated to 1878 and I had to go view it this past weekend when I was in Boston. It has precise documentation. Seeds were sent by an American from Massachusetts named William Clark, who was invited by the Japanese government in 1876 to assist in the establishment of Sapporo Agricultural College, now Hokkaido University. Is it possible that the Dumbarton Oaks Katsura was planted earlier? If so, there was only a slim 10 years or so when seeds could have been shipped, germinated, and grown in a nursery and planted. Would some targeted research uncover the answer? I had the pleasure of being introduced to Abner Aldarondo, a humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks and a recent grad of Amherst College. He had been digging deep in the files within the research library. What is your name and what's your role here? Abner Aldarondo: [21:43] Yeah, my name is Abner Aldarondo, and I'm a humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks. Doug Still: [21:47] And where are we right now? Abner Aldarondo: [21:49] Right now, we are on the third floor of the main house, right by publications. Doug Still: [21:55] And how many of you are there up here? Abner Aldarondo: [00:21:58] Yeah, for humanities fellows at least, there's five of us total. And then there's an intern who's doing like an exchange program, and then there's the publication folks in the cubicles right there. Doug Still: [22:16] So, you're a humanities fellow? Abner Aldarondo: [22:17] Yes. Doug Still: [22:18] Could you describe what that is? Abner Aldarondo: [22:20] Yeah, humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks typically have graduated within the past two years from undergrad, and I graduated from Amherst College, where I studied Spanish and Latinx and American studies. Doug Still: [22:36] And are you all doing the same type of project or all different types of projects? Abner Aldarondo: [22:40] All of us are doing pretty different kinds of projects, yeah. Doug Still: [22:44] And what's your project? Abner Aldarondo: [00:22:44] Yeah, I'm working on two. So, one are tree biographies, essentially. Doug Still: [22:52] Tree biographies? Abner Aldarondo: [22:53] Yes. Doug Still: [22:54] I love it. Abner Aldarondo: [22:55] Much like what you're doing, right? [laughs] Doug Still: [00:22:56] Yeah, that's right. [laughs] Abner Aldarondo: [22:57] Yeah so, basically just taking stock of this oldest tree on the property and then giving some horticultural information, some of the specific tree history behind them. And yeah, stuff like that. Doug Still: [23:13] Did you ever think you were going to be a tree biographer? Abner Aldarondo: [23:16] [laughs] No, I did not. No. Doug Still: [23:19] [laughs] I didn't either. [laughter] Abner Aldarondo: [23:21] No, it's for sure. Doug Still: [23:23] We got right into it. When did the first Katsura seeds come to the US? Abner Aldarondo: [23:28] It was introduced in the US 1864,1865. Though this isn't a true introduction because Thomas Hogg, Jr.-- That says Hoggs, but supposed to say Hogg. Thomas Hogg, he wrote this letter and this like monthly gardeners-- what do you call it like a magazine, like some sort of like thing-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [23:52] Sure. A journal? Abner Aldarondo: [23:53] Yeah, journal. It was a journal, exactly. Doug Still: [23:54] And who was he? Abner Aldarondo: [23:58] He was part of this family, the Hogg Family, and they had their own nursery. His dad established the New York Horticultural Society in 18-- I believe it was 1822. Doug Still: [24:10] The Hogg family, originally from Scotland, were well connected and owned a florist and nursery business in Manhattan, first at 23rd Street and Broadway and later at 79th Street at the East River. They played a prominent role in the horticultural life of New York City and in fact, the entire Northeast. Abner learned about Hogg and other early influencers in a fascinating research article written in 2017 by Peter Del Tredici in the Botanical Review, the journal of the New York Botanical Garden. Its title is The Introduction of Japanese Plants into North America. Abner Aldarondo: [24:48] Abraham Lincoln appoints Thomas Hogg, Jr. to the Japanese Consulate in Kanagawa, and he was there until 1869, but he does return a few years later. Doug Still: [24:57] Interesting. Why do you think he was appointed to the Japanese consulate? Abner Aldarondo: [25:01] I honestly don't have much an idea as to why he was appointed. Doug Still: [25:06] And that's an interesting year right in the middle of the Civil War. Abner Aldarondo: [25:10] Yeah. Doug Still: [25:11] Thomas Hogg must have been like, "Fine, I'm out of here because way too much going on here." Abner Aldarondo: [25:17] Yeah, "I don't want to deal with this right now." [laughter] Doug Still: [25:20] The appointment of Thomas Hogg, Jr., as US Marshal to the Japanese consulate was a big deal because despite the Civil War here in America, our government was trying to open diplomatic relations with Japan. Commodore Perry had already made inroads with the Treaty of Kanagawa in 1854, and horticulturalists and agriculturalists were always part of these missions. Del Tredici also writes of another man, Dr. George Rogers Hall, who was in East Asia and was sending seeds and plants back to the US as early as 1862, specifically to a nursery in Flushing, New York, owned by Samuel Parsons. No mention of Katsura in the records though. But back to Thomas Hogg, Jr., in the public letter he wrote. Abner Aldarondo: [26:06] This year, there's a little funny story behind that bit right there, 1864 and 1865, because I was just telling you, he wrote to his journal, and basically this other person said that they introduced Katsura tree to North America. Doug Still: [26:25] That person was Charles Sprague Sargent, the first director of the Arnold Arboretum. Abner Aldarondo: [26:32] That they were the one who introduced it. He was like, "No, actually, I was the one who introduced Katsura." And this is why it's 1864 or 1865 because he doesn't even know when he sent these seeds to his brother. Doug Still: [26:44] I see. So, there's documentation that in 1864,1865, he claims, "I brought Katsura tree seeds to the US." Abner Aldarondo: [26:55] He mailed them to his brother. Doug Still: [26:57] Okay, so they were in the form of seeds. Abner Aldarondo: [26:59] In the form of seeds. He was like, Yeah, if you go to my brother's garden, you'll see that there are Katsuras there." Doug Still: [27:07] Thomas's brother, James Hogg, was also a horticulturist, and he had a private garden at 84th Street at the East River. It obviously no longer exists. Here's how Del Tredici describes Hogg's point of view, and I quote, "The only articles that Hogg himself published about his Japanese plant collecting activities appeared in 1879, four years after he returned home. Hogg was motivated to write these articles to correct an erroneous statement by Professor C. S. Sargent of the Arnold Arboretum that credited William S. Clark of the Massachusetts Agricultural College for introducing Cercidiphyllum japonicum, Sciadopitys verticillata, and Schizophragma hydrangeoides--", oof, "into North America. Hogg emphatically refuted Sargent's statement by noting that he had sent all three of these species to his brother in the 1860s, well before Clark arrived in Japan. Well, if anyone truly cares about who brought the first Katsura seeds to the US. Looks like we have a controversy. Could James Hogg's garden be where the first Katsura was germinated and planted? Maybe. And it's unclear that any of the plants Hogg sent back were ever sold, but it's possible that some of the seeds also made it over to Parsons Nursery in Flushing. Abner Aldarondo: [28:30] Mm-hmm. Samuel Parsons Nursery. Yeah. Then, it starts to make an appearance in 1874 at Parsons. There's mention of the Katsura tree, though if I recall, it's not called Katsura. It's called the Japanese Judas Tree. Doug Still: [00:28:47] Abner also found a reference of Cercidiphyllum japonicum making an appearance at the Vienna World's Fair in 1873. So, it was at the World's Fair in Vienna in 1873. It was in Parson's Nursery by 1873. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:05] Yeah, by '74. Doug Still: [00:29:07] Was that an offering for sale? Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:09] Yes, offering for sale. Doug Still: [00:29:10] So, they received it prior? Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:12] They definitely received it prior, yeah. Doug Still: [29:14] Growing it for a few years. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:16] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doug Still: [00:29:18] Well, we were hoping to find some evidence that showed that the owner of Dunbarton Oaks in the 1860s, Edward Linthicum, purchased and planted a Katsura tree before his death in 1869. Actually, the estate was known as just the Oaks at that time. With his gardener, J. H. Small, Linthicum purchased plants from Joshua Pierce, who owned Linnaean Hill in Washington, DC. I wonder if there are any letters from Hogg to Joshua Pierce just to show that they worked with each other. Abner Aldarondo: [29:53] Yeah. Doug Still: [29:55] It wouldn't surprise me if they knew each other. I bet it was a small world. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:59] Oh, for sure. Doug Still: [30:02] [laughs] I had a follow-up conversation with Abner after he did some further sleuthing, and unfortunately, we weren't able to find any documentation for Linthicum acquisitions or Linnaean Hill sales. Abner searched high and low. But overall, he did find that the Katsura tree was beginning to circulate around the East Coast in the 1860s and early 70s in multiple ways, and horticultural networks were tied together. But our guesses, it seems, will need to remain conjecture. So, this is a fun mystery. It could have been planted within, say, a 30-year span. Abner Aldarondo: [30:46] Yeah, totally. [laughter] Doug Still: [30:48] I think for most people, that would be good enough. But we're tree biographers, and we've got to know. Abner Aldarondo: [00:30:55] Yeah, we've got to know exactly when this tree was planted. [laughs] Doug Still: [00:30:58] That's right. After I met with Abner, I was treated to a tour of the famous Dumbarton Oaks Garden. Whoa. Even in March, it is stunning. It is after all, the gravitational force that makes this a world-class site and brings tens of thousands of visitors each year. Without understanding it, we don't completely understand the symbiotic importance of the octopus Katsura. After the break, I chat more with Ron Henderson to get a sense of Beatrix Farrand's vision. [music] Ron Henderson: [31:40] Beatrix Farrand was a woman who grew up on the East Coast in a fairly literary and, one could say, slightly wealthy family and situation. Doug Still: [00:31:53] She was upper crust, right. Ron Henderson: [00:31:55] Yes. She's the niece of Edith Wharton, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author who wrote about the Gilded Age. So, she certainly was exposed to that group of people and then she was also involved with several universities. Her husband, Max, was a professor and the first director of the Huntington Library. So, she grew up in quite literary and educated friends and family. Doug Still: [00:32:32] How would you describe her aesthetic and what were her influences? Ron Henderson: [00:32:36] I think she came into landscape architecture or what she may be preferred to call landscape gardening through plants. I would say her early mentor was Robert Sprague Sargent from the Arnold Arboretum in Boston and affiliated, of course, with Harvard. Her work was largely launched through estate work because, in part, women were not leading landscape architecture offices at that time in America's history or anywhere in the world. As her skills and reputation began to grew really through a remarkable circle of clients and friends and family, she was able to extend her work beyond estates to college campuses and other institutions, from the National Cathedral to the White House. Her work kind of grows out of, I think, a really kind of remarkable understanding of plants and the orchestration of space across topographical changes. At Dumbarton Oaks, it's particularly strong. The house of Dumbarton Oaks sits up on a ridge. So, her work is largely to the north and to the east of the main house. So, kind of away from the south lawn and away from the Katsura. And her work negotiated a fairly steeply sloping site with a series of terraced gardens that step down the hill. As the slope gets a little more steep, the walls become further apart. And one could say even the garden transitions from something that's highly cultivated, such as a rose garden, to the wildness of Cherry Hill at the back and then all the way down into Rock Creek, which was more of, one would say, a more naturalized garden that was originally part of her work as well. Doug Still: [00:35:01] Yeah, it just sort of blends into and becomes woodland almost around the edges. Ron Henderson: [00:35:07] It is, and it does. So, it's a kind of classic garden strategy of building a series of garden rooms. Hers are incredibly deftly organized around the topography. The north lawn, the space is kind of telescope in narrowness until you get at the very end of the north vista overlooking that wilder valley. So, I think there's a lot of spatial innovation and allegorical and commemorative aspects of the garden in tablets and sculpture and fountains, but largely in a way that we might expect gardens to transition from being more formal, nearer to the house, to wilder, further away from the house, as well as I said, this really, really accomplished sense of terracing. Doug Still: [00:36:12] I love the sense of scale walking through those rooms and how your eye is taken in different directions depending on where you're standing and where you're moving. But she definitely shapes your experience that way and what you see and what the views. Ron Henderson: [00:36:32] She does, and I think there's some unexpected vistas that come from that kind of stacking or layering of these spaces. Doug Still: [00:36:44] What I felt walking through the garden for the first time and that was the first time I'd ever been there, was that there was a cohesive sense of whole and it didn't seem like there were specimens that were highlighted. Maybe a few, maybe the European beech or some of the others. But for the most part, it was a broader vision than a collection of plants per se. Ron Henderson: [00:37:10] Yeah, I totally agree. Although she was a consummate designer of landscapes with plants, there are very few instances where a specimen is the focus of a garden room. Like you said, the European beech is one of those. Otherwise, she was quite effective in working with plant mass, often of the same genus, maybe sometimes even the same species. Things like Cherry Hill, which was in its splendor just as were finishing the work on the Katsura tree, was a plant-based room in the garden, but it was of multiple specimens, not a single specimen. And then, things like the mass planting in the Forsythia Dell or other locations in the garden where she's using plant mass or kind of plant typology. So, there's the rose garden and there is the perennial garden and there is the potager. There are a series of rooms that are plant-based but rarely are those based on a single specimen. Doug Still: [00:38:35] But when just getting started in 1922, Beatrix Farrand found an unusual single specimen on the south lawn. And in likely coordination with Mrs. Bliss, she let the mature Katsura remain just as it was. Almost. She did plant the Katsura across the lawn so that it wouldn't be alone and had a matching pair across the lawn. Ron Henderson: [00:39:00] That is true. It's kind of interesting how potent that is now to be able to have that dialogue of two trees of the same species kind of talking to each other across the space. Doug Still: [00:39:18] And their branches really do sort of extend towards each other, don't they? Ron Henderson: [00:39:23] They do. I think Mildred Bliss also deserves a lot of recognition in this entire enterprise. She wrote, and I quote, "Gardens have their place in the humanist order of life. Trees are noble elements to be protected by successive generations, and are not to be neglected or lightly destroyed." Doug Still: [00:39:53] I think it's wonderful that the people now at Dumbarton Oaks were willing to bring this Japanese technique to the tree. It's not an aesthetic you see in the garden now or very many places in the United States at all. But it just seems right for this old Katsura tree. Ron Henderson: [00:40:17] It does seem right. The specific technique and proportioning of the supports and the manner in which the crosspieces that support the branches are scaled, the way that the branches are wrapped to protect themselves, to protect them from the branches, and the way, of course, that the rope is lashed in order to secure the branch and the support together, that expert technique is not common at all. So, it's been a real joyful enterprise to spend some time working to conserve the Dumbarton Oaks Katsura tree. Doug Still: [00:41:16] On the second day of the project, Kurato Fujimoto gave a short presentation to fellow staff and other invited guests in front of the Tako no Katsura noki with translation help from Hans. Hans Friedl: [41:29] Want to thank everybody for being here. Thank Dumbarton Oaks for letting us be here. Thank you staff that we've been working with. It's been so much fun. Okay, yeah. Kurato Fujimoto [41:45] [foreign language] Hans Friedl: [00:42:21] My name is Kurato Fujimoto. I'm a master gardener (and I am not Kurato Fujimoto). [laughter] Quick second. My name is Hans Friedl. I am from Chicago. I am a [unintelligible 00:42:32] student at the Illinois Institute of Technology. I also was just lucky enough to receive the Hope Goddard Iselin fellowship in public horticulture to help support this work and some of the ongoing research that Ron is talking about. But I'm going to go back to being Kurato now. So, 10 years ago, I was invited to help preserve and support a large maple tree at Penn State University. What I learned there is that there are many trees in America that need support. Bye. Doug Still: [00:43:02] While there, I cornered Thomas Cummins, the Director of Dumbarton Oaks, which altogether is a Harvard University research institute, library, and museum, as well as a garden. He was kind enough to let me ask him what he thought about this tree. How important is this tree to Dumbarton Oaks, the Katsura tree? Thomas Cummins: [00:43:24] Well, again, I'm not the expert on this, but this is one of our oldest trees, if not a tree that precedes by far Dumbarton Oaks as a Harvard entity and even before the Blisses created Dumbarton Oaks. It is one of those landmark pieces that belongs to Dumbarton Oaks. That's how important it is. [laughs] Doug Still: [00:43:54] When do you think it was planted? Thomas Cummins: [00:43:57] We're doing the dating now, and it's not clear. Thaïsa Way, who is working with one of our interns to get-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [00:44:10] I've been speaking to Abner about it too. I just wondered if you had an opinion to it. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:14] No, I don't. I go with what they say. They tell me. I just work here. Doug Still: [00:44:19] Yeah. [laughter] Thomas Cummins: [00:44:21] I love these trees though. I mean, they're just spectacular. Doug Still: [00:44:24] Yeah, it's one of my favorite trees. That beautiful heart-shaped leaf. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:29] And it is just-- I don't know, the way that-- I've always watched it because I walk with my dog here- Doug Still: [00:44:37] Yes. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:37] -around. We always walk around, and I always just marvel at the tensile strength of something like this. It just holds itself. Doug Still: [00:44:47] Right. It seems to be propping itself up with these branches right on the ground. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:51] Yeah. Doug Still: [00:44:52] Do you call it the octopus tree? Thomas Cummins: [00:44:55] I don't. [laughter] Doug Still: [00:44:58] We're trying to start a trend. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:59] I will if you want. [laughter] Doug Still: [00:45:06] All right. That sounds promising. The octopus Katsura is clearly in excellent hands at Dumbarton Oaks. Everyone I met, from top to bottom, is super talented and also extremely friendly and welcoming, I have to say. Thanks for your hospitality. And you should see the tree now, decked out in its Hoozue. It is somehow even more stunning than before if that's possible. And we're going to see it thrive. I'll be posting pictures. I'd like to give my thanks to Ron Henderson, Kurato Fujimoto, Hans Friedl, Jonathan Kavalier, and Abner Aldarondo for appearing on the show and for teaching me about Katsura. And, listeners, thank you for tagging along with me on this garden journey. I really appreciate each and every one of you. I hope you'll join me again in a couple of weeks. I'll give you a teaser. The Katsura at Dumbarton Oaks wasn't the only story I got out of my trip to Washington, DC. So, stay tuned. I'm Doug Still, and you've been listening to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Birthing Tree (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 11 Published February 27, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. This Old Tree with Doug Still
Guarding the Cedars: Gilgamesh, and John Perlin’s “A Forest Journey” (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 10 Published February 13, 2023 Gilgamesh reading: [00:05] Gilgamesh seated himself on his throne. In the street of Uruk the City, the crowd was sitting before him. Thus, Gilgamesh spoke to the elders of Uruk the City. "Hear me, O Elders of Uruk the City. I would tread the path to ferocious Humbaba. I would see the God of whom men talk, whose name the lands do constantly repeat. I will conquer him in the forest of cedar. Let the land learn Uruk's offshoot is mighty. Let me start out, I will cut down the cedar. I will establish forever a name eternal!" Doug Still: [00:49] That is a passage from The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Sumerian myth from the third and second millennium BC. The story takes place in ancient Mesopotamia, and it's the earliest piece of literature to have been recovered anywhere. I know what you're thinking. What does this have to do with our show? It turns out that trees play a central role in this tale. Will Gilgamesh, the King of Uruk, succeed in killing Humbaba, God's fearsome guardian of the sacred forest? Will he cut down all the cedars? If he does, will he be a hero? Or will there be tragic consequences to pay? What will be left, and what will it mean for his kingdom? These themes can be found in John Perlin's newly republished book, A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization. Trees and the abundance of wood have been an overlooked driver of the rise and the fall of the world's great societies. Perlin highlights the Gilgamesh story. In fact, his title A Forest Journey is from the epic. But his fascinating, wide-ranging book investigates the patterns of wood consumption and depletion across the globe and throughout history. Forest conservation has great implications for the fight against the climate crisis, and therefore our survival. So, why are we so bad at it? John Perlin is here with me today to talk about his book about trees and civilization and the story of Gilgamesh and the Cedar Forest. I'm Doug Still and welcome to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:41] John Perlin is an intellectual, author, and historian who currently serves as visiting scholar within the Department of Physics at the University of California at Santa Barbara, where he lives. He's written three books on the history of solar energy, and with David Kennard, he co-wrote the documentary, The Power of the Sun. He also wrote A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization. It was first printed in 1989 when it won all sorts of accolades. It was chosen as Book of the Year by the Chicago Geographical Society and a classic in science and world history by the Harvard University Press. The very impressive new edition is available now through Patagonia Press, soon to be available everywhere. But at the start of our interview and before I could even welcome John to the show, he was often running. Keeping up with the workings of John's mind is like holding back the great deluge. John Perlin: [03:37] What happened was after 1989, so much has happened in forestry and so many new discoveries that Patagonia let me run, as I was telling you earlier, with all this new information that I was gathering. It began 385 million years ago with the first true tree. This is what I call This Old Tree, right? Doug Still: [04:03] Yeah. Archaeopteris. John Perlin: [04:05] Archaeopteris, which because there was one land mass, there was only one land mass called Gondwanaland, it easily spread throughout the entire terrestrial world. It helped initiate the great drawdown of CO2 and the great increase in oxygen, which made our living earth for large terrestrial creatures. So, wherever you find Archaeopteris, you usually find fossils of the first four-legged creatures. Doug Still: [04:41] John and I met on a previous call when we must have talked for over an hour. That's when he first told me about Archaeopteris, the first real tree and now the topic of the first chapter in the revised edition of his book. He excitedly showed me fossils of Archaeopteris, from Pennsylvania that he had in his collection. They were really cool. Well, I appreciated seeing the fossils of Archaeopteris that you sent me via email. John Perlin: [05:06] It was amazing. I spent like two weeks every day digging. The reason why that site is so good is because the Department of Transportation of Pennsylvania had widened the road. So, they made a cut, it turned out, into this ancient lake and all this Archaeopteris material and ancillary animals like fish deposited slowly in the bottom of the lake. What I really discovered is you have these two events juxtaposed to each other that really tells us about the value of trees, is the one is the Archaeopteris story. Doug Still: [05:50] Yes. John Perlin: [05:51] And then the End-Permian extinction, where the two factors of the extinction when we almost lost life both on land and sea, was increased CO2 and increased deforestation are the two factors that caused this catastrophic event. Doug Still: [06:12] Before getting to the meat of his book, I had a random question. I know from our previous conversations and what you've been telling me now, that you've traveled the world to bolster your research. When I was searching online, I saw a quick mention about a surfboard in one of your bios. John Perlin: [06:31] All right. I brought the first surfboard to Israel. Doug Still: [06:35] [laughs] In addition to reading ancient texts and drawing connections between world cultures through the history of science, are you also a surfer? John Perlin: [06:44] Yeah. You have to understand, I grew up in Southern California, and when I was 11, I did my first surfing in Baja. One of the perks of being at the University of California, Santa Barbara as an undergraduate is they have some of the best waves in the world. Doug Still: [07:04] Yeah, you were living the life. John Perlin: [07:06] But also learning how to write science at the same time. Doug Still: [07:12] Well, I greatly enjoyed reading the book. Its content has a huge reach. Combined with the fact that parts of your book are about ancient history and also about forestry, well, I just gobbled it up. John Perlin: [07:25] Well, forestry played such a role. The only reason Greece initially was interested in Rome, for example, was because of its vast woodlands, which actually caused an Italian friend of mine to just laugh for about, like, an hour, because there aren't any trees where the big forests in Rome that fed the war machines of Greece, for example. Doug Still: [07:52] The book is basically a comprehensive history of how forests have shaped human life and civilization, specifically the exploitation of forests. John Perlin: [08:00] Well, let me interrupt you. Also, this was for me the aha moment, was few people realize the role forests play in past civilizations as far as their development, because you would have no Middle Ages if there wasn't wood fuel. Even in the neanderthal, when they developed wood handles for their tools, was a great revolution. Then, think of the ships that most of the cargo to this day is transported in. Until, what was it, 1861, 1862 with Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimack, ships were all wood. Doug Still: [08:49] Well, your methods of examination are a combination of scientific studies, art, oral histories, and sometimes millennial old literature. That's what's going to bring us to the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is- [crosstalk] John Perlin: [09:04] Ah-ha. Doug Still: [09:04] -one of my high-time interests here but we're going to get back to that. I'd like to take a look at what I thought were the three key ideas in your book. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. [laughs] John Perlin: [00:09:17] Okay. Doug Still: [09:18] First off, as you were just saying, trees have been a principal fuel and building material for just about every society over the millennia. And we kind of knew this but your point is that it's an under-appreciated fact. John Perlin: [09:31] Correct. Well, sometimes what's most recognizable, people don't see. In fact, I gave several lectures at Oxford on A Forest Journey, and I went to the Ashmolean Museum, which is the gem of Oxford, and they showed all the artifacts that could have never happened without wood, but they never show the wood or its derivative, charcoal. Doug Still: [10:04] Right. John Perlin: [10:05] But what I'd like to emphasize is that it was just looking at me, staring at me, and I didn't understand why nobody had gone into it. Doug Still: [10:15] It's one of the basics of society. John Perlin: [10:18] Yeah. Just like back in Greece, say, you could not transport anything without amphorae, and you couldn't have amphorae without heat, and you couldn't have heat without wood fire. Doug Still: [10:37] Homes, public buildings, even if the buildings were marble or stone or brick, the structures, scaffolding, they needed wood. John Perlin: [10:45] Well, not only that but just think on that point right there. You couldn't have like-- I was seeing that the other day, an aqueduct is made primarily of stone, but you had to-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [10:56] To form it. John Perlin: [10:57] You had to paste the-- I guess you had to put the stones together and you required lime, and that lime required to be removed from limestone, which required a tremendous amount of wood fuel. Doug Still: [11:14] Yeah. And the list goes on and on. To create bronze or create weapons, you needed heat. Glass, pottery, ships. I think you made this point, even currency to make coins. John Perlin: [11:28] Yeah. For example, the mines of Laurion, which financed the building of the ships that defeated the Persians at [unintelligible 00:11:37]. If they didn't have wood fuel to turn the silver ore into silver, we would all be speaking Persian. Doug Still: [11:52] After the break, more from John Perlin and how forests shaped human civilization. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Gilgamesh reading: [12:09] Find the table box of cedar, release its clasp of bronze, lift the lid of its secret, pick up the tablet of lapis lazuli, and read out the travails of Gilgamesh, all that he went through. Gilgamesh, so tall, magnificent, and terrible, who opened passes in the mountains, dug wells on the slopes of the uplands, and crossed the ocean, the wide sea, to the sunrise. Doug Still: [12:43] Which brings us to idea number two. John Perlin: [12:45] Okay, glad to do that. Doug Still: [12:48] [laughs] As civilizations grow, forests recede. John Perlin: [12:52] Well, yeah, that's straight out of the Bible. I mean, it's in Isaiah where Isaiah talks about how Sargon the Great has been killed. Isaiah takes the-- Oh, you might say, the personification of a tree, and says how happy he is and his fellow trees are, that you don't have civilization coming in. I'm just showing you things I never knew before. Did you know that because of the great forest in the Middle East at that time, there was a plethora of, say, elephants? So, you have all these-- what do they call, stele bragging about how many elephants I killed. But what really sealed the deal was they found bones of ancient elephants in Northern Syria. Doug Still: [13:48] And their habitat was eliminated. John Perlin: [13:51] Yes, so that's another part, just to add to it, is when you eliminate the forest, you eliminate the habitat. Doug Still: [13:58] You quoted Ovid when you were talking about forest receding and civilization. Do you remember that quote? John Perlin: [14:04] Oh, yeah. He said that basically, oh, "The pine sails away when we reach the Iron Age." Doug Still: [14:15] [laughs] I have it here. "Even the pine tree stood on its own very hills. But when civilization took over, the mountain oak, the pine were felled." John Perlin: [14:25] Yeah. Also, Lucretius says the same thing where he talks about how he watches almost all the trees running up the hills as they remove them. This is an issue too for vineyards. Cicero was really angry because he said, "I would rather see no drink in Rome than to lose all our great oaks for the grapevines." Doug Still: [14:55] Which brings me to point number three. John Perlin: [14:57] Okay. Doug Still: [14:58] As forests recede, civilizations recede, or at least they enter a stage of a crisis-- John Perlin: [15:06] Or they enter-- or I would like to add too to be accurate, we find-- sometimes, like England and like the United States, they made the leap from wood to fossil fuels. But we know that does not bode well either. Doug Still: [15:24] Yeah. If there's a crisis, then whatever society we're talking about has some options, I guess. Either territorial expansion, the Romans were a really good example of that and the movement into Gaul and Germania. John Perlin: [15:41] Well, just to add, remember, the Greeks actually did the first where they moved into Sicily for the wood. Magna Graecia. Doug Still: [15:50] So, that would be depending on how you term it, expansion or movement of peoples or at least a portion of them. John Perlin: [15:57] Just to interrupt you. Also, the whole movement from England to North America. Doug Still: [16:04] Yeah, absolutely. Or it could be collapse. Some societies just didn't make it and they were absorbed by a neighbor. John Perlin: [16:12] Totally correct. That's what happened with Greece, as Greece became dependent on wood from Sicily and Rome. Doug Still: [16:22] Well, I know it's all very complicated, and there are many different forces - climate change, food, the need for silver or gold or slaves or whatever. But the wood, the forest is an underappreciated reason for explanation. John Perlin: [16:40] You serve like my shill because you take the slave trade. I went to a conference on iron and slavery at UCLA. And I learned from there that Africa, unlike what we learned in the history of books, was not dark Africa. They actually developed steel 1000 years before the Europeans. They, to produce iron, really deforest. What happened was about the 16th century or 17th century, iron meant power. Weapons. If you had iron weapons, you could like really kick ass. Doug Still: [17:28] Right. You can go get somebody else's forest. John Perlin: [17:30] Exactly. They started running out of fuel, meaning trees, in parts of Africa. So, they started trading people for iron from Sweden. Doug Still: [17:44] Yeah. Very sad. Interesting you bring up Africa as we're talking about the pattern of civilization growth, deforestation, scarcity, and then displacement or movement. There was a story on NPR yesterday. I don't know if you heard about it, but it was about the forest of Liberia. The title of the story was How forest guards in Liberia protect the sacred rainforests. It mainly was focusing on how important the forests are and sacred to many people. But Global Forest Watch determined that there's a loss of 100,000 hectares of natural forest in West Africa due to deforestation. And so, they've set up guards, and these people are heroes. John Perlin: [18:38] Actually, what happened is, this how large powers, for example, today export deforestation. The Chinese, for example-- and this is Liberia too. You're really a good host because you bring up issues that I really want to talk about, is the Chinese would have boats out in the ocean by Liberia. You've heard of the dictator, Taylor? He was the real monster in Liberia. This is about 20 years ago, and the Chinese would trade arms right to the dictator for trees. This is how the Chinese have been able to reforest their country by exporting deforestation in other countries. Doug Still: [19:30] Well, that's what the British did and that's what we did in New England. John Perlin: [19:35] That's why what makes A Forest Journey universal is because the story continues. Gilgamesh reading: [19:44] Gilgamesh, the perfect in strength, suckling of the august Wild Cow, the Goddess Ninsun! Who scoured the world ever searching for life, and reached through sheer force Uta-napishti the Distant; who restored the cult-centers destroyed by the deluge, and set in place for the people the rites of the cosmos. Who is there can rival his kingly standing, and say like Gilgamesh, "It is I am the king?" John Perlin: [20:23] Your mention of the value of force, forest are even more valuable today than they were in times past, because-- and this is what really makes the book new, is there's a whole section on current discoveries from, say, the 1990s, when the book was published, to current, and it turns out that forests-- okay, people believed for the longest time that ocean evaporation was the way we got rain. But now, new research shows that about 40% of the precipitation in the world comes from the forest through evapotranspiration. Doug Still: [21:03] Transpiration. Mm-hmm. John Perlin: [21:04] And also that forests, they serve as relays of rain to like rivers to very far off places. For example, the rainforests in the Congo contribute about 40% of the water to the Nile. Doug Still: [21:22] Interesting. John Perlin: [21:24] And also, we learned, and this is the part that really fascinates me, is since 1994, we're really learning the value of roots and the role they play in carbon sequestration, for example. We knew that they were valuable in creating soil. Doug Still: [21:45] Describe, then, the processes when the forest is cleared. John Perlin: [21:49] Until the 1990s, people had anthropomorphized old growth in that they thought that, well, when a tree gets older, right, it's like someone in a skilled nursing home. While that has proven to be totally false and they are the best sequesters of carbon, and that destroyed the rationale for timber harvests. Like treating them like crops. Doug Still: [22:19]. Right. Like the younger trees grow faster, so they're sequestering more carbon. That's not true. Just to be clear, sustainable forestry practices have come a long way in the last half-century. We know how to do it, and it's practiced in some parts of the world. And yet, from the year 2000 to 2020, there was a 2.4% net loss in tree cover globally. According to Global Forest Watch, the total area of humid primary forest decreased by 6.7% in about the same period. Also, through soil erosion, the carbon that's just in the soil. John Perlin: [22:59] Oh, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought up that point because you can have as much-- I think it's in the boreal forest, like 60% or 70% of the carbon is in the soil. Doug Still: [23:09] You're not just removing the carbon that's embodied in the trees. It's the whole system. John Perlin: [23:16] Well, actually, that's the tragedy of the United States, for example, is in the 19th century removing all the trees-- from the Atlantic to almost the Mississippi, it was one great forest. Once we removed that great forest, then we went into deep plowing. So, we not only destroyed the sequesters, but we added carbon from the soil. Doug Still: [23:48] I've come into close contact with it on Cape Cod. I lead forest walks in the summer in the outer Cape. And they're interesting forests. They're not as diverse as they once were. It was completely cleared in the 17th and 8th to the mid-19th century. They needed fuel for their homes and to clear agriculture. And then, Thoreau describes it as just this waste land. He is in Truro, and he can see all the way to the Provincetown, and not a tree in sight. John Perlin: [24:23] Wow. Doug Still: [24:24] It's hard to imagine when we're walking through the forest that it was like that. But if you can see the signs because there's mainly pitch pines and black oak and white oak but it's not the diversity that they used to have. And so, there it is. It's hard for us to imagine now the forest that we have in New England that was completely cleared. Gilgamesh reading: [24:50] Gilgamesh was his name from the day he was born. Two-thirds of him God, but one-third human. Four cubits was the width of his chest. A triple cubit was his foot. Half a rod his leg. Six cubits was his stride. Three cubits long the curls at his cheeks. Doug Still: [00:25:15] Well, let's get to Gilgamesh. John Perlin: [25:16] Okay, let's get to Gilgamesh. Doug Still: [25:17] Okay. John Perlin: [25:18] I love Gilgamesh. That's how I got the title of the book. Doug Still: [25:22] Yeah, I was going to say it's probably your key case study if you want to call it that. John Perlin: [25:27] Oh, yeah. Doug Still: [25:29] Because it's the earliest known piece of literature. John Perlin: [25:33] First epic. Doug Still: [25:35] You take the title of the book from-- was it tablet five? John Perlin: [25:39] Right. I owe the author of Gilgamesh, what, a use fee? Doug Still: [25:44] [laughs] Whose translation do you use? John Perlin: [25:48] The greatest scholar of cuneiform, Andrew George. Doug Still: [25:56] The Epic of Gilgamesh was written on clay tablets that were only discovered in the mid-19th century. The script is called cuneiform, a writing system of markings in the clay used for a number of languages in the ancient world. Tablets with different iterations of Gilgamesh were found in the Sumerian language but more completely in Akkadian, written by Babylonian scribes around 1800 BC. After their discovery, scholars deciphered the script, but the tablets were in hundreds of fragments found in different locations. Through the decades, they were pieced together, but there are still missing parts. Old as it may be, the tale is relatively new to modern appreciation. Who were the Sumerians and how did Uruk fit into their…? John Perlin: [26:41] Well, Uruk was the first Sumerian stronghold. It's hard to imagine, but at that time, and that was about 5000, 6000 years ago, Uruk was the first town among a wilderness. It's hard to think of Iran and Iraq being wilderness and that's because we removed all the trees. But at that time, there were gazelles, there were elephants. It was just lush, with monkeys. It was a paradise. Doug Still: [27:19] So, the forest wasn't just in the mountains originally. It was also in the plains? John Perlin: [27:24] Right. But the big trees were in the mountains. Actually, what happened, and this is the interesting thing about Gilgamesh, the story, is originally, where Gilgamesh went was in Eastern Iran. But other episodes that other monarchs used to compare themselves to Gilgamesh were in South-Central Turkey in the mountains. And then, after a couple of 1000 or 2000 years, it became the cedars of Lebanon. Doug Still: [28:01] Yes. John Perlin: [28:01] So, it's really interesting. You can actually follow the deforestation by the various iterations of the epic. Doug Still: [28:09] So, the cedar forest, which consisted of cedars of Lebanon, extended into Iraq, over to Iran-- [crosstalk] John Perlin: [28:17] Right, in the mountains. Doug Still: [28:19] In the mountains. So, it's more of a mountain species? John Perlin: [28:22] Right. It's like the same story once again, like the Americans in North America, the forests were a magnet to power. Doug Still: [28:33] Describe a cedar of Lebanon. Why was it valuable to them? John Perlin: [28:37] Because it's a very, very big tree. It has lots of lumber. Like the big trees of California, they were the big trees. They were a builder's dream. Also, they had this odor that was considered aroma for the Gods. Doug Still: [29:07] Now, in the story of Gilgamesh and I imagine in Sumerian society, these cedar forests were sacred. John Perlin: [29:14] Well, that's the whole story and that creates the story, is they were off limits to humans and they were sacred. The Gods made heaven on earth in the forest. It was like paradise. And that's where we get Genesis. In fact, in Genesis, Adam's first requirement from God is to-- I can even say it in Hebrew, but I'll say it in English, is to guard the trees. Doug Still: [29:46] Please say it in Hebrew. John Perlin: [29:48] Okay. [speaks in Hebrew]. Which means-- it almost means, like, defend, because in Israel, [Hebrew word] is used militarily. And it brought the waters-- they realized that it was the mother of the waters of the Tigris and the Euphrates which made the areas very rich and-- what do we say? The fertile crescent. Right? Doug Still: [30:17] That's right. John Perlin: [30:18] Okay. Without the trees, they realize at a very early time that-- I just read a paper on this actually, the trees were the mother of the waters that made civilization happen there. Doug Still: [30:37] You have a good quote, I wanted to read it. John Perlin: [30:39] Go ahead. Go for it. Doug Still: [30:41] "The Gods, according to the epic, had chosen this primeval forest as their home. Heaven was on Earth, just as it was in the Garden of Eden. There was always shade to temper the scorching sun of summer. The scent of cedar and juniper sweetened the surrounding air. Winds made celestial music as they played upon branches and leaves. Rivulets turned into brooks, brooks turned into streams, and then roared as great rivers into the Persian sea. The joy of living in the forest anchored the Gods to the earth." John Perlin: [31:13] Yeah, that's straight out of-- I was just paraphrasing Gilgamesh where-- and this was the really-- you asked me, well, how good a guy is Andrew George. Well, actually, in 2014, he published a new tablet with an Iraqi colleague. It's called the Ecological Gilgamesh. That text that was found in the first part of the 21st century, and then translated, showed a real ecological sensitivity where it talks about the monkeys, the insects, and the smell of the resin. It's just like heaven. Doug Still: [32:04] Yeah. Gilgamesh reading: [32:05] His cheeks were bearded, dark as gleaming lapis lazuli. The locks of his hair grew thickly as barley. When he grew tall, his beauty was consummate. Most handsome was he by the standards of men. Doug Still: [32:22] Who was Gilgamesh? John Perlin: [32:23] Gilgamesh was actually, they believe, one of the founding kings of that area of Uruk. It's like history begins at Uruk, and Gilgamesh begins at Uruk. Doug Still: [32:38] How would you describe Gilgamesh's personality? John Perlin: [32:42] Gilgamesh represented all the hubris of civilization. Gilgamesh reading: [32:47] In Uruk, the sheepfold, he walks back and forth like a wild bull, lording it, head held aloft. He has no equal when his weapons are brandished. His companions are kept on their feet by their contests. The young men of Uruk, he harries without warrant. Gilgamesh lets no son go free to his father. By day and by night, his tyranny grows harsher. Gilgamesh, the guide of the teeming people. John Perlin: [33:18] The macho-ness. Doug Still: [33:22] The alpha force. John Perlin: [33:24] Oh, yeah. Actually, there are scholarly papers on that, on the alpha force, on the macho-ness of not only-- he represented an ethos of the rulers for thousands of years, including today. Doug Still: [33:40] He's the protagonist, and he has a companion, Enkidu. John Perlin: [33:46] Okay, Enkidu, he was put on the Earth by the Gods to counter Gilgamesh's schemes. Gilgamesh reading: [33:55] The Goddess of Aruru, she washed her hands, took a pinch of clay, threw it down in the wild. In the wild, she created Enkidu, the hero, offspring of silence, knit strong by Ninurta. All his body is matted with hair. He bears long tresses like those of a woman. The locks of his hair grow thickly as barley. He knows not a people, nor even a country. Coated in hair like the God of the animals, with gazelles, he grazes on grasses, joining the throng with the herd at the watering hole. His heart delighting with beasts in the water. Doug Still: [34:42] He's the alter ego. John Perlin: [34:43] Alter ego. Right. And he's real hairy. He has hoofs, but he has a human brain. But what happens, and I don't-- I mean, it's really X-rated, is the way Gilgamesh was able to co-opt Enkidu was bring the loveliest of women-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [35:06] A harlot. John Perlin: [35:09] …out to where Enkidu is playing with his animal friends. Doug Still: [00:35:12] And there was a sexy scene. John Perlin: [35:13] You cannot believe it, what I mean, I would be banished from this podcast if I really-- in the writings, she does everything for him, and he's just like-- seven days of total pleasure. But suddenly, what happens is he sees that his relationship with the woman totally changes him, and none of his animal friends want to be with him anymore. Gilgamesh reading: [35:41] When his delights were fully sated, he turned his gaze to his herd. The gazelles saw Enkidu, they started to run, the beasts of the field shied away from his presence. Enkidu had defiled his body so pure, his legs stood still, though his herd was in motion. Enkidu was weakened, could not run as before, but now he had a reason and wide understanding. John Perlin: [36:12] And he's very weepy and all that, but she says, "Listen." Doug Still: [36:15] She humanizes him. John Perlin: [36:16] Yeah, right. She civilizes him. She says, "But listen, we have a great thing you can come to Uruk." But there, Gilgamesh and Enkidu have this big fight. Once again, alpha males. What happens is like a homoerotic story where they fight to a standstill and fall on the ground in each other's arms. Doug Still: [36:44] Sort of like a trial, in a way. John Perlin: [36:46] Yeah, right. It's a typical epic. Gilgamesh is actually dreaming of a great sword coming to Iraq. It's an amazing story. The long shot of it is they become buds. Doug Still: [37:07] What is the motivation for Gilgamesh to go and say, "I want to kill Humbaba"? First of all, let's talk about Humbaba. John Perlin: [37:15] Okay, Humbaba, for people in Uruk, Humbaba was like a demon. But for the people who lived in the forest, he was their God. Doug Still: [37:28] So, he was created or put there by a God. John Perlin: [37:32] To keep them out of their abode. Doug Still: [37:36] I think it was Enlil. John Perlin: [37:37] Enlil. He's the guy. He's the great Sky God. Doug Still: [37:40] Who loves the forest, the sacred forest. And Humbaba is there to protect it. John Perlin: [37:45] Correct. And so, what happens-- You ask the motivation. Okay, so what happens is Enkidu and Gilgamesh become lovers, but they start to get-- especially Gilgamesh gets bored. Gilgamesh reading: [37:58] Gilgamesh opened his mouth, saying to Enkidu. "Ferocious Humbaba, let us slay him so his power is no more. In the forest of cedar where Humbaba dwells, let us praise him in his lair." John Perlin: [38:14] Suddenly, Gilgamesh gets this bee in his bonnet, but he wants to go and make his name last forever once he learns he's only like two-thirds God, and then he's mortal, and Enkidu keeps on telling, "You don't want to go to that forest. You're full of dangers." Gilgamesh reading: [38:33] Enkidu opened his mouth, saying to Gilgamesh, "I knew him, my friend, in the uplands, when I roamed here and there with the herd. For 60 leagues, the forest is a wilderness. Who is there would venture inside it?" Gilgamesh opened his mouth, saying to Enkidu, "I will climb, my friend, the forest's slopes." Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "My friend, how can we go to the forest of cedar?" "So to keep safe the cedars. Enlil made it his lot to terrify men." "That is a journey which must not be made. That is a man who must not be looked on. He who guards the forest of cedar, his reach is wide. Humbaba, his voice is the deluge. His speech is fire. His breath is death." He hears the forest murmur at 60 leagues distance. "Who is there would venture into his forest?" John Perlin: [39:36] But Gilgamesh starts like a typical Semitic and guilt trips Enkidu by saying, "Look, if you don't go with me--" because Enkidu had been to the forest before, he said, "If you don't go with me, I'll probably die. Your best friend won't be alive. You should Shithead." [Doug laughs] And all the elders tell-- this is really telling of how forested this area was, is all the elders say, "Gilgamesh, don't go to the forest. Each way direction, it's like 10,000 leagues." But Gilgamesh, he's on it. Doug Still: [40:14] So, this is the heroic journey. John Perlin: [40:17] Exactly. Doug Still: [40:18] They're going to go up, and Gilgamesh wants to kill Humbaba, remove his head, and cut the trees down. He declares this before they go. John Perlin: [40:27] Yeah, but what happens, it's typical. It's like when the first people saw the giant sequoia, when they got to the cedar forest, they were so awestruck that they stopped for, like a day or two just to admire the great growth. Gilgamesh reading: [40:45] They stood there, marveling at the forest, gazing at the lofty cedars, gazing at the forest's entrance. Where Humbaba came and went, there was a track. They saw the mountain of cedar, seat of Gods and Goddesses, thrown on the face of the land. The cedar proffered its abundance. Its shade was sweet and full of delight. Thick tangle was the thorn. The forest a shrouding canopy. Cedars and gum trees all entwined, left no way in. For a league on all sides, cedars sent forth saplings. Cypresses grew thick for two-thirds of a league. Cedars scabbed with resin grew 60 cubits high. The resin oozed forth, drizzling down like rain, flowing freely for ravines to bear away. Through all the forest, a bird began to sing. Hen birds gave answer. A constant din was the noise. A solitary tree cricket set off a noisy chorus, sing a song, making the pipe loud. A wood pigeon moans. A turtle dove calls an answer. At the call of the stork, the forest exalts. At the cry of the francolin, the forest exalts amid plenty. Monkey mothers sing aloud. A youngster monkey shrieks like a band of musicians and drummers, daily they bash out a rhythm in the presence of Humbaba. Doug Still: [42:21] They were shocked how beautiful it was. John Perlin: [42:23] And the aroma and-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [42:25] They had to pause. John Perlin: [42:26] A pause. In that Ecological Gilgamesh, they're listening to all the-- you might say songs of the forest. But then, after a day Gilgamesh gives the battle cry. Doug Still: [42:44] Yeah. What makes him decide? Let's continue on. John Perlin: [42:48] Well, let's put it this way. They're avarice or their hubris always overshadows any kind of positive emotion. They've come their way-- weeks, they've been traveling. They're not going to go empty-handed. This talks about the universality of the poem, because we see all this repeated in North America, we see it repeated in the giant sequoia. At first, with the giant sequoia, people were just in awe. And then, they started to get real. "Let's get our axes." I have all those images, like the cotillion dancing on the base of a beheaded giant sequoia. Actually, I could go on and on, but anyway. Doug Still: [43:48] It's like this urge to conquer something. John Perlin: [43:51] It is. Doug Still: [43:52] If it's a natural object or if it's an elephant or it's a whale, it's a huge tree, you're in awe, you love it. But they still have to cut it down. This seems to be some awful universal impulse that humans have had. John Perlin: [44:08] Anyway, so there they are, and they see at first the beauty, but then they see the temples that they can build to perpetuate their name forever and forever. Doug Still: [44:20] They first start cutting down some trees, and then Humbaba comes out, right? John Perlin: [44:25] Right. Because he has ears that can hear 100 miles away. He has a fire that can strike you 100 miles away. He has a breath like a hurricane. But the thing is-- what really pacifies him, is he sees his old pal, Enkidu. Doug Still: [44:45] Well, actually, he starts tossing insults to the two of them, with extra vitriol for Enkidu, who has turned on him. Gilgamesh reading: [44:52] Humbaba opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "Let fools take counsel, Gilgamesh, with the rude and brutish, Why have you come here into my presence? Come, Enkidu, you spawn of fish who knew no father, hatchling of terrapin and turtle, who sucked no mother's milk. In your youth, I watched you, but near you, I went not. Now, in treachery, you bring before me Gilgamesh, and stand there, Enkidu, like a warlike stranger. I will slit the throat and gullet of Gilgamesh. I will feed his flesh to the birds of the forest, ravening eagle and vulture." Doug Still: [45:39] But Gilgamesh and Enkidu engage Humbaba in a ferocious battle, smiting the bedrock and breaking up the mountain. With assistance from the God Shamash, they end up seizing and subduing Humbaba. John Perlin: [45:52] He actually begs for his life, and he starts to try to make-- what do they say? A deal with a hangman. "If you don't hang me, I'll give you this and this amount of timber." But Enkidu, who is sort of like a convert, converts are more extreme than the regular person. Enkidu says, "Gilgamesh, this guy is just bullshitting you." Doug Still: [46:20] Just do it. John Perlin: [46:21] Just do it. Gilgamesh reading: [46:22] Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "Do not listen, my friend, to Humbaba's words of pleading. Why should his pleading even enter your mind? If he returns to his home, we shall be as unborn. He will bind us fast in the forest of cedar, then enter the grove and put on his auras. My friend, Humbaba, who guards the forest of cedar. Finish him. Slay him. Do away with his power." Doug Still: [46:52] They kill Humbaba. Gilgamesh stabs him in the neck, and Enkidu rips out his heart and lungs. But just before he dies, he leaves them with a curse. Gilgamesh reading: [47:03] Humbaba heard how Enkidu abused him. Humbaba lifted his head, weeping before Shamash, his tears flowing under the rays of the sun. "May the pair of them not grow old. Besides Gilgamesh, his friend, none shall bury Enkidu." Doug Still: [47:19] In victory, Gilgamesh and presumably his men proceed to cut down the trees in the cedar forest and send the wood down the Euphrates to Uruk to build temples, walls, and other works. John Perlin: [47:31] What's beautiful about the Ecological Gilgamesh is the trees all the way from Iran to Israel start to weep, because they know this is going to happen to them someday, which it did. It's beautifully done. Then, they start piling the timber. And they make rafts. It's exactly what Mark Twain writes in the 19th century, the great pines from Minnesota traveling down the Mississippi and Huckleberry Finn is all about that. Doug Still: [48:08] The loss and destruction shocks even Enkidu. Gilgamesh reading: [48:12] Gilgamesh went trampling through the forest to take resin from the cedars for the table of Enlil. Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland. How shall we answer Enlil in Nippur. In your might, you slew the guardian. What was this wrath of yours that you went trampling the forest?" Doug Still: [48:36] According to John Perlin, this moral questioning of their act in defiance of the God, Enlil, is the first ethical critique of the deforestation that has led to the dilemma we face today. It is one reason why the Epic of Gilgamesh is a masterpiece. John Perlin: [48:53] When they get back to Uruk-- Doug Still: [48:56] How are they received? John Perlin: [48:58] Well, we don't know how the people receive them, but we know that Gilgamesh is partying like a frat guy with all these babes. He thinks he's quite the dude. "Wowie, zowie. I'm the dude. I've conquered the cedar forest." He doesn't realize that the Gods are in conference about what we should do with these assholes, who've ruined our place. So, what they do is they decide to invoke Humbaba's curse, and Humbaba's curse is, "Now that you're killing me, one of you is going to die and then there'll be no one to mourn the other's passing." And finally, they come to a decision where Enkidu will be killed. Doug Still: [49:51] Enkidu is chosen to die by the Gods. He sees it in a dream. He dies from illness, and Gilgamesh feels the loss. For a while, he wanders the earth, pondering the meaning of his own mortality. Both Enkidu and Gilgamesh have faced the consequences of their deeds. Gilgamesh reading: [50:10] Said the tavern keeper to him, to Gilgamesh, "If you and Enkidu were the ones who slew the guardian, destroyed Humbaba, who dwelt in the forest of cedar, killed lions in the mountain passes, seized and slew the bull come down from heaven, why are your cheeks so hollow, your face so sunken, your mood so wretched, your visage so wasted?" Doug Still: [50:34] In its context, do you think Gilgamesh was a hero, or was he a transgressor, or was he some of both? John Perlin: [50:42] Well, I think it depends on whose eyes. For the rulers of the areas in the Middle East, for about 1000 years, they all tried to replicate and to legitimize their rule by repeating the feat of Gilgamesh. Like I said before, that's really interesting because the geography of where the forest is in transition because they cut down one area, so they have to go to another area. So, they go all the way from Eastern Iran to Lebanon in like a couple of thousand years. But it's celebrated. You'll see in my book, I have the illustrations of the celebration of repeating Gilgamesh's foray into the forest. Doug Still: [51:38] And what about Humbaba? He's a scary, terrible monster. He’s an awful… John Perlin: [51:47] In the eyes of civilization. Doug Still: [51:49] Right. But his mission was to guard the sacred forest. John Perlin: [51:53] In the statuary of the Sumerians, say, "Humbaba was a demon to be conquered." But then, the idea of the indigenous people in Eastern Iran and in the eyes of God-- and this is what makes the whole story so beautiful. In the eyes of God, he was the person who acted as the boundary of civilization to protect the natural beauty. Doug Still: [52:26] Right, from civilization. So, it's not all black and white, is it? John Perlin: [52:31] Well, that's why it makes it such a great story. [agreed] If it were just black and white, it would not have lasted. It's a very nuanced story. What's most amazing about it, there's at least 50 or 60 different versions that were created over the millennia. Doug Still: [52:51] So, even from this time, the ancients understood that these forests should be protected, on one hand. And on the other hand, they're perfect to build our temples with and to build ships and everything else. John Perlin: [53:07] And now you have the entire story of the yin and the yang of A Forest Journey. That's why I say Gilgamesh is like a cliff note or something like that of what's going to happen in the entire book. That's what makes the Gilgamesh story so great, is because we have never changed. Doug Still: [53:26] Overall, that's a pretty scary ecological message. John Perlin: [53:31] Basically, it's avarice and self-interest that guide civilization. Doug Still: [53:40] So, what does this mean for us today? How can we possibly stop this cycle that has gone on for 5000 plus years? Or how do we at least alter the cycle in favor of protectionism? John Perlin: [53:54] Well, if we can reflect on the stories that I present, possibly some people will clue in, especially now that we know-- we didn't know until recently all the amazing services that trees provide-- In fact, it's an existential question, actually, whether or not we want to survive as a species. But we don't have a very good record. My whole hope is that we discover a new ethos where it might be better not to do anything. Doug Still: [54:34] I do think that there's power in storytelling and understanding ourselves, and that's why telling the story of Gilgamesh, and all of these other stories that you include in your book, is so important. John Perlin: [54:47] Well, that's why I really believe, like you say, in storytelling, storytelling empirical fact. Doug Still: [54:56] We need that, but we need to get people to understand it and feel it for action to occur. John Perlin: [55:03] And that's why I wrote the book. Doug Still: [55:05] Do you see hope? John Perlin: [55:07] Hopefully, it'll bring a new ethos where we see Humbaba as the hero. Doug Still: [55:14] Yeah, we need more Humbabas. [music] Doug Still: [55:18] And I'm going to leave it there. I'd like to thank John Perlin for a fascinating, enjoyable discussion. That was a lot of fun. His book, A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization, is available now. It is gorgeous, and it comes with a QR code that links to interactive maps, timelines, a teacher's guide, and a reader's guide to deepen the experience. I'd also like to thank Martha Douglas-Osmundson for her mesmerizing reading of passages from Gilgamesh. Once again, thank you, tree lovers, for listening. I have one small ask. If you've been enjoying the show, please share the link with friends to help get the word out. Your support is so appreciated. You can also tell them that we need more Humbabas. Let them ask what that means. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Gilgamesh reading: [56:30] Ever do we build our households. Ever do we make our nests. Ever do brothers divide their inheritance. Ever do feuds arise in the land. Ever the river has risen and brought us the flood, the mayfly floating on the water. On the face of the sun, its countenance gazes. Then all of a sudden, nothing is there. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Charter Oak (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 9 Published January 30, 2023 Doug Still: [00:03] There's no mistaking the original site of the historic Charter Oak in Hartford, Connecticut. Jack Hale from the Hartford Tree Advisory Commission took me and my friend, Jean Zimmerman, there recently. Okay, Jack, where are we right now? Jack Hale: [00:19] We are at the corner of Charter Oak Avenue and Charter Oak Place, which is the location where the Charter Oak was planted. Doug Still: [00:29] I guessed that. Jack Hale: [00:31] Yeah. [chuckles] Doug Still: [00:31] Funny that they named it that. Down the block is the Charter Oak Cultural Center, the Capital Spirits Charter Oak Liquor Store, and Charter Oak Memorial Park. In fact, there are probably hundreds of businesses across the state with 'Charter Oak' in the name, from a state college to a credit union to a brewery. It's even on the Connecticut state coin. What is this phenomenon? Jack Hale: [00:54] Yeah, if you look at the wall of that apartment building, there's a plaque there to that effect. Doug Still: [01:03] The Charter Oak Place Apartments. Jack Hale: [01:06] [laughs] Yes. Jean Zimmerman: [01:07] And that's the Obelisk? Jack Hale: [01:09] The Obelisk is a memorial to the tree, but the actual location of the tree was where the apartment building is. Doug Still: [01:20] I mentioned Jean Zimmerman. She's an arborist and author of seven books, who is currently working on a book about America's complicated love affair with our forests. Jean joins me in this episode to help get to the bottom of the Charter Oak legend and how it became part of the founding myth of Connecticut. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:02] First off, I'd like to recognize the land in and around Hartford as once belonging to a confederation of indigenous tribes of the Algonquin people. In fact, the name Connecticut comes from the Algonquin word 'quinnetukut,' meaning "Long Tidal River." These peoples included the Podunks, the Poquonocks, the Massacoes, the Tunxis, the Wangunks, and the Saukiogs, where Hartford itself is located. Now, I'd like to welcome Jean Zimmerman to the show. Hi, Jean. How are you doing today? Jean Zimmerman: [02:37] I'm doing fine, Doug. How are you? Doug Still: [02:39] I'm doing great. I'm doing great. We met about six weeks ago when you submitted a Tree Story Short to the program. Jean Zimmerman: [02:47] That's right. Uh-huh. Absolutely. Doug Still: [02:49] It was a great one. That was on a beech tree that you grew up with. Jean Zimmerman: [02:54] A copper beech tree called "The Elephant Tree." Doug Still: [02:56] That was a great story. I loved it. Jean Zimmerman: [02:58] Thank you. Doug Still: [02:59] Afterwards, we started chatting about historic trees, and somehow, we got on to talking about the Charter Oak in Connecticut. Jean Zimmerman: [03:08] Right. Well, the Charter Oak is a famous tree for Connecticut people, but also for other people, I think. Doug Still: [03:14] Yeah. Neither of us are from Connecticut. I'm from Rhode Island. Jean Zimmerman: [00:03:17] And I'm from just north of New York City. Doug Still: [03:20] I remember neither of us really got why this tree was so important to Connecticutters. Jean Zimmerman: [03:25] Right. I guess we wanted to know more, and we thought we would pursue it. We did some quick searches, of course, on the Internet, and we found a basic outline of the story of the Charter Oak. Doug Still: [03:38] Yeah, there's like a general narrative out there that you read over and over. Jean Zimmerman: [03:42] There's a general narrative, and some people in Connecticut know some of it and some know some other part. It's interesting though, the background. Doug Still: [03:51] Yeah. Maybe you could give us an outline of the story. Jean Zimmerman: [03:54] Absolutely. It was in the 1660s, pre-revolution, in what was to become Connecticut, and the Charter for the colony of Connecticut was given by the king of England. The colony was relatively self-governing. But along about 1687, the new king decided that the number of colonies should be merged into one larger colony. So, he wanted to revoke Connecticut's charter. So, he sent a henchman to Hartford to come take it back. Doug Still: [04:29] Oh, boy. So then, this leads to the big legend. Jean Zimmerman: [04:34] On October 31, 1687, there was a meeting with state dignitaries in a local tavern in Hartford. The charter was sitting on a table between all of the players here. At one point, amazingly, all the candles blew out at the same time. That's the- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [04:52] Miraculous. Jean Zimmerman: [04:53] -right. It was miraculous. And when they were relit, the charter was gone. So, who knows where it went? Well, apparently it later came out that it had been whisked out of the room by somebody and brought to an old white oak tree that grew nearby. This is the tree that became known as the Charter Oak because the charter was hidden inside a big hollow in the trunk. Well, what happened next is the king's men couldn't retrieve the Charter. They couldn't find it, they didn't know where it was. And voila, Connecticut's rights were saved. And that's the story. Doug Still: [05:32] Yeah. I think that's what most people know. Like, if you were to ask somebody in Connecticut, that's what they would describe or something along those lines. Jean Zimmerman: [05:42] Right. They might not know the name of the king, or they might not know the name of the land it was on, but they do know something about the Charter being rescued. Doug Still: [05:55] It's a great story. I love it, but it kind of seems a little bit far fetched. Jean Zimmerman: [06:00] Yeah, I mean, it does seem hard to believe, especially the candles blowing out. I think you and I agree that's kind of a crazy detail. Doug Still: [06:08] It's amazing that this story has been passed down for hundreds of years. What do you think its power is? We had no idea, not being from Connecticut. Jean Zimmerman: [06:19] I don't know. I think it's good to ask why there's such veneration for this particular tree and why is there even this mysticism surrounding it. I'd love to find out more. Doug Still: [06:32] Yeah. Why this tree? And do people still care? Jean Zimmerman: [06:35] Absolutely. It sounds as though they do, but I'd just like to get down and find out more about it. Doug Still: [06:41] Well, we both had the chance to interview some wonderful people to find out some of these questions, and we got to meet each other in Hartford. How fun was that? Jean Zimmerman: [06:51] That was really fun, and it was a great day. Doug Still: [06:53] Well, to start things off, I met separately with Robert Storm to get the best description of the actual events that I could find. He is a lawyer and a historian who also holds the title, Honorary Governor General of the Society of Colonial Wars of the State of Connecticut. Do you have any idea what that means? Jean Zimmerman: [07:15] It sounds important, but no. Doug Still: [07:19] [laughs] Well, I didn't either, but let's find out. [music] Doug Still: [07:31] Hi, Robb. Welcome to the show. Robert Storm: [07:33] Thank you, Doug. Doug Still: [07:34] What is the Society of Colonial Wars and how does one get to be a member? Robert Storm: [07:40] Ah, interesting questions, both of them. The society was founded in the early 1890s in New York, and in 1893, founded in Connecticut. It's comprised of men who are descended from men who fought in a colonial war. That is anything between 1607 and April 19th, 1775, when the revolution broke out. Or they have an ancestor who was distinguished in the civil life of the particular colony through which they are claiming membership. Doug Still: [08:19] Like a governor or a town selectman or something? Robert Storm: [08:23] Yes, governor, a member of the colonial legislature, perhaps a judge. Doug Still: [08:28] Robb described a couple of his ancestors who fit this description and then went on to say that there's a parallel organization for women called The Daughters of Colonial Wars. What kinds of things do you talk about at the meetings? Robert Storm: [08:41] Those topics are wide and varied, and that's one of the chief pleasures of belonging to the Society of Colonial Wars. Doug Still: [08:47] Are they top secret? Robert Storm: [08:49] Of course, never to leave the table. [chuckles] We talk about everything from politics to visual aesthetics to the latest romance of one of the members. But for the most part, it's a society that has an intense history and an intense interest in history. Doug Still: [09:08] Has the Charter Oak ever come up? Robert Storm: [09:10] On rare occasions, but early in the last century, it was a primary focus of the group. In fact, the monument that was originally placed at the site of the Charter Oak itself, which blew down in a horrendous storm back in the summer of 1856, that was remembered by the society early after its establishment. We put up a large stone monument on the site of the old Charter Oak in, if I remember correctly, 1910. Doug Still: [09:42] The Obelisk, Jean, Jack and I found earlier. Then, I asked Rob to set the stage for our story prior to 1687. What was the Connecticut Charter who issued it, and what did it mean for the colony of Connecticut? Robert Storm: [09:57] Connecticut has an extraordinary colonial history. Most of the 13 states, original states, were founded as individual colonies. Connecticut was founded as three separate colonies. Doug Still: [10:10] And they were Puritans, meaning Protestants who felt that the Church of England hadn't sufficiently reformed and become Protestant enough. In England, King Charles I, had been beheaded in 1649 in a Civil War. Oliver Cromwell ruled as a de facto dictator until he died in 1658. And In 1660, Charles's son, Charles II, became king and restored the monarchy. Robert Storm: [10:37] Parliament decided to invite Charles II, the second son of the beheaded deposed king, to come back to England and rule. Doug Still: [10:47] He was hiding, or he was in Europe. Robert Storm: [10:48] Yes, he was in exile, principally at the French court. Charles came back very happily. But the irregular situation in which Connecticut found itself showed the Connecticut colony that theirs was a tenuous position to hold. So, they commissioned an agent to seek a charter-- a Royal charter, of course, at the time there was nothing else a Charter from the king, and he succeeded in getting it in 1662. [music] Doug Still: [11:25] Did other colonies seek charters as well? Robert Storm: [11:29] For the most part, other colonies already had charters, but Connecticut was an outlier. With its charter though, it had a legal existence basically as a corporation. Unlike most colonies, the physical location of the charter was here in America, in Hartford. In most colonies, the charter remained in London. When in 1685, Charles II's successor as king, his brother James II ascended the throne, part of James' attempt to make the colonies more governable was simple. He seized the colonies charters worked for, Massachusetts, for example-- Doug Still: [12:17] They already had them. Robert Storm: [12:17] Exactly. But he didn't have and couldn't get the Connecticut Charter. He wanted to make what he called "Dominion of New England," which wasn't simply New England, but soon thereafter also New York. So, you had the colonies of New England, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, plus New York governed as a single entity by a royally appointed governor. It was Sir Edmund Andros who caused the most trouble for Connecticut. Doug Still: [12:51] He was the one appointed as the dominion governor. Robert Storm: [12:54] Exactly. For a very brief period, there was a predecessor who proved unable to do what James wanted done. So, Andros repeatedly asked Connecticut to surrender its charter because under English law at that time, and the same law that had existed by precedence since the Middle Ages, without the physical charter, there was no legal authority. [music] Doug Still: [13:28] The people of Connecticut were being cagey. They did not want to give up their limited democracy. And as devout Puritans, they were very concerned about the religious beliefs of King James. Robert Storm: [13:43] James, however, had converted to Roman Catholicism, the great boogeyman of the Reformation. So, the colonists in Connecticut feared, and perhaps with some cause, that surrendering the charter and establishing the Dominion of New England would be only the first step of putting in again an ungodly, unbiblical government, not only in the civil sphere but also in the sphere of faith. Doug Still: [14:16] So, here comes Sir Edmund Andros. Robert Storm: [14:19] But Andros decided he would take action and came down from Boston, the capital of the Dominion and still, of course, as the leading city of New England. He came down with a ceremonial guard who in fact were really armed soldiers determined to help him take the charter by force if necessary. Doug Still: [14:43] And how many of them were there? Robert Storm: [14:44] We don't really know, but some people have guessed about 30. Connecticut had no standing army. It had a ready militia in forms of what were called trained bands. These were men who had to be called up for service and to have done that, to have opposed the unexpected ceremonial guard would have been a way of probably inciting a rebellion, if not a riot. [music] Doug Still: [15:17] We're going to take a brief pause. When we come back, Rob Storm tells us what happened when Sir Edmund Andros arrived in Hartford with one major goal, to confiscate Connecticut's charter. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Robert Storm: [15:38] He arrived late in August of 1687, ostensibly to visit the government in session, the General Assembly of Connecticut. But clearly, everyone knew he was going to ask for the charter, and he did demand it. "Well, we need to get it, we need to find it, we need to--" The actual surrender was delayed until evening. Doug Still: [16:07] Where are they meeting? Robert Storm: [16:10] That's a good question. Nobody knows for sure, but the legend usually has them in Standards Tavern which was about the place that the old State House stands now. So, a good three or four blocks away from the location of Charter Oak. Doug Still: [16:27] So, they met in a tavern? Robert Storm: [16:29] That's what we think, that it was upstairs in the tavern. Now, it's nightfall, necessary to light the candles. The box containing the charter, probably a long box square at the ends, that's put in the middle of the table with the assemblymen on one side and Andros and his retinue on the other side. They're discussing in order to make sure that certain questions are answered, that everything's done in good form, that everything happens just as it should. The assembly comes to the point of almost agreeing with everything that Sir Edmund had said that he wanted. It remains only for him to physically take possession of the charter. Doug Still: [17:18] So, it's looking like they're going to capitulate. Robert Storm: [17:21] Indeed, indeed. But then suddenly, the legend handed down in my family, some of my mother's ancestors were assemblymen at the time, is that the window was opened and a sudden gust of air came in from the night sky. [air gust sound] All the candles are extinguished. Well, they're quickly relit. It couldn't have taken more than a minute or two to have done that. But the table has nothing on it, except the candles. The box containing the charter has disappeared. Now, who took it? We don't really know. But the Wadsworth family has a constant legend that their ancestor, Captain Joseph, was the one who had taken it away in that very brief period in which everything was extinguished. Doug Still: [18:17] I see. I mean whenever I read about the legend, Joseph Wadsworth whisked away the charter, but you're saying that it started probably with the Wadsworth family in their oral history? Robert Storm: [18:30] Well, that's probably the case, but we don't really know. Captain Joseph is as good a possibility as any other. We do know that the governor and the deputy governor were still there at the table. We do know that some of the assemblymen still were there, but Captain Joseph might not have been the only one who was absent when the lights were relit. Doug Still: [18:57] In addition to being from a prominent Hartford family, Rob explained that Wadsworth was also a militia leader. Robert Storm: [19:04] Captain Joseph had his military title from being active in the trainband of Hartford. Doug Still: [19:12] So, he was the captain of a trainband? Robert Storm: [19:14] Exactly. The Militia Company of Hartford. Doug Still: [19:17] While at the Connecticut State Library, I did a little research on Joseph Wadsworth. One source was a Wadsworth family history from the 19th century, which gave him this description. "Joseph was an impetuous, aggressive, courageous, and resolute young man, and an early leader among the younger set of Hartford. He sounded like a tough guy, so I had to ask, was he there to show some force for the Connecticut side." And were they present or nearby during this night? Robert Storm: [19:50] I doubt sincerely that the militia were out at the time, and they were not uniformed, so there wouldn't have been any clear distinction for him to have had. But everyone on the Connecticut side would have known that he was a captain in the trained band. Doug Still: [20:07] Was he present in the room during most of the discussions? Robert Storm: [20:11] Well, again, that's what the legend says. Doug Still: [20:14] Would his presence have been seen as a threat to Sir Andros? Christopher Martin: [20:21] Probably not. Again, although the guards accompanying Sir Edmund were uninformed, and the trained bands of Connecticut did not have uniforms, so they would not have known who he was. Doug Still: [20:36] But he would have been somebody who had the courage. Robert Storm: [20:39] Exactly. Now, it's commonly believed that all of this was engineered in advance, that everyone knew that the candles would be extinguished. Who came up with the idea? I don't know, but it would have been Wadsworth or somebody like him who would have taken it out. Probably a good sprinter, if nothing else. Doug Still: [21:00] We don't know how he got it out of the room. He didn't jump through the window, right? Robert Storm: [21:05] Right. What I imagine is that there was a single staircase leading up to the second floor of the tavern and that the charter was on the end of the table nearest the staircase. Doug Still: [21:20] And so, what happened then when he left the building? Robert Storm: [21:25] Again, the legend. He ran with the box under his arm, I don't doubt, to the Willis Estate. That was what had been their farm-- was still the farm of Samuel Wyllys, again just a few blocks away. Doug Still: [21:41] Hartford at this time was still a small town with home lots for about only a few hundred people. Robert Storm: [21:47] The home lot was sufficiently big, two, three, four acres, that much of it retained a rural character, including this tree, which had been held as quasi-sacred by the Indians who had sold the land to the settlers two generations earlier. Doug Still: [22:07] Why do you think it was quasi-sacred? Robert Storm: [22:10] Again, this is a legend that's come down in the Wyllys' line, and it might not be entirely accurate, but most family legends in New England, I dare say, are based on truth. The legend is that the Indians, sometime after the sale of the land, came back to visit, and of course, the settlers allowed them to visit. There was no problem with that. Some of them then told Samuel Willis that this tree had been planted at the time that the tribe had originally entered what now is Connecticut, which would have been probably 300 years, 400 years before the sale of the property in the 1630s. So, the tree marked peace between tribes. It also was a marker for them of the settlement by the Indians of Connecticut. Last of all, it continued to be a guide to them for when they should plant corn. The story is that when the leaves budded and reached the size of a mouse's ear, which would be roughly the size of your little fingernail, that was the time to plant corn. Doug Still: [23:29] That's interesting that within their oral history, the tree was planted, it wasn't just a remnant tree. Robert Storm: [23:36] The Wyllys family and its descendants continued for some time to call it the Peace Oak or so again this family story goes. But it did get the new name not long after the encounter with Sir Edmund Andros. Doug Still: [23:51] So, that tree already had an aura around it of history and importance. [music] Doug Still: [24:03] It was quite old and had a big hollow, obviously. Robert Storm: [24:09] Exactly. It had already begun to rot, I'm afraid. Doug Still: [24:14] And the charter was in a box, so it had to have a cavity, it must be 3ft long. They'd put it in a tree in case one of their homes-- if they put it in a home, their home could have been searched. Robert Storm: [24:29] Exactly. Doug Still: [24:31] Who was Samuel Wyllys? Why was he important? Robert Storm: [24:35] Well, he was one of the leading members of the colony. His father had been governor. He was, by colonial standards, well to do. The home lot was substantial. The house was substantial, and the farm apparently was a very productive farm. Doug Still: [24:53] And clearly, it was on a hill, I visited, which probably had quite a view. Robert Storm: [24:57] Oh, yes. That, I think, probably was another reason for choosing the Charter Oak. First, it had a hollow. Second, it was far enough away from the tavern that it would not be under immediate suspicion. Thirdly, the house probably had windows on each side, so any attempt of anyone to come up to the house would have been seen with enough time to be able to make sure that the charter itself was safe. Doug Still: [25:27] What are the earliest records of this incident? In my research, I found A History of Connecticut by Trumble that was written in 1815, where this story, this legend, was recorded. But what are the earliest records of that? Robert Storm: [25:46] I've not seen what I'm about to mention, but I have on good authority from a cousin who died at the age of 101 with her memory fully intact that there were family letters within months of the incident, not detailing it but saying something to the effect of Sir Edmund had come down with his armed guard from Boston, demanded surrender of the charter. But the charter was spirited away right before his eyes. Well, we know that couldn't have occurred unless it were dark. So, the extinguishing of the candles makes sense in that regard. Apparently, in the early 1700, it was pretty common knowledge also that the incident had occurred. Doug Still: [26:33] So, these letters may still exist in someone's private collection? Robert Storm: [26:38] They may well, and I hope sincerely that they do. My cousin, Ellis, my grandfather's cousin who told me this, was speaking in the 1960s. And at that time, she was speaking as though the letters were definitely still existing. Doug Still: [26:57] Well, if anyone finds them, we'd love to know .[laughter] And so would the Museum of Connecticut History, Robb described one descendant of Joseph Wadsworth within his society who passed away in 2020, Frank Wadsworth. I asked if there are any descendants of Samuel Wyllys. Robert Storm: [27:15] There are. I'm not the only one. Doug Still: [27:18] You're one of them? Robert Storm: [27:19] I am through my mother's side. The family itself, sadly, no longer exists with the name of Wyllys. Doug Still: [27:28] Now, my fifth great-grandmother was Phoebe Wade of the Wade family. They lived in Lyme, Connecticut. Robert Storm: [27:38] It's a good Connecticut name. Doug Still: [27:39] Yeah. Robert Storm: [27:40] Its ancestry definitely goes back into the colonial period. So, if an armed guard shows up on your doorstep [Doug laughs] some time and says, "You must join the Society of Colonial Wars," you know what. Doug Still: [27:50] So, I can join, right? Robert Storm: [27:53] You can. Doug Still: [27:54] Well, from a historical perspective, it was looking more and more like the legend was real, or mostly so. But Jean and I wanted to see what parts of the legacy can still be found. So, we met in Hartford on a mild December afternoon. We started at the Connecticut State Library, an impressive, echoey building located across the street from the state capitol. It houses the state library, the Connecticut Supreme Court, and the Museum of Connecticut History. It was the museum we wanted to see because we learned that it holds the renowned charter that Joseph Wadsworth hid back in 1687. Doug Still: [28:30] Wow. Jean Zimmerman: [28:31] Wow. Doug Still: [28:32] This place is incredible, and there's nobody here. Jean Zimmerman: [28:34] And the floors are gleaming. Somebody takes very good care of this place. And we're surrounded by portraits of men. Doug Still: [28:39] [chuckles] Yes. Jean Zimmerman: [28:41] I don't know who these men are. Doug Still: [28:42] All white men. Jean Zimmerman: [28:43] All white men, and many of them in the Napoleonic pose with their hands in their coats. Doug Still: [28:52] Yes. The patriarchy. [laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [28:55] With the patriarchy. I'm assuming that these people are all perhaps past governors of the state. I'm not sure. Doug Still: [29:03] It appears to be, but I was told that the charter is on the far wall. Let's take a look. Jean Zimmerman: [29:13] You're standing on it, sorry, Doug. You're standing on the Charter Oak right now. [Doug laughs] I wish we could show a picture of this. Doug Still: [29:19] Well, I'll take a picture. It's inlaid brickwork with the oak, the Charter Oak. Jean Zimmerman: [29:24] Mm-hmm. Doug Still: [29:25] And then straight ahead is the Royal Charter of 1662. And it's in a wooden frame. It says, "Only the crest of the frame is thought to be of Charter Oakwood." Jean Zimmerman: [29:43] What's beautiful about it is that it's a kind of meta-statement, because it's carved of the Charter Oakwood, and it is also a sculpture of the Charter Oak leaves and acorns. Doug Still: [29:57] That's right. It's quite lovely, actually. Then, it says in 1893, the framed Charter was moved to the state library where we stand, which occupied what is now the State Senate chamber in the Capitol. Apparently, John Kinney, an editor of the Hartford Courant and a collector of historical relics, purchased the original frame and apparently had many smaller frames veneered with Charter Oak wood made from it. Jean Zimmerman: [30:27] Okay. Doug Still: [30:28] That just seems wrong to me. I'm sorry. Jean Zimmerman: [30:29] [laughs] Do you don't think that seems possible? How many frames could be made? Doug Still: [30:36] I don't know, but I bet we'll find some around the state. Jean Zimmerman: [30:39] Also, if you look above this particular framed Charter, you'll see another portrait of the Charter Oak on the wall. Doug Still: [30:47] Yes. You want to read what it says about it? Jean Zimmerman: [30:49] Sure. It says, Charles de Wolf Brownell, "In 1856, he executed the painting of the Charter Oak, which hangs above the Charter vault, done from an 1855 pencil sketch. The painting hung for many years in the office of the president of the Charter Oak Bank." It says the artist, Brownell, chose to depict the tree with, as he said, its remarkable branching, which extended south toward the Connecticut River. "The Brownell view was later used on the postage stamp and half a dollar commemorating Connecticut Tercentenary in 1935." Doug Still: [31:26] Right. Jean Zimmerman: [31:27] Doug, I'd love to know your idea as an arborist about the branching aspect of this tree. Doug Still: [31:32] Okay. Jean Zimmerman: [31:33] Is it extraordinary? Doug Still: [31:34] It seems to be very asymmetrical, which I think that you would find in a very old tree. It extends away from the fence line to the fence line. I saw another etching of this from the other side, which would be interesting to compare. It extends over - looks like Samuel Wyllys's land. And then there's some dieback. Jean Zimmerman: [31:59] Yeah, I see the deadwood. Doug Still: [32:01] And I see the branches kind of curving and moving. I've seen some 400-year-old white oaks, and that's what they do. So, I think it's pretty realistic, actually. The tree fell in 1856. It says this was taken from a pencil drawing from 1855. So, it most likely is pretty spot on. Then, we moved on to the relics of the Charter Oak and the memorabilia. There was a lot of it. So, we're looking at a display case full of the names of Charter Oak businesses and old photographs over the years. Jean Zimmerman: [32:43] What I said is there's nothing so low to have the Charter Oak name. [Doug laughs] Nothing so low or so high. It goes everything from Charter Oak Venetian Blinds [Doug laughs] to the Charter Oak First Prize Ribbon for Poultry 1921 at the state fair. Doug Still: [32:59] Yes. Charter Oak Coffee Roasting Company. Jean Zimmerman: [33:03] Charter Oak Trucking Company. Doug Still: [33:06] Soon, we learned about another important piece of Hartford history, that Samuel Colt, the firearms manufacturer, was a prominent figure at the same time the Charter Oak was lost in the 1856 storm. There's an entire room dedicated to Colt in the Connecticut State Museum. Their histories are intertwined. Jean Zimmerman: [33:25] This is what I've actually really wanted to see, which is the Colt revolver. That's a famous one. It's made out of wood. Doug Still: [33:33] Yeah, There's a whole room of Colt Firearms. Jean Zimmerman: [33:36] Oh, okay. And all made from wood, though. This one is carved from Charter Oakwood. It's a wood revolver which I guess makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen a wood revolver before. Doug Still: [33:49] That is a blending of Connecticut history right there. Jean Zimmerman: [33:53] Colt and Charter Oak. Doug Still: [33:57] And another cool find. Jean Zimmerman: [33:59] Here is a photograph of Charter Oak. Doug Still: [34:02] Incredible. I didn't realize that there was a photograph of it. Jean Zimmerman: [34:07] We don't have a date on this photo, but it also is framed in wood from the Charter Oak. So again, it's meta upon meta. Doug Still: [34:17] We can see an iron fence around it and the city growing around it that I can see. We were just getting started. Jack Hale, who you met briefly at the beginning of this episode, was kind enough to show us other Charter Oak sites in Hartford, and we learned so much from him. Okay, could you just maybe say your name so I have it? Jack Hale: [34:39] I'm Jack Hale. H-A-L-E. Doug Still: [34:42] Thanks. You've agreed to show us around Hartford a little bit and dig up some Charter Oak history and paintings and relics. Where are we right now? Jack Hale: [34:54] We're in the Wadsworth Atheneum Museum of Art. Doug Still: [34:58] I knew that because I walked in and just bought a ticket. [laughter] Jack Hale: [35:01] So, did I get it right? [laughter] Doug Still: [35:04] Yes, it's right. And what are you going to show us here? Jack Hale: [35:07] We're going to show you a couple of things that were made out of the wood of the Charter Oak after it fell, and also a painting of the Charter Oak. Doug Still: [35:20] He first told us a little bit of what happened after the tree fell in 1856. Jack Hale: [35:26] What happened? Doug Still: [35:28] Yeah, I mean, they were [Jack chuckles] crushed, I guess. Jack Hale: [35:31] Oh, yeah. It was a tragedy. Doug Still: [35:34] it's a [crosstalk]. It was in the newspaper. Jack Hale: [35:37] Well, they actually held a funeral for the tree, and Sam Colt, who by that time had made his way as a gun manufacturer, was obsessed with the tree. And so, he did everything he could to get as much of the wood from the tree as he could possibly get. Doug Still: [36:00] And who's Sam Colt? Jack Hale: [36:02] Sam Colt invented the revolver and he was an international arms dealer. Doug Still: [36:12] Yeah. He was based right here in Hartford. Jack Hale: [36:14] Right here, yes. Jean Zimmerman: [36:14] We actually saw one of those wood revolvers that he made in the State Library Museum, just now. Jack Hale: [36:21] Yeah, you can see evidence over there. Jean Zimmerman: [36:24] He was important enough by that time that what he said sort of went in terms of, "I'm going to collect all of this wood from the tree." Jack Hale: [36:33] Well, I don't know that influence is what was involved there. He was just one hustler guy. [Doug laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [36:40] Okay. Jack Hale: [36:41] If he decided he wanted something, he went after it. He was a businessman and a hustler, an entrepreneur. Doug Still: [36:50] Then, we went upstairs. Okay, what are we standing in front of, Jack? Jack Hale: [36:55] This is a famous painting of the Charter Oak. You can see it says here it was painted in 1857, which was right after it fell by Charles De Wolf Brownell. We're talking about Colt. Here's the top of the Colt Armory right here. Doug Still: [37:17] Jack pointed at the painting, and a guard came up. Jean Zimmerman: [37:19] Sorry, we were just-- Guard: [37:20] Get down. Jack Hale: [37:21] Oh, sorry. Guard: [37:22] Sorry. Don't touch the pictures. [laughter] Jack Hale: [37:26] And-- it's a frame. Doug Still: [37:28] It's a gorgeous frame. And the painting is lovely. Jean Zimmerman: [37:31] But you know, one thing, again, that I love about this is when something is made from the oak, and it depicts the oak like the frame here again, we have carvings of the Oak branches and leaves, and I think that's particularly beautiful. Jack Hale: [37:46] There is another painting which is perhaps even more historic than this one that was done by Frederick Edwin Church. It's at the Griswold Museum. Doug Still: [38:03] What else do you have to show us? Jack Hale: [38:03] That's the tree. Let's walk around the corner a little bit. Doug Still: [38:06] Okay. Jack Hale: [38:07] Now, this chair, I mean, you can read the label on there, but this chair was made for the Hartford City Council. They commissioned it, but they didn't want to pay the bill. So, Sam Colt bought it and it came here as part of the collection that was left to the Atheneum when Elizabeth died. Jean Zimmerman: [38:34] According to the description on the wall, this was actually carved in the same year the tree fell. This was 1857. Jack Hale: [38:44] Yeah. Doug Still: [38:45] And there's a small painting right next to it that's lovely by George Francis called Charter Oak and Willis House. This is circa 1858. So, it'd have been two years after the tree was gone by then. Jack Hale: [39:00] Yeah. Jean Zimmerman: [39:01] However, Willis was an earlier resident. It says here that he actually died in about 1645. At the time of the Oak, when all of the stuff transpired about the Oak, it was owned by someone named William Stewart. Jack Hale: [39:18] Very good. Jean Zimmerman: [39:19] And, it says that William Stewart allegedly had thousands of objects carved from its branches, from thimble cases to pianos. Doug Still: [39:27] We were far from the first tourists to take in all that is Charter Oak. Here's Mark Twain from 1868 after a trip to Hartford. Mark Twain: [39:37] Anything that is made of its wood is deeply venerated by the inhabitants and is regarded as very precious. I went all about the town with the citizen whose ancestors came over with the pilgrims in the Quaker City in the Mayflower, I should say. He showed me all the historic relics of Hartford. He showed me a beautifully carved chair in the Senate Chamber, where the bewigged and awfully homely old-time governors of the Commonwealth frown from the canvas overhead. "Made from Charter Oak," he said. I gazed upon it with inexpressible solicitude. He showed me another carved chair in the house. "Charter Oak," he said. I gazed again with interest. Then, we looked at the rusty, stained, and famous old charter and presently I turned to move away, but he solemnly drew me back and pointed to the frame. "Charter Oak," said he. I worshiped. We went down to Wadsworth's Atheneum and I wanted to look at the pictures, but he conveyed me silently to a corner and pointed to a log rudely shaped somewhat like a chair and whispered, "Charter Oak." I exhibited the accustomed reverence. He showed me a walking stick, a needle case, a dog collar, a three-legged stool, a bootjack, a dinner table, a ten-pin alley, a toothpick. I interrupted him and said, "Never mind, will bunch the whole lumber here and call it Charter Oak," he said. Well, I said, "Now, let us go and see some Charter Oak for a change." [chuckles] I meant that for a joke, but how was he to know that, being a stranger? He took me around and showed me Charter Oak enough to build a plank road from here to Great Salt Lake City. Doug Still: [41:44] We then left the museum, and Jack brought us a few blocks away to show us some living descendants of the Charter Oak. So, Jack, where are we now? Jack Hale: [41:54] We're in Bushnell Park in Downtown Hartford, the oldest municipally sponsored park in the United States. Doug Still: [42:01] Really? Jack Hale: [42:02] Yes. Doug Still: [42:03] And why are we here? Jack Hale: [42:04] It's got a couple of scions of the Charter Oak. We're standing in front of one of them. It's called the Hoadley Oak. Doug Still: [42:11] This is the Hoadley Oak that we're standing right next to? Jack Hale: [42:14] Yeah. The gate we just came through is the Hoadley Gate, and it's a memorial too. Jean Zimmerman: [42:26] Was the park built around this tree or was this tree planted after the park was put in? Jack Hale: [42:34] So. This park was built in 1857, so I don't know how long after that this oak was planted, but there it is. Doug Still: [42:50] Any idea how they took cuttings or acorns or how did they propagate the descendants of the Charter Oak? Jack Hale: [43:00] I know some of it was done with acorns, but there may also be some done with cuttings. Doug Still: [43:09] There might have been a nursery that was growing them nearby and they planted this from the nursery? Jack Hale: [43:15] Or just an interested person who decided to propagate the tree. Doug Still: [43:21] Bad timing. A tree crew was nearby, and the sound of chainsaws disrupted some of our conversations. The leaves of this white oak are still hanging on the tree. They're persistent. So, clearly, it's a white Oak. Jack Hale: [43:34] Yeah, pretty standard. Doug Still: [43:36] I'd say it's about 32 inches in diameter. I'm going to guess. Jack Hale: [43:45] I should have brought my D-TAPE with me. [laughter] Jean Zimmerman: [43:48] We just had the big storm, apparently one of the storms of the century a few days ago. So, they're still cleaning up. I can see a lot of branches on the ground, but it doesn't look as though this particular oak, this white oak, had suffered much damage. Jack Hale: [44:03] Well, it's got some deadwood in it, but it seems to be in pretty good shape. Doug Still: [44:08] Where are you taking us to next? Jack Hale: [44:10] We're going to take you to the big one. Doug Still: [44:13] Next, Jack brought us to an even bigger descendant of the Charter Oak, a 50-inch diameter white oak that didn't have a name. It was in perfect condition and well cared for. Jack told us about a tree map of all the known scions, which is available online from a website called Connecticut's Notable Trees, which is sponsored by the Connecticut Botanical Society, the Connecticut College Arboretum, and the Connecticut Urban Forest Council. We then got into a discussion about how these descendants were propagated. I guessed acorns germinated at a nursery and grown into saplings. But Jean met with Christopher Martin from the State's Department of Energy and Environmental Protection to get his perspective. Jean Zimmerman: [44:56] So, first of all, let's start out, just tell me, just for the record, your name, your title, and what you do. Christopher Martin: [45:05] Sure. I'm Chris Martin. I'm the state forester for Connecticut. That's a dual role. I'm also the director of the Forestry Division within our Bureau of Natural Resources. The bureau covers the fish and wildlife of Connecticut, the marine fisheries, and then within different divisions. And then, a division of forestry that we really focus on the trees and forests of Connecticut and the different ownerships, the private lands, the water company lands, the state lands. We do Smokey Bear and forest protection and firefighting and then urban forestry work also. Jean Zimmerman: [45:48] Okay. Are you a long-time Connecticut person? Christopher Martin: [45:52] I was born in Southwestern Connecticut, yeah. Grew up in Beacon Falls, New Haven County. Jean Zimmerman: [45:57] Okay, let's just dive right in. When you were growing up, did you know about the story of Charter Oak? Christopher Martin: [46:06] Umm, I didn't. I knew the nickname for Connecticut was the Charter Oak Staters A State Tree. I was heavily involved in Boy Scouts, so I've always enjoyed the outdoors and camping. So, hearing about Charter Oak on and off, yeah, I acknowledged it, but I didn't really understand it. Of course, in my position, I've become more familiar with it. But the original Charter Oak was this huge monster white oak tree well over 400 years. And this is like colonial times when the Europeans first came over and the indigenous populations recognized this tree that overlooked the Connecticut River, really in an outstanding location, as an area of gathering. The indigenous folks approached a new landowner, it was sold. The property was sold with the tree, and they pleaded with the landowner not to cut it down, let it grow, really important to them, and he agreed to that. Jean Zimmerman: [47:13] Let's just jump ahead then, in terms of passing along the stories and the importance of the seedlings and the acorns. What I've heard is that the acorns were gathered at the time the storm blew the tree down. Is that what happened? And who gathered? Was it Samuel Colt or how did that happen? Christopher Martin: [47:34] Yeah, I've heard the same, that acorns were gathered. The acorns themselves were distributed. The one that we are the most assured is a descendant in Bushnell Park in Hartford, a descendant of the Charter Oak. So, over time, when the agency, the state of Connecticut, wanted to propagate more Charter Oak trees, they would collect the acorns from underneath this one tree in Bushnell Park. Jean Zimmerman: [48:03] So, that is the tree we visited the other day. They have a plaque underneath that says the scion, right? And so, that tree was planted-- Let me look at my note. I don't have it down, but that tree was planted in 1868 or something like that, right? Christopher Martin: [48:19] It's [unintelligible]. Jean Zimmerman: [48:22] Right. So, the other scions are from the acorns, from that particular oak? Christopher Martin: [48:28] The trees that the state of Connecticut distributed in ‘60s and the ‘70s were from that oak in Bushnell Park. Jean Zimmerman: [48:38] Okay. Was there something that happened in the ‘60s or ‘70s that precipitated that interest in distributing the seedlings? Christopher Martin: [48:46] I'm not sure about it was ‘60s, the ‘70s, 1976, it was kind of a bicentennial-- part of our national Bicentennial celebration. So, there was a concerted effort to give as many people as wanted-- the towns that wanted a descendant of the Charter Oak tree. Jean Zimmerman: [49:05] And were those acorns distributed, or is there a nursery in Connecticut, like a state nursery, where the seedlings were propagated? Christopher Martin: [49:16] At the time, there were a couple of different nurseries, one in Griswold and then in the Windsor area that the acorns were planted and germinated and cared for into a small sapling stage. Those facilities no longer serve that purpose. Jean Zimmerman: [49:34] Good to know. I wonder what they did way back when they first propagated those trees from the first acorn crop from the original tree [crosstalk] Christopher Martin: [49:43] They probably just stuck them in the soil and put a fence around that keeps the deer or other animals from eating them. [laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [49:49] Yeah, right. And grew a few trees. Doug Still: [49:52] Jean spoke to several people around the state about Charter Oak including Allan Fenner, a consulting arborist. He had a story about a piece of the Charter Oak showing up after one of his jobs. Jean Zimmerman: [50:03] So, now tell me the story about the Charter Oak, the piece of the oak that you said your client gave to you. How did that come about? Allan Fenner: [50:13] Well, I was doing kind of a tree-related job for a client after Storm Sandy. It was someone who had called me. She couldn't get a hold of anyone to do any kind of work, and there were portions of trees all down on her property. So, I came out there to help and take care of her. My two sons and I went out there and we took care of the property. After we were finished, she presented me with a piece of oak and said-- the woman was about 80 years old, and she said it was given to her by her grandfather and was supposedly related to a portion of the tree of the Charter Oak. It was a small, about three inch by two-inch thick piece of definitely oak. Definitely white Oak. Right now, I have it on my desk, and it serves the purpose of holding down paper very well. Jean Zimmerman: [51:20] [laughs] As it should. Okay. Doug Still: [51:22] Robb Storm also had his own story about a piece of the Charter Oak. You mentioned that there was a relic of the Charter Oak in your family. Robert Storm: [51:32] There was probably. My three great grandfathers obtained a large, round section thick from-- I would guess not the trunk itself, but one of the lower branches. That was proudly displayed in the front parlor of my mother's family home, which had been in the family for generations in Vernon Center. Unfortunately, my mother's parents fell on hard times with the Depression. So, they opened what they called the Early Dawn Inn. Big rambling, old late colonial farmhouse with only two children. So, there were plenty of rooms to let out tourists, especially during the leaf-peeping period, the autumn, which, as is gorgeous here in New England. Doug Still: [52:24] Oh, absolutely. Robert Storm: [52:26] Unfortunately, one morning after the guests had left, they found that this big, round section had left also. Very sad, and it is still bemoaned when members of the family get together. Jean Zimmerman: [52:45] The Charter Oak isn't the only important oak out there, okay? There are a lot of oaks historically that matter a lot to people. One of them is the Treaty Oak in Austin. Supposedly, a spurned lover poisoned a live oak there in 1989. But that tree supposedly stood since before Columbus, Comanches hammered out agreements there, and it still stands downtown behind a chain link fence, and it's treasured by the public. By the way, you can buy seedlings for that tree if you want to plant one in your own yard for $79.95. Also, there's a tree called the Major Oak in England that also had a hole, and supposedly that was a hideout for Robin Hood and his Merry Band. They say that it's almost a thousand years old. We often think that oaks are important for various reasons, and you can find other really famous ones around. Am I the first person that's approached you about this story recently, or do you get any other interest in it? Christopher Martin: [53:56] Periodically, there's an interest. The Hartford Courant ran an interest story on it a few years ago. When you talk about Connecticut history or anyone that wants to delve into Connecticut's history and do write an article about Connecticut, it's hard to skip the importance of the Charter Oak and how it's our signature to many folks when they think of Connecticut, they think of the Nutmeg State, the Constitution State, and, "Oh, yeah, that famous Charter Oak." So, it kind of goes hand in hand when you're reflecting back on Connecticut's history. Jean Zimmerman: [54:29] As a forester, what's your feeling about the white oak? Is that a tree that you like particularly, or is it significant that this was a white oak? Allan Fenner: [54:41] That's a great question, and I have a lot of admiration for white oak trees. They are strong, sturdy, long lived. They can grow in a variety of habitats. They can be used for a variety of purposes. The mast, the acorns themselves are incredibly valuable for wildlife, a variety of wildlife species, and even insects and butterflies. These are areas that we're managing the forest for wildlife habitat, or we're cleaning up after a storm, and we really hate to waste wood. So, we'll turn it into a usable, durable product. Doug Still: [55:19] Near the completion of this story, Jean and I received some difficult news from Jack. The Hoadley Oak, the descendant of the Charter Oak, which the three of us visited, is one of five trees in Bushnell Park that were subject to extensive analysis because they appeared to be declining. The result of the study is that this historic oak is now scheduled for removal because it was determined to be high risk, essentially due to a column of decay deep within its trunk. The assessment was conducted by an outside consultant. But the removal decision has been challenged by citizens, and there will be an upcoming hearing that is yet to be scheduled. Back to our guests, we asked each of them to tell us why they thought the legend of the Charter Oak is important. Christopher Martin: [56:04] I believe the reason is trees can tie us to our past and make us remember more vividly or get a picture in our mind of what actually happened. I think it's a great way to teach younger kids about history and the fact that it's a tree that they can easily relate to. Allan Fenner: [56:30] Well, I think it's appropriate that the Charter Oak, being a white oak, and then the official state tree of Connecticut is the white oak, Quercus alba. I think it reflects well on Connecticut's citizenry and our governance and where we are in the world. It's a nice reflection. So, I don't know, it's just it's a good fit for Connecticut. Robert Storm: [56:57] I think it's more symbolic than anything. A legendary wood, sturdy, long lasting. The mighty oaks of England are legendary. It's the heartiness, the solidity of oak that means a great deal. The beauty of this particular tree was unusual too. It hadn't the form of a typical oak tree. You've seen, of course, the paintings. In 1935, it appeared on the tercentenary stamps for the existence of the colony. It was the emblem of the colony. But in addition, it had that reputation of being a sign of peace, an emblem of peace as well as solidity. On its high hill overlooking the capital city of Connecticut, it had almost the quality of a guardian of the entire population of the state. So, it was looked upon almost as a nonhuman ancestor, I think, for all of us who live here in Connecticut. Doug Still: [58:03] Well, Jean, I'd say if the legend of the Charter Oak has survived in Connecticut for 340 years, it isn't going anywhere. Jean Zimmerman: [58:10] I'd say so. Doug Still: [58:12] I really noticed that people would light up whenever we asked them about it, and they would talk about it. Jean Zimmerman: [58:17] Yeah, that seems true of everybody that we spoke with. Doug Still: [58:20] Even if the Hoadley Oak is lost, I think this legend will live on. Jean Zimmerman: [58:26] Right. It makes you ask though about the meaning of a hollow in a tree. It used to be something of such value and something so important was hidden in it. Now, we're actually kind of risk-averse and we're worried that a tree with a cavity is somehow dangerous. Times sure have changed. Doug Still: [58:44] Yeah, there's an irony in that. This story wouldn't have existed without the hollow in Charter Oak. Jean Zimmerman: [58:50] Absolutely. Douglas Still: [58:51] What do you find most remarkable about this story? Jean Zimmerman: [58:54] Well, to me, one thing that's amazing is just that a tree is still cherished by so many folks and in our highly advanced techie society that a tree, something so natural, is still recognized as being really important. Doug Still: [59:12] Well, we met some wonderful people, didn't we? Jean Zimmerman: [59:15] We did. Doug Still: [59:15] Thank you so much for researching and investigating this story with me. It's been a great pleasure. Jean Zimmerman: [59:22] It's been fun working with you, Doug. Doug Still: [59:24] You've been listening to This Old Tree, and I'm Doug Still. Thanks again to Jean Zimmerman, Robert Storm, Jack Hale, Chris Martin, and Allan Fenner for appearing on the show today. You all really helped bring the story alive. Thanks to Robb Barnard for a fantastic Mark Twain. And thank you tree lovers for listening. Visit the website thisoldtree.show for more guest information, show notes, photos, and if you're interested in supporting the show through Patreon, I'll see you next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still Harlem's Tree of Hope (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 8 Published January 13, 2023 Doug Still: Picture this. We're in Harlem in New York City, and it's the 1920's. [music] There's a cultural awakening going on. There’s jazz and dance, theater and literature, big celebrities and lots of new talent looking for a break. And of course, because this is a show about trees, there is a tree that somehow fits into all of this, a symbol of the Harlem Renaissance. It’s the Tree of Hope, and it was a good luck charm to black performers looking to make the big time. Garden historian and storyteller, Abra Lee, is here to tell the story of this particular tree's rise to fame, its demise, and its enduring legacy. That's all coming up. I'm Doug Still, and welcome to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: A long time ago, a mature elm tree stood on the east side of 7th Avenue between 131st and 132nd Streets in New York City, although 7th Avenue is now known as Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. Boulevard. It was an American elm tree, that is clear to me from photos of the 1920s, but it is long gone. [traffic sounds] Gone, too, is any trace of the Roaring '20s. Go to the spot now, and you'll see a sleek new apartment building that spans the entire block. Clean, modern, and bland. There are three new little leaf linden trees planted there, hoping to thrive, but otherwise there's not much to draw your eye. The Williams Institutional Christian Methodist Episcopal Church occupies one of the double doors, hardly noticeable, but a presence since the 1950s. But take a time machine back 100 years, and this block was Thriving with a capital T. This was along the Boulevard of Dreams, full of nightclubs and theaters, and dance halls. 7th Avenue and 131st Street was known to some as The Corner, with Connie's Inn and other clubs. Another one nearby was the Hoofers Club, a hangout for top jazz performers and tap dancers. And the biggest and most famous venue of the day was the Lafayette Theatre, with its huge marquee lighting up the night and renowned productions that brought in droves of people from all over the city. Our Tree of Hope stood next to the Lafayette Theatre and is most associated with it, as we'll find out later. [music] It was the height of the Harlem Renaissance, which was, as Professor Cheryl Wall put it, a time when black people redefined themselves and announced themselves into modernity. It was an intellectual and cultural awakening that found its center in Harlem but stretched to other cities around the country like Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D. C., and also to Paris, Berlin, and London. The backdrop was the Great Migration, which was the mass movement of southern rural blacks to northern cities to seek better wages and living conditions and to escape life-threatening mob violence. It was a fresh start in a time of great optimism and the artistic legacy, jazz, dance, fashion, literature, and drama, was a gift to the world. But back to our block on 7th Avenue, what was the Tree of Hope and what did it have to do with all of this? I'd like to introduce you to my new friend, Abra Lee. Abra is a garden historian, storyteller, horticulturist, and former city parks arborist based in Georgia. Her degree in ornamental horticulture is from Auburn University, and she's also an alumna of the prestigious Longwood Gardens Fellows Program, which she completed in 2020. Recently, Abra has worked as a freelance horticultural writer and lecturer. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Fine Gardening, Veranda Magazine, and NPR. Her first book, Conquer the Soil: Black America and the Untold Stories of Our Country's Gardeners, Farmers, and Growers is due out in 2025. Her work seeks to tell love stories about the folklore, history, and art of horticulture. Abra, welcome to the show. Abra Lee: Thank you, Doug. I am happy to be here with you today. Happy 2023. It is so early in the year. First week of the year. Doug Still: Yes. Happy New Year to you too. And I think that I told you in one of our previous conversations that I was also-- Well, I also applied to the Longwood Fellows Program at Longwood Garden way back when. [laughs] Abra Lee: Oh, wow. Doug Still: The early 90s. Abra Lee: Yeah. Doug Still: I went through a grueling three-day interview process, and I did not get in. So, congratulations to you. [laughs] Abra Lee: Thank you. And I will say the process still feels grueling. What's interesting about that is that it may be self-formed by us, the interviewees, because the people at Longwood are wonderful, but it feels intense when you're up there. It really does. Doug Still: Yeah. And Longwood Gardens is so beautiful. It's in the Brandywine Valley in southeastern Pennsylvania. But we're here to talk about the Tree of Hope at your suggestion. I was wondering if you could set the scene for this story. Where was it located and how did the story first come about? Abra Lee: The Tree of Hope was located on 7th Avenue and 131st Street in Harlem. And some people would say 7th Avenue and 132nd Street in Harlem. It is a tree that people gathered under. When I say people, I mean specifically the black community in Harlem. So, at the prime of the Tree of Hope, it is the Roaring 20s, the Harlem Renaissance is happening, black businesses are thriving, black communities are thriving. This is in the era of the early 1900. The post-Reconstruction era of America had occurred in the early 1900s and black people, black communities, many had migrated from the south to the north. So, they're going to New York, places like Harlem, in hopes of seeking a better life. Doug Still: Yeah. I know that it could fill an entire course or encyclopedia about what the Harlem Renaissance was about and everything that happened. But how would you describe it? How is it important to American culture? Abra Lee: The Harlem Renaissance was the part or maybe certainly the first time in America where the illumination of black art, black culture, black literature is "mainstream." It is validated by people outside of the black community as black culture in America being something hyper specific and special to itself. So, these people who are descendants of the formerly enslaved have not only come to America, their ancestors, through way of bondage, they have been stripped of everything they knew throughout the diaspora and recreated their own sound, their own style, their own music, their own art, their own way of acting. Jazz is verbed from this. So, that is what the Harlem Renaissance means. It puts, honestly, America on the map as an artistic contributor to the globe is what it does. Doug Still: Right. And as you were saying, people were migrating from the south to the north and had this area of New York City that became their own. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: There was this flowering of theater in writing and music. Abra Lee: And ideas in community and fashion and business and economics. The Tree of Hope didn't start off being called the Tree of Hope. This is where it gets fun. The Tree of Hope is like any other legend. It's bigger than itself, and it has many iterations and many names. Some people, the old timers, a Harlem native or necessarily, maybe not necessarily a native, but a person who is a part of the Harlem community, they call them Harlemites, many of them said that the Tree of Hope started off being called the Tree of Wisdom or the Tree of Knowledge. It was no different than when you saw people gather in these open-air spaces outside of Europe and have their symposiums and discuss the economy, discuss politics, discuss gossip. And with that, people were able to exchange messages. It was the message board, it was the internet, it was the chatroom, it was the everything for Harlem. Doug Still: What in particular went on this block on 7th Avenue between 131st and 132nd Street? What was it known for? Abra Lee: It was known most famously for the Lafayette Theatre being diagonal to that tree. The Lafayette Theatre was Black Hollywood at the time. It is where the successful performers were doing their acts and their stage shows, whether it was comedy, whether it was music, whether it was theatrical. Or it was a place where hopeful actors who were seeking to be the next person of fame and fortune would stand in front of this tree. What was so significant is that if you were a Broadway manager or a producer, you could walk right outside of that theater and in a moment's notice, grab whatever type of performer that you needed to fill in at the Lafayette Theatre. And that is when it starts becoming the Tree of Hope. I do want to tell you a name that is credited to naming it the Tree of Hope. Of course, there's many iterations. I can't validate this. But the person credited to naming the Tree of Hope, is a person named Lee Whipper. Lee Whipper, I don't know much about their story, but the legend goes that there were some performers who were unable to get paid for their work, and they were gathering under this tree just like anyone else, stage performers. Doug Still: It was probably hot, it was probably summer. Abra Lee: Of course. Doug Still: I'm looking at the old photos, and it's the only [chuckles] tree on the block that I can see. Abra Lee: It's the only tree. Doug Still: So, naturally, they would be underneath the tree. Abra Lee: They would be underneath the tree. What they did is that one of them rub the tree and pretty much prayed that they would get their money, they would get paid for the work they had done. They had done the work, but they hadn't gotten paid. And lo and behold, a few days later, they got their money. And so, word gets out that this tree has magical powers. They said that people have more faith in that tree than they even had in themselves. And that is when it becomes the Tree of Hope. And you're right, there weren't other trees on that street to gather under. It was truly a gathering spot. Doug Still: So, what I read was that it wasn't just during the day, but people gathered underneath the tree all night long. It was like a meeting place. Probably, performances were going on even afterwards at the Lafayette Theatre and people were there on into the night. Abra Lee: Yes. They said that the talk was fast and free up under that tree. [crosstalk] The conversation was fast and free. If you were a gossip columnist, you could get more information from a two-minute conversation under that tree than you could get from a three-column written out of the paper. So, that is what the Tree of Hope was. We're not talking about 10 people, 15 people, 20. We're talking about hundreds, even thousands of people at a time gathered under the street. It sounds like, "Oh, Abra, you're telling us tall tales." Well, guess what, y'all? There are pictures that validate this and show thousands of people on the block lingering, socializing, and meeting, having community, having church up under The Tree of Hope. And so, it was a friend of the community, it was a neighbor, it was everything to Harlem. [music] Doug Still: Next up, I talked more with Abra Lee about the performance venues on the block, some of the famous performers there, and the eventual loss of the Tree of Hope, and what happened. You're listening to This Old Tree. So, I'm looking at one of or I looked at one of the old photos, and the tree wasn't actually directly in front of the Lafayette Theatre. It was right next door. And the establishment, there was Connie's Inn. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: Have you heard of Connie's Inn, or do you know what Connie's Inn was? Abra Lee: Yes, I have Connie's name. The last name is a B. I believe he's a gentleman. And Connie owned it in there. And this was also a person who was a mover and shaker. I think they even call Connie a wheeler and dealer from Harlem. Doug Still: I looked it up. This was Prohibition, and Connie's Inn was a speakeasy. It was established by Connie Immerman and his brothers who emigrated from Latvia. It was a nightclub in the basement that featured acts like Louis Armstrong, Fats Waller, Wilbur Sweatman, and Fletcher Henderson. Like the Cotton Club over on 142nd street, the audience was for whites only. In 1934, it vacated and moved downtown, and the Ubangi Club moved into the spot. The Ubangi Club featured black, cross-dressing, gay, and lesbian performers like Gladys Bentley. There was a lot going on. At Lafayette Theatre, there was Connie's Inn, there's another one called The Hoofers Club. So, all of these establishments had performers, and people would meet under this tree, and probably take jobs in different places. Abra Lee: Yes, absolutely. This is the thing. People would go there to seek a job. But people who had a job, the performers who were successful and already employed in theater knew to pay their respects to that tree. So, where they may not kiss the tree or pray to it, they would certainly touch the tree. This was a tree that people felt superstition about. They really felt that you are going to pay homage to this tree if you want your success to continue. I'm saying that because there was a spiritual connection to this tree in the community. If we think back of the people that are under this tree, that community has built the ancestors that would coincide with their beliefs about nature and the power that it does have. So, it was beyond important. It was family. It was family. Doug Still: Its fame was most intertwined with the Lafayette Theatre. If the Harlem Renaissance mainstreamed the illumination of black culture, as Abra explained, the Lafayette was an early beacon. It was the first major theater to desegregate in 1913 allowing African American theatre goers to sit in the orchestra alongside their white counterparts. The Lafayette staged Broadway hits such as Madame X, and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The musical revue that became known as Darktown Follies popularized two dances, Ballin' the Jack and also the Texas Tommy, which grew into the Lindy Hop. Duke Ellington made his New York debut here. The Lafayette players were the resident stock company, and they performed new plays in classics before almost exclusively African American audiences. Abra Lee: The Lafayette Theatre was known for having the biggest, greatest performers of the day. So, people like the great singer and orator, Paul Robeson, people like Ethel Waters, the famous entertainer, tap dancer, performer, people like Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, who was considered or is considered the greatest tap dancer ever. This is what the Lafayette Theatre produced. And these are names that you and I may recognize today from days of old. There are names beyond their names that may not ring a bell today better, even more legendary to those people. The Lafayette Theatre was Hollywood. It was Hollywood for the black community. It was where you went to change your life, to change your generational wealth. To change your economic status, it was that important. Doug Still: My understanding is, it was a combination of shows from Broadway from downtown, but it was also original shows or plays written by African American playwrights and writers as well. Abra Lee: It was. It was a Black Broadway. It wasn't just Broadway shows, it was comedy shows, it was opera shows, it was theatrical shows. Any type of show that you-- I think you just said vaudeville, that you can relate to entertainment. That is what happened at the Lafayette Theatre. It was something that was known coast to coast in the black community. You got to think this is a time in Harlem where Langston Hughes is roaming the streets. Zora Neale Hurston, the incredible writer, a great friend of Langston Hughes, is roaming the streets. Countee Cullen, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, I mean, the names go on and on. This is when The Tree of Hope is at its prime. So, every name that you can think about, Louis Armstrong, Josephine Baker, that is what is attached to this tree. Doug Still: One name that you mentioned was Ethel Waters. Could you tell me about Ethel Waters and who she was? Abra Lee: Ethel Waters was of her time-- and I am no entertainment historian, but I certainly do know a little bit about her career. If you think of the most famous black Hollywood actresses now, people like-- Think of Octavia Spencer, because I'm an Auburn graduate. You think of other black actresses who have succeeded. I don't know why my mind is blanking, y'all. I'm a horticulturist and I'm sitting here thinking, "I can see a hundred black actresses in front of my face and I'm naming none." [laughter] Doug Still: They were the celebrities of the time. Abra Lee: Yes, they were the celebrities of the time. That is what Ethel Waters was. She had the fame, she had the fortune, she had the following, she had the gossip callers following her, the paparazzi, all of that. That is what Ethel Waters was. She was one of the most famous people in America. [Ethel Waters singing “Dinah”] Doug Still: So, this was before the Apollo Theater. Abra Lee: Right. The Lafayette Theatre precedes the Apollo Theater. What happens is the 1930s come along, and what we know is that is when the Great Depression starts. At the end of the 1920s, and people really were holding out hope that things would turn around, things would change, but unfortunately, that was not the case. The felling, when the Tree of Hope is removed- Doug Still: This was 1934. Abra Lee: -it is considered the beginning of the end of that era in Harlem. And people said, "Harlem was never the same." Doug Still: Now, I understand that the Tree of Hope was removed, because they did a street widening project. The city came in and widened 7th Avenue and had to remove the tree. And so, it was the automobile. This happened everywhere. This happened all throughout New York City. I'm in Providence now. There's one major boulevard called Elmwood Avenue that had a double allee of American elm trees. And in the 1930s, to make room for commuters to drive in and out of the downtown, they widened the street and removed-- There was a big outcry. It was in the newspaper. So, this is not unusual. With the automobile, we lost a lot of tree canopy, unfortunately. Abra Lee: The way that it was reported in the Harlem papers and in the black newspapers around the country, because this was national news. In our community this was the crash heard around the world. It wasn't a stock market crash. It was this tree crash that was heard. Doug Still: [laughs] Abra Lee: The reporters stated that cars had become more important than pedestrians. And so, the city came in, and cut down this tree, and people could not believe what was happening. They said that there was much weeping, there was much wailing, and if you've ever been to a good old-fashioned funeral at a black church or a Baptist church or a country church, you know what that's about. There were trumpeters who brought out their trumpets and started playing the St. Louis Blues- Doug Still: Wow. Abra Lee: -in a slow sound. So, there was a real-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: It was very upsetting. Abra Lee: Oh, my gosh, yes. So upsetting to the point when the Parks Department came through that the people who were witnessing this-- a crowd starts to gather. There's already hundreds of people there daily, but more and more people gather, and someone has the wherewithal to say, "Let me go get my saw, let me go get my axe, let me go get my hatchet, and I am going to start cutting up pieces of the tree." And they started selling the pieces of the tree on the spot. Doug Still: Right. They kept it and they handed it out, and some people sold it. I don't know how they were able to sell it. Abra Lee: It's the Tree of Hope and I got the saw. Doug, you don't have a saw and you want this big chunk, you can't just walk off with it for free. How are you going to get it to your house? And it is the 1930s. There's hustle in there too now. These are business folks. Doug Still: Right. Abra Lee: So, yes. There were people who bought portions of the tree. There were people who grabbed portions of the tree. They say, "Look, if you didn't have any money, you were picking up the sawdust off the street and putting it in your pocket for this tree." People were taking roots off of this tree and that was how important it was to them. And it was so important that once the tree was completely felled and gone, there were people in Harlem that avoided that area altogether moving forward. They didn't want any part of it, because they believed it to be a bad omen when that tree was removed. Doug Still: Here's the title from a New York Times article about it from August 21st, 1934. WISHING TREE'S END SADDENS HARLEM; ' Charmed Circle' Where Noted Stage Folk Prayed for Jobs Is Bereft of Fetish. WOOD CUT FOR SOUVENIRS 400 Watch in Gloom as Source of Old Superstition Falls in Widening of 7th Avenue. Abra then brought out an article of her own from her files. Abra Lee: It's so interesting. I love these headlines. I don't know if you've seen this one. It says, "It was murder, Jack. " People were serious about it. That was a first-person account of the tree being felled. Doug Still: Oh, wow. Abra Lee: You can see the people sawing. I don't know if you can see that. You can see the folks sawing the tree up. Doug Still: Wow. Abra Lee: You can see, "It was murder, Jack-" Doug Still: Where did you find that? Abra Lee: So, that's the thing. You mentioned it was written in the New York Times. This was in the Amsterdam News, which was a black paper. The Times was the Times, but this was the news to them. Doug Still: So, pieces of the tree are being sold, taken away as souvenirs. I'd like to get to one in particular. There was a piece of that tree taken by or purchased by, perhaps, Ralph Cooper, Sr. Abra Lee: That's correct. And knowing his influence, knowing who he was and his relationship as an entertainer, as a famed person of that community. Doug Still: Well, who was Ralph Cooper, Sr.? Abra Lee: Ralph Cooper was a performer. He was an MC. He was a man about town. He was a very handsome black man. He was the Clark Gable. Gone with the Wind was popular at the time, and he was considered dark Gable, which I think is hilarious, because he's a black guy. He's just this dashing, charming, beloved member of the entertainment community. And knowing who he was, his relationship to the Lafayette Theatre, being a performer there, having a great business relationship, I highly doubt he paid for his hunk of the tree. But the way legend has it is that he had a portion of this tree when the tree was cut and had a stagehand mounted stage left at the Apollo theater. Doug Still: So, the Apollo just opened. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: The Apollo Theater on 125th Street had actually opened in the early 1920s, but it became a venue for black performers and patrons in 1934, becoming more like what we know it is today. Abra Lee: But the Apollo had been known for its amateur nights. When you're at the Lafayette and you're a professional at this point or you're trying to become a famous professional, Apollo is amateur night and that is what it is known for, even to this day. They still have some amateur nights at the Apollo. Maybe not like the Heyday, but they're still there. And Ralph Cooper was the MC, ABC, which was a new broadcasting company in America at the time had gone to the Apollo in November of 1934 to live broadcast nationally, the amateur night. And on that night, Ralph Cooper, and perhaps before, maybe not specifically on that night, he had someone mount a portion of the Tree of Hope on the stage. And the intent was that you needed to touch this tree. This tree was a part of the community, and you needed it to hope that you weren't going to get booed off the stage. Because at the Apollo during the amateur night, your success and your failure is judged by the audience. They have a gentleman called the Sandman that would come out with a hook and pull you off the stage if you were booed. Doug Still: [laughs] Abra Lee: At one point, they would shoot you off the stage. Not literal bullets, but blanks, and the audience would react to that, these blank guns, and they go pow, pow, pow, and shoot you off. But if you weren't booed off the stage and the audience was roaring and excited about you, it could change your life and that was what Ralph Cooper brought. He brought the national fame and national attention through radio, honestly, what we're doing now, and that is what I feel like illuminated the Tree of Hope into infamy, to be honest. Doug Still: So, he took a slice of that tree. It was about a foot tall and about 18 inches in diameter, and he had a stagehand take it, shellac it, and apparently put it on a gold pedestal. Abra Lee: That's right. And mount it. That's right. Doug Still: It's right on stage. Abra Lee: To this day. Doug Still: It's been on stage until this day. Abra Lee: Since 1934, it has been on that stage. It has. If anyone who goes on the stage of the Apollo-- I can tell you, I have watched many an amateur night on Showtime at the Apollo when I was growing up. If you walk past the stump and don't touch it, they won't even let you walk up to the mic without touching that tree stump. Doug Still: Yeah. You can't let them go on without touching the Tree of Hope. Abra Lee: No. And if you don't, you honestly start off on the wrong foot, the audience. You really do. So, it is that important. I mean, we're talking almost 100 years now. |