The Ginkgo at Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple

This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Ginkgo at Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple - Transcript
Season 3, Episode 1
May 19, 2025

Doug Still  00:00
You're listening to This Old Tree, the show about heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm Doug Still. 

You may already be familiar with photos online of one particular, astonishing ginkgo tree. Every fall, images of this tree go viral, likely captured by a drone. It stands alone in a courtyard, towering over a compound of one story structures like a dyed stick of rock candy. The ginkgo’s upright shape blazes yellow against the green hillside behind it. The ground below is just as eye-catching. A carpet of golden leaves sprays outward from the tree, dusting the earth with pure heavenly light. It's a stunning annual display from this 1,400 year old organism, now shared around the world through the internet. 

[Tang Dynasty folk music]

Arguably, the tree has become the most famous Ginkgo biloba in the world, and yet most of us outside of China know absolutely nothing about it, except its image. Yes, it's in China. And here are some basic, easily searchable facts. The tree is housed within the Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple located in the mountains on the outskirts of the city of Xi’an in the country's Northwest interior. The temple was built in the year 628, at the beginning of the reign of Li Shimin, otherwise known as Emperor Taizong of Tang. It was the beginning of the Tang Dynasty, considered to be a golden age in Chinese history. 

Legend has it that the tree was planted within the temple by Emperor Taizong himself, one of the country's most revered leaders. Who was he and could it be true? Why a ginkgo tree? To find the answers to these questions, I interviewed a professor from Xi’an, Dr Ruihong Di of Northwest University. She is an expert on the early Tang Dynasty and Buddhism in China. I also learned about some of the remarkable history of Ginkgo biloba from botanist Peter Del Tredici, former senior research scientist at the Arnold Arboretum in Boston. Ginkgo is one of the oldest surviving tree species in the world, dating back almost 250 million years. But it was nearly lost. Did Buddhist monasteries in China preserve this ancient species from extinction? 

And one last treat for you. There are different takes on this ginkgo tree’s legend. We'll hear a related Chinese tale that includes Emperor Taizong, a fortune telling sorcerer, and a dragon. 

So join me to investigate the legend of the Ginkgo at Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree.

This Old Tree song - Dee Lee  02:58


Doug Still  03:17
The Traditional Folk Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple, part one.

[Tang Dynasty folk music]

Traditional Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple  03:25
Rich farmland surrounded the great City of Chang’an, from the Jinghe River down to the Zhongnan mountains. However, a terrible drought had stricken the land, causing great concern among farmers and the people of the region. Propitiously, a local deity had the power to change the weather and the fortunes of the people. He was known as the Dragon King of the Jinghe River. He had command over bodies of water, and was the dispenser of rain. However, he could not act without imperial decree from the Jade Emperor, the greatest of primordial gods. 

But the Dragon King of the Jinghe River had other concerns. He had heard from his spies that a certain sorcerer named Yuan Tiangang was tipping off local fishermen about where the fish were in the Jinghe River, threatening the stability of life in the river. The Dragon King transformed himself into a human and walked into the center of Chang’an to find Yuan Tiangan and confront him. 

The Dragon King found the sorcerer Yuan Tiangan, who was fortune-telling in the streets. He could have easily killed him, but instead tried to find out if he could be of more use to the Dragon King. In disguise, he offered the sorcerer a bet. He could reap great rewards if he could predict the Jade Emperor’s decree regarding the arrival of much needed rain, but punishment if he could not. As the rain was actually controlled by the Dragon King, he felt he could discredit him if it came to that. 

Yuan Tiangan accepted the bet and made his rain prediction. Later, the Dragon King received the Jade Emperor's official rain decree, and to his surprise and dismay it exactly matched the sorcerer’s prediction. The Dragon King didn’t want to lose, and took a chance. Thinking the Jade Emperor wouldn’t notice, the Dragon King secretly changed the amount and timing of the rain. He then went back to Chang’an to tell the sorcerer he was wrong. 

Unfortunately for the Dragon King, Yuan Tiangan saw through the Dragon King’s human disguise and knew it was him all along. He had tricked him. He informed the Dragon King that he had violated the Jade Emperor’s decree, and that he would soon be arrested and killed. Defeated, the Dragon King threw himself at the sorcerer’s mercy. Yuan Tiangan was moved, and foretold that his arrest was going to be made by Wei Zheng, the Prime Minister to Li Shimin, the new Emperor Taizong of Tang. He told him that he must appeal to Emperor Taizong himself.


Doug Still  06:51
The Ginkgo at Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple is a tourist magnet. Tens of thousands of tree lovers make their way to see it during peak foliage season each year, sometimes as many as 3,000 per day. People might wait in the queue for three hours, the line forming outside before it snakes through the temple. Eventually, visitors enter a courtyard with the golden ginkgo tree, moving slowly and reverently around a rectangular fence installed to protect the tree from the crowds. It's worth it, not only for the visual drama, but to share a few moments with something very, very old, but still living, associated with the great emperor Taizong. 

Who was Li Shimin, and what do we know about him? It turns out a lot. To get a look back 1,400 years to the beginning of the Tang Dynasty and just before it, I spoke with Professor Ruihong 
Di who teaches locally in Xi’an, China. Although she understands English, she wished to speak in Mandarin, so her answers are translated via Google Translate and overdubbed here. Apologies in advance for any inexact pronunciations. We did our best. 

Thank you so much for joining me for an interview on This Old Tree.

Ruihong Di  08:16
Very happy, very happy. I'm happy to answer your questions.

Doug Still  08:19
How long have you been studying Buddhism in the time of the Tang Dynasty, and what are your specific interests?

Ruihong Di  08:30
I started studying Buddhist history about 11 years ago, and I started researching Tang Dynasty Buddhism eight years ago.

Doug Still  08:42
And now you're teaching at the University of Arizona for one year?

Ruihong Di  08:48
Yes, I am going to do research in the religious studies department at the University of Arizona.

Doug Still  08:57
How long had Buddhism been in China? When was it first introduced?

Ruihong Di  09:06
According to current academic research, when did Buddhism enter China? It was probably during the Eastern Han Dynasty and the Western Han dynasty, which is more than 2,000 years ago. My research mainly focuses on the belief in Buddhism among the city and government officials in the Tang Dynasty. Did they believe in Buddhism? What influence did Buddhism have on them? Because this group of people held power, they would greatly influence the culture of the society at that time and the formulation of policies, and they would also have a deep influence on the Buddhist community. So I mainly studied Buddhist teaching and its influence on this group of civil servants and government officials.

Doug Still  09:51
I asked about the origins of the Tang Dynasty and how Li Shimin came to power.

Ruihong Di  10:00
The first ruler of the Tang Dynasty was Li Yuan, who overthrew the rule of the Sui Dynasty. Then he established the Tang Dynasty. He was known as Emperor Gaozu of Tang. Li Yuan was the father of Li Shimin, yes, yes, yes, yes. It was Li Yuan who supervised them in Xi’an, it was called Chang'an at that time, that is the ancient name of Xi’an.

Doug Still  10:28
For context later, here's some background about China just prior to the Tang Dynasty. The Sui Dynasty, ruled by Emperor Yang, was disintegrating under the weight of heavy taxation and other trials. There were costly wars, like one waged on the Korean peninsula. The burden was compounded by the need to fund overly ambitious construction projects. Emperor Yang moved the capital from Xi’an, then known as Chang'an, to another city called Luoyang, over 200 miles away based on the advice of a fortune teller. In order to connect the two cities, they undertook the construction of the Grand Canal, an extension of the Great Wall. This had a human toll, as masses groaned under the work, and thus a political one as well. With multiple pressures, the Emperor's administration splintered, culminating with the Emperor's assassination in 618 by one of his ministers. 

Open conflict broke out between factions vying for the throne. One faction was the house of Tang, led by Li Yuan. Li Yuan was an aristocrat, and he was Li Shimin’s father. Li Shimin, only in his early 20s, became his father's chief general due to his talent and ambition. After three years of bloody turmoil, Li Shimin led his father's army to victory, and Li Yuan became the emperor - Emperor Gaozu he was called. But this wasn't over. The Emperor's power hungry sons battled each other to be first in line. Li Shimin outmaneuvered them too, ultimately killing his two brothers. The ruthless fratricide would come to weigh on him greatly later in life. Soon after, his father Li Yuan abdicated and Li Shimin became emperor Taizong of Tang. Much of this history I'm sharing I credit to The Ruler's Guide: China's Greatest Emperor and His Timeless Secrets of Success by Chinghua Tang. 

But what kind of an emperor would Li Shimin be? Was Emperor Taizong considered a good ruler? What is he most known for?

Ruihong Di  12:45
Yes, Li Shimin is currently considered to be a very great emperor and ruler in Chinese history. The main reason is that he implemented a very enlightened governance policy which gave the Tang Dynasty a very good start. The development of the Tang Dynasty after the initial founding was closely related to these policies implemented by Li Shimin, the Emperor Taizong of Tang. Therefore, he laid the foundation for the cultural inclusiveness of the entire Tang Dynasty, its economic, cultural and political prosperity and development. He was also the most important reason why the tang Empire became a great empire that attracted the attention of the whole world. 

The Zhenguan Reign was the era in which Li Shimin was in power. The era name is what we Chinese use to refer to the period of time when an emperor was in power. The reign title at that time was Zhenguan, and it lasted for nearly 30 years, or 29 years, if I remember correctly. The Zhenguan Reign is considered to be the period in the Tang Dynasty when the economy developed most rapidly, and the politics were most enlightened.

Doug Still  14:05
But in the early years of his reign, it was unclear how Li Shimin would respond after the violence and turmoil of his ascension to the throne. The inexperienced, young emperor grappled with his newfound power. Imperial historians wrote that he wished for peace and stability for the Chinese people and perhaps some redemption for himself. He sought answers to questions like, what makes a good emperor? What did good government look like? How could he avoid the mistakes of the previous rulers? Who could he trust? 

Very early on, Li Shimin assembled a team of advisors. To this day, he is famous for his philosophy surrounding the guidance from his gifted ministers. In contrast to the Sui rulers, Emperor Taizong knew that in order to receive the best advice, those close to him must speak their minds and contradict him when necessary. This frank openness brought humility and self knowledge. A court historian was charged with recording the conversations between the Emperor and his ministers, which became known as the “Zhenghuang Executive Guide,” a classic text on leadership and statecraft throughout the following millennia, and to this day. The most important confidant of all was a man named Wei Zheng, a figure in the folktale we are listening to.

Ruihong Di  15:35
Wei Zhang was one of the people appointed by Li Shimin at that time. According to today's understanding, he should be called the Prime Minister, which means that his official position is very, very high. He is also considered by us to be a very great politician and thinker in Chinese history. He was a writer and historian, but his main contribution is in politics. 

Then, what about him? We Chinese attach great importance to the writing of history. So in the early days of Li Shimin's reign, Wei Zheng was appointed to be in charge of writing the history of the previous generation. So at that time, Wei Zheng was in charge of compiling historical books such as Sui Shu, or the book of Sui, the previous dynasty. So while he was primarily a politician, he was also a historian. He had a huge influence on Taizong, because he was quite direct in his speech. He was able to give Taizong some suggestions which were quite skillful, and Taizong would listen to him. He would also correct some of Taizong’s inappropriate practices. Then what? This allowed Tang Taizong to have a more clear political policy.

Doug Still  16:55
An entire episode could be devoted to Wei Zheng. His approach, and that of the emperor, was largely Taoist in philosophy, or at least the histories painted it as such. Emperor Taizong was not Buddhist. Buddhism was a religion from India that had grown within all social classes for centuries in China by this time. So if our famous ginkgo tree was planted in a Buddhist temple, how does Buddhism fit into the legend of Emperor Taizong and a ginkgo tree? 

What were Tang Taizong’s views on Buddhism as a young emperor?

Ruihong Di  17:36
Emperor Taizong’s policy toward Buddhism in his early years was relatively positive. However, in the early days of his reign, his policy towards Buddhism was to approach it very cautiously. To maintain his rule the state strictly controlled the religion. There is a lot of research in the academic community that proves that Emperor Taizong of Tang’s policy toward Buddhism had two sides. On the one hand, he wanted to take advantage of the status of Buddhism in the whole society, because Buddhism has many believers and followers. Embracing Buddhism helped stabilize the entire society. But he was also afraid that Buddhism would become too powerful and affect his rule, so he had to restrict the development of Buddhism. This is what Li Shimin did in the early days. For example, if an ordinary person wanted to become a monk, he needed to get a permit from the government. At that time, the government had to give him a policy so he can become a monk, or bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. This limited the number of monks in a temple in each state to a certain number, which was a very strict policy.

Doug Still  18:54
Despite its popularity, Emperor Taizong did not view Buddhism as truly Chinese. Within the context of Chinese history, Emperor Taizong was not alone in his distrust of Buddhism and its power over the people. Periods of peaceful acceptance through the centuries were interrupted with periodic purging and destruction of Buddhist temples, including a severe crackdown 300 years later at the end of the Tang Dynasty. Even while researching this story, I found that history repeats itself. I learned that the Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple that stands today is not the original. It was rebuilt in the 1990s and had been serving as a school prior to its restoration by Buddhist monks. I searched everywhere online about what had happened to the temple previously, but could find nothing in print. I later learned from Professor Di that the temple had been destroyed in 1949 during the Chinese Revolution. Apparently, the carnage did not include the ancient ginkgo tree. 

Could anyone soften Emperor Taizong's wary and strict view of Buddhism? Enter Xuanzang, possibly the most famous Buddhist in Chinese history. But you'll find out what happened later in the episode. First, I'd like to take a close look at a different part of the story, the ginkgo tree itself. I'll share my conversation with Peter Del Tredici of Arnold Arboretum, who has spent his life studying Ginkgo biloba. He sheds some light on the ecological history of this remarkable tree species and its existence, both inside and outside of temples in China. What is it about a ginkgo that makes it a special tree for important places? 

[This Old Tree theme music]

Coming up after the break. You're listening to This Old Tree. 

The Traditional Folk Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple, part two.

[Tang Dynasty folk music]

Traditional Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple  21:05
At the time, Emperor Taizong, Li Shimin, led Prime Minister Wei Zheng and 18 guards to hunt in the Zhongnan mountains. One night he had a dream. In the dream, the Dragon King of Jinghe River begged him for his life. Li Shimin was moved, and promised to spare his life. He promised not to let Wei Zheng proceed to the Southern Heavenly Gate, the gateway connecting the mortal world to the heavenly realm. This way, Wei Zheng would not receive his instructions from the Jade Emperor to arrest and kill the Dragon King. 

After waking up, he saw clouds and mist in the mountains, and also a fresh spring gushing out of a stone cave. He drank water from the spring which he thought was very sweet.  He named it “the divine spring.” 
That same night, Prime Minister Wei Zheng got drunk and dreamed that he went to the Southern Heavenly Gate. where he received orders from the Jade Emperor. Acting on them, he beheaded the Dragon King of Jinghe River. The dragon’s head was thrown to the north of Chang’an City, and it turned into what became known as “Dragon Head Plain". The dragon tail, which was 18 feet long, was abandoned to the west of Chang’an City and became the “18 Foot Ditch.” 

After this dream of beheading and killing the Dragon King, Wei Zheng was so frightened that he broke out in a cold sweat. He reported this to Emperor Taizong. Emperor Taizong was also shocked and said, “I too dreamt of a green dragon. He begged me for help the other day, and I promised to stop you from going to the Southern Heavenly Gate. I secretly ordered the 18 guards not to let you leave. Now I have broken my promise to the green dragon. What should I do?”

Doug Still  23:22
Peter Del Tredici is a horticulturalist and a botanist who has worked for Harvard University since 1972 both at the Harvard forest and at Arnold Arboretum in Boston. At the arboretum, he worked his way through multiple roles as the assistant plant propagator; curator of the Lars Anderson Bonsai Collection; editor of Arnoldia, the Arboretum's distinguished journal; Director of Living Collections; and Senior Research Scientist. Over the past 15 years, his work has focused on urban ecology and the important role that plants play in making cities more livable. To wide acclaim, he's published two editions of his book, Wild Urban Plants of the Northeast: A Field Guide. And in 2013, Peter was awarded the prestigious Veatch Gold Medal by the Royal Horticultural Society in the UK in recognition of services given in the advancement of the science and practice of horticulture. 

Peter, thanks for joining me today on This Old Tree. 

Peter Del Tredici 
My pleasure. 

Doug Still
How were you first drawn to the study of ginkgo trees, and is there a word for that?

Peter Del Tredici  24:31
Ginkologist? I don't know… 

Doug Still
Are you a Ginkologist?

Peter Del Tredici
…or Ginkgo ologist? I'm not sure exactly. [laughter] I don't refer to that. But I am, you know, when I first started working at the Arnold Arboretum, I wrote my first article about Ginkgo biloba in 1981 and the history of its introduction into the United States, to North America. I should say, then - when I went to graduate school - I took an evolution course. I had to write a paper from for the evolution course. And I decided, well, I'm going to write something about Ginkgo biloba. And then one thing led to another, and it became the subject of my PhD research. And the topic that I selected was I wanted to look at Ginkgo biloba growing as a wild plant in China, to study ginkgo in Asia. It was in 1989.

Doug Still  25:28
That sounds so exciting. 

Peter Del Tredici  25:30
It was pretty exciting because it happened right after, you know, just about two or three months after the Tiananmen Square demonstrations. And so there weren't a lot of tourists going to China then, but I needed to go to finish my PhD, so I talked to my collaborator. He said, “Absolutely, we want you to come. We don't want people to be boycotting us, because then the government can do whatever they want. We want people to come to China, and that would be good for us.” So that was enough.

Doug Still  26:01
What was your main research question?

Peter Del Tredici  26:03
Well, my main research question - one of the debates was - is ginkgo, does it still exist as a wild tree, or does it only exist in cultivation? And a lot of the early scientists at the Arnold Arboretum, the Director Sargent and the collector E.H. Wilson said it was preserved from extinction by being cultivated in temples in Asia. And that didn't quite make a lot of sense to me, and there really wasn't any literature about it. There were some mentions of areas where ginkgo might be wild, but nothing was published about it, at least not in English. And so I got a grant to go to China and to actually visit one of these sites which, supposedly, was one of the areas where ginkgo grows as a wild tree.

Doug Still  26:54
How did you hear about that area?

Peter Del Tredici  26:55
Well, that area, there was a Chinese botanist who was a director of the Morris Arboretum in Philadelphia, and he had grown up in China, and he had access to the Chinese literature. And he mentioned that this was one of the sites that the Chinese had identified as a possible homeland for Ginkgo biloba.

Doug Still  27:17
I see, that makes sense. Was it also near a temple? Or, probably, everything is near a temple.

Peter Del Tredici  27:24
Yes, there's a temple right there, and it's a little bit of a chicken and or the egg question, because, you know, did they put the temple there because there was a forest that was in good shape there, or did the fact that the temple was there, is that act to preserve the forest? So it's hard to say exactly which came first, the forest or the temple.

Doug Still  27:45
Exciting research, and can it be found? You know, did you publish from that? 

Peter Del Tredici  27:51
I did. I published my, you know, an article. I had two Chinese collaborators with me who helped me with the research. And you know, help me make 1989 it was hard for foreigners to get around China without having a collaborator, so we published an article in conservation biology in 1992 describing what we found in the forest surrounding on this mountain called Tian Musan.

Doug Still  28:20
So what is it about ginkgo taxonomy that makes it unique? And how would you describe it?

Peter Del Tredici  28:28
Well, ginkgo is one of these amazing trees that dates back to, you know, even before the dinosaurs. There are the ancestors of ginkgo. And there's, it has no living relatives. It's sort of, it's related to conifers from an evolutionary point of view, and it's related to another group of plants called cycads. But it's sort of in-between the conifers and the cycads, and all of its relatives went extinct as it happens with so many organisms from that era. But ginkgo, for some reason, managed to survive, and that became, you know, what is it about ginkgo that allowed it to survive when all of its relatives went extinct?

Doug Still  29:12
Amazing. What do you think the answer is?  

Peter Del Tredici  29:16
Well, that was one of the most interesting things about my research, is that when I actually visited this forest, we found almost 200 trees growing in the woodlands. There were some near the temple, growing not too far from where the temple was. But then in the woods quite away from the temple, there were quite a few ginkgos growing in association with a lot of very old trees. So as far as I was concerned, it was pretty much a remnant of a wild forest. And that quite a number of the trees  - I forget the actual number - a lot of them were single stem trees, pretty big, tall, growing on Steam. Deep slopes where nobody would have planted them, but a lot of were multi stemmed, and maybe somebody had cut them down, or maybe there'd been some damage from landslides or something like that. But they have that they had sprouted from the base, which is not something that I had seen much of when looking at the tree as a cultivated plant in North America. I'm used to seeing it as a single stem tree. 

And so, because I'm a plant morphologist, I was interested in, what's the morphological origin of these stems? And I came to realize that ginkgo, when you grow it as a seedling, it has this capacity to form a swollen base. It's called a lignotuber, and if you damage the main trunk, it sends up new shoots from the base. So this ability to re sprout, which is there aren't a lot of conifers that can do that, so it's one of the things that allows ginkgo to survive traumatic disturbance, and I suspect that ginkgo invented this strategy of being able to sprout and which allowed it to persist once it got established. And the longer a tree lives, the greater the chances of it being able to reproduce from seed eventually. So from an evolutionary point of view, if you expand the lifespan of the individual, you increase the chances of successful reproduction from seed. 

Doug Still  31:25
Also, the fact that it was on a slope. You know, a lot of old growth remnants are on slopes because they just weren't cut down for agriculture or anything like that. So that makes sense. 

Peter Del Tredici  31:36
Yes, and it was steep slopes. They weren't just, you know. And ginkgo was growing in areas where there'd been some land disturbance, and they were clearly not planted by anybody there.

Doug Still  31:50
So you mentioned ginkgo as a conifer. I know it's a gymnosperm. It's a gymnosperm, right? 

Peter Del Tredici
Exactly.

Doug Still
Is it a conifer? 

Peter Del Tredici  32:01
No, it's in between the cycads and the conifers. So, it has, the wood is very similar to the wood of conifers, but its reproductive system is totally - it's like the cycad reproductive system. So it has attributes of both of these groups.

Doug Still  32:17
Right, which is a naked seed, not a covered seed.  

Peter Del Tredici  32:20
Well, it's not really a naked seed. That's what the word gymnosperm means. It just doesn't mean it has a fruit. If you call it the ginkgo nuts that are, you know, those are - that's the whole seed, the thing that falls from the tree. It's got a fleshy covering, but that's not technically naked.

Doug Still  32:40
Got it. It gets confusing. 

Peter Del Tredici
It is confusing. (chuckling)

Doug Still
Yes, so how far back in time are ginkgos found in the fossil record?

Peter Del Tredici  32:53
Well, the distant ancestors of ginkgo go back 170 million years or so. The genus ginkgo, that is related to which, you could say, are the closest relatives of the modern Ginkgo biloba, that goes back about 120 million years ago. [Wow] You know, that's when you could say, oh, this is when the genus ginkgo, as we know it today, first made its appearance. And the leaves were very similar to the modern ginkgo, but the fruits were much smaller, and they were not - they had two ovules per peduncle, it's called - so the arrangement of the seeds, that's when that evolved, 120 million years ago. But they were much smaller than the seeds that are produced by the modern Ginkgo biloba.

Doug Still  33:49
Were ginkgoes spread across the northern hemisphere?

Peter Del Tredici  33:53
Absolutely, there were quite a few. There's a ginkgo petrified forest in Central Washington, Vantage Washington, and it's an amazing place. You have all these big old ginkgo logs that are petrified on the ground. And it was not on the east coast of North America, but it was definitely in the west coast and central North America, and then in Europe as well.

Doug Still  34:19
Well, they're here now. [laughter] Where do ginkgos naturally thrive? How do we know what a ginkgo forest might have looked like?

Peter Del Tredici  34:31
Well, I visited three different locations in China where there are these remnant ginkgo forests. And you can see that ginkgo is growing next to the massive yew trees. And, you know, the trees in the surrounding forests are huge, and they're very diverse. They're not planted forests or anything like that. They're wild forests, but they're surrounded by agriculture, and they're just these little remnant patches of, you know, 10 or 20 acres, because all the land in China is on these steep slopes, it's terraced. But then there are certain areas that are, they just didn't bother terracing them. They're too steep. And the forests were preserved. So you can see ginkgo growing as part of these remnant forests there, along with Liquidambar and some amazing trees. But they're tiny little patches, [yeah] and there are no temples around them necessarily, in these areas in central China where I've also visited.

Doug Still  35:31
It must be really cool to see it in the wild. I would love that.

Peter Del Tredici  35:35
It is. These are known as ethnic minority areas. They're not settled by the Han, the people that make up the majority of the Chinese population. They were settled by people from Southeast Asia more, and so they had no tradition of using ginkgo. So when they settled the area, they just left the ginkgo there. That's kind of amazing to see that. So there's a big cultural aspect to this too. 

Doug Still
I have a question regarding pests and diseases, because there really aren't any that we know of that drastically affect ginkgo trees. 

Peter Del Tredici
Well, there are a few, actually. When you grow up to 10 million of them in South Carolina, you find some of the - a few insects spread from the cotton and the soybeans.

Doug Still  36:21
If you've got a monoculture, things develop.

Peter Del Tredici  36:25
Yeah, and in China, there are a few pests and diseases, but none of them are very serious. So generally in the literature, people say, well, ginkgo just outlasted all of its pests and pathogens. And the ginkgo compounds that are, you know, make it a useful medicinal plant also inhibit insect feeding. So the production of these medicinal compounds is probably associated with a form of protection against pests and pathogens. 

Doug Still
I see, I was going to ask you about that. 

Peter Del Tredici
They don't just do it to protect people. 

Doug Still  37:03
Right, right, to sell on health food store shelves and things like that. I wanted to ask you about monasteries, because the subject, obviously of this story, features a ginkgo tree in a monastery [okay] or a Buddhist temple. Why were ginkgo trees planted in monasteries and in temples?

Peter Del Tredici  37:23
Well, you know, as I said earlier, early American and European scientists who visited Asia - Japan, Korea and China - the biggest ginkgo trees they saw were in temples. And so they said, “Well, this is how ginkgo was saved.” They didn't visit any of these remnant forests that I talked about. And so, one thing that's really interesting is inside the smelly seed. Ginkgo seeds don't smell very good, as a lot of people know, but inside is an edible nut. And the earliest references to ginkgo are about its seeds. And the fact is, that that way, it was an important food plant. 

And so it was probably preserved because it was a food plant, but the Chinese recognized that it was an unusual tree. There's something special about it. It had a very limited distribution in China. It was not common - now it is, because it's planted everywhere -  but these remnant forests are scattered along the valley of the Yangtze River. But they're scattered over a long distance, and for whatever reason, and I can't answer your question of why they chose to plant that in association with the temples, but they nevertheless did that. First in China, and then when the Chinese, you know, when Buddhism moved to - and Taoism - moved to other parts of Asia, Korea and Japan, the monks from China - who are responsible for bringing those religions to those countries - they brought the gingko tree with them. And so, associated with the building of the temples was the planting of the ginkgo trees. Now it's hard, there's no evidence for this, but that's the speculation. 

Doug Still  39:21
So, a food source. But also there's something special and unique about it that made people feel something.

Peter Del Tredici  39:27
Yes, and it's a special tree, and it became associated with the establishment of these temples. Particularly in Japan, when Buddhism spread in Japan, the temple planting with the ginkgo trees. And Korea as well,

Doug Still  39:44
and also, probably just their shape is conducive to being inside a structure because they're tall. They’re tall and narrow.

Peter Del Tredici  39:52
And they're tolerant of all sorts of conditions, and they live for… a lot of the oldest ginkgos in - and certainly in Japan and Korea - are associated with temples.

Doug Still  40:02
So people do eat the nuts?

Peter Del Tredici  40:07
Absolutely, that's a big business in Asia producing ginkgo nuts. 

Doug Still  40:11
Do you know what some of the delicacies are? What do they make from it?  

Peter Del Tredici  40:15
Oh you can, well, you sort of pan fry them, and you can mix them with rice. They're a little bit toxic, so you're not supposed to ever eat more than five at one time. Or some people say seven at one time.

Doug Still  40:30
More than seven and you're feeling it. [laughter]

Peter Del Tredici  40:34
Well, it's a special thing. So in Japan, they boil them in sugar, so they're a little bit sweet. They have the texture of a chestnut. But you take them, they serve you after dinner, and it counteracts the effects of drinking too much alcohol. So that's the tradition in Japan.

Doug Still  40:54
I see, oh, I didn't know that. Thank you. When was the tree named? 

Peter Del Tredici  40:58
That was named by Linnaeus. And they, the British, changed it because they didn't like the fact that it was not an English word. And they called it the Maidenhair Tree. I can't remember the Latin name that they use for it, but it took a long time to settle it. Ginkgo was the appropriate name for it.

Doug Still  41:21
Yeah, nobody really calls it the Maidenhair tree. Well, sometimes, sometimes.  

Peter Del Tredici  41:26
Well, that’s because the shape of the leaf is like the leaf produced by the maidenhair fern.  

Doug Still  41:32
Nice try. Nice try. It is hard to remember, though, does the “K” come before the “G” or the “G” before the “K”? I sometimes make typos.

Speaker 2  41:41
Yeah, “Gink-go.”

Doug Still  41:45
I think that ginkgo trees are one of the most popular trees. You know, you could just be a casual tree advocate, and people just love ginkgo trees and the shape of the leaves and decorative items from ginkgos. What do you think it is about ginkgos that captures the imagination? 

Peter Del Tredici  42:03
Well, for one thing, you know, they're easy to recognize. There's nothing else that looks like a ginkgo tree. It's not like a cherry tree or an oak tree that you know, there's a lot of different kinds of oak trees, and telling them apart is a challenge for most people. But the ginkgo, there's only one species. So even the most botanically illiterate person in New York City, where ginkgo is very common, everybody recognizes the ginkgo. And when they turn that bright yellow in the fall, it's hard to miss them. And so you're completely right. It is. It's a tree that everybody recognizes, and it's become super popular, I'd say, over the last 20 years, because it's not invasive. It doesn't spread and take over. And if you plant it, and it's tolerant of a wide range of ecological conditions, it will survive. So if conditions are really bad, it grows very slowly, but if conditions are good, it will grow very quickly so it can adapt to the resources that are available on the sites where it is planted. And it's amazingly tolerant of urban conditions, absolutely.

Doug Still  43:13
And I think people secretly love to hate the smelly fruit. You know, people always bring that up with me, but they're smiling and seem happy. It's a contradiction. Now, for the most part, because of the seeds, male ginkgos are primarily what you can get from nurseries. You buy the male so that the fruit doesn't drop on sidewalks. But occasionally I'll get someone that asks for a female ginkgo tree, and that makes me happy for some reason, that somebody values that.

Peter Del Tredici  43:48
Well, in Asia, what's interesting is they selectively plant the female trees. They don't selectively plant the male trees because they want the nuts. And people, if you have a female tree that's shedding its seeds, people will always come and pick them up and harvest them.

Doug Still  44:04
What is it about ginkgo trees that fascinates you the most and has kept you going all these years studying Ginkgo biloba?

Peter Del Tredici  44:12
Well, everything, because ginkgo doesn't have any relatives from a botanical point of view, everything about it is unique. And so every time I do any research project on Ginko biloba, I discover something unusual. So it's just a totally fascinating tree. And this whole question of, “Why does it still exist when all of its relatives have gone extinct?” is a really interesting question. And because I've been working on ginkgo so long, I keep learning stuff about the tree that I never realized.

Doug Still  44:50
Well, it's fascinating. I'll include links to some of your work in the show notes so people can read more. Thank you so much for joining me. I learned a lot about ginkgos, and it was such an enjoyable talk.

Peter Del Tredici  45:04
Well, it's a pleasure. I'm glad I can be of service to you in this, but it's an amazing tree, and the more I study it, the more fascinating it becomes.

Doug Still  45:16
We’re going to take another short break. When we come back, I'll continue my conversation with Professor Ruihong Di about Buddhism in the early Tang Dynasty. A monk shifts Emperor Taizong’s view of this gentle religion. Could this have led to the planting of a ginkgo tree at Gu Guanyin Temple in the Zhongnan Mountains near Chang'an, aka Xian? 

[This Old Tree theme music]

This is, This Old Tree. 

[Tang Dynasty folk music]

Here is part three of the Traditional Folk Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple. We left off with both Wei Zheng and Emperor Taizong in a fright. Both had very real sounding dreams. Wei Zheng had killed the green dragon of the Jinghe River due to its misdeeds, but the emperor had broken his promise to the dragon to save it, a source of shame and anxiety. He asked what he should do.

Traditional Tale of Gu Guanyin Temple  46:14
Minister Xu Maogong, a trusted general, said to him, “Guanyin Bodhisattva specializes in helping the poor and the needy and saving all living beings. As long as you make sincere offerings to Guanyin Bodhisattva, you can resolve your problems.” 

Emperor Taizong took Xu Magong’s advice. He remembered the “divine spring” and thought it was auspicious because it came out of the Zhongnan mountain. So he built a Guanyin Hall in honor of Guanyin Bodhisattva and to dispel the hatred from the affair. After the Guanyin Hall was built, Guanyin Bodhisattva appeared in Taizong’s dream and said, “I have sprinkled nectar on the body of the Green Dragon to revive it, but it has committed a crime against the Heavenly Power. Therefore I have shrunk its body to 3 feet and put it in the Shenquan Cave on Zhongnan Mountain.” 

The eighteen guards of Emperor Taizong were required to become monks to guard the Shenquan Cave to prevent the Green Dragon from coming out of the cave and cause trouble again. Later, the eighteen monks guarding the cave achieved the status of Arhats, which means they achieved enlightenment. Additionally, two generals, Qin Shubao and Yuchi Gong, were selected to guard the palace gate in Chang’an. The two generals guarding the palace gate became folk gods of doors, and the emperor ordered their images to be installed permanently at the imperial gate. 

And soon after, a ginkgo tree grew over the Shenquan Cave, where Guanyin blesses people with longevity and happiness to this day. 



Doug Still  48:23
In our talk together, Professor D spoke about Emperor Taizong's concerns toward the end of his life. Certainly, a priority was promoting the safety of the Empire and its long term survival. But his thoughts also contemplated his own mortality. The teachings of Buddhism started to look more appealing. He became curious about the rising star of a contemporary figure named Xuanzang.

Ruihong Di  48:50
But in the later part of his life, his attitude toward Buddhism changed drastically. In the later period of his reign, he made certain adjustments to this policy after being influenced by Tang Xuanzang, a great monk in Chinese history who went to India to seek Buddhist scriptures.

Doug Still  49:10
Xuanzang was born in 602 near Luoyang. Throughout his young life, he read religious texts and studied Buddhism. In his mid 20s, the scholarly young monk found his way to Chang'an, where the new emperor Taizong ruled after bringing the capital back from Luoyang. Xuanzang was very concerned about the Buddhist scriptures that were currently in China at the time, which were often translated poorly and were sometimes contradictory. He developed the idea to journey to India to seek out original texts in Sanskrit to find a better understanding of Buddhist teachings. 

However, Emperor Taizong forbade Xuanzang's proposed visit to India on the grounds of national security. Most foreign travel was not allowed. The passionate Xuanzang left anyway. He hid in the Gobi Desert for a while, eventually making his way to the western frontier, where the Silk Road continued west towards Central Asia. He exited through the famed Yangguan Pass and made the long, dangerous journey to India. 

Myths and legends surround his adventures during the 17 year journey to India and back. Xuanzang dictated an account of his time in India to a disciple, and that narrative still exists. Nine centuries later, in the 16th century, a famous novel called Journey to the West was written by Wu Cheng’en that further immortalized Xuanzang in Chinese history. He traveled throughout India and stayed at Buddhist monasteries and met important people. He absorbed the culture and learned from Indian monks firsthand. He returned to China in 645, with hundreds of Indian texts in Sanskrit to be translated. They were to have a large influence on Buddhism in China. Not only that, but the story of Xuanzang pilgrimage spread across the realm. He returned somewhat of a celebrity. His law breaking departure had been forgotten. And Emperor Taizong wanted to see him.

Ruihong Di  51:23
At the beginning, we know that as an emperor and ruler, Emperor Taizong of Tang had to govern the entire country. At that time, he also hoped to expand his power and expand the scope of governance in the country. What Li Shimin wanted was to achieve a certain degree of stability in the rule of the Empire. So what? Xinjiang, at that time, China's western region is what we now call the western regions. Xinjiang, Gansu, and Ningxia were in the Western Regions in Chinese history. Then, how were the Western Regions governed?

They would pose a certain threat to the Tang Empire. This place had so many of what we now call “ethnic minorities.” It was a transitional zone bordering the entire Central Asian region where culture and Buddhism were introduced. For the Emperor, the first thing was to stabilize it.

Doug Still  52:22
So, Xuanzang knew these regions very well. He traveled through them. He knew the culture. Emperor Taizong intended to put him to use. He wanted him to govern.

Ruihong Di  52:33
In the eyes of Emperor Taizong of Tang, he was not just a high monk in the simple sense, but a monk who could help renew the empire with his talents. So the relationship between him and Xuanzang was originally a political relationship. After Xuanzang returned to Chang'an from India, Emperor Taizong was in Luoyang at the time. He asked someone from Chang'an to invite Xuanzang to Luoyang to meet him. 

Emperor Taizong met him in person and told him, “You want to serve politics. You want to be an official. I will give you an official position, and you will come to help me govern the country.” But Tang Xuanzang refused. He said to the Tang faction, “I don't want to be an official. What is my mission?” As a result, there was a disagreement between him and Taizong. It was because Xuanzang himself, as a monk, had no political goals. He did not want to become an official to participate in state governance. He was a very devout believer in Buddhism. 

Doug Still  53:45
If speaking truth to power was a virtue, then Li Shimin was impressed.

Ruihong Di  53:49
However, Taizong still respected him very much because he was a determined monk with his own beliefs, and he wanted to use him to cultivate his own virtues. He regarded him as a high ranking monk, very close to the royal family, and arranged a position for him as the manager of a very important temple.

Doug Still  54:12
Meanwhile, Emperor Taizong was feeling a loss. Just two years prior, in 643, Prime Minister Wei Zheng died. Emperor Taizong no longer had his senior advisor and confidant. He gave Wei Zheng a formal funeral, a very rare honor. He commissioned a stone monument and personally wrote the inscription, which went: “Using copper as a mirror allows one to keep his clothes neat. Using history as a mirror allows one to see the future trends. Using a person as a mirror allows one to see what is right and what is wrong. When Wei Zheng died, I lost a mirror.” To this day, Wei Zheng is venerated in some Taoist temples as a door God.

Wars and plots to upend his reign continued over the next few years, and Li Shimin often wondered what Wei Zheng would do or say. He was aging, and the histories demonstrate that he was reflecting back on his reign and legacy. The world was brutal, and he regretted some of the things he had to do for power and self preservation. The killing of his brothers was a blight on his legacy, but he insisted that his historians should not hold back the facts, a lesson learned from Wei Zheng. Then, in 649, the Emperor himself got sick. 

Ruihong Di  55:41
But one year, Taizong fell ill and went to a place north of Chang'an to educate Chinese workers and to avoid the summer heat, which we call summer vacation. When sick and faced with some ultimate questions, he needed a great monk like Tang Xuanzang to answer them, for him to answer his doubts at this time.

Doug Still  56:05
He called on Xuanzang to fill the void.

Ruihong Di  56:08
The relationship between him and Tang Xuanzang underwent another change, that is from the original political relationship. Then it slowly became a friendship. It was only because of him that Emperor Taizong of Tang dynasty had a positive attitude toward Buddhism, or an attitude that was free from political exploitation, and he truly saw the value of Buddhism to national governance and the liberation of personal life.

Doug Still  56:39
Xuanzang helped him find life's meaning when he needed it most. Could it be, that to demonstrate his late in life embrace of Buddhism, as well as his newfound friendship with Xuanzang, that Emperor Taizong planted a ginkgo tree at a new Buddhist temple on the outskirts of his city, a temple in the Zhongnan Mountains with a Divine Spring?

It sure is tempting to think that he did. Professor Di explained a relationship between ginkgo trees and the Bodhi tree of India under which Buddha achieved enlightenment. Xuanzang would have seen this tree, and she said, the ginkgo is viewed as a holy tree in China.

Ruihong Di  57:21
Then, what about Buddhism? What influences came from India? Shikyamuni was in Bodhi. It represents a kind of enlightenment. And our ginkgo tree actually has some similarities with the Bodhi tree in some places, such as its appearance, etc. When the leaves turn yellow in autumn, it looks like an umbrella. It is tall and magnificent. In short, it is visually loved by Buddhists. In addition, it can produce edible ginkgo fruits. It has a long lifespan, so it is also loved for these auspicious characteristics.

Doug Still  58:00
But Professor Di threw some cold water on the notion that the Taizong legend is true. She sticks to the facts, sort of.

Ruihong Di  58:10
In China, these records are extremely rare in what we call the official history books. Basically, very, very few. So as for the record of Emperor Taizong of Tang and trees, if there are records they only exist in some individual historical allusions, such as story books. In the history books, we have confirmed that there is very little content related to this subject. It is not part of serious historical research. It can only exist as a legend or a folk story. 

Therefore, it is difficult for us to say that this ginkgo tree - what the relationship between it and Emperor Taizong of Tang is. But on the other hand, we cannot just think that this kind of legend is false. Legend is not equal to false. Behind this kind of legend, in fact, is people's expectation of an emperor in the whole process of storytelling. It is a real emotion that exists in real history and culture. It exists as an expectation of rulers. This expectation must be true. Therefore, it does not mean that we have a back story with a false legend. Whether the legend is true or false is not important. It is about the history of generations entrusted with this ginkgo tree and the expectations of people for the rulers. 

Is this ginkgo tree important to Li Shimin? It is important in people's minds. We truly hope that the ruling party can do something like this to acknowledge the status of Buddhism in Chinese history, and hope that citizens can face up to the role that Buddhism, which is believed by the majority of people, has put in Chinese history and in shaping Chinese culture. 

Doug Still  1:00:03
Great answer.

Ruihong Di  1:00:06
Thank you. 

Doug Still
Have you visited Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple? 

Ruihong Di  1:00:13
Yes, yes. I went there many years ago, and I also paid close attention to the ancient Guanyin Temple and some of the articles and photos they released to the public. There are many meditation classes. I also talked with their Abbot at the time, who was also a very powerful monk. Therefore, regarding the entire history of China and its current impact on the entire Chinese society, we should look at the tree within the whole Chinese culture represented behind its popularity, legend and technology merged together into a ginkgo tree, an unknown tree in China that attracted worldwide attention. This is a very interesting communication phenomenon and a cultural phenomenon. It is actually worthy of our attention and thinking about the background. 

There are many beautiful photos of this tree, and if we talk about communication, these photos have played a role. Those who cared about the Zen temple at that time were the monks who took pictures of the Zen temple more than 10 years ago. These photos of people meditating under a ginkgo tree, these photos bring great spiritual resonance to people, and also represent people's yearning for this kind of spiritual tranquility. Through this tree, we can learn about the Chinese history of Emperor Taizong of Tang, Xuanzang, Wei Zhang, etc. It is very interesting. So the spread of culture is a very interesting phenomenon which allows us to let our American friends understand Chinese culture, and can also make Chinese people reflect on their own culture, look back at their own history, and then face up to the environment we are in now and everyone's inner yearning. Why do we pay attention to this tree? Because we have expectations for it in our hearts. We also hope that such beautiful things will be associated with our own lives. 

Doug Still  1:02:13
Well, that's why I'm here. It's all because of this tree. And I got to learn all of, you know, this period in your history, and I got to meet you. 

Ruihong Di
I hope it helps you. 

Doug Still
Thank you so much for joining me. I very much appreciate it.

Ruihong Di  1:02:26
You're welcome and thank you.

Doug Still  1:02:30
Whether or not Li Shimin, the great emperor Taizong, planted or gifted the ginkgo tree at Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple is difficult to say for sure. If he did, the meaning behind the gesture is unmistakable. That Buddhism belongs in China, symbolized by the quintessential Chinese tree. And certainly to the monks there today celebrating its beauty, the ginkgo is a gift that keeps on giving.

Outro

Thank you, listeners, for joining me today to hear this story. For all of you ginkgo tree lovers in the U.S., China and around the world, I hope I did it some justice. Many thanks to Dr Ruihong Di for taking the time to talk about the history surrounding a tree in your hometown of Xi’an. Your insight is so much appreciated. And thanks also to Dr Peter Del Tredici for taking us on a botanical journey to the wild stands of Ginkgo biloba in central China. The Traditional Folk Tale of Gu Guanyin Buddhist Temple was read by my friend Wiley Wang, a machine intelligence engineer living in California, but originally from Jilin Province, China. And the wonderful music you've been listening to is actually traditional Chinese folk music from the Tang Dynasty. The piece is called “Farewell at the Yangguan Pass,” not coincidentally the same Silk Road passage through the Chinese western frontier that Xuanzang took on his journey to India. It is played by Wu Xiao-zhong with the former People’s Association Chinese Orchestra in Singapore.  I'll be posting photos of Gu Guanyin Temple and its ginkgo tree on Facebook and Instagram. The show website is thisoldtree.show. 

Once again, thanks for listening. I'm Doug still, and this is This Old Tree. See you next time!