|
This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Katsura at Dumbarton Oaks (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 14 Published April 11, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] I've got to admit, I hadn't heard about the old Katsura tree at Dumbarton Oaks in Washington, DC. I knew that Dumbarton Oaks was an estate and museum with one of the great gardens of America, designed by Beatrix Farrand, although I'd never been there. The Katsura came to my attention when landscape architect, Ron Henderson, invited me to tag along with him early this spring to see a project, he coordinated with the top-notch horticultural staff there. Along with him and his assistant, Hans Friedl, Ron recruited a special guest from Japan named Kurato Fujimoto, a Master Gardener from Kenroku-en, one of the three great Japanese landscape gardens. Mr. Fujimoto, or Kurato as I came to know him informally, was leading a team effort to install a series of crutches and braces under the big Katsura, an indigenous Japanese propping technique to promote the long-term health of old trees and to support long, aging branches. This was not an opportunity to be missed. Tree lovers, I'd like to bring you along to Dumbarton Oaks with me, where you can join me as a fly on the garden wall, so to speak. As we go, you'll learn more about this project and meet several interesting people, like Jonathan Kavalier, the Director of Gardens and Grounds, as well as Abner Aldarondo, a humanities fellow who dug through mounds of documents and photos to research the origins of the Katsura. Best of all, you'll get to know this lovable unique tree that holds its own as an unplanned cast member of Farrand's magnificent garden. It has a bit of mystery about it that relates to the burgeoning 19th-century fascination with Japanese trees and plants. I know you'll need to go see this tree when we're done. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:22] I left my hotel early on a Monday morning to meet up with Ron, Hans, and Kurato at Dumbarton Oaks, which is in the Georgetown section of Washington. We were to meet at the guesthouse where they were being housed along the northwest edge of the garden. It was not an easy spot to get to by public transportation, so I decided to walk because it was such a beautiful day. Bad idea. Like a rookie, I thought I could cut through the US Naval Observatory area to the north of the garden but hit a dead end and had to walk all the way around. I was late. Ron texted to just walk in and around the building to the maintenance garage, where they were already hard at work with Jonathan Kavalier and the entire garden crew. I said my hellos and then started asking questions. So, Ron, what are we doing here? Ron Henderson: [03:18] Kurato Fujimoto and Marc Vedder are putting the cross piece on one of the posts. This is the first one that we're [drilling sounds] They've just countersunk the crosspiece for lag bolts to connect the crosspiece to the pole. Installing two of those and we'll also be installing two kasugai, or kind of C-shaped nails to the outside that will also help secure the crosspiece to the post. Doug Still: [04:01] They were constructing eleven poles with T-shaped struts at the top, all exactly measured according to their planned placement along selected branches of the Katsura tree. They were working off a diagram that Ron had created on-site with Kurato Fujimoto hand-drawn and ink with enfolding sketchbooks called “orihon.” Ron Henderson: [04:21] We measured the tree on Monday, a week ago. Fujimoto identified the locations for the supports, they are known as “hoozue.” And we measured the dimensions from the underside of the branch to the ground so that we know the length for all of the poles. And then, we acquired the orchard poles that we'll be using for the supports this week and now we're going to be fabricating the poles this morning, maybe into this afternoon, and then we'll be heading out to the tree to begin to install them this afternoon. It's probably two days of work. Doug Still: [05:11] Apparently, there was a bit of a scramble to find the right type of supports locally and get them to the shop in time to conduct the project, but Jonathan and the crew pulled it off. So, you got all these poles a week ago? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:25] We did. We got them on Wednesday last week. Doug Still: [05:28] And they were barked. You had to debark them? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:31] No, these were actually pressure-treated arbor poles. We sent a staff person out to Madison, Virginia, to pick them up. It was like a full-day road trip, and she came back with them in the afternoon. And then, we had to sand them down to expose the grain and remove kind of the-- Doug Still: [05:46] Make them look nicer and more interesting. Jonathan Kavalier: [05:49] Yes, exactly. Doug Still: [05:51] So, these are telephone poles? Jonathan Kavalier: [05:52] These are basically-- well, arbor poles. I guess they're used in arboriculture. These are white pine that have been pressure treated. Doug Still: [06:00] And you worked on this all Friday? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:03] Yeah. Thursday and Friday. The garden, all hands-on deck, sanding. Doug Still: [06:10] [laughs] What was your role? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:11] I was one of the sanders. Yeah. Doug Still: [06:13] You're a sander? Jonathan Kavalier: [06:13] I'm a good cheerleader. [laughter] Doug Still: [06:16] This wasn't my first experience installing hoozue, as they are known in Japanese. Kurato and Ron were retained by the Parks Department of the City of Providence a year ago to work with the Betsey Williams Sycamore, the 240-year-old tree you may remember from episode one. It has a 57-foot-long branch that stretches out at eye level, a very special feature, but it needed support. Kurato and the parks crew installed two props below it, that time using reclaimed black locust trees that have very durable wood. That's when I first met Kurato. By the way, Kurato only speaks Japanese, and none of us do. So, we communicate by using the translation feature on our phones. It works pretty well although we sometimes have some amusing mix-ups. Anyway, he and Ron had also propped a cherry tree on the campus of Penn State University several years ago and developed a relationship with the managers at the US National Arboretum in DC. The week before our Dumbarton Oaks visit, they installed hoozue for two itosakura cherry trees at the National Arboretum. Later, I paid a visit. The work is gorgeous. The technique is most associated with cherry species as well as pine, both very important to Japanese culture. In the US, you won't see tree supports very often, except perhaps in orchards to preserve productive old branches on fruit trees. In general, our practices resort primarily to pruning branches and cabling large trunks for support. Ron and Kurato would like to see propping used more often here, and they're promoting the technique wherever they can. In this case, apropos to their Japanese style of propping, this installation is for a tree native to Japan, Cercidiphyllum japonicum, a Katsura tree. But you knew you had a goal, which is the Katsura tree. Jonathan Kavalier: [08:13] Yeah. Yes, we knew we wanted to work on the Katsura tree. We think this is one of the oldest Katsura trees in the country, and we actually have a research fellow doing some work on that part of it right now. Just having met Kurato at the arboretum a couple of years ago and having a couple of years to digest what they were doing at the arboretum and more thinking about the trees here, there's a couple of other candidates here that lend themselves particularly well, I think, to this technique that we're interested in doing in the future as well. Doug Still: [08:43] I've yet to see the tree, so I can't wait. Jonathan Kavalier: [08:44] Okay, yeah, it's a great tree. Doug Still: [08:47] Obviously, I was dying to meet the tree we'd all been talking about. After another hour or so of work at the shop, I finally got the chance. Though it was Monday and the garden was closed, Jonathan ushered us into the museum's entrance lobby, then out a side door onto the grassy south lawn, the grand estate's sweeping front yard. It is largely open, framed by mature shrubs, oaks, and tulip trees, as well as a stunning grouping of cedar of Lebanon defining one edge. We walked across the entrance drive and down a short slope, and there was the Katsura along the front wall, separating the property from our street. While it isn't hidden, it isn't highlighted either, standing within its border with other trees and shrubs. But this old tree reaches out with charm and life, quite literally. The first thing you notice are the multiple trunks, thick and sort of on top of one another, emanating from nearly the same point on a wide, weighty central trunk that sort of leans out across the expanse of lawn. Eight or nine twisting, undulating branches make the tree look as if it were about to wriggle to a new spot. One of them lays right on the ground. There are numerous cavities at the base of most branches and at the trunk, the tree is showing its age. Almost every branch was pruned at the end, making it look somewhat amputated, a result of die back at its outer reaches. But wispy new sprouts surround each cut. There, I picked up my conversation with Jonathan and Ron. And does this tree have a name? Jonathan Kavalier: [10:29] We refer to it as “The Katsura” even though there's more than one Katsura tree here. Actually, behind you is the other Katsura that Farrand added. When Beatrix Farrand came to design this garden, this Katsura tree was here, and she worked her design around it. So, it's a pretty iconic tree for us. Doug Still: [10:47] It's fantastic. What's your guess on how old this tree is? Jonathan Kavalier: [10:52] We're working on that now. We think it was planted probably in the last decade of the 1800s, but we're not 100% sure yet. We're still working on that. We have a research fellow named Abner Aldarondo that is working on that very question. Doug Still: [11:09] How would you describe this tree? Just looking at it. Jonathan Kavalier: [11:15] To me, it's like an octopus, kind of. It's crawling out onto the lawn. It's situated along what we call the R Street border, which is a little narrow brick path that leads around the interior perimeter wall of the front entrance of the garden. And this tree just kind of climbs out into the east lawn, which is a large expanse of lawn. Doug Still: [11:38] Yep. There's no escaping it. The tree looks like an octopus. I try not to anthropomorphize trees too much, although as human beings, we naturally all tend to do it. In this case, however, we get to octopomorphize it? Yeah. This one branch in particular that's coming, follows the ground. Ron Henderson: [11:59] Mm. is it a root or is it a branch? Almost- Doug Still: [12:04] Hard to tell the difference. Jonathan Kavalier: [12:05] Yeah. So, two branches. Rego, one of our crew leaders, who's been here 35 years, remembers when that branch was much longer and had foliage on it. And even this second branch that's only a couple of feet off the ground, used to come out much further and had another upright coming off of it. Doug Still: [12:25] So, was there a point where that branch was off the ground? Jonathan Kavalier: [12:28] I don't know. I've only been here five years. [laughter] Doug Still: [12:32] Right. Ron Henderson: [12:33] It's interesting that you call it “The Octopus tree” because Kurato Fujimoto, the Japanese master gardener that we're working with to conserve the tree, calls it “Tako no Katsura no Ki,” which is the Octopus Katsura tree. Doug Still: [12:50] Yeah. We're obviously about to start work, so we hear chainsaws in the background and vehicles and lots of workers here. [music] Don't worry. Those saws were only there for fine-tuning the size of the poles before installation. But we'll use this moment to take a break. When we return, we'll learn more about how these supports benefit trees and theories on how The Octopus Katsura was planted at Dumbarton Oaks in the 19th century. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Tako no Katsura no Ki, or in English, The Octopus Katsura. That has a nice ring to it. We'll see if it sticks. But back to the day's mission. So, what's the goal of our project today and tomorrow? Jonathan Kavalier: [13:56] Do you want to explain that, Ron? Ron Henderson: [13:58] The goal is to situate the conservation of this approximately 130-, 140-year-old tree with a series of supports that are being installed in the tradition of the Japanese techniques which both support and prop branches that may be in danger of some kind of physical damage because these are incredibly low horizontal branches with a lot of very long fulcrum lengths. But also, the situation and the positioning of the poles known as hoozue or a “chin cane,” like when you put your palm under your chin on a table, that kind of support. Doug Still: [14:55] So, it's hoozue? Ron Henderson: [14:56] Hoozue. Doug Still: [14:57] H-O-O-Z-U-E. Ron Henderson: [15:00] That's right. H-O-O-Z-U-E. And most of these poles will be put toward the ends of the branches and that will support growth at the extremities of the branches, which will then produce more branches and more leaves, which will then be able to bring energy back into the tree. So, the conservation process is both structural support as well as promotion of new growth at the extremities. Jonathan Kavalier: [15:34] What really is interesting to me, the difference in approach between the Japanese approach and our Western approach, and learning about Fujimoto's technique, it's just such a different perspective in how we look at the trees. And in Western culture, we're looking at the crown of the tree, we're doing a lot of retrenching, we're doing a lot of heading back and trying to promote growth from within. From the Japanese perspective, they're looking at the branch tips as being the most active points of growth and so trying to keep the growth there and give it the support that it needs in order to keep the growth there. It's just a completely different approach than we use in Western culture. Doug Still: [16:15] And it seems with this particular tree, most of the branch tips have been cut back in the past. Almost all of them, from the top to the bottom. Jonathan Kavalier: [16:24] Right. That's likely in response to die back and that's how you would typically handle a tree according to ISA standards, is you would prune back your deadwood and try and make heading back cuts and produce lateral branching, which you can see. This has been done over the years. This particular tree, Katsura don't compartmentalize, as well as other trees, as hardwoods and so every time you're making pruning cuts, you're potentially opening yourself up to a decay situation and so especially--[crosstalk] Doug Still: [16:58] Especially cuts this large. Ron Henderson: [17:00] Right. Jonathan Kavalier: [17:02] Yeah, it's just a completely opposite perspective, which is really interesting. Doug Still: [17:06] Has there been a lot of research on-- or comparative research I should say? Ron Henderson: [17:13] There isn't a lot of research that's been done through the lens of Western arboricultural or horticultural science to look at the performance of the Japanese technique. Of course, the evidence of the Japanese technique is trees that are 1000 years old that have been supported in this manner. Doug Still: [17:39] Right, the proof is in the pudding. Jonathan Kavalier: [17:41] Right. Ron Henderson: [17:42] The proof is in the pudding. Doug Still: [17:44] Jonathan had mentioned that this is one of the oldest Katsura trees in the country. And we got on to talking about who planted it, where they got it, and when. Beatrix Farrand started her work here in the 1920s, hired by Robert Woods Bliss and his wife, Mildred. It was Mrs. Bliss that Farrand collaborated closely for decades. A partnership that developed the garden into what we see today. More on that later. But by the 1920s, this Katsura was already a mature tree. Jonathan Kavalier: [18:15] For us, the goal is to keep this tree here because it's one of the few really old trees left on the property and it helps tell a really interesting story about this property pre-Bliss. Because we always talk about Bliss and Beatrix Farrand here and there's a lot of history before Bliss and Farrand and we're starting to dig into that. We have some fellows that are looking into enslaved labor practices here pre-Bliss. So, it's just neat to kind of round that out with some of the horticultural knowledge of some of these trees, where they came from, when they were planted? And then, do our best to keep them here for another 100 years plus. Doug Still: [18:57] According to Jonathan, it is a mystery as to exactly when the octopus Katsura was planted. Katsura, along with many other plants from Japan, can trace their introduction to North America to the mid-19th century. In the fall of 1868, the new Meiji Restoration ended Shogunate rule, opening the doors for interaction with the West in the rest of the world. Through certain diplomatic figures, this led to an almost immediate botanical interest in sharing Japanese trees and plants, mostly in the form of seeds. Ron Henderson: [19:32] Yeah, and if you look at it within larger historical patterns, Perry's ships arrived in Japan in the 1860s. So, within clearly 30 years or so, this tree was already here. That nursery trade must have been one of the most advanced or first things that began to be imported from Japan, all these amazing plants that we all know now, including the Katsura. Doug Still: [20:10] Was Washington DC a center of that early nursery trade just because it was our nation's capital perhaps? Ron Henderson: [20:19] Well, they're certainly the center, the seed of diplomatic envoys who may have been either supporting or promoting or funding that kind of trade. Or maybe a few snuck a few seeds in their diplomatic pouches as they headed back, perhaps. [laughs] Jonathan Kavalier: [20:38] Yeah, it would make sense. Doug Still: [20:42] The Arnold Arboretum in Boston has a wonderful Katsura tree in their collection dated to 1878 and I had to go view it this past weekend when I was in Boston. It has precise documentation. Seeds were sent by an American from Massachusetts named William Clark, who was invited by the Japanese government in 1876 to assist in the establishment of Sapporo Agricultural College, now Hokkaido University. Is it possible that the Dumbarton Oaks Katsura was planted earlier? If so, there was only a slim 10 years or so when seeds could have been shipped, germinated, and grown in a nursery and planted. Would some targeted research uncover the answer? I had the pleasure of being introduced to Abner Aldarondo, a humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks and a recent grad of Amherst College. He had been digging deep in the files within the research library. What is your name and what's your role here? Abner Aldarondo: [21:43] Yeah, my name is Abner Aldarondo, and I'm a humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks. Doug Still: [21:47] And where are we right now? Abner Aldarondo: [21:49] Right now, we are on the third floor of the main house, right by publications. Doug Still: [21:55] And how many of you are there up here? Abner Aldarondo: [00:21:58] Yeah, for humanities fellows at least, there's five of us total. And then there's an intern who's doing like an exchange program, and then there's the publication folks in the cubicles right there. Doug Still: [22:16] So, you're a humanities fellow? Abner Aldarondo: [22:17] Yes. Doug Still: [22:18] Could you describe what that is? Abner Aldarondo: [22:20] Yeah, humanities fellow at Dumbarton Oaks typically have graduated within the past two years from undergrad, and I graduated from Amherst College, where I studied Spanish and Latinx and American studies. Doug Still: [22:36] And are you all doing the same type of project or all different types of projects? Abner Aldarondo: [22:40] All of us are doing pretty different kinds of projects, yeah. Doug Still: [22:44] And what's your project? Abner Aldarondo: [00:22:44] Yeah, I'm working on two. So, one are tree biographies, essentially. Doug Still: [22:52] Tree biographies? Abner Aldarondo: [22:53] Yes. Doug Still: [22:54] I love it. Abner Aldarondo: [22:55] Much like what you're doing, right? [laughs] Doug Still: [00:22:56] Yeah, that's right. [laughs] Abner Aldarondo: [22:57] Yeah so, basically just taking stock of this oldest tree on the property and then giving some horticultural information, some of the specific tree history behind them. And yeah, stuff like that. Doug Still: [23:13] Did you ever think you were going to be a tree biographer? Abner Aldarondo: [23:16] [laughs] No, I did not. No. Doug Still: [23:19] [laughs] I didn't either. [laughter] Abner Aldarondo: [23:21] No, it's for sure. Doug Still: [23:23] We got right into it. When did the first Katsura seeds come to the US? Abner Aldarondo: [23:28] It was introduced in the US 1864,1865. Though this isn't a true introduction because Thomas Hogg, Jr.-- That says Hoggs, but supposed to say Hogg. Thomas Hogg, he wrote this letter and this like monthly gardeners-- what do you call it like a magazine, like some sort of like thing-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [23:52] Sure. A journal? Abner Aldarondo: [23:53] Yeah, journal. It was a journal, exactly. Doug Still: [23:54] And who was he? Abner Aldarondo: [23:58] He was part of this family, the Hogg Family, and they had their own nursery. His dad established the New York Horticultural Society in 18-- I believe it was 1822. Doug Still: [24:10] The Hogg family, originally from Scotland, were well connected and owned a florist and nursery business in Manhattan, first at 23rd Street and Broadway and later at 79th Street at the East River. They played a prominent role in the horticultural life of New York City and in fact, the entire Northeast. Abner learned about Hogg and other early influencers in a fascinating research article written in 2017 by Peter Del Tredici in the Botanical Review, the journal of the New York Botanical Garden. Its title is The Introduction of Japanese Plants into North America. Abner Aldarondo: [24:48] Abraham Lincoln appoints Thomas Hogg, Jr. to the Japanese Consulate in Kanagawa, and he was there until 1869, but he does return a few years later. Doug Still: [24:57] Interesting. Why do you think he was appointed to the Japanese consulate? Abner Aldarondo: [25:01] I honestly don't have much an idea as to why he was appointed. Doug Still: [25:06] And that's an interesting year right in the middle of the Civil War. Abner Aldarondo: [25:10] Yeah. Doug Still: [25:11] Thomas Hogg must have been like, "Fine, I'm out of here because way too much going on here." Abner Aldarondo: [25:17] Yeah, "I don't want to deal with this right now." [laughter] Doug Still: [25:20] The appointment of Thomas Hogg, Jr., as US Marshal to the Japanese consulate was a big deal because despite the Civil War here in America, our government was trying to open diplomatic relations with Japan. Commodore Perry had already made inroads with the Treaty of Kanagawa in 1854, and horticulturalists and agriculturalists were always part of these missions. Del Tredici also writes of another man, Dr. George Rogers Hall, who was in East Asia and was sending seeds and plants back to the US as early as 1862, specifically to a nursery in Flushing, New York, owned by Samuel Parsons. No mention of Katsura in the records though. But back to Thomas Hogg, Jr., in the public letter he wrote. Abner Aldarondo: [26:06] This year, there's a little funny story behind that bit right there, 1864 and 1865, because I was just telling you, he wrote to his journal, and basically this other person said that they introduced Katsura tree to North America. Doug Still: [26:25] That person was Charles Sprague Sargent, the first director of the Arnold Arboretum. Abner Aldarondo: [26:32] That they were the one who introduced it. He was like, "No, actually, I was the one who introduced Katsura." And this is why it's 1864 or 1865 because he doesn't even know when he sent these seeds to his brother. Doug Still: [26:44] I see. So, there's documentation that in 1864,1865, he claims, "I brought Katsura tree seeds to the US." Abner Aldarondo: [26:55] He mailed them to his brother. Doug Still: [26:57] Okay, so they were in the form of seeds. Abner Aldarondo: [26:59] In the form of seeds. He was like, Yeah, if you go to my brother's garden, you'll see that there are Katsuras there." Doug Still: [27:07] Thomas's brother, James Hogg, was also a horticulturist, and he had a private garden at 84th Street at the East River. It obviously no longer exists. Here's how Del Tredici describes Hogg's point of view, and I quote, "The only articles that Hogg himself published about his Japanese plant collecting activities appeared in 1879, four years after he returned home. Hogg was motivated to write these articles to correct an erroneous statement by Professor C. S. Sargent of the Arnold Arboretum that credited William S. Clark of the Massachusetts Agricultural College for introducing Cercidiphyllum japonicum, Sciadopitys verticillata, and Schizophragma hydrangeoides--", oof, "into North America. Hogg emphatically refuted Sargent's statement by noting that he had sent all three of these species to his brother in the 1860s, well before Clark arrived in Japan. Well, if anyone truly cares about who brought the first Katsura seeds to the US. Looks like we have a controversy. Could James Hogg's garden be where the first Katsura was germinated and planted? Maybe. And it's unclear that any of the plants Hogg sent back were ever sold, but it's possible that some of the seeds also made it over to Parsons Nursery in Flushing. Abner Aldarondo: [28:30] Mm-hmm. Samuel Parsons Nursery. Yeah. Then, it starts to make an appearance in 1874 at Parsons. There's mention of the Katsura tree, though if I recall, it's not called Katsura. It's called the Japanese Judas Tree. Doug Still: [00:28:47] Abner also found a reference of Cercidiphyllum japonicum making an appearance at the Vienna World's Fair in 1873. So, it was at the World's Fair in Vienna in 1873. It was in Parson's Nursery by 1873. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:05] Yeah, by '74. Doug Still: [00:29:07] Was that an offering for sale? Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:09] Yes, offering for sale. Doug Still: [00:29:10] So, they received it prior? Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:12] They definitely received it prior, yeah. Doug Still: [29:14] Growing it for a few years. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:16] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doug Still: [00:29:18] Well, we were hoping to find some evidence that showed that the owner of Dunbarton Oaks in the 1860s, Edward Linthicum, purchased and planted a Katsura tree before his death in 1869. Actually, the estate was known as just the Oaks at that time. With his gardener, J. H. Small, Linthicum purchased plants from Joshua Pierce, who owned Linnaean Hill in Washington, DC. I wonder if there are any letters from Hogg to Joshua Pierce just to show that they worked with each other. Abner Aldarondo: [29:53] Yeah. Doug Still: [29:55] It wouldn't surprise me if they knew each other. I bet it was a small world. Abner Aldarondo: [00:29:59] Oh, for sure. Doug Still: [30:02] [laughs] I had a follow-up conversation with Abner after he did some further sleuthing, and unfortunately, we weren't able to find any documentation for Linthicum acquisitions or Linnaean Hill sales. Abner searched high and low. But overall, he did find that the Katsura tree was beginning to circulate around the East Coast in the 1860s and early 70s in multiple ways, and horticultural networks were tied together. But our guesses, it seems, will need to remain conjecture. So, this is a fun mystery. It could have been planted within, say, a 30-year span. Abner Aldarondo: [30:46] Yeah, totally. [laughter] Doug Still: [30:48] I think for most people, that would be good enough. But we're tree biographers, and we've got to know. Abner Aldarondo: [00:30:55] Yeah, we've got to know exactly when this tree was planted. [laughs] Doug Still: [00:30:58] That's right. After I met with Abner, I was treated to a tour of the famous Dumbarton Oaks Garden. Whoa. Even in March, it is stunning. It is after all, the gravitational force that makes this a world-class site and brings tens of thousands of visitors each year. Without understanding it, we don't completely understand the symbiotic importance of the octopus Katsura. After the break, I chat more with Ron Henderson to get a sense of Beatrix Farrand's vision. [music] Ron Henderson: [31:40] Beatrix Farrand was a woman who grew up on the East Coast in a fairly literary and, one could say, slightly wealthy family and situation. Doug Still: [00:31:53] She was upper crust, right. Ron Henderson: [00:31:55] Yes. She's the niece of Edith Wharton, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author who wrote about the Gilded Age. So, she certainly was exposed to that group of people and then she was also involved with several universities. Her husband, Max, was a professor and the first director of the Huntington Library. So, she grew up in quite literary and educated friends and family. Doug Still: [00:32:32] How would you describe her aesthetic and what were her influences? Ron Henderson: [00:32:36] I think she came into landscape architecture or what she may be preferred to call landscape gardening through plants. I would say her early mentor was Robert Sprague Sargent from the Arnold Arboretum in Boston and affiliated, of course, with Harvard. Her work was largely launched through estate work because, in part, women were not leading landscape architecture offices at that time in America's history or anywhere in the world. As her skills and reputation began to grew really through a remarkable circle of clients and friends and family, she was able to extend her work beyond estates to college campuses and other institutions, from the National Cathedral to the White House. Her work kind of grows out of, I think, a really kind of remarkable understanding of plants and the orchestration of space across topographical changes. At Dumbarton Oaks, it's particularly strong. The house of Dumbarton Oaks sits up on a ridge. So, her work is largely to the north and to the east of the main house. So, kind of away from the south lawn and away from the Katsura. And her work negotiated a fairly steeply sloping site with a series of terraced gardens that step down the hill. As the slope gets a little more steep, the walls become further apart. And one could say even the garden transitions from something that's highly cultivated, such as a rose garden, to the wildness of Cherry Hill at the back and then all the way down into Rock Creek, which was more of, one would say, a more naturalized garden that was originally part of her work as well. Doug Still: [00:35:01] Yeah, it just sort of blends into and becomes woodland almost around the edges. Ron Henderson: [00:35:07] It is, and it does. So, it's a kind of classic garden strategy of building a series of garden rooms. Hers are incredibly deftly organized around the topography. The north lawn, the space is kind of telescope in narrowness until you get at the very end of the north vista overlooking that wilder valley. So, I think there's a lot of spatial innovation and allegorical and commemorative aspects of the garden in tablets and sculpture and fountains, but largely in a way that we might expect gardens to transition from being more formal, nearer to the house, to wilder, further away from the house, as well as I said, this really, really accomplished sense of terracing. Doug Still: [00:36:12] I love the sense of scale walking through those rooms and how your eye is taken in different directions depending on where you're standing and where you're moving. But she definitely shapes your experience that way and what you see and what the views. Ron Henderson: [00:36:32] She does, and I think there's some unexpected vistas that come from that kind of stacking or layering of these spaces. Doug Still: [00:36:44] What I felt walking through the garden for the first time and that was the first time I'd ever been there, was that there was a cohesive sense of whole and it didn't seem like there were specimens that were highlighted. Maybe a few, maybe the European beech or some of the others. But for the most part, it was a broader vision than a collection of plants per se. Ron Henderson: [00:37:10] Yeah, I totally agree. Although she was a consummate designer of landscapes with plants, there are very few instances where a specimen is the focus of a garden room. Like you said, the European beech is one of those. Otherwise, she was quite effective in working with plant mass, often of the same genus, maybe sometimes even the same species. Things like Cherry Hill, which was in its splendor just as were finishing the work on the Katsura tree, was a plant-based room in the garden, but it was of multiple specimens, not a single specimen. And then, things like the mass planting in the Forsythia Dell or other locations in the garden where she's using plant mass or kind of plant typology. So, there's the rose garden and there is the perennial garden and there is the potager. There are a series of rooms that are plant-based but rarely are those based on a single specimen. Doug Still: [00:38:35] But when just getting started in 1922, Beatrix Farrand found an unusual single specimen on the south lawn. And in likely coordination with Mrs. Bliss, she let the mature Katsura remain just as it was. Almost. She did plant the Katsura across the lawn so that it wouldn't be alone and had a matching pair across the lawn. Ron Henderson: [00:39:00] That is true. It's kind of interesting how potent that is now to be able to have that dialogue of two trees of the same species kind of talking to each other across the space. Doug Still: [00:39:18] And their branches really do sort of extend towards each other, don't they? Ron Henderson: [00:39:23] They do. I think Mildred Bliss also deserves a lot of recognition in this entire enterprise. She wrote, and I quote, "Gardens have their place in the humanist order of life. Trees are noble elements to be protected by successive generations, and are not to be neglected or lightly destroyed." Doug Still: [00:39:53] I think it's wonderful that the people now at Dumbarton Oaks were willing to bring this Japanese technique to the tree. It's not an aesthetic you see in the garden now or very many places in the United States at all. But it just seems right for this old Katsura tree. Ron Henderson: [00:40:17] It does seem right. The specific technique and proportioning of the supports and the manner in which the crosspieces that support the branches are scaled, the way that the branches are wrapped to protect themselves, to protect them from the branches, and the way, of course, that the rope is lashed in order to secure the branch and the support together, that expert technique is not common at all. So, it's been a real joyful enterprise to spend some time working to conserve the Dumbarton Oaks Katsura tree. Doug Still: [00:41:16] On the second day of the project, Kurato Fujimoto gave a short presentation to fellow staff and other invited guests in front of the Tako no Katsura noki with translation help from Hans. Hans Friedl: [41:29] Want to thank everybody for being here. Thank Dumbarton Oaks for letting us be here. Thank you staff that we've been working with. It's been so much fun. Okay, yeah. Kurato Fujimoto [41:45] [foreign language] Hans Friedl: [00:42:21] My name is Kurato Fujimoto. I'm a master gardener (and I am not Kurato Fujimoto). [laughter] Quick second. My name is Hans Friedl. I am from Chicago. I am a [unintelligible 00:42:32] student at the Illinois Institute of Technology. I also was just lucky enough to receive the Hope Goddard Iselin fellowship in public horticulture to help support this work and some of the ongoing research that Ron is talking about. But I'm going to go back to being Kurato now. So, 10 years ago, I was invited to help preserve and support a large maple tree at Penn State University. What I learned there is that there are many trees in America that need support. Bye. Doug Still: [00:43:02] While there, I cornered Thomas Cummins, the Director of Dumbarton Oaks, which altogether is a Harvard University research institute, library, and museum, as well as a garden. He was kind enough to let me ask him what he thought about this tree. How important is this tree to Dumbarton Oaks, the Katsura tree? Thomas Cummins: [00:43:24] Well, again, I'm not the expert on this, but this is one of our oldest trees, if not a tree that precedes by far Dumbarton Oaks as a Harvard entity and even before the Blisses created Dumbarton Oaks. It is one of those landmark pieces that belongs to Dumbarton Oaks. That's how important it is. [laughs] Doug Still: [00:43:54] When do you think it was planted? Thomas Cummins: [00:43:57] We're doing the dating now, and it's not clear. Thaïsa Way, who is working with one of our interns to get-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [00:44:10] I've been speaking to Abner about it too. I just wondered if you had an opinion to it. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:14] No, I don't. I go with what they say. They tell me. I just work here. Doug Still: [00:44:19] Yeah. [laughter] Thomas Cummins: [00:44:21] I love these trees though. I mean, they're just spectacular. Doug Still: [00:44:24] Yeah, it's one of my favorite trees. That beautiful heart-shaped leaf. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:29] And it is just-- I don't know, the way that-- I've always watched it because I walk with my dog here- Doug Still: [00:44:37] Yes. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:37] -around. We always walk around, and I always just marvel at the tensile strength of something like this. It just holds itself. Doug Still: [00:44:47] Right. It seems to be propping itself up with these branches right on the ground. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:51] Yeah. Doug Still: [00:44:52] Do you call it the octopus tree? Thomas Cummins: [00:44:55] I don't. [laughter] Doug Still: [00:44:58] We're trying to start a trend. Thomas Cummins: [00:44:59] I will if you want. [laughter] Doug Still: [00:45:06] All right. That sounds promising. The octopus Katsura is clearly in excellent hands at Dumbarton Oaks. Everyone I met, from top to bottom, is super talented and also extremely friendly and welcoming, I have to say. Thanks for your hospitality. And you should see the tree now, decked out in its Hoozue. It is somehow even more stunning than before if that's possible. And we're going to see it thrive. I'll be posting pictures. I'd like to give my thanks to Ron Henderson, Kurato Fujimoto, Hans Friedl, Jonathan Kavalier, and Abner Aldarondo for appearing on the show and for teaching me about Katsura. And, listeners, thank you for tagging along with me on this garden journey. I really appreciate each and every one of you. I hope you'll join me again in a couple of weeks. I'll give you a teaser. The Katsura at Dumbarton Oaks wasn't the only story I got out of my trip to Washington, DC. So, stay tuned. I'm Doug Still, and you've been listening to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
0 Comments
This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Birthing Tree (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 11 Published February 27, 2023 Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. Jimmy Haley: [45:11] The majesty of the tree and how it just hugs the ground, and you can walk in and amongst those gnarled limbs that are curled down toward the ground, you just feel almost encapsulated. It's almost like a cocoon, and you're just wrapped in a part of history, and it makes a very special feeling inside of you. And other people feel it too. When we did our Bicentennial for the county in 2007, The Birthing Tree was our symbol. We have a monument on Court Square that embellishes the story of really The Birthing Tree. Our phrase was, "Our roots run deep." So, not only do the roots of that oak tree run deep, but the roots of Warren County run similarly, in many cases, side by side through the generations. Doug Still: [46:05] Well, I want to thank you for talking with me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Jimmy Haley: [46:12] Thank you for wanting to share our history. We're very proud of it. Like I said our roots do run deep, and The Birthing tree is symbolic. Doug Still: [46:22] And that's what The Birthing Tree is all about. I want to thank Jimmy Haley, the historian of Warren County, and Tom Simpson, the retired urban forester of Eastern Tennessee, for spending time with me to tell its story and for all of the contributions they made behind the scenes. What fantastic guests. In preparing this episode, it was not lost on me that there is some tension in telling this story that explores and celebrates the act of giving birth to wanted children under this tree in Tennessee. At the same time, a debate is going on in that state as well as nationally, about women's rights to manage their own pregnancies. I support these rights. I think it only right to acknowledge this tension and allow you, the listener, to wrestle with it as you see fit. And I have some other news. I've had the pleasure to connect with Elizabeth Wilson Melton's great, great, granddaughter, Elizabeth Benton, who was named after her. She's a hoot and a super nice person. She provided some of the top-notch genealogy I found that helped explain some of the family ties and stories. She also has photos of Elizabeth and James, which I have permission to share on Facebook and Instagram. And remember that oil painting that Hobart Massey gave to Vessie under The Birthing Tree? She tracked it down with some phone calls. Her cousin, Dana, had it. They sent a picture of that too. Thank you very much, Elizabeth and Dana. [music] Doug Still: [48:09] And thank you, tree lovers, for joining me again today. Please share the show far and wide and check out the revamped website at thisoldtree.show. All the episodes are there with show notes and transcripts. There's a way to donate through Patreon, and you can even buy a T-shirt. I'm Doug Still, and I'll see you next time with This Old Tree. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] The Birthing Tree Season 1, Episode 11 (Feb 27, 2023) Transcript Doug Still: [00:01] The Birthing Tree. A huge, gorgeous 350-year-old plus white oak in McMinnville, Tennessee. It's not only a city landmark, it's the pride of all of Tennessee and plays a part in the state's early Pioneer history. It's more than just a big tree. So, how did it get its name and what's its story? In this episode, we visit with Warren County historian, Jimmy Haley, as well as Tom Simpson, who gave its official state historic designation when he was a regional urban forester. We’ll also follow Celia Wilson and her family on the Settler's Trail. Who? You'll find out. Join me to discover The Birthing Tree. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [01:04] I'd like to start with two important acknowledgments. The first is that the original inhabitants and stewards of the land where we now find McMinnville, Tennessee, were clans of the Greater Cherokee Nation. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the mass migration of Cherokee to the west, to territory that the government had designated. Although there were many routes, collectively, this was the tragic Trail of Tears, which comes up during today's episode. The second acknowledgment is that we cannot separate our story from the terrible history of slavery which impacted contemporary events, the Civil War, and a legacy of inequality. I thank my guests for their forthright discussion. And now to our show. [music] Doug Still (Wilson Story): [02:03] Celia Wilson, or Selah as most people called her, was unsure that leaving Rutherfordton, North Carolina, to head west was a good idea. It was summer, it was hot, and she was pregnant with her first child. She'd just married her husband, John Wilson, last year in September of 1844. Her whole family, the Norvells, would remain in Rutherfordton, at least for now, and she'd be leaving them behind. She was just 21 and had never seen the world outside of Rutherford County. But John insisted because they were starting a family. He was 28, but they didn't have land of their own. They needed that if they were going to be farmers and support themselves. She agreed. It seemed the best choice under the circumstances. Besides, lots of people were heading west. The trail had been blazed, so to speak. They heard there was open land with good soil to be had. They packed up their possessions, and her family helped stock the wagon that John had, and he had horses too. There was nothing but a canvas cover to keep out the rain. At least there were other young families going too, they wouldn't be going it alone. On an agreed-upon day, they left, most likely passed Asheville and then a gap through the Blue Ridge Mountains. Selah was sad, nervous, and excited all at the same time. We'll come back to Celia and the Wilsons wagon train in a bit. But jumping into the present, I'd like to introduce Jimmy Haley. He was a teacher of economics and government at Warren County High School in Tennessee, the former mayor of McMinnville, and the official Warren County historian. Jimmy is the right person to talk to about The Birthing Tree and the history of McMinnville. [music] Well, Jimmy, welcome to the show. Jimmy Haley: [03:59] Thank you for having me. Doug Still: [04:00] We're here today to talk about The Birthing Tree, which is an icon in McMinnville, Tennessee. And I've seen pictures of it. It's just fantastic. But I have a few questions for you. Are you a native Tennessean? Jimmy Haley: [04:13] I'm a native Tennessean, and I'm a native of Warren County. I was born and raised here, and so I've been here my whole life. Doug Still: [04:20] Native to McMinnville or nearby McMinnville? Jimmy Haley: [04:22] McMinnville. Yes. Doug Still: [04:24] When you were growing up, when did you first become aware of The Birthing Tree and its significance? Jimmy Haley: [04:30] It's on a major highway running through the county, and so anyone and everyone that travels that Highway 70 goes by that tree. So, even as a small child, I understood the significance of the tree because it was so large, and they redirected the highway when they were building it just to avoid cutting the tree because it was already kind of an iconic representation of who we are as Warren County people. Doug Still: [04:58] And when did that happen? Jimmy Haley: [05:01] It was like in the 1950s. Doug Still: [05:03] 1950s, it was such an important tree, and they just rerouted the highway around it. Jimmy Haley: [05:09] They moved it, the highway over just to avoid coming any closer to the tree than they had to. Doug Still: [05:15] I was wondering if you could describe The Birthing Tree for our listeners. Where is it situated and what does it look like and what does it feel like to stand underneath it? Jimmy Haley: [05:26] Well, it's not very far from downtown. It's actually across from the birthing unit from our local hospital. Like I said, it's on the Sparta Highway, the Old Kentucky Road, Broadway of America, Highway 70s. It goes by a variety of names, but it's been a major thoroughfare since the early settlers' days. So, it's a majestic tree. It's a white oak. It's almost 90ft tall. The branches are sprawling, and they hover toward the ground. And so, it's kind of gnarled looking. It's so majestic in the width and the girth of the base of the tree that it's almost impossible not to recognize the importance of it. As a small child, I would ask my father to stop, and I would get out and go under and stand under the tree because you have a special feeling when you're under the tree. It's hard to describe but anybody that's ever been there, you can feel it. It's just an awesome, overwhelming feeling of history and the powers of Mother Nature to create a tree that's that tall and that wide and those sprawling branches that hover toward the ground. Doug Still: [06:45] Everyone in McMinnville knows this tremendous tree, and as I said before, it's caught the attention of tree lovers and experts across the state. Here is how Tom Simpson describes it, the former East Tennessee Regional Urban Forester within the Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry. Tom Simpson: [07:04] Well, it is an extremely impressive tree. It is a huge white oak tree that's on the entrance to McMinnville from the state right away, the town of McMinnville. You can see this tree from a great distance away as you drive down the highway. I can't even fathom what it looked like when they were doing it on wagons and horseback, but this gigantic tree has a crown spread of 130ft. Doug Still: [07:31] Wow. Tom Simpson: [07:33] Its height is not so impressive. It was only 81ft when we entered it in 2000, it's probably not that much higher now, but the diameter of the tree was in the neighborhood of 7ft. So, it was a very large circumference area tree with a huge canopy that broadened out and covered a large area of surface. So, when you walked under it, you felt like you were in a forest by itself. There was one limb that came off of it that's still there that grew out and angled down toward the ground and then grew back up. Yeah. Just kind of convoluted out. And that one limb is larger than a lot of trees. Doug Still: [08:16] And that limb is still there, or it fell? Tom Simpson: [08:18] That limb is still there to my knowledge, yes. Doug Still: [08:22] Oh, great. Kids play on that and climb on it. Tom Simpson: [08:25] Sure. [they laugh] Doug Still: [08:29] Is there a fence around it? Tom Simpson: [08:31] No. Not to my knowledge and I haven't seen it in a couple of years. What happened is that the tree was so significant to the community, a developer was going to develop some property nearby and the city became concerned that we might lose the tree just from the standpoint of encroachment of construction. So, they wrangled a deal to purchase the footprint of the tree. So, the tree became actual property of the city of McMinnville, and they erected a plaque. Doug Still: [09:07] And so, it's surrounded by private property? Tom Simpson: [09:10] Yes, it is. Jimmy Haley: [09:12] I used to climb on it. They don't recommend anybody climbing on it now because the branches are somewhat fragile, and they've been cabled up. Dr. Neil Schultz, a local retired orthodontist, fell in love with that tree as a young man himself, growing up here in McMinnville, and coveted the protection of that tree to the point where when a developer bought the property and was going to build a clinic there, we all rallied behind not cutting the tree, which we were afraid was going to happen, just to protect it. Dr. Schultz then spent his own money to help stabilize the tree and cable it and get some professional arborists in to make sure that we were doing everything we could to increase the longevity of the tree since it's 300 years old perhaps, or even older. Doug Still: [10:03] The land underneath the drip line of the tree is now city property and protected. Is that correct? Jimmy Haley: [10:10] It is. It's like a pocket park for the city of McMinnville. We have a sign there saying such and asking people not to climb on the tree and not to do anything destructive. People drive far and wide. I see people there all the time. If I'm able, I will stop and talk a little bit about the tree and find out where they're from. But people from all over the country come on some of their little side trips, they want to come see the tree. Doug Still: [10:39] It's nice to be welcomed by the mayor underneath The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [10:42] Well, I don't always announce myself as the mayor, so I just kind of go incognito on that one. Doug Still: [10:48] Right. Jimmy Haley: [10:49] I've loved the tree my whole life, and it's just a special place. It was a special place for the early settlers. It was on the old Kentucky Road and so anyone traveling into Warren County passed through a grove of very large oak trees at that time. Doug Still: [11:07] I see. So, there was a grove, there wasn't just the one? Jimmy Haley: [11:10] No, there was a grove of oak trees there. That Old Kentucky Road came right down through the middle of them. It was a natural place, according to legend, for settlers to water their horses or oxen and to gather there under the trees to rest before they came into town. Hence the story and the legend of children being born under the tree for refuge in those wagon trains before they came into town. Hence The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [11:41] What's the basic story behind The Birthing Tree? Tom Simpson: [11:44] Well, the one story is that many of the old settlement trails in Tennessee, one of them was called the Kentucky Trail, the other one was called the Old Walton Trail, which was in Middle Tennessee. This tree stands in Middle Tennessee. But the confluence of several of those trails came right up under The Birthing Tree. So, as settlers would move down the trail going toward Alabama or coming back from Alabama, going toward Kentucky or Virginia, they knew about this place. They had it as a meeting place for many, many years. Parties would wait for other parties to hook up with them on the trail. As they were waiting, some of the women would deliver babies underneath the trees. Hence the name, Birthing Tree. There are many stories in Middle Tennessee of families, their grandparents, parents who still know are all born under the tree itself. Doug Still: [12:47] So, these were wagon trains, just like in the old movies? Tom Simpson: [12:50] Yes. Of course, horseback and foot traffic as well. One of the other stories was this tree was near the Trail of Tears originally, the Cherokee Indian Trail of Tears as they went out to Oklahoma. We've not been able to confirm that exactly, but we know it's in the vicinity of the old Trail of Tears in Middle Tennessee. Doug Still: [13:20] I found a relevant map on the National Park Service website. One spur of the Trail of Tears in Tennessee came directly through McMinnville. The trail, the Old Kentucky Trail? Tom Simpson: [13:33] Mm-hmm. Right. Doug Still: [13:34] You said then comes down to Alabama, and then it sort of swings west, of people heading west. Tom Simpson: [13:41] Yes. One of the trails peeled off and went westward. The Old Walton Trail was a connection between East Tennessee and Middle Tennessee that went up through Cookville and areas up into Kentucky. So, like I said, there was a confluence of trails going east and west and north and south and they all met somewhere right at The Birthing Tree. Doug Still: [14:02] So, not all of the Pioneers that might have stayed under the tree were heading west. They might have just been heading south. Tom Simpson: [14:08] Correct. Doug Still: [14:09] And vice versa. Tom Simpson: [14:10] Yes. Vice versa. Doug Still: [14:12] It was sort of like a rest stop. [laughter] Tom Simpson: [14:16] Well, yeah, one of our modern-day interstate rest stops. But the tree was so large even then in the late 1700s, that the canopy just covered an enormous area, and settlers could rest under there for days. In fact, we've heard stories of a week or so where people would stand under the tree to be shaded from the sun in the summer and perhaps some of the storms that came through there. Doug Still: [14:43] And it just gathered this lore. Right? Tom Simpson: [14:47] [laughs] Yes. Doug Still: [14:49] After a quick break, we'll hear more from our guests, Tom Simpson and Jimmy Haley, about The Birthing Tree and its part in Tennessee history. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [15:12] The wagon train eased out of the Smoky Mountains, moving slowly down the bumpy path into the Cumberland Valley of Eastern Tennessee. It had been over a month and Selah's feet hurt. There may have been wagons, but nobody rode in them unless they wanted to jar their spine and develop a headache. Pregnant or not, she walked most of the way like everyone else. But as the summer was ending, the baby was getting bigger. Another family in the wagon train were the Meltons, and John and Selah got to know Spencer and his wife, Rosanna, very well. They were also from Rutherford County, and they had a son with them, 13-year-old James Melton. I imagine that to him, every day was exciting, running off ahead or exploring the woods nearby with other kids. Perhaps, he helped his father hunt. The trail in the Flat Valley was a relief after the difficult mountain terrain, and there were towns and settlements along the way to get supplies. When they got near Chattanooga after a few weeks, they were told they needed to head west and climb again and find a past called Hills Trace that led to the Cumberland Plateau of Central Tennessee. There, they would connect with the Kentucky Road, which traversed somewhat in a north-south direction. Many settlers entered Central Tennessee from the north along this well-used road, but the Wilsons approached it from the southern end of the plateau. The Meltons and the Wilsons were heading to Kentucky, where there was good land being offered to settlers, cheap. Selah wondered where she would be when her baby was born. Who were the Pioneers that were traveling on this road in the wagon trains? We're talking about 1780s, 1790s, and the first few decades of the 1800s. Is that correct? Or was it a longer period of time when the wagon trains came through? Jimmy Haley: [17:06] Well, the earliest settlers were coming through here in the 1780s and 90s. There were very few people living here at that particular time. Many of them were going down on to Nashville and Fort Nashborough. Here in McMinnville, most of the settlers were coming through after 1800. Many of them were headed further west or further south. The territory was wide open for settlement, and so Warren County quickly grew. A lot of people who came through here decided it was a great place to live. They loved the terrain. It was rich soil. We have four rivers that converge here and surrounded by mountains, and the soil was rich enough to support crops and cattle, and pastureland. So, a lot of people decided to stay. McMinnville was founded in 1810, and so it grew quite rapidly as the county seat. With the courthouse and court proceedings and just the logistics of business, everyone from the county came into town and of course, anybody that lived in the northern part of the county would travel the Kentucky Road into McMinnville on the Sparta Road into downtown. Doug Still: [18:19] You said four rivers converge there? Jimmy Haley: [18:21] Yes. Doug Still: [18:22] But it also seems like there's the Old Kentucky Road but there are many offshoots and directions people were coming and going. Some are going west, some are going south. Jimmy Haley: [18:32] Yes. People traveling from Kentucky down into Tennessee or from Virginia and particularly into Tennessee. Most of the settlers here, a lot of people came from North Carolina and came across the mountains that way. Many of them came from Chattanooga and came across the mountains that way. So, they didn't travel the Old Kentucky Road. They traveled some other roads, Hills Trace, and others. Tom Simpson: [18:56] Yeah, there were trails over what we now term as Rockwood Mountain. There were trails that went through some gaps through there that went over into Middle Tennessee. I don't even know the name of those gaps anymore, but they knew. There was one trail that came through Rockwood in East Tennessee that had a toll road set up by the Cherokees, and you would pay a toll to go westward from there. That trail took you back up over to the plateau, the Cumberland Plateau, and then on beyond into wherever you wanted to go from that point. Doug Still: [19:34] Who were the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [19:36] A lot of them were what we call Scotch Irish. Like I said, a lot of them came from Virginia and North Carolina. Of course, many of them had emigrated from other colonies into those states early on. But the majority of our stock is Virginia and North Carolina settlers. Many of them were second and third, maybe fourth-generation settlers. The land was starting to play out. They were looking for new fortunes. They were looking for new opportunities in the west. Tennessee was western land at that particular time and didn't cross over the Mississippi quite yet. So, a lot of people sought their fortunes here. Doug Still: [20:20] So, they were not fresh off the boat. They were colonists who had been living elsewhere and were moving west. Some of the men were in the Revolutionary War, I believe? Jimmy Haley: [20:32] Yes, they were. Many of them had land grants to settle here. That brought many of them here to this area, either from serving a lot in the Virginia militia or in the North Carolina army as well. Doug Still: [20:44] What was it that they wanted? What were they dreaming about? Jimmy Haley: [20:48] If it was like my family, they were just looking for a better life, a new opportunity, a new start. The frontier offers a lot to new settlers and so you can start a business, you can start a farm, or you can do both, which is what a lot of settlers did. They would oftentimes have businesses in town and then also have farm operations alongside of that. It was never really a log city. It was a very formally laid out town with brick sidewalks and brick buildings and some very sophisticated people, lawyers and doctors settled here early on and a lot of businessmen profited. With the coming of the railroad in the 1850s, it even made it more opportunity for people to come here. Doug Still: [21:35] To the best of your ability, what do you think life was like on one of those wagon trains? What do you think their biggest hardship was? Jimmy Haley: [21:45] Probably food and water. In the early days, most of the Native American challenges, by the early 1800s were over. In the 1780s and 1790s, that was not the case. Native Americans were still fighting for control and possession of this territory and the land. So, there were several little skirmishes in and around McMinnville and of course in Middle Tennessee, in and around Nashville as well during that period. My grandmother came here a little bit later than that. They moved from Alabama actually to Warren County. They came by wagon and oxen and mules and came across through Chattanooga and had to cross on a ferry boat on the Tennessee River. Just like in the western stories, they make a big circle and a big bonfire in the middle. Children would oftentimes change places on the seats of other people's wagons. They sang songs. Most of the time they took enough provisions to feed them. Fresh water was a little bit of an obstacle and of course, catching diseases and getting ill with dysentery. Those are things that were oftentimes crucial. And of course, if a woman was pregnant or you had small children, it was a bumpy ride. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [23:25] The Wilsons' wagon train made their way up over Hills Trace and they saw the plateau. They followed a trail down off the path that loosely saddled the Collins River and went by the location of present-day Irving College. Approaching McMinnville from the south, they crossed Barren Fork, a tributary of the Collins. It is not clear if there was a bridge at that time or they had to ford the stream. Most likely it was October or even early November when they entered McMinnville. Selah was getting closer to giving birth, and she knew they needed to stop. Walking was becoming very difficult and so was riding in the wagon or by horse. She began to receive advice from people they met along the trail that McMinnville might be a good place to stop because it was a growing town with storefronts and a doctor. The forest all around had been cleared by then but there were several big oak trees they could camp under. One of them had a growing legend. If your baby is born beneath it, that was good luck. They found the big tree. You couldn't miss it from a mile away. Its branches stretched out wide and welcoming. There were other people in wagons beneath it, some community. It was as good a place as any. They set up there, and on November 12th, 1845, Selah gave birth to a little girl, Elizabeth Wilson. So, McMinnville was the natural place to stop due to restock and resupply. Was there water here? Jimmy Haley: [25:02] Yes, because of the water and like I said, the businesses that were here. Doug Still: [25:07] So, there were businesses? Could you describe that? Jimmy Haley: [25:10] Oh, there were mercantile stores, we had blacksmiths, which were crucial and stuff in early settlement with horses and mules and oxen. We had cabinet makers, we had people doing construction for homes. We had builders, and attorneys. There was very little that Warren County didn't have early on by 1840 or 1850. By the time the railroad came, we were a fairly sophisticated little town. Doug Still: [25:39] What about around 1800? Was there like a main street with buildings? Jimmy Haley: [25:43] No. McMinnville wasn't founded till 1810 and so the county was founded in 1807. We still had quite a bit of settlers here but McMinnville had not been laid out or was not the county seat at that particular time. Doug Still: [25:58] Now, you said that your ancestors were one of those Pioneers, one of the settlers? Jimmy Haley: [26:04] They were. My early settlers came from Virginia, North Carolina, on both sides of my family and they were here very early. On the Martin side, they were here before 1800 settling here in White County and in Van Buren County. Those are two nearby counties. Doug Still: [26:25] What were their names? Jimmy Haley: [26:26] They were Martins, the last name was Martin. And then, the Haleys came later. They originally settled in Cannon County and then moved to Warren County in the 1820s from nearby. Cannon County at that time was part of Warren County. It didn't become Cannon County till later, so it was all Warren County, but they moved closer in. Doug Still: [26:48] Do you have any items from the Martins when they were here? Like letters or anything? Jimmy Haley: [26:53] I have quite a few-- a whole box of letters, and my family, they also owned, enslaved people. So, I have those papers as well that I've hung on to and plan to give to the state archives so they can be preserved as this is a part of history. I have a spinning wheel from my father's side that dates back to about 1810, 1820. It was my great, great, grandmother's that she spun on. So, I still have that. Doug Still: [27:24] Any old photos that might have the tree in it? Jimmy Haley: [27:28] There are very few photographs that show that tree, and I'm not really sure exactly why. We've tried to identify some, and they just don't exist. Pictures that were taken of the house don't include the tree. They show the house and the trees around the house. Doug Still: [27:44] Just back to the Martins, how many generations back is that? Jimmy Haley: [27:49] Uh, six, I think. Doug Still: [27:51] Wow. Tom Simpson: [27:53] There's local lore that we really didn't even know about. If you live in East Tennessee, you didn't know, you didn't hear about it. It's not published on TV shows or whatever. Doug Still: [28:03] Now, you're in Knoxville, right? Tom Simpson: [28:04] I'm in Knoxville. Right. Doug Still: [28:05] So, that's over the mountains. Tom Simpson: [28:07] Over the mountains, yes. Doug Still: [28:09] Right. It feels very like a different place. Tom Simpson: [28:14] Sure. We had not heard about The Birthing Tree until it was actually nominated. But then, once we got digging into the history behind it, you could pick out many, many, stories and many documentations on this particular tree. Doug Still: [28:30] Do you have any specific stories of families that might have been camped underneath the tree or someone who was born under the tree? Tom Simpson: [28:38] No, I don't particularly have those stories. We've heard of some, and there were some articles published locally in McMinnville for several years over some of those stories. I just don't have access to those right now. Doug Still: [28:54] Jimmy Haley didn't actually know anyone either who claims their ancestor was born under The Birthing Tree. I spoke to several other people in McMinnville, and finding someone with a real story was proving difficult. It seemed that while this was a legend that many people knew about, it may be more legend than fact. Then, I came across an article that mentioned Hobart Massey, a former Warren County historian and a local character who passed away in 1982. This was probably before your time, but did you have a chance to know Hobart Massey? Jimmy Haley: [29:29] I did know Mr. Hobart Massey. I did quite well. He was big into agriculture extension here and helped with the fair. He was an amazing gentleman who knew history and loved to tell stories and was legendary, really. Doug Still: [29:48] He was an historian? Jimmy Haley: [29:49] He was the county historian, but he called himself a historian. He loved stories. He loved repeating them. He was an amazing, legendary person who loved to spin a good tale and tell a good story. Doug Still: [30:05] My understanding is it might have been him that coined the term, The Birthing Tree. Jimmy Haley: [30:09] That has been said before. When I was a little kid, I didn't call it The Birthing Tree. We just called it the big tree. The big oak tree. Doug Still: [30:22] Right. Jimmy Haley: [30:23] And so then, people started calling it The Birthing Tree for the last 50, 60 years, that's all anyone-- that's the only name that people place upon it now. Doug Still: [30:33] He apparently wrote a few articles in the local paper. Jimmy Haley: [30:37] He wrote several articles, and a lot of those have become-- they've repeated a lot of legends. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to separate legend and lore from fact. There's very little factual information or written information on that tree, which is amazing. So, until it was nominated as a landmark tree by a former urban forester for city member, Nick Kuhn, there was very little research that had been done on it. So, when they started digging, there were more stories and legend than there was actual factual information on it. In fact, some of those stories have been told many times now that people-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [31:26] They've become fact. Jimmy Haley: [31:28] They'd become fact. Doug Still: [31:29] What was the name of the paper that Hobart Massey would have written in? Jimmy Haley: [31:33] The Southern Standard. Southern Standard has been around since 1870s. So, it's a landmark newspaper. Doug Still: [31:40] Where would I go to find them? Historical Society? Jimmy Haley: [31:45] The library. The Magness Library Downtown has the genealogy room. Doug Still: [31:50] Magness Library? Jimmy Haley: [31:51] Yes. Doug Still: [31:52] Later, after the interview, I called the Magness Library and spoke to Cheryl Watson-Mingle, the genealogist there. She laughed when I asked her if she had information about The Birthing Tree because Jimmy had already called her about it. She was on it. She had found a typewritten transcript for an article written by Hobart Massey in the Warren County News back in 1980 called The Birthing Tree. She emailed it to me. Finally, I found what I was looking for. It tells the story of Hobart Massey attending a three-day church meeting up in Madisonville, Kentucky, about a three-hour drive north from McMinnville. During that meeting, he met an elderly woman, Mrs. John S. Gibson, and got to know her a bit. Mrs. Gibson knew McMinnville. She said her grandmother was born under a large tree there. Hobart was already familiar with the legend, and he was off and running. He told her all about the old white oak tree. Mrs. Gibson's maiden name was Sylvester Moseley, but she was known as Vessie to people that knew her. She was the daughter of Sylvester-- yes, she was given her father's name - and Florence Moseley, known as “Maw Mosley.” This led to finding further information on Ancestry.com. Hey, there's nothing like doing a little research from a home computer. Now, Maw Moseley was the daughter of one James Melton, the 13-year-old boy we met earlier in our story, and you guessed it, Elizabeth Wilson. [Music] You're listening to This Old Tree. After another short break, we'll learn about the legacy of McMinnville, Tennessee's historic white oak, The Birthing Tree. You ran the Heritage Tree Program, or what was the name of that program? Tom Simpson: [33:48] At the time, it was called the Landmark and Historic Tree Program or Register. Doug Still: [33:53] What's it called now? Tom Simpson: [33:54] Well, it's called the Landmark, Historic, and Heritage Tree because in 2009, we added the category of “heritage.” Doug Still: [34:03] How did the tree first come to your attention? Tom Simpson: [34:05] Yeah, The Birthing Tree was nominated by Nick Kuhn, who was the city forester in McMinnville. In 2000, he nominated it to the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council's Landmark and Historic Tree Registry. We have a committee that goes through the process of vetting the nominations, and so they quickly approved that one. That was where we were first exposed to that tree, was in 2000. Doug Still: [34:33] There are three different categories, right? Tom Simpson: [34:35] Sure. Yeah. There was Landmark and Historic. These are living trees. Landmark trees are trees that are familiar to the community. They're commonly recognized by the community, and they're confirmed to be significant to the community's heritage. We can use that term interspersedly. And then, the historic trees are trees, they're living trees that have witnessed some historic event either regionally, statewide, nationwide, or in the community itself. Doug Still: [35:08] I see. Then, you have a third category, which is “heritage trees.” Tom Simpson: [35:12] Right. Well, the program started in 1998, but Gene Hyde, who was president of the Tennessee Urban Forestry Council at the time, Nick Kuhn was a member of the council. So, in 2009, we had looked at nine years of the program and realized that some of the trees that we were entering into that registry had a lifespan that might not last forever. Most trees don't live forever. So, the stories and the historical significance of the trees would be lost once those trees passed away because the landmark and historic categories only have living trees. Doug Still: [35:53] I see. So, heritage trees are trees of the past. Tom Simpson: [35:56] Yes. We also want to be able to pick up trees that have passed away but were famous trees, except for the fact that they didn't survive up until the 1998 creation of the program. Doug Still: [36:12] When a tree is recognized, what happens? Is there an award ceremony? Tom Simpson: [36:18] There is an award ceremony, yeah. At the annual Tennessee Urban Forestry Council Meeting, we recognize the nominators or the owners of the trees. We have a plaque made, an inside plaque, a walnut plaque made for the one who nominated it or at least owns the tree. Then, we place the tree with its story, a picture of the tree in the story onto our website. Doug Still: [36:46] That's great. So, if anyone wants to look these up, they can go to the website for the Tennessee Urban Community Forestry Council? Tom Simpson: [36:53] tufc.com will take you to the website, and then it's listed under Programs then. Doug Still: [37:02] Now, this all got compiled into a book, right? Tom Simpson: [37:04] Yes. The book was called Trees of Tennessee. The council published this book and it's lacking of so many trees that we've put on the registry since then but it's a great coffee table hardcover book. Doug Still: [37:21] It looks fantastic. I haven't held a copy of it in my hands, but it looks wonderful. Now, was The Birthing Tree one of the first trees designated in your program? Tom Simpson: [37:32] It was not the first, but it was one of the first trees. It was one of the first trees. It is significant though because its size has been shown on many, many pictures that show the famous trees. It is a landmark tree in itself just from our program. Doug Still: [37:51] What are a few other trees that have been recognized? Tom Simpson: [37:55] Oh, my goodness. We could go on for a long time on that. To me, the “Moon Trees” are some of the most famous trees. Those are the trees as seeds that were on the Apollo 14 moon flight. Stuart Roosa, who had been a smokejumper for the US Forest Service in his past life, then he became an astronaut, and Apollo 14 was allowed-- the astronauts were allowed to take on some private individual objects. If you remember, Alan Shepard took golf clubs and had the longest golf drive on the moon. But Stuart Roosa was a command module pilot and circled the moon while they were down on playing on the surface. After they returned, he let the US Forest Service take those into two laboratories and raise them into seedlings. In 1972, in our Bicentennial for our state, the US Forest Service donated four of those trees to our state that had been around the moon, and we planted those four trees, and it was a treasure hunt to find all four of those trees. But we did find all four of them, two sycamores and two loblolly pines. There are other trees that are fascinating. There's a tree very close to The Birthing Tree in West Tennessee that is the Cherokee Oak. It was named because a woman that was on the Trail of Tears, a Cherokee lady, as the wagon broke down, she escaped and hid out in a cave near the tree. Later on, she married a white man in Middle Tennessee and formed many of the-- the union formed many of the citizens of Middle Tennessee from that family. That tree was also famous because the Cherokee Oak was the scene of a resting place for one of the last US Postal horseback riders who had a 26-mile route, and he would stop and rest his horse under that tree for many, many years until he retired. Doug Still: [40:14] What's the Daniel Boone Tree? Tom Simpson: [40:16] The Daniel Boone Tree. Originally, 'D. Boon killed a bar', that's the famous one that in history books have. That was at Jonesboro, and it was on a beech tree that he carved, and it has since fell back in the storms. Doug Still: [40:32] I'm sorry. He carved into the bark of a beech tree, what did he carve? Tom Simpson: [40:38] 'D. Boon killed a bar.' Doug Still: [40:40] [chuckles] I see. You must have a picture of that. Tom Simpson: [40:44] Well, we do. Doug Still: [40:45] It's remarkable to me that those carvings would last that long. Tom Simpson: [40:51] Well, sure. Doug Still: [40:52] The bark didn't grow over them. Tom Simpson: [40:55] No, the bark won't. It sometimes will be hard to read, but the bark won't cover all the way over the carvings themselves. Doug Still: [41:02] More about that program. Why do you think that program is so important? Tom Simpson: [41:06] Well, it shows a connection of what trees do for mankind and the connection that we have to trees. Those trees that live long enough and are significant enough to stand there, are living stories by themselves of the history of mankind around it, but not only the trees, but then they'll discover the history behind the trees. [music] Doug Still (Wilson story): [41:39] Back to the story of the Wilsons. We don't know how long they stayed in McMinnville after the birth of Elizabeth under the tree, but it may actually have been for a few years. Many people did settle in the McMinnville area. It was a promising place to be. However, the family shows up in the 1850 census, John, Celia, Elizabeth, and a new brother John had moved to East Tennessee, to McMinn County, not to be confused with McMinnville in Central Tennessee. Selah's extended family, most of the Norvell clan are shown to be living in McMinn County as well. So, they had moved from North Carolina. John and Selah met them there and lived a number of years. The Meltons, on the other hand, the family that had been traveling with them, kept on to Kentucky, and the 1850 census shows them living as farmers in Henderson County. The 1860 census shows John, Celia, and the Wilson family in Ozark, Missouri. But then, other records show that they moved to Central Kentucky in the mid-1860s. The beginning and end of the civil war might have had something to do with these movements. Obviously, the Wilsons and Meltons met up again because James and Elizabeth were married on January 1, 1867, in Henderson County, Kentucky. They ended up having eight children together, six of whom survived childbirth. The Birthing Tree brought them pretty good luck after all. Years later, after Hobart Massey met Vessie Gibson in Madisonville, he invited her back to McMinnville to see The Birthing Tree. Before she arrived, he painted a picture of it in oil and presented it to her underneath the spreading, marvelous oak tree her grandmother was born under. [music] Doug Still: [43:37] What makes The Birthing Tree so special, and why is it important to you? Jimmy Haley: [43:42] I think part of the reason it's so special is because it survived. It survived the urbanization and development all around there. There's hospitals, there's hotels, there's clinics all around that area. The State Area Technology School is there. Motlow campus is there. There's several factories in and around. So, within just a quarter mile, there's a lot of development and there's a lot of asphalt, and there's a lot of pavement, and a four-lane highway running within just a few feet of the tree. So, just that it survived when the all the other trees around it have gone, to me, makes it a little special. It does. Doug Still: [44:27] And six generations of your family have stood underneath that tree? Jimmy Haley: [44:32] Yes. Doug Still: [44:33] Most likely. Jimmy Haley: [44:34] Most likely. Tom Simpson: [44:36] Well, it's just the history of these trees is just fascinating to me, I guess. Doug Still: [44:41] Yeah. Tom Simpson: [44:42] Yeah, I love trees because I went to college and learned about forestry, and I've spent my life in forestry, but my second love was history. And to combine those two-- Doug Still: [44:55] Yeah, that's exactly why I do this. Tom Simpson: [44:58] Yeah. [laughs] Doug Still: [45:00] Just the combination - it's a living link to the past… Tom Simpson: [45:04] It is indeed. Yes, sir. Doug Still: [45:05] and historical events. I think that has a lot of inspiration for people. This Old Tree with Doug Still
Guarding the Cedars: Gilgamesh, and John Perlin’s “A Forest Journey” (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 10 Published February 13, 2023 Gilgamesh reading: [00:05] Gilgamesh seated himself on his throne. In the street of Uruk the City, the crowd was sitting before him. Thus, Gilgamesh spoke to the elders of Uruk the City. "Hear me, O Elders of Uruk the City. I would tread the path to ferocious Humbaba. I would see the God of whom men talk, whose name the lands do constantly repeat. I will conquer him in the forest of cedar. Let the land learn Uruk's offshoot is mighty. Let me start out, I will cut down the cedar. I will establish forever a name eternal!" Doug Still: [00:49] That is a passage from The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Sumerian myth from the third and second millennium BC. The story takes place in ancient Mesopotamia, and it's the earliest piece of literature to have been recovered anywhere. I know what you're thinking. What does this have to do with our show? It turns out that trees play a central role in this tale. Will Gilgamesh, the King of Uruk, succeed in killing Humbaba, God's fearsome guardian of the sacred forest? Will he cut down all the cedars? If he does, will he be a hero? Or will there be tragic consequences to pay? What will be left, and what will it mean for his kingdom? These themes can be found in John Perlin's newly republished book, A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization. Trees and the abundance of wood have been an overlooked driver of the rise and the fall of the world's great societies. Perlin highlights the Gilgamesh story. In fact, his title A Forest Journey is from the epic. But his fascinating, wide-ranging book investigates the patterns of wood consumption and depletion across the globe and throughout history. Forest conservation has great implications for the fight against the climate crisis, and therefore our survival. So, why are we so bad at it? John Perlin is here with me today to talk about his book about trees and civilization and the story of Gilgamesh and the Cedar Forest. I'm Doug Still and welcome to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:41] John Perlin is an intellectual, author, and historian who currently serves as visiting scholar within the Department of Physics at the University of California at Santa Barbara, where he lives. He's written three books on the history of solar energy, and with David Kennard, he co-wrote the documentary, The Power of the Sun. He also wrote A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization. It was first printed in 1989 when it won all sorts of accolades. It was chosen as Book of the Year by the Chicago Geographical Society and a classic in science and world history by the Harvard University Press. The very impressive new edition is available now through Patagonia Press, soon to be available everywhere. But at the start of our interview and before I could even welcome John to the show, he was often running. Keeping up with the workings of John's mind is like holding back the great deluge. John Perlin: [03:37] What happened was after 1989, so much has happened in forestry and so many new discoveries that Patagonia let me run, as I was telling you earlier, with all this new information that I was gathering. It began 385 million years ago with the first true tree. This is what I call This Old Tree, right? Doug Still: [04:03] Yeah. Archaeopteris. John Perlin: [04:05] Archaeopteris, which because there was one land mass, there was only one land mass called Gondwanaland, it easily spread throughout the entire terrestrial world. It helped initiate the great drawdown of CO2 and the great increase in oxygen, which made our living earth for large terrestrial creatures. So, wherever you find Archaeopteris, you usually find fossils of the first four-legged creatures. Doug Still: [04:41] John and I met on a previous call when we must have talked for over an hour. That's when he first told me about Archaeopteris, the first real tree and now the topic of the first chapter in the revised edition of his book. He excitedly showed me fossils of Archaeopteris, from Pennsylvania that he had in his collection. They were really cool. Well, I appreciated seeing the fossils of Archaeopteris that you sent me via email. John Perlin: [05:06] It was amazing. I spent like two weeks every day digging. The reason why that site is so good is because the Department of Transportation of Pennsylvania had widened the road. So, they made a cut, it turned out, into this ancient lake and all this Archaeopteris material and ancillary animals like fish deposited slowly in the bottom of the lake. What I really discovered is you have these two events juxtaposed to each other that really tells us about the value of trees, is the one is the Archaeopteris story. Doug Still: [05:50] Yes. John Perlin: [05:51] And then the End-Permian extinction, where the two factors of the extinction when we almost lost life both on land and sea, was increased CO2 and increased deforestation are the two factors that caused this catastrophic event. Doug Still: [06:12] Before getting to the meat of his book, I had a random question. I know from our previous conversations and what you've been telling me now, that you've traveled the world to bolster your research. When I was searching online, I saw a quick mention about a surfboard in one of your bios. John Perlin: [06:31] All right. I brought the first surfboard to Israel. Doug Still: [06:35] [laughs] In addition to reading ancient texts and drawing connections between world cultures through the history of science, are you also a surfer? John Perlin: [06:44] Yeah. You have to understand, I grew up in Southern California, and when I was 11, I did my first surfing in Baja. One of the perks of being at the University of California, Santa Barbara as an undergraduate is they have some of the best waves in the world. Doug Still: [07:04] Yeah, you were living the life. John Perlin: [07:06] But also learning how to write science at the same time. Doug Still: [07:12] Well, I greatly enjoyed reading the book. Its content has a huge reach. Combined with the fact that parts of your book are about ancient history and also about forestry, well, I just gobbled it up. John Perlin: [07:25] Well, forestry played such a role. The only reason Greece initially was interested in Rome, for example, was because of its vast woodlands, which actually caused an Italian friend of mine to just laugh for about, like, an hour, because there aren't any trees where the big forests in Rome that fed the war machines of Greece, for example. Doug Still: [07:52] The book is basically a comprehensive history of how forests have shaped human life and civilization, specifically the exploitation of forests. John Perlin: [08:00] Well, let me interrupt you. Also, this was for me the aha moment, was few people realize the role forests play in past civilizations as far as their development, because you would have no Middle Ages if there wasn't wood fuel. Even in the neanderthal, when they developed wood handles for their tools, was a great revolution. Then, think of the ships that most of the cargo to this day is transported in. Until, what was it, 1861, 1862 with Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimack, ships were all wood. Doug Still: [08:49] Well, your methods of examination are a combination of scientific studies, art, oral histories, and sometimes millennial old literature. That's what's going to bring us to the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is- [crosstalk] John Perlin: [09:04] Ah-ha. Doug Still: [09:04] -one of my high-time interests here but we're going to get back to that. I'd like to take a look at what I thought were the three key ideas in your book. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. [laughs] John Perlin: [00:09:17] Okay. Doug Still: [09:18] First off, as you were just saying, trees have been a principal fuel and building material for just about every society over the millennia. And we kind of knew this but your point is that it's an under-appreciated fact. John Perlin: [09:31] Correct. Well, sometimes what's most recognizable, people don't see. In fact, I gave several lectures at Oxford on A Forest Journey, and I went to the Ashmolean Museum, which is the gem of Oxford, and they showed all the artifacts that could have never happened without wood, but they never show the wood or its derivative, charcoal. Doug Still: [10:04] Right. John Perlin: [10:05] But what I'd like to emphasize is that it was just looking at me, staring at me, and I didn't understand why nobody had gone into it. Doug Still: [10:15] It's one of the basics of society. John Perlin: [10:18] Yeah. Just like back in Greece, say, you could not transport anything without amphorae, and you couldn't have amphorae without heat, and you couldn't have heat without wood fire. Doug Still: [10:37] Homes, public buildings, even if the buildings were marble or stone or brick, the structures, scaffolding, they needed wood. John Perlin: [10:45] Well, not only that but just think on that point right there. You couldn't have like-- I was seeing that the other day, an aqueduct is made primarily of stone, but you had to-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [10:56] To form it. John Perlin: [10:57] You had to paste the-- I guess you had to put the stones together and you required lime, and that lime required to be removed from limestone, which required a tremendous amount of wood fuel. Doug Still: [11:14] Yeah. And the list goes on and on. To create bronze or create weapons, you needed heat. Glass, pottery, ships. I think you made this point, even currency to make coins. John Perlin: [11:28] Yeah. For example, the mines of Laurion, which financed the building of the ships that defeated the Persians at [unintelligible 00:11:37]. If they didn't have wood fuel to turn the silver ore into silver, we would all be speaking Persian. Doug Still: [11:52] After the break, more from John Perlin and how forests shaped human civilization. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Gilgamesh reading: [12:09] Find the table box of cedar, release its clasp of bronze, lift the lid of its secret, pick up the tablet of lapis lazuli, and read out the travails of Gilgamesh, all that he went through. Gilgamesh, so tall, magnificent, and terrible, who opened passes in the mountains, dug wells on the slopes of the uplands, and crossed the ocean, the wide sea, to the sunrise. Doug Still: [12:43] Which brings us to idea number two. John Perlin: [12:45] Okay, glad to do that. Doug Still: [12:48] [laughs] As civilizations grow, forests recede. John Perlin: [12:52] Well, yeah, that's straight out of the Bible. I mean, it's in Isaiah where Isaiah talks about how Sargon the Great has been killed. Isaiah takes the-- Oh, you might say, the personification of a tree, and says how happy he is and his fellow trees are, that you don't have civilization coming in. I'm just showing you things I never knew before. Did you know that because of the great forest in the Middle East at that time, there was a plethora of, say, elephants? So, you have all these-- what do they call, stele bragging about how many elephants I killed. But what really sealed the deal was they found bones of ancient elephants in Northern Syria. Doug Still: [13:48] And their habitat was eliminated. John Perlin: [13:51] Yes, so that's another part, just to add to it, is when you eliminate the forest, you eliminate the habitat. Doug Still: [13:58] You quoted Ovid when you were talking about forest receding and civilization. Do you remember that quote? John Perlin: [14:04] Oh, yeah. He said that basically, oh, "The pine sails away when we reach the Iron Age." Doug Still: [14:15] [laughs] I have it here. "Even the pine tree stood on its own very hills. But when civilization took over, the mountain oak, the pine were felled." John Perlin: [14:25] Yeah. Also, Lucretius says the same thing where he talks about how he watches almost all the trees running up the hills as they remove them. This is an issue too for vineyards. Cicero was really angry because he said, "I would rather see no drink in Rome than to lose all our great oaks for the grapevines." Doug Still: [14:55] Which brings me to point number three. John Perlin: [14:57] Okay. Doug Still: [14:58] As forests recede, civilizations recede, or at least they enter a stage of a crisis-- John Perlin: [15:06] Or they enter-- or I would like to add too to be accurate, we find-- sometimes, like England and like the United States, they made the leap from wood to fossil fuels. But we know that does not bode well either. Doug Still: [15:24] Yeah. If there's a crisis, then whatever society we're talking about has some options, I guess. Either territorial expansion, the Romans were a really good example of that and the movement into Gaul and Germania. John Perlin: [15:41] Well, just to add, remember, the Greeks actually did the first where they moved into Sicily for the wood. Magna Graecia. Doug Still: [15:50] So, that would be depending on how you term it, expansion or movement of peoples or at least a portion of them. John Perlin: [15:57] Just to interrupt you. Also, the whole movement from England to North America. Doug Still: [16:04] Yeah, absolutely. Or it could be collapse. Some societies just didn't make it and they were absorbed by a neighbor. John Perlin: [16:12] Totally correct. That's what happened with Greece, as Greece became dependent on wood from Sicily and Rome. Doug Still: [16:22] Well, I know it's all very complicated, and there are many different forces - climate change, food, the need for silver or gold or slaves or whatever. But the wood, the forest is an underappreciated reason for explanation. John Perlin: [16:40] You serve like my shill because you take the slave trade. I went to a conference on iron and slavery at UCLA. And I learned from there that Africa, unlike what we learned in the history of books, was not dark Africa. They actually developed steel 1000 years before the Europeans. They, to produce iron, really deforest. What happened was about the 16th century or 17th century, iron meant power. Weapons. If you had iron weapons, you could like really kick ass. Doug Still: [17:28] Right. You can go get somebody else's forest. John Perlin: [17:30] Exactly. They started running out of fuel, meaning trees, in parts of Africa. So, they started trading people for iron from Sweden. Doug Still: [17:44] Yeah. Very sad. Interesting you bring up Africa as we're talking about the pattern of civilization growth, deforestation, scarcity, and then displacement or movement. There was a story on NPR yesterday. I don't know if you heard about it, but it was about the forest of Liberia. The title of the story was How forest guards in Liberia protect the sacred rainforests. It mainly was focusing on how important the forests are and sacred to many people. But Global Forest Watch determined that there's a loss of 100,000 hectares of natural forest in West Africa due to deforestation. And so, they've set up guards, and these people are heroes. John Perlin: [18:38] Actually, what happened is, this how large powers, for example, today export deforestation. The Chinese, for example-- and this is Liberia too. You're really a good host because you bring up issues that I really want to talk about, is the Chinese would have boats out in the ocean by Liberia. You've heard of the dictator, Taylor? He was the real monster in Liberia. This is about 20 years ago, and the Chinese would trade arms right to the dictator for trees. This is how the Chinese have been able to reforest their country by exporting deforestation in other countries. Doug Still: [19:30] Well, that's what the British did and that's what we did in New England. John Perlin: [19:35] That's why what makes A Forest Journey universal is because the story continues. Gilgamesh reading: [19:44] Gilgamesh, the perfect in strength, suckling of the august Wild Cow, the Goddess Ninsun! Who scoured the world ever searching for life, and reached through sheer force Uta-napishti the Distant; who restored the cult-centers destroyed by the deluge, and set in place for the people the rites of the cosmos. Who is there can rival his kingly standing, and say like Gilgamesh, "It is I am the king?" John Perlin: [20:23] Your mention of the value of force, forest are even more valuable today than they were in times past, because-- and this is what really makes the book new, is there's a whole section on current discoveries from, say, the 1990s, when the book was published, to current, and it turns out that forests-- okay, people believed for the longest time that ocean evaporation was the way we got rain. But now, new research shows that about 40% of the precipitation in the world comes from the forest through evapotranspiration. Doug Still: [21:03] Transpiration. Mm-hmm. John Perlin: [21:04] And also that forests, they serve as relays of rain to like rivers to very far off places. For example, the rainforests in the Congo contribute about 40% of the water to the Nile. Doug Still: [21:22] Interesting. John Perlin: [21:24] And also, we learned, and this is the part that really fascinates me, is since 1994, we're really learning the value of roots and the role they play in carbon sequestration, for example. We knew that they were valuable in creating soil. Doug Still: [21:45] Describe, then, the processes when the forest is cleared. John Perlin: [21:49] Until the 1990s, people had anthropomorphized old growth in that they thought that, well, when a tree gets older, right, it's like someone in a skilled nursing home. While that has proven to be totally false and they are the best sequesters of carbon, and that destroyed the rationale for timber harvests. Like treating them like crops. Doug Still: [22:19]. Right. Like the younger trees grow faster, so they're sequestering more carbon. That's not true. Just to be clear, sustainable forestry practices have come a long way in the last half-century. We know how to do it, and it's practiced in some parts of the world. And yet, from the year 2000 to 2020, there was a 2.4% net loss in tree cover globally. According to Global Forest Watch, the total area of humid primary forest decreased by 6.7% in about the same period. Also, through soil erosion, the carbon that's just in the soil. John Perlin: [22:59] Oh, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought up that point because you can have as much-- I think it's in the boreal forest, like 60% or 70% of the carbon is in the soil. Doug Still: [23:09] You're not just removing the carbon that's embodied in the trees. It's the whole system. John Perlin: [23:16] Well, actually, that's the tragedy of the United States, for example, is in the 19th century removing all the trees-- from the Atlantic to almost the Mississippi, it was one great forest. Once we removed that great forest, then we went into deep plowing. So, we not only destroyed the sequesters, but we added carbon from the soil. Doug Still: [23:48] I've come into close contact with it on Cape Cod. I lead forest walks in the summer in the outer Cape. And they're interesting forests. They're not as diverse as they once were. It was completely cleared in the 17th and 8th to the mid-19th century. They needed fuel for their homes and to clear agriculture. And then, Thoreau describes it as just this waste land. He is in Truro, and he can see all the way to the Provincetown, and not a tree in sight. John Perlin: [24:23] Wow. Doug Still: [24:24] It's hard to imagine when we're walking through the forest that it was like that. But if you can see the signs because there's mainly pitch pines and black oak and white oak but it's not the diversity that they used to have. And so, there it is. It's hard for us to imagine now the forest that we have in New England that was completely cleared. Gilgamesh reading: [24:50] Gilgamesh was his name from the day he was born. Two-thirds of him God, but one-third human. Four cubits was the width of his chest. A triple cubit was his foot. Half a rod his leg. Six cubits was his stride. Three cubits long the curls at his cheeks. Doug Still: [00:25:15] Well, let's get to Gilgamesh. John Perlin: [25:16] Okay, let's get to Gilgamesh. Doug Still: [25:17] Okay. John Perlin: [25:18] I love Gilgamesh. That's how I got the title of the book. Doug Still: [25:22] Yeah, I was going to say it's probably your key case study if you want to call it that. John Perlin: [25:27] Oh, yeah. Doug Still: [25:29] Because it's the earliest known piece of literature. John Perlin: [25:33] First epic. Doug Still: [25:35] You take the title of the book from-- was it tablet five? John Perlin: [25:39] Right. I owe the author of Gilgamesh, what, a use fee? Doug Still: [25:44] [laughs] Whose translation do you use? John Perlin: [25:48] The greatest scholar of cuneiform, Andrew George. Doug Still: [25:56] The Epic of Gilgamesh was written on clay tablets that were only discovered in the mid-19th century. The script is called cuneiform, a writing system of markings in the clay used for a number of languages in the ancient world. Tablets with different iterations of Gilgamesh were found in the Sumerian language but more completely in Akkadian, written by Babylonian scribes around 1800 BC. After their discovery, scholars deciphered the script, but the tablets were in hundreds of fragments found in different locations. Through the decades, they were pieced together, but there are still missing parts. Old as it may be, the tale is relatively new to modern appreciation. Who were the Sumerians and how did Uruk fit into their…? John Perlin: [26:41] Well, Uruk was the first Sumerian stronghold. It's hard to imagine, but at that time, and that was about 5000, 6000 years ago, Uruk was the first town among a wilderness. It's hard to think of Iran and Iraq being wilderness and that's because we removed all the trees. But at that time, there were gazelles, there were elephants. It was just lush, with monkeys. It was a paradise. Doug Still: [27:19] So, the forest wasn't just in the mountains originally. It was also in the plains? John Perlin: [27:24] Right. But the big trees were in the mountains. Actually, what happened, and this is the interesting thing about Gilgamesh, the story, is originally, where Gilgamesh went was in Eastern Iran. But other episodes that other monarchs used to compare themselves to Gilgamesh were in South-Central Turkey in the mountains. And then, after a couple of 1000 or 2000 years, it became the cedars of Lebanon. Doug Still: [28:01] Yes. John Perlin: [28:01] So, it's really interesting. You can actually follow the deforestation by the various iterations of the epic. Doug Still: [28:09] So, the cedar forest, which consisted of cedars of Lebanon, extended into Iraq, over to Iran-- [crosstalk] John Perlin: [28:17] Right, in the mountains. Doug Still: [28:19] In the mountains. So, it's more of a mountain species? John Perlin: [28:22] Right. It's like the same story once again, like the Americans in North America, the forests were a magnet to power. Doug Still: [28:33] Describe a cedar of Lebanon. Why was it valuable to them? John Perlin: [28:37] Because it's a very, very big tree. It has lots of lumber. Like the big trees of California, they were the big trees. They were a builder's dream. Also, they had this odor that was considered aroma for the Gods. Doug Still: [29:07] Now, in the story of Gilgamesh and I imagine in Sumerian society, these cedar forests were sacred. John Perlin: [29:14] Well, that's the whole story and that creates the story, is they were off limits to humans and they were sacred. The Gods made heaven on earth in the forest. It was like paradise. And that's where we get Genesis. In fact, in Genesis, Adam's first requirement from God is to-- I can even say it in Hebrew, but I'll say it in English, is to guard the trees. Doug Still: [29:46] Please say it in Hebrew. John Perlin: [29:48] Okay. [speaks in Hebrew]. Which means-- it almost means, like, defend, because in Israel, [Hebrew word] is used militarily. And it brought the waters-- they realized that it was the mother of the waters of the Tigris and the Euphrates which made the areas very rich and-- what do we say? The fertile crescent. Right? Doug Still: [30:17] That's right. John Perlin: [30:18] Okay. Without the trees, they realize at a very early time that-- I just read a paper on this actually, the trees were the mother of the waters that made civilization happen there. Doug Still: [30:37] You have a good quote, I wanted to read it. John Perlin: [30:39] Go ahead. Go for it. Doug Still: [30:41] "The Gods, according to the epic, had chosen this primeval forest as their home. Heaven was on Earth, just as it was in the Garden of Eden. There was always shade to temper the scorching sun of summer. The scent of cedar and juniper sweetened the surrounding air. Winds made celestial music as they played upon branches and leaves. Rivulets turned into brooks, brooks turned into streams, and then roared as great rivers into the Persian sea. The joy of living in the forest anchored the Gods to the earth." John Perlin: [31:13] Yeah, that's straight out of-- I was just paraphrasing Gilgamesh where-- and this was the really-- you asked me, well, how good a guy is Andrew George. Well, actually, in 2014, he published a new tablet with an Iraqi colleague. It's called the Ecological Gilgamesh. That text that was found in the first part of the 21st century, and then translated, showed a real ecological sensitivity where it talks about the monkeys, the insects, and the smell of the resin. It's just like heaven. Doug Still: [32:04] Yeah. Gilgamesh reading: [32:05] His cheeks were bearded, dark as gleaming lapis lazuli. The locks of his hair grew thickly as barley. When he grew tall, his beauty was consummate. Most handsome was he by the standards of men. Doug Still: [32:22] Who was Gilgamesh? John Perlin: [32:23] Gilgamesh was actually, they believe, one of the founding kings of that area of Uruk. It's like history begins at Uruk, and Gilgamesh begins at Uruk. Doug Still: [32:38] How would you describe Gilgamesh's personality? John Perlin: [32:42] Gilgamesh represented all the hubris of civilization. Gilgamesh reading: [32:47] In Uruk, the sheepfold, he walks back and forth like a wild bull, lording it, head held aloft. He has no equal when his weapons are brandished. His companions are kept on their feet by their contests. The young men of Uruk, he harries without warrant. Gilgamesh lets no son go free to his father. By day and by night, his tyranny grows harsher. Gilgamesh, the guide of the teeming people. John Perlin: [33:18] The macho-ness. Doug Still: [33:22] The alpha force. John Perlin: [33:24] Oh, yeah. Actually, there are scholarly papers on that, on the alpha force, on the macho-ness of not only-- he represented an ethos of the rulers for thousands of years, including today. Doug Still: [33:40] He's the protagonist, and he has a companion, Enkidu. John Perlin: [33:46] Okay, Enkidu, he was put on the Earth by the Gods to counter Gilgamesh's schemes. Gilgamesh reading: [33:55] The Goddess of Aruru, she washed her hands, took a pinch of clay, threw it down in the wild. In the wild, she created Enkidu, the hero, offspring of silence, knit strong by Ninurta. All his body is matted with hair. He bears long tresses like those of a woman. The locks of his hair grow thickly as barley. He knows not a people, nor even a country. Coated in hair like the God of the animals, with gazelles, he grazes on grasses, joining the throng with the herd at the watering hole. His heart delighting with beasts in the water. Doug Still: [34:42] He's the alter ego. John Perlin: [34:43] Alter ego. Right. And he's real hairy. He has hoofs, but he has a human brain. But what happens, and I don't-- I mean, it's really X-rated, is the way Gilgamesh was able to co-opt Enkidu was bring the loveliest of women-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [35:06] A harlot. John Perlin: [35:09] …out to where Enkidu is playing with his animal friends. Doug Still: [00:35:12] And there was a sexy scene. John Perlin: [35:13] You cannot believe it, what I mean, I would be banished from this podcast if I really-- in the writings, she does everything for him, and he's just like-- seven days of total pleasure. But suddenly, what happens is he sees that his relationship with the woman totally changes him, and none of his animal friends want to be with him anymore. Gilgamesh reading: [35:41] When his delights were fully sated, he turned his gaze to his herd. The gazelles saw Enkidu, they started to run, the beasts of the field shied away from his presence. Enkidu had defiled his body so pure, his legs stood still, though his herd was in motion. Enkidu was weakened, could not run as before, but now he had a reason and wide understanding. John Perlin: [36:12] And he's very weepy and all that, but she says, "Listen." Doug Still: [36:15] She humanizes him. John Perlin: [36:16] Yeah, right. She civilizes him. She says, "But listen, we have a great thing you can come to Uruk." But there, Gilgamesh and Enkidu have this big fight. Once again, alpha males. What happens is like a homoerotic story where they fight to a standstill and fall on the ground in each other's arms. Doug Still: [36:44] Sort of like a trial, in a way. John Perlin: [36:46] Yeah, right. It's a typical epic. Gilgamesh is actually dreaming of a great sword coming to Iraq. It's an amazing story. The long shot of it is they become buds. Doug Still: [37:07] What is the motivation for Gilgamesh to go and say, "I want to kill Humbaba"? First of all, let's talk about Humbaba. John Perlin: [37:15] Okay, Humbaba, for people in Uruk, Humbaba was like a demon. But for the people who lived in the forest, he was their God. Doug Still: [37:28] So, he was created or put there by a God. John Perlin: [37:32] To keep them out of their abode. Doug Still: [37:36] I think it was Enlil. John Perlin: [37:37] Enlil. He's the guy. He's the great Sky God. Doug Still: [37:40] Who loves the forest, the sacred forest. And Humbaba is there to protect it. John Perlin: [37:45] Correct. And so, what happens-- You ask the motivation. Okay, so what happens is Enkidu and Gilgamesh become lovers, but they start to get-- especially Gilgamesh gets bored. Gilgamesh reading: [37:58] Gilgamesh opened his mouth, saying to Enkidu. "Ferocious Humbaba, let us slay him so his power is no more. In the forest of cedar where Humbaba dwells, let us praise him in his lair." John Perlin: [38:14] Suddenly, Gilgamesh gets this bee in his bonnet, but he wants to go and make his name last forever once he learns he's only like two-thirds God, and then he's mortal, and Enkidu keeps on telling, "You don't want to go to that forest. You're full of dangers." Gilgamesh reading: [38:33] Enkidu opened his mouth, saying to Gilgamesh, "I knew him, my friend, in the uplands, when I roamed here and there with the herd. For 60 leagues, the forest is a wilderness. Who is there would venture inside it?" Gilgamesh opened his mouth, saying to Enkidu, "I will climb, my friend, the forest's slopes." Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "My friend, how can we go to the forest of cedar?" "So to keep safe the cedars. Enlil made it his lot to terrify men." "That is a journey which must not be made. That is a man who must not be looked on. He who guards the forest of cedar, his reach is wide. Humbaba, his voice is the deluge. His speech is fire. His breath is death." He hears the forest murmur at 60 leagues distance. "Who is there would venture into his forest?" John Perlin: [39:36] But Gilgamesh starts like a typical Semitic and guilt trips Enkidu by saying, "Look, if you don't go with me--" because Enkidu had been to the forest before, he said, "If you don't go with me, I'll probably die. Your best friend won't be alive. You should Shithead." [Doug laughs] And all the elders tell-- this is really telling of how forested this area was, is all the elders say, "Gilgamesh, don't go to the forest. Each way direction, it's like 10,000 leagues." But Gilgamesh, he's on it. Doug Still: [40:14] So, this is the heroic journey. John Perlin: [40:17] Exactly. Doug Still: [40:18] They're going to go up, and Gilgamesh wants to kill Humbaba, remove his head, and cut the trees down. He declares this before they go. John Perlin: [40:27] Yeah, but what happens, it's typical. It's like when the first people saw the giant sequoia, when they got to the cedar forest, they were so awestruck that they stopped for, like a day or two just to admire the great growth. Gilgamesh reading: [40:45] They stood there, marveling at the forest, gazing at the lofty cedars, gazing at the forest's entrance. Where Humbaba came and went, there was a track. They saw the mountain of cedar, seat of Gods and Goddesses, thrown on the face of the land. The cedar proffered its abundance. Its shade was sweet and full of delight. Thick tangle was the thorn. The forest a shrouding canopy. Cedars and gum trees all entwined, left no way in. For a league on all sides, cedars sent forth saplings. Cypresses grew thick for two-thirds of a league. Cedars scabbed with resin grew 60 cubits high. The resin oozed forth, drizzling down like rain, flowing freely for ravines to bear away. Through all the forest, a bird began to sing. Hen birds gave answer. A constant din was the noise. A solitary tree cricket set off a noisy chorus, sing a song, making the pipe loud. A wood pigeon moans. A turtle dove calls an answer. At the call of the stork, the forest exalts. At the cry of the francolin, the forest exalts amid plenty. Monkey mothers sing aloud. A youngster monkey shrieks like a band of musicians and drummers, daily they bash out a rhythm in the presence of Humbaba. Doug Still: [42:21] They were shocked how beautiful it was. John Perlin: [42:23] And the aroma and-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [42:25] They had to pause. John Perlin: [42:26] A pause. In that Ecological Gilgamesh, they're listening to all the-- you might say songs of the forest. But then, after a day Gilgamesh gives the battle cry. Doug Still: [42:44] Yeah. What makes him decide? Let's continue on. John Perlin: [42:48] Well, let's put it this way. They're avarice or their hubris always overshadows any kind of positive emotion. They've come their way-- weeks, they've been traveling. They're not going to go empty-handed. This talks about the universality of the poem, because we see all this repeated in North America, we see it repeated in the giant sequoia. At first, with the giant sequoia, people were just in awe. And then, they started to get real. "Let's get our axes." I have all those images, like the cotillion dancing on the base of a beheaded giant sequoia. Actually, I could go on and on, but anyway. Doug Still: [43:48] It's like this urge to conquer something. John Perlin: [43:51] It is. Doug Still: [43:52] If it's a natural object or if it's an elephant or it's a whale, it's a huge tree, you're in awe, you love it. But they still have to cut it down. This seems to be some awful universal impulse that humans have had. John Perlin: [44:08] Anyway, so there they are, and they see at first the beauty, but then they see the temples that they can build to perpetuate their name forever and forever. Doug Still: [44:20] They first start cutting down some trees, and then Humbaba comes out, right? John Perlin: [44:25] Right. Because he has ears that can hear 100 miles away. He has a fire that can strike you 100 miles away. He has a breath like a hurricane. But the thing is-- what really pacifies him, is he sees his old pal, Enkidu. Doug Still: [44:45] Well, actually, he starts tossing insults to the two of them, with extra vitriol for Enkidu, who has turned on him. Gilgamesh reading: [44:52] Humbaba opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "Let fools take counsel, Gilgamesh, with the rude and brutish, Why have you come here into my presence? Come, Enkidu, you spawn of fish who knew no father, hatchling of terrapin and turtle, who sucked no mother's milk. In your youth, I watched you, but near you, I went not. Now, in treachery, you bring before me Gilgamesh, and stand there, Enkidu, like a warlike stranger. I will slit the throat and gullet of Gilgamesh. I will feed his flesh to the birds of the forest, ravening eagle and vulture." Doug Still: [45:39] But Gilgamesh and Enkidu engage Humbaba in a ferocious battle, smiting the bedrock and breaking up the mountain. With assistance from the God Shamash, they end up seizing and subduing Humbaba. John Perlin: [45:52] He actually begs for his life, and he starts to try to make-- what do they say? A deal with a hangman. "If you don't hang me, I'll give you this and this amount of timber." But Enkidu, who is sort of like a convert, converts are more extreme than the regular person. Enkidu says, "Gilgamesh, this guy is just bullshitting you." Doug Still: [46:20] Just do it. John Perlin: [46:21] Just do it. Gilgamesh reading: [46:22] Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "Do not listen, my friend, to Humbaba's words of pleading. Why should his pleading even enter your mind? If he returns to his home, we shall be as unborn. He will bind us fast in the forest of cedar, then enter the grove and put on his auras. My friend, Humbaba, who guards the forest of cedar. Finish him. Slay him. Do away with his power." Doug Still: [46:52] They kill Humbaba. Gilgamesh stabs him in the neck, and Enkidu rips out his heart and lungs. But just before he dies, he leaves them with a curse. Gilgamesh reading: [47:03] Humbaba heard how Enkidu abused him. Humbaba lifted his head, weeping before Shamash, his tears flowing under the rays of the sun. "May the pair of them not grow old. Besides Gilgamesh, his friend, none shall bury Enkidu." Doug Still: [47:19] In victory, Gilgamesh and presumably his men proceed to cut down the trees in the cedar forest and send the wood down the Euphrates to Uruk to build temples, walls, and other works. John Perlin: [47:31] What's beautiful about the Ecological Gilgamesh is the trees all the way from Iran to Israel start to weep, because they know this is going to happen to them someday, which it did. It's beautifully done. Then, they start piling the timber. And they make rafts. It's exactly what Mark Twain writes in the 19th century, the great pines from Minnesota traveling down the Mississippi and Huckleberry Finn is all about that. Doug Still: [48:08] The loss and destruction shocks even Enkidu. Gilgamesh reading: [48:12] Gilgamesh went trampling through the forest to take resin from the cedars for the table of Enlil. Enkidu opened his mouth to speak, saying to Gilgamesh, "My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland. How shall we answer Enlil in Nippur. In your might, you slew the guardian. What was this wrath of yours that you went trampling the forest?" Doug Still: [48:36] According to John Perlin, this moral questioning of their act in defiance of the God, Enlil, is the first ethical critique of the deforestation that has led to the dilemma we face today. It is one reason why the Epic of Gilgamesh is a masterpiece. John Perlin: [48:53] When they get back to Uruk-- Doug Still: [48:56] How are they received? John Perlin: [48:58] Well, we don't know how the people receive them, but we know that Gilgamesh is partying like a frat guy with all these babes. He thinks he's quite the dude. "Wowie, zowie. I'm the dude. I've conquered the cedar forest." He doesn't realize that the Gods are in conference about what we should do with these assholes, who've ruined our place. So, what they do is they decide to invoke Humbaba's curse, and Humbaba's curse is, "Now that you're killing me, one of you is going to die and then there'll be no one to mourn the other's passing." And finally, they come to a decision where Enkidu will be killed. Doug Still: [49:51] Enkidu is chosen to die by the Gods. He sees it in a dream. He dies from illness, and Gilgamesh feels the loss. For a while, he wanders the earth, pondering the meaning of his own mortality. Both Enkidu and Gilgamesh have faced the consequences of their deeds. Gilgamesh reading: [50:10] Said the tavern keeper to him, to Gilgamesh, "If you and Enkidu were the ones who slew the guardian, destroyed Humbaba, who dwelt in the forest of cedar, killed lions in the mountain passes, seized and slew the bull come down from heaven, why are your cheeks so hollow, your face so sunken, your mood so wretched, your visage so wasted?" Doug Still: [50:34] In its context, do you think Gilgamesh was a hero, or was he a transgressor, or was he some of both? John Perlin: [50:42] Well, I think it depends on whose eyes. For the rulers of the areas in the Middle East, for about 1000 years, they all tried to replicate and to legitimize their rule by repeating the feat of Gilgamesh. Like I said before, that's really interesting because the geography of where the forest is in transition because they cut down one area, so they have to go to another area. So, they go all the way from Eastern Iran to Lebanon in like a couple of thousand years. But it's celebrated. You'll see in my book, I have the illustrations of the celebration of repeating Gilgamesh's foray into the forest. Doug Still: [51:38] And what about Humbaba? He's a scary, terrible monster. He’s an awful… John Perlin: [51:47] In the eyes of civilization. Doug Still: [51:49] Right. But his mission was to guard the sacred forest. John Perlin: [51:53] In the statuary of the Sumerians, say, "Humbaba was a demon to be conquered." But then, the idea of the indigenous people in Eastern Iran and in the eyes of God-- and this is what makes the whole story so beautiful. In the eyes of God, he was the person who acted as the boundary of civilization to protect the natural beauty. Doug Still: [52:26] Right, from civilization. So, it's not all black and white, is it? John Perlin: [52:31] Well, that's why it makes it such a great story. [agreed] If it were just black and white, it would not have lasted. It's a very nuanced story. What's most amazing about it, there's at least 50 or 60 different versions that were created over the millennia. Doug Still: [52:51] So, even from this time, the ancients understood that these forests should be protected, on one hand. And on the other hand, they're perfect to build our temples with and to build ships and everything else. John Perlin: [53:07] And now you have the entire story of the yin and the yang of A Forest Journey. That's why I say Gilgamesh is like a cliff note or something like that of what's going to happen in the entire book. That's what makes the Gilgamesh story so great, is because we have never changed. Doug Still: [53:26] Overall, that's a pretty scary ecological message. John Perlin: [53:31] Basically, it's avarice and self-interest that guide civilization. Doug Still: [53:40] So, what does this mean for us today? How can we possibly stop this cycle that has gone on for 5000 plus years? Or how do we at least alter the cycle in favor of protectionism? John Perlin: [53:54] Well, if we can reflect on the stories that I present, possibly some people will clue in, especially now that we know-- we didn't know until recently all the amazing services that trees provide-- In fact, it's an existential question, actually, whether or not we want to survive as a species. But we don't have a very good record. My whole hope is that we discover a new ethos where it might be better not to do anything. Doug Still: [54:34] I do think that there's power in storytelling and understanding ourselves, and that's why telling the story of Gilgamesh, and all of these other stories that you include in your book, is so important. John Perlin: [54:47] Well, that's why I really believe, like you say, in storytelling, storytelling empirical fact. Doug Still: [54:56] We need that, but we need to get people to understand it and feel it for action to occur. John Perlin: [55:03] And that's why I wrote the book. Doug Still: [55:05] Do you see hope? John Perlin: [55:07] Hopefully, it'll bring a new ethos where we see Humbaba as the hero. Doug Still: [55:14] Yeah, we need more Humbabas. [music] Doug Still: [55:18] And I'm going to leave it there. I'd like to thank John Perlin for a fascinating, enjoyable discussion. That was a lot of fun. His book, A Forest Journey: The Role of Trees in the Fate of Civilization, is available now. It is gorgeous, and it comes with a QR code that links to interactive maps, timelines, a teacher's guide, and a reader's guide to deepen the experience. I'd also like to thank Martha Douglas-Osmundson for her mesmerizing reading of passages from Gilgamesh. Once again, thank you, tree lovers, for listening. I have one small ask. If you've been enjoying the show, please share the link with friends to help get the word out. Your support is so appreciated. You can also tell them that we need more Humbabas. Let them ask what that means. I'm Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Gilgamesh reading: [56:30] Ever do we build our households. Ever do we make our nests. Ever do brothers divide their inheritance. Ever do feuds arise in the land. Ever the river has risen and brought us the flood, the mayfly floating on the water. On the face of the sun, its countenance gazes. Then all of a sudden, nothing is there. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Charter Oak (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 9 Published January 30, 2023 Doug Still: [00:03] There's no mistaking the original site of the historic Charter Oak in Hartford, Connecticut. Jack Hale from the Hartford Tree Advisory Commission took me and my friend, Jean Zimmerman, there recently. Okay, Jack, where are we right now? Jack Hale: [00:19] We are at the corner of Charter Oak Avenue and Charter Oak Place, which is the location where the Charter Oak was planted. Doug Still: [00:29] I guessed that. Jack Hale: [00:31] Yeah. [chuckles] Doug Still: [00:31] Funny that they named it that. Down the block is the Charter Oak Cultural Center, the Capital Spirits Charter Oak Liquor Store, and Charter Oak Memorial Park. In fact, there are probably hundreds of businesses across the state with 'Charter Oak' in the name, from a state college to a credit union to a brewery. It's even on the Connecticut state coin. What is this phenomenon? Jack Hale: [00:54] Yeah, if you look at the wall of that apartment building, there's a plaque there to that effect. Doug Still: [01:03] The Charter Oak Place Apartments. Jack Hale: [01:06] [laughs] Yes. Jean Zimmerman: [01:07] And that's the Obelisk? Jack Hale: [01:09] The Obelisk is a memorial to the tree, but the actual location of the tree was where the apartment building is. Doug Still: [01:20] I mentioned Jean Zimmerman. She's an arborist and author of seven books, who is currently working on a book about America's complicated love affair with our forests. Jean joins me in this episode to help get to the bottom of the Charter Oak legend and how it became part of the founding myth of Connecticut. I'm Doug Still, and you're listening to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: [02:02] First off, I'd like to recognize the land in and around Hartford as once belonging to a confederation of indigenous tribes of the Algonquin people. In fact, the name Connecticut comes from the Algonquin word 'quinnetukut,' meaning "Long Tidal River." These peoples included the Podunks, the Poquonocks, the Massacoes, the Tunxis, the Wangunks, and the Saukiogs, where Hartford itself is located. Now, I'd like to welcome Jean Zimmerman to the show. Hi, Jean. How are you doing today? Jean Zimmerman: [02:37] I'm doing fine, Doug. How are you? Doug Still: [02:39] I'm doing great. I'm doing great. We met about six weeks ago when you submitted a Tree Story Short to the program. Jean Zimmerman: [02:47] That's right. Uh-huh. Absolutely. Doug Still: [02:49] It was a great one. That was on a beech tree that you grew up with. Jean Zimmerman: [02:54] A copper beech tree called "The Elephant Tree." Doug Still: [02:56] That was a great story. I loved it. Jean Zimmerman: [02:58] Thank you. Doug Still: [02:59] Afterwards, we started chatting about historic trees, and somehow, we got on to talking about the Charter Oak in Connecticut. Jean Zimmerman: [03:08] Right. Well, the Charter Oak is a famous tree for Connecticut people, but also for other people, I think. Doug Still: [03:14] Yeah. Neither of us are from Connecticut. I'm from Rhode Island. Jean Zimmerman: [00:03:17] And I'm from just north of New York City. Doug Still: [03:20] I remember neither of us really got why this tree was so important to Connecticutters. Jean Zimmerman: [03:25] Right. I guess we wanted to know more, and we thought we would pursue it. We did some quick searches, of course, on the Internet, and we found a basic outline of the story of the Charter Oak. Doug Still: [03:38] Yeah, there's like a general narrative out there that you read over and over. Jean Zimmerman: [03:42] There's a general narrative, and some people in Connecticut know some of it and some know some other part. It's interesting though, the background. Doug Still: [03:51] Yeah. Maybe you could give us an outline of the story. Jean Zimmerman: [03:54] Absolutely. It was in the 1660s, pre-revolution, in what was to become Connecticut, and the Charter for the colony of Connecticut was given by the king of England. The colony was relatively self-governing. But along about 1687, the new king decided that the number of colonies should be merged into one larger colony. So, he wanted to revoke Connecticut's charter. So, he sent a henchman to Hartford to come take it back. Doug Still: [04:29] Oh, boy. So then, this leads to the big legend. Jean Zimmerman: [04:34] On October 31, 1687, there was a meeting with state dignitaries in a local tavern in Hartford. The charter was sitting on a table between all of the players here. At one point, amazingly, all the candles blew out at the same time. That's the- [crosstalk] Doug Still: [04:52] Miraculous. Jean Zimmerman: [04:53] -right. It was miraculous. And when they were relit, the charter was gone. So, who knows where it went? Well, apparently it later came out that it had been whisked out of the room by somebody and brought to an old white oak tree that grew nearby. This is the tree that became known as the Charter Oak because the charter was hidden inside a big hollow in the trunk. Well, what happened next is the king's men couldn't retrieve the Charter. They couldn't find it, they didn't know where it was. And voila, Connecticut's rights were saved. And that's the story. Doug Still: [05:32] Yeah. I think that's what most people know. Like, if you were to ask somebody in Connecticut, that's what they would describe or something along those lines. Jean Zimmerman: [05:42] Right. They might not know the name of the king, or they might not know the name of the land it was on, but they do know something about the Charter being rescued. Doug Still: [05:55] It's a great story. I love it, but it kind of seems a little bit far fetched. Jean Zimmerman: [06:00] Yeah, I mean, it does seem hard to believe, especially the candles blowing out. I think you and I agree that's kind of a crazy detail. Doug Still: [06:08] It's amazing that this story has been passed down for hundreds of years. What do you think its power is? We had no idea, not being from Connecticut. Jean Zimmerman: [06:19] I don't know. I think it's good to ask why there's such veneration for this particular tree and why is there even this mysticism surrounding it. I'd love to find out more. Doug Still: [06:32] Yeah. Why this tree? And do people still care? Jean Zimmerman: [06:35] Absolutely. It sounds as though they do, but I'd just like to get down and find out more about it. Doug Still: [06:41] Well, we both had the chance to interview some wonderful people to find out some of these questions, and we got to meet each other in Hartford. How fun was that? Jean Zimmerman: [06:51] That was really fun, and it was a great day. Doug Still: [06:53] Well, to start things off, I met separately with Robert Storm to get the best description of the actual events that I could find. He is a lawyer and a historian who also holds the title, Honorary Governor General of the Society of Colonial Wars of the State of Connecticut. Do you have any idea what that means? Jean Zimmerman: [07:15] It sounds important, but no. Doug Still: [07:19] [laughs] Well, I didn't either, but let's find out. [music] Doug Still: [07:31] Hi, Robb. Welcome to the show. Robert Storm: [07:33] Thank you, Doug. Doug Still: [07:34] What is the Society of Colonial Wars and how does one get to be a member? Robert Storm: [07:40] Ah, interesting questions, both of them. The society was founded in the early 1890s in New York, and in 1893, founded in Connecticut. It's comprised of men who are descended from men who fought in a colonial war. That is anything between 1607 and April 19th, 1775, when the revolution broke out. Or they have an ancestor who was distinguished in the civil life of the particular colony through which they are claiming membership. Doug Still: [08:19] Like a governor or a town selectman or something? Robert Storm: [08:23] Yes, governor, a member of the colonial legislature, perhaps a judge. Doug Still: [08:28] Robb described a couple of his ancestors who fit this description and then went on to say that there's a parallel organization for women called The Daughters of Colonial Wars. What kinds of things do you talk about at the meetings? Robert Storm: [08:41] Those topics are wide and varied, and that's one of the chief pleasures of belonging to the Society of Colonial Wars. Doug Still: [08:47] Are they top secret? Robert Storm: [08:49] Of course, never to leave the table. [chuckles] We talk about everything from politics to visual aesthetics to the latest romance of one of the members. But for the most part, it's a society that has an intense history and an intense interest in history. Doug Still: [09:08] Has the Charter Oak ever come up? Robert Storm: [09:10] On rare occasions, but early in the last century, it was a primary focus of the group. In fact, the monument that was originally placed at the site of the Charter Oak itself, which blew down in a horrendous storm back in the summer of 1856, that was remembered by the society early after its establishment. We put up a large stone monument on the site of the old Charter Oak in, if I remember correctly, 1910. Doug Still: [09:42] The Obelisk, Jean, Jack and I found earlier. Then, I asked Rob to set the stage for our story prior to 1687. What was the Connecticut Charter who issued it, and what did it mean for the colony of Connecticut? Robert Storm: [09:57] Connecticut has an extraordinary colonial history. Most of the 13 states, original states, were founded as individual colonies. Connecticut was founded as three separate colonies. Doug Still: [10:10] And they were Puritans, meaning Protestants who felt that the Church of England hadn't sufficiently reformed and become Protestant enough. In England, King Charles I, had been beheaded in 1649 in a Civil War. Oliver Cromwell ruled as a de facto dictator until he died in 1658. And In 1660, Charles's son, Charles II, became king and restored the monarchy. Robert Storm: [10:37] Parliament decided to invite Charles II, the second son of the beheaded deposed king, to come back to England and rule. Doug Still: [10:47] He was hiding, or he was in Europe. Robert Storm: [10:48] Yes, he was in exile, principally at the French court. Charles came back very happily. But the irregular situation in which Connecticut found itself showed the Connecticut colony that theirs was a tenuous position to hold. So, they commissioned an agent to seek a charter-- a Royal charter, of course, at the time there was nothing else a Charter from the king, and he succeeded in getting it in 1662. [music] Doug Still: [11:25] Did other colonies seek charters as well? Robert Storm: [11:29] For the most part, other colonies already had charters, but Connecticut was an outlier. With its charter though, it had a legal existence basically as a corporation. Unlike most colonies, the physical location of the charter was here in America, in Hartford. In most colonies, the charter remained in London. When in 1685, Charles II's successor as king, his brother James II ascended the throne, part of James' attempt to make the colonies more governable was simple. He seized the colonies charters worked for, Massachusetts, for example-- Doug Still: [12:17] They already had them. Robert Storm: [12:17] Exactly. But he didn't have and couldn't get the Connecticut Charter. He wanted to make what he called "Dominion of New England," which wasn't simply New England, but soon thereafter also New York. So, you had the colonies of New England, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, plus New York governed as a single entity by a royally appointed governor. It was Sir Edmund Andros who caused the most trouble for Connecticut. Doug Still: [12:51] He was the one appointed as the dominion governor. Robert Storm: [12:54] Exactly. For a very brief period, there was a predecessor who proved unable to do what James wanted done. So, Andros repeatedly asked Connecticut to surrender its charter because under English law at that time, and the same law that had existed by precedence since the Middle Ages, without the physical charter, there was no legal authority. [music] Doug Still: [13:28] The people of Connecticut were being cagey. They did not want to give up their limited democracy. And as devout Puritans, they were very concerned about the religious beliefs of King James. Robert Storm: [13:43] James, however, had converted to Roman Catholicism, the great boogeyman of the Reformation. So, the colonists in Connecticut feared, and perhaps with some cause, that surrendering the charter and establishing the Dominion of New England would be only the first step of putting in again an ungodly, unbiblical government, not only in the civil sphere but also in the sphere of faith. Doug Still: [14:16] So, here comes Sir Edmund Andros. Robert Storm: [14:19] But Andros decided he would take action and came down from Boston, the capital of the Dominion and still, of course, as the leading city of New England. He came down with a ceremonial guard who in fact were really armed soldiers determined to help him take the charter by force if necessary. Doug Still: [14:43] And how many of them were there? Robert Storm: [14:44] We don't really know, but some people have guessed about 30. Connecticut had no standing army. It had a ready militia in forms of what were called trained bands. These were men who had to be called up for service and to have done that, to have opposed the unexpected ceremonial guard would have been a way of probably inciting a rebellion, if not a riot. [music] Doug Still: [15:17] We're going to take a brief pause. When we come back, Rob Storm tells us what happened when Sir Edmund Andros arrived in Hartford with one major goal, to confiscate Connecticut's charter. You're listening to This Old Tree. [music] Robert Storm: [15:38] He arrived late in August of 1687, ostensibly to visit the government in session, the General Assembly of Connecticut. But clearly, everyone knew he was going to ask for the charter, and he did demand it. "Well, we need to get it, we need to find it, we need to--" The actual surrender was delayed until evening. Doug Still: [16:07] Where are they meeting? Robert Storm: [16:10] That's a good question. Nobody knows for sure, but the legend usually has them in Standards Tavern which was about the place that the old State House stands now. So, a good three or four blocks away from the location of Charter Oak. Doug Still: [16:27] So, they met in a tavern? Robert Storm: [16:29] That's what we think, that it was upstairs in the tavern. Now, it's nightfall, necessary to light the candles. The box containing the charter, probably a long box square at the ends, that's put in the middle of the table with the assemblymen on one side and Andros and his retinue on the other side. They're discussing in order to make sure that certain questions are answered, that everything's done in good form, that everything happens just as it should. The assembly comes to the point of almost agreeing with everything that Sir Edmund had said that he wanted. It remains only for him to physically take possession of the charter. Doug Still: [17:18] So, it's looking like they're going to capitulate. Robert Storm: [17:21] Indeed, indeed. But then suddenly, the legend handed down in my family, some of my mother's ancestors were assemblymen at the time, is that the window was opened and a sudden gust of air came in from the night sky. [air gust sound] All the candles are extinguished. Well, they're quickly relit. It couldn't have taken more than a minute or two to have done that. But the table has nothing on it, except the candles. The box containing the charter has disappeared. Now, who took it? We don't really know. But the Wadsworth family has a constant legend that their ancestor, Captain Joseph, was the one who had taken it away in that very brief period in which everything was extinguished. Doug Still: [18:17] I see. I mean whenever I read about the legend, Joseph Wadsworth whisked away the charter, but you're saying that it started probably with the Wadsworth family in their oral history? Robert Storm: [18:30] Well, that's probably the case, but we don't really know. Captain Joseph is as good a possibility as any other. We do know that the governor and the deputy governor were still there at the table. We do know that some of the assemblymen still were there, but Captain Joseph might not have been the only one who was absent when the lights were relit. Doug Still: [18:57] In addition to being from a prominent Hartford family, Rob explained that Wadsworth was also a militia leader. Robert Storm: [19:04] Captain Joseph had his military title from being active in the trainband of Hartford. Doug Still: [19:12] So, he was the captain of a trainband? Robert Storm: [19:14] Exactly. The Militia Company of Hartford. Doug Still: [19:17] While at the Connecticut State Library, I did a little research on Joseph Wadsworth. One source was a Wadsworth family history from the 19th century, which gave him this description. "Joseph was an impetuous, aggressive, courageous, and resolute young man, and an early leader among the younger set of Hartford. He sounded like a tough guy, so I had to ask, was he there to show some force for the Connecticut side." And were they present or nearby during this night? Robert Storm: [19:50] I doubt sincerely that the militia were out at the time, and they were not uniformed, so there wouldn't have been any clear distinction for him to have had. But everyone on the Connecticut side would have known that he was a captain in the trained band. Doug Still: [20:07] Was he present in the room during most of the discussions? Robert Storm: [20:11] Well, again, that's what the legend says. Doug Still: [20:14] Would his presence have been seen as a threat to Sir Andros? Christopher Martin: [20:21] Probably not. Again, although the guards accompanying Sir Edmund were uninformed, and the trained bands of Connecticut did not have uniforms, so they would not have known who he was. Doug Still: [20:36] But he would have been somebody who had the courage. Robert Storm: [20:39] Exactly. Now, it's commonly believed that all of this was engineered in advance, that everyone knew that the candles would be extinguished. Who came up with the idea? I don't know, but it would have been Wadsworth or somebody like him who would have taken it out. Probably a good sprinter, if nothing else. Doug Still: [21:00] We don't know how he got it out of the room. He didn't jump through the window, right? Robert Storm: [21:05] Right. What I imagine is that there was a single staircase leading up to the second floor of the tavern and that the charter was on the end of the table nearest the staircase. Doug Still: [21:20] And so, what happened then when he left the building? Robert Storm: [21:25] Again, the legend. He ran with the box under his arm, I don't doubt, to the Willis Estate. That was what had been their farm-- was still the farm of Samuel Wyllys, again just a few blocks away. Doug Still: [21:41] Hartford at this time was still a small town with home lots for about only a few hundred people. Robert Storm: [21:47] The home lot was sufficiently big, two, three, four acres, that much of it retained a rural character, including this tree, which had been held as quasi-sacred by the Indians who had sold the land to the settlers two generations earlier. Doug Still: [22:07] Why do you think it was quasi-sacred? Robert Storm: [22:10] Again, this is a legend that's come down in the Wyllys' line, and it might not be entirely accurate, but most family legends in New England, I dare say, are based on truth. The legend is that the Indians, sometime after the sale of the land, came back to visit, and of course, the settlers allowed them to visit. There was no problem with that. Some of them then told Samuel Willis that this tree had been planted at the time that the tribe had originally entered what now is Connecticut, which would have been probably 300 years, 400 years before the sale of the property in the 1630s. So, the tree marked peace between tribes. It also was a marker for them of the settlement by the Indians of Connecticut. Last of all, it continued to be a guide to them for when they should plant corn. The story is that when the leaves budded and reached the size of a mouse's ear, which would be roughly the size of your little fingernail, that was the time to plant corn. Doug Still: [23:29] That's interesting that within their oral history, the tree was planted, it wasn't just a remnant tree. Robert Storm: [23:36] The Wyllys family and its descendants continued for some time to call it the Peace Oak or so again this family story goes. But it did get the new name not long after the encounter with Sir Edmund Andros. Doug Still: [23:51] So, that tree already had an aura around it of history and importance. [music] Doug Still: [24:03] It was quite old and had a big hollow, obviously. Robert Storm: [24:09] Exactly. It had already begun to rot, I'm afraid. Doug Still: [24:14] And the charter was in a box, so it had to have a cavity, it must be 3ft long. They'd put it in a tree in case one of their homes-- if they put it in a home, their home could have been searched. Robert Storm: [24:29] Exactly. Doug Still: [24:31] Who was Samuel Wyllys? Why was he important? Robert Storm: [24:35] Well, he was one of the leading members of the colony. His father had been governor. He was, by colonial standards, well to do. The home lot was substantial. The house was substantial, and the farm apparently was a very productive farm. Doug Still: [24:53] And clearly, it was on a hill, I visited, which probably had quite a view. Robert Storm: [24:57] Oh, yes. That, I think, probably was another reason for choosing the Charter Oak. First, it had a hollow. Second, it was far enough away from the tavern that it would not be under immediate suspicion. Thirdly, the house probably had windows on each side, so any attempt of anyone to come up to the house would have been seen with enough time to be able to make sure that the charter itself was safe. Doug Still: [25:27] What are the earliest records of this incident? In my research, I found A History of Connecticut by Trumble that was written in 1815, where this story, this legend, was recorded. But what are the earliest records of that? Robert Storm: [25:46] I've not seen what I'm about to mention, but I have on good authority from a cousin who died at the age of 101 with her memory fully intact that there were family letters within months of the incident, not detailing it but saying something to the effect of Sir Edmund had come down with his armed guard from Boston, demanded surrender of the charter. But the charter was spirited away right before his eyes. Well, we know that couldn't have occurred unless it were dark. So, the extinguishing of the candles makes sense in that regard. Apparently, in the early 1700, it was pretty common knowledge also that the incident had occurred. Doug Still: [26:33] So, these letters may still exist in someone's private collection? Robert Storm: [26:38] They may well, and I hope sincerely that they do. My cousin, Ellis, my grandfather's cousin who told me this, was speaking in the 1960s. And at that time, she was speaking as though the letters were definitely still existing. Doug Still: [26:57] Well, if anyone finds them, we'd love to know .[laughter] And so would the Museum of Connecticut History, Robb described one descendant of Joseph Wadsworth within his society who passed away in 2020, Frank Wadsworth. I asked if there are any descendants of Samuel Wyllys. Robert Storm: [27:15] There are. I'm not the only one. Doug Still: [27:18] You're one of them? Robert Storm: [27:19] I am through my mother's side. The family itself, sadly, no longer exists with the name of Wyllys. Doug Still: [27:28] Now, my fifth great-grandmother was Phoebe Wade of the Wade family. They lived in Lyme, Connecticut. Robert Storm: [27:38] It's a good Connecticut name. Doug Still: [27:39] Yeah. Robert Storm: [27:40] Its ancestry definitely goes back into the colonial period. So, if an armed guard shows up on your doorstep [Doug laughs] some time and says, "You must join the Society of Colonial Wars," you know what. Doug Still: [27:50] So, I can join, right? Robert Storm: [27:53] You can. Doug Still: [27:54] Well, from a historical perspective, it was looking more and more like the legend was real, or mostly so. But Jean and I wanted to see what parts of the legacy can still be found. So, we met in Hartford on a mild December afternoon. We started at the Connecticut State Library, an impressive, echoey building located across the street from the state capitol. It houses the state library, the Connecticut Supreme Court, and the Museum of Connecticut History. It was the museum we wanted to see because we learned that it holds the renowned charter that Joseph Wadsworth hid back in 1687. Doug Still: [28:30] Wow. Jean Zimmerman: [28:31] Wow. Doug Still: [28:32] This place is incredible, and there's nobody here. Jean Zimmerman: [28:34] And the floors are gleaming. Somebody takes very good care of this place. And we're surrounded by portraits of men. Doug Still: [28:39] [chuckles] Yes. Jean Zimmerman: [28:41] I don't know who these men are. Doug Still: [28:42] All white men. Jean Zimmerman: [28:43] All white men, and many of them in the Napoleonic pose with their hands in their coats. Doug Still: [28:52] Yes. The patriarchy. [laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [28:55] With the patriarchy. I'm assuming that these people are all perhaps past governors of the state. I'm not sure. Doug Still: [29:03] It appears to be, but I was told that the charter is on the far wall. Let's take a look. Jean Zimmerman: [29:13] You're standing on it, sorry, Doug. You're standing on the Charter Oak right now. [Doug laughs] I wish we could show a picture of this. Doug Still: [29:19] Well, I'll take a picture. It's inlaid brickwork with the oak, the Charter Oak. Jean Zimmerman: [29:24] Mm-hmm. Doug Still: [29:25] And then straight ahead is the Royal Charter of 1662. And it's in a wooden frame. It says, "Only the crest of the frame is thought to be of Charter Oakwood." Jean Zimmerman: [29:43] What's beautiful about it is that it's a kind of meta-statement, because it's carved of the Charter Oakwood, and it is also a sculpture of the Charter Oak leaves and acorns. Doug Still: [29:57] That's right. It's quite lovely, actually. Then, it says in 1893, the framed Charter was moved to the state library where we stand, which occupied what is now the State Senate chamber in the Capitol. Apparently, John Kinney, an editor of the Hartford Courant and a collector of historical relics, purchased the original frame and apparently had many smaller frames veneered with Charter Oak wood made from it. Jean Zimmerman: [30:27] Okay. Doug Still: [30:28] That just seems wrong to me. I'm sorry. Jean Zimmerman: [30:29] [laughs] Do you don't think that seems possible? How many frames could be made? Doug Still: [30:36] I don't know, but I bet we'll find some around the state. Jean Zimmerman: [30:39] Also, if you look above this particular framed Charter, you'll see another portrait of the Charter Oak on the wall. Doug Still: [30:47] Yes. You want to read what it says about it? Jean Zimmerman: [30:49] Sure. It says, Charles de Wolf Brownell, "In 1856, he executed the painting of the Charter Oak, which hangs above the Charter vault, done from an 1855 pencil sketch. The painting hung for many years in the office of the president of the Charter Oak Bank." It says the artist, Brownell, chose to depict the tree with, as he said, its remarkable branching, which extended south toward the Connecticut River. "The Brownell view was later used on the postage stamp and half a dollar commemorating Connecticut Tercentenary in 1935." Doug Still: [31:26] Right. Jean Zimmerman: [31:27] Doug, I'd love to know your idea as an arborist about the branching aspect of this tree. Doug Still: [31:32] Okay. Jean Zimmerman: [31:33] Is it extraordinary? Doug Still: [31:34] It seems to be very asymmetrical, which I think that you would find in a very old tree. It extends away from the fence line to the fence line. I saw another etching of this from the other side, which would be interesting to compare. It extends over - looks like Samuel Wyllys's land. And then there's some dieback. Jean Zimmerman: [31:59] Yeah, I see the deadwood. Doug Still: [32:01] And I see the branches kind of curving and moving. I've seen some 400-year-old white oaks, and that's what they do. So, I think it's pretty realistic, actually. The tree fell in 1856. It says this was taken from a pencil drawing from 1855. So, it most likely is pretty spot on. Then, we moved on to the relics of the Charter Oak and the memorabilia. There was a lot of it. So, we're looking at a display case full of the names of Charter Oak businesses and old photographs over the years. Jean Zimmerman: [32:43] What I said is there's nothing so low to have the Charter Oak name. [Doug laughs] Nothing so low or so high. It goes everything from Charter Oak Venetian Blinds [Doug laughs] to the Charter Oak First Prize Ribbon for Poultry 1921 at the state fair. Doug Still: [32:59] Yes. Charter Oak Coffee Roasting Company. Jean Zimmerman: [33:03] Charter Oak Trucking Company. Doug Still: [33:06] Soon, we learned about another important piece of Hartford history, that Samuel Colt, the firearms manufacturer, was a prominent figure at the same time the Charter Oak was lost in the 1856 storm. There's an entire room dedicated to Colt in the Connecticut State Museum. Their histories are intertwined. Jean Zimmerman: [33:25] This is what I've actually really wanted to see, which is the Colt revolver. That's a famous one. It's made out of wood. Doug Still: [33:33] Yeah, There's a whole room of Colt Firearms. Jean Zimmerman: [33:36] Oh, okay. And all made from wood, though. This one is carved from Charter Oakwood. It's a wood revolver which I guess makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen a wood revolver before. Doug Still: [33:49] That is a blending of Connecticut history right there. Jean Zimmerman: [33:53] Colt and Charter Oak. Doug Still: [33:57] And another cool find. Jean Zimmerman: [33:59] Here is a photograph of Charter Oak. Doug Still: [34:02] Incredible. I didn't realize that there was a photograph of it. Jean Zimmerman: [34:07] We don't have a date on this photo, but it also is framed in wood from the Charter Oak. So again, it's meta upon meta. Doug Still: [34:17] We can see an iron fence around it and the city growing around it that I can see. We were just getting started. Jack Hale, who you met briefly at the beginning of this episode, was kind enough to show us other Charter Oak sites in Hartford, and we learned so much from him. Okay, could you just maybe say your name so I have it? Jack Hale: [34:39] I'm Jack Hale. H-A-L-E. Doug Still: [34:42] Thanks. You've agreed to show us around Hartford a little bit and dig up some Charter Oak history and paintings and relics. Where are we right now? Jack Hale: [34:54] We're in the Wadsworth Atheneum Museum of Art. Doug Still: [34:58] I knew that because I walked in and just bought a ticket. [laughter] Jack Hale: [35:01] So, did I get it right? [laughter] Doug Still: [35:04] Yes, it's right. And what are you going to show us here? Jack Hale: [35:07] We're going to show you a couple of things that were made out of the wood of the Charter Oak after it fell, and also a painting of the Charter Oak. Doug Still: [35:20] He first told us a little bit of what happened after the tree fell in 1856. Jack Hale: [35:26] What happened? Doug Still: [35:28] Yeah, I mean, they were [Jack chuckles] crushed, I guess. Jack Hale: [35:31] Oh, yeah. It was a tragedy. Doug Still: [35:34] it's a [crosstalk]. It was in the newspaper. Jack Hale: [35:37] Well, they actually held a funeral for the tree, and Sam Colt, who by that time had made his way as a gun manufacturer, was obsessed with the tree. And so, he did everything he could to get as much of the wood from the tree as he could possibly get. Doug Still: [36:00] And who's Sam Colt? Jack Hale: [36:02] Sam Colt invented the revolver and he was an international arms dealer. Doug Still: [36:12] Yeah. He was based right here in Hartford. Jack Hale: [36:14] Right here, yes. Jean Zimmerman: [36:14] We actually saw one of those wood revolvers that he made in the State Library Museum, just now. Jack Hale: [36:21] Yeah, you can see evidence over there. Jean Zimmerman: [36:24] He was important enough by that time that what he said sort of went in terms of, "I'm going to collect all of this wood from the tree." Jack Hale: [36:33] Well, I don't know that influence is what was involved there. He was just one hustler guy. [Doug laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [36:40] Okay. Jack Hale: [36:41] If he decided he wanted something, he went after it. He was a businessman and a hustler, an entrepreneur. Doug Still: [36:50] Then, we went upstairs. Okay, what are we standing in front of, Jack? Jack Hale: [36:55] This is a famous painting of the Charter Oak. You can see it says here it was painted in 1857, which was right after it fell by Charles De Wolf Brownell. We're talking about Colt. Here's the top of the Colt Armory right here. Doug Still: [37:17] Jack pointed at the painting, and a guard came up. Jean Zimmerman: [37:19] Sorry, we were just-- Guard: [37:20] Get down. Jack Hale: [37:21] Oh, sorry. Guard: [37:22] Sorry. Don't touch the pictures. [laughter] Jack Hale: [37:26] And-- it's a frame. Doug Still: [37:28] It's a gorgeous frame. And the painting is lovely. Jean Zimmerman: [37:31] But you know, one thing, again, that I love about this is when something is made from the oak, and it depicts the oak like the frame here again, we have carvings of the Oak branches and leaves, and I think that's particularly beautiful. Jack Hale: [37:46] There is another painting which is perhaps even more historic than this one that was done by Frederick Edwin Church. It's at the Griswold Museum. Doug Still: [38:03] What else do you have to show us? Jack Hale: [38:03] That's the tree. Let's walk around the corner a little bit. Doug Still: [38:06] Okay. Jack Hale: [38:07] Now, this chair, I mean, you can read the label on there, but this chair was made for the Hartford City Council. They commissioned it, but they didn't want to pay the bill. So, Sam Colt bought it and it came here as part of the collection that was left to the Atheneum when Elizabeth died. Jean Zimmerman: [38:34] According to the description on the wall, this was actually carved in the same year the tree fell. This was 1857. Jack Hale: [38:44] Yeah. Doug Still: [38:45] And there's a small painting right next to it that's lovely by George Francis called Charter Oak and Willis House. This is circa 1858. So, it'd have been two years after the tree was gone by then. Jack Hale: [39:00] Yeah. Jean Zimmerman: [39:01] However, Willis was an earlier resident. It says here that he actually died in about 1645. At the time of the Oak, when all of the stuff transpired about the Oak, it was owned by someone named William Stewart. Jack Hale: [39:18] Very good. Jean Zimmerman: [39:19] And, it says that William Stewart allegedly had thousands of objects carved from its branches, from thimble cases to pianos. Doug Still: [39:27] We were far from the first tourists to take in all that is Charter Oak. Here's Mark Twain from 1868 after a trip to Hartford. Mark Twain: [39:37] Anything that is made of its wood is deeply venerated by the inhabitants and is regarded as very precious. I went all about the town with the citizen whose ancestors came over with the pilgrims in the Quaker City in the Mayflower, I should say. He showed me all the historic relics of Hartford. He showed me a beautifully carved chair in the Senate Chamber, where the bewigged and awfully homely old-time governors of the Commonwealth frown from the canvas overhead. "Made from Charter Oak," he said. I gazed upon it with inexpressible solicitude. He showed me another carved chair in the house. "Charter Oak," he said. I gazed again with interest. Then, we looked at the rusty, stained, and famous old charter and presently I turned to move away, but he solemnly drew me back and pointed to the frame. "Charter Oak," said he. I worshiped. We went down to Wadsworth's Atheneum and I wanted to look at the pictures, but he conveyed me silently to a corner and pointed to a log rudely shaped somewhat like a chair and whispered, "Charter Oak." I exhibited the accustomed reverence. He showed me a walking stick, a needle case, a dog collar, a three-legged stool, a bootjack, a dinner table, a ten-pin alley, a toothpick. I interrupted him and said, "Never mind, will bunch the whole lumber here and call it Charter Oak," he said. Well, I said, "Now, let us go and see some Charter Oak for a change." [chuckles] I meant that for a joke, but how was he to know that, being a stranger? He took me around and showed me Charter Oak enough to build a plank road from here to Great Salt Lake City. Doug Still: [41:44] We then left the museum, and Jack brought us a few blocks away to show us some living descendants of the Charter Oak. So, Jack, where are we now? Jack Hale: [41:54] We're in Bushnell Park in Downtown Hartford, the oldest municipally sponsored park in the United States. Doug Still: [42:01] Really? Jack Hale: [42:02] Yes. Doug Still: [42:03] And why are we here? Jack Hale: [42:04] It's got a couple of scions of the Charter Oak. We're standing in front of one of them. It's called the Hoadley Oak. Doug Still: [42:11] This is the Hoadley Oak that we're standing right next to? Jack Hale: [42:14] Yeah. The gate we just came through is the Hoadley Gate, and it's a memorial too. Jean Zimmerman: [42:26] Was the park built around this tree or was this tree planted after the park was put in? Jack Hale: [42:34] So. This park was built in 1857, so I don't know how long after that this oak was planted, but there it is. Doug Still: [42:50] Any idea how they took cuttings or acorns or how did they propagate the descendants of the Charter Oak? Jack Hale: [43:00] I know some of it was done with acorns, but there may also be some done with cuttings. Doug Still: [43:09] There might have been a nursery that was growing them nearby and they planted this from the nursery? Jack Hale: [43:15] Or just an interested person who decided to propagate the tree. Doug Still: [43:21] Bad timing. A tree crew was nearby, and the sound of chainsaws disrupted some of our conversations. The leaves of this white oak are still hanging on the tree. They're persistent. So, clearly, it's a white Oak. Jack Hale: [43:34] Yeah, pretty standard. Doug Still: [43:36] I'd say it's about 32 inches in diameter. I'm going to guess. Jack Hale: [43:45] I should have brought my D-TAPE with me. [laughter] Jean Zimmerman: [43:48] We just had the big storm, apparently one of the storms of the century a few days ago. So, they're still cleaning up. I can see a lot of branches on the ground, but it doesn't look as though this particular oak, this white oak, had suffered much damage. Jack Hale: [44:03] Well, it's got some deadwood in it, but it seems to be in pretty good shape. Doug Still: [44:08] Where are you taking us to next? Jack Hale: [44:10] We're going to take you to the big one. Doug Still: [44:13] Next, Jack brought us to an even bigger descendant of the Charter Oak, a 50-inch diameter white oak that didn't have a name. It was in perfect condition and well cared for. Jack told us about a tree map of all the known scions, which is available online from a website called Connecticut's Notable Trees, which is sponsored by the Connecticut Botanical Society, the Connecticut College Arboretum, and the Connecticut Urban Forest Council. We then got into a discussion about how these descendants were propagated. I guessed acorns germinated at a nursery and grown into saplings. But Jean met with Christopher Martin from the State's Department of Energy and Environmental Protection to get his perspective. Jean Zimmerman: [44:56] So, first of all, let's start out, just tell me, just for the record, your name, your title, and what you do. Christopher Martin: [45:05] Sure. I'm Chris Martin. I'm the state forester for Connecticut. That's a dual role. I'm also the director of the Forestry Division within our Bureau of Natural Resources. The bureau covers the fish and wildlife of Connecticut, the marine fisheries, and then within different divisions. And then, a division of forestry that we really focus on the trees and forests of Connecticut and the different ownerships, the private lands, the water company lands, the state lands. We do Smokey Bear and forest protection and firefighting and then urban forestry work also. Jean Zimmerman: [45:48] Okay. Are you a long-time Connecticut person? Christopher Martin: [45:52] I was born in Southwestern Connecticut, yeah. Grew up in Beacon Falls, New Haven County. Jean Zimmerman: [45:57] Okay, let's just dive right in. When you were growing up, did you know about the story of Charter Oak? Christopher Martin: [46:06] Umm, I didn't. I knew the nickname for Connecticut was the Charter Oak Staters A State Tree. I was heavily involved in Boy Scouts, so I've always enjoyed the outdoors and camping. So, hearing about Charter Oak on and off, yeah, I acknowledged it, but I didn't really understand it. Of course, in my position, I've become more familiar with it. But the original Charter Oak was this huge monster white oak tree well over 400 years. And this is like colonial times when the Europeans first came over and the indigenous populations recognized this tree that overlooked the Connecticut River, really in an outstanding location, as an area of gathering. The indigenous folks approached a new landowner, it was sold. The property was sold with the tree, and they pleaded with the landowner not to cut it down, let it grow, really important to them, and he agreed to that. Jean Zimmerman: [47:13] Let's just jump ahead then, in terms of passing along the stories and the importance of the seedlings and the acorns. What I've heard is that the acorns were gathered at the time the storm blew the tree down. Is that what happened? And who gathered? Was it Samuel Colt or how did that happen? Christopher Martin: [47:34] Yeah, I've heard the same, that acorns were gathered. The acorns themselves were distributed. The one that we are the most assured is a descendant in Bushnell Park in Hartford, a descendant of the Charter Oak. So, over time, when the agency, the state of Connecticut, wanted to propagate more Charter Oak trees, they would collect the acorns from underneath this one tree in Bushnell Park. Jean Zimmerman: [48:03] So, that is the tree we visited the other day. They have a plaque underneath that says the scion, right? And so, that tree was planted-- Let me look at my note. I don't have it down, but that tree was planted in 1868 or something like that, right? Christopher Martin: [48:19] It's [unintelligible]. Jean Zimmerman: [48:22] Right. So, the other scions are from the acorns, from that particular oak? Christopher Martin: [48:28] The trees that the state of Connecticut distributed in ‘60s and the ‘70s were from that oak in Bushnell Park. Jean Zimmerman: [48:38] Okay. Was there something that happened in the ‘60s or ‘70s that precipitated that interest in distributing the seedlings? Christopher Martin: [48:46] I'm not sure about it was ‘60s, the ‘70s, 1976, it was kind of a bicentennial-- part of our national Bicentennial celebration. So, there was a concerted effort to give as many people as wanted-- the towns that wanted a descendant of the Charter Oak tree. Jean Zimmerman: [49:05] And were those acorns distributed, or is there a nursery in Connecticut, like a state nursery, where the seedlings were propagated? Christopher Martin: [49:16] At the time, there were a couple of different nurseries, one in Griswold and then in the Windsor area that the acorns were planted and germinated and cared for into a small sapling stage. Those facilities no longer serve that purpose. Jean Zimmerman: [49:34] Good to know. I wonder what they did way back when they first propagated those trees from the first acorn crop from the original tree [crosstalk] Christopher Martin: [49:43] They probably just stuck them in the soil and put a fence around that keeps the deer or other animals from eating them. [laughs] Jean Zimmerman: [49:49] Yeah, right. And grew a few trees. Doug Still: [49:52] Jean spoke to several people around the state about Charter Oak including Allan Fenner, a consulting arborist. He had a story about a piece of the Charter Oak showing up after one of his jobs. Jean Zimmerman: [50:03] So, now tell me the story about the Charter Oak, the piece of the oak that you said your client gave to you. How did that come about? Allan Fenner: [50:13] Well, I was doing kind of a tree-related job for a client after Storm Sandy. It was someone who had called me. She couldn't get a hold of anyone to do any kind of work, and there were portions of trees all down on her property. So, I came out there to help and take care of her. My two sons and I went out there and we took care of the property. After we were finished, she presented me with a piece of oak and said-- the woman was about 80 years old, and she said it was given to her by her grandfather and was supposedly related to a portion of the tree of the Charter Oak. It was a small, about three inch by two-inch thick piece of definitely oak. Definitely white Oak. Right now, I have it on my desk, and it serves the purpose of holding down paper very well. Jean Zimmerman: [51:20] [laughs] As it should. Okay. Doug Still: [51:22] Robb Storm also had his own story about a piece of the Charter Oak. You mentioned that there was a relic of the Charter Oak in your family. Robert Storm: [51:32] There was probably. My three great grandfathers obtained a large, round section thick from-- I would guess not the trunk itself, but one of the lower branches. That was proudly displayed in the front parlor of my mother's family home, which had been in the family for generations in Vernon Center. Unfortunately, my mother's parents fell on hard times with the Depression. So, they opened what they called the Early Dawn Inn. Big rambling, old late colonial farmhouse with only two children. So, there were plenty of rooms to let out tourists, especially during the leaf-peeping period, the autumn, which, as is gorgeous here in New England. Doug Still: [52:24] Oh, absolutely. Robert Storm: [52:26] Unfortunately, one morning after the guests had left, they found that this big, round section had left also. Very sad, and it is still bemoaned when members of the family get together. Jean Zimmerman: [52:45] The Charter Oak isn't the only important oak out there, okay? There are a lot of oaks historically that matter a lot to people. One of them is the Treaty Oak in Austin. Supposedly, a spurned lover poisoned a live oak there in 1989. But that tree supposedly stood since before Columbus, Comanches hammered out agreements there, and it still stands downtown behind a chain link fence, and it's treasured by the public. By the way, you can buy seedlings for that tree if you want to plant one in your own yard for $79.95. Also, there's a tree called the Major Oak in England that also had a hole, and supposedly that was a hideout for Robin Hood and his Merry Band. They say that it's almost a thousand years old. We often think that oaks are important for various reasons, and you can find other really famous ones around. Am I the first person that's approached you about this story recently, or do you get any other interest in it? Christopher Martin: [53:56] Periodically, there's an interest. The Hartford Courant ran an interest story on it a few years ago. When you talk about Connecticut history or anyone that wants to delve into Connecticut's history and do write an article about Connecticut, it's hard to skip the importance of the Charter Oak and how it's our signature to many folks when they think of Connecticut, they think of the Nutmeg State, the Constitution State, and, "Oh, yeah, that famous Charter Oak." So, it kind of goes hand in hand when you're reflecting back on Connecticut's history. Jean Zimmerman: [54:29] As a forester, what's your feeling about the white oak? Is that a tree that you like particularly, or is it significant that this was a white oak? Allan Fenner: [54:41] That's a great question, and I have a lot of admiration for white oak trees. They are strong, sturdy, long lived. They can grow in a variety of habitats. They can be used for a variety of purposes. The mast, the acorns themselves are incredibly valuable for wildlife, a variety of wildlife species, and even insects and butterflies. These are areas that we're managing the forest for wildlife habitat, or we're cleaning up after a storm, and we really hate to waste wood. So, we'll turn it into a usable, durable product. Doug Still: [55:19] Near the completion of this story, Jean and I received some difficult news from Jack. The Hoadley Oak, the descendant of the Charter Oak, which the three of us visited, is one of five trees in Bushnell Park that were subject to extensive analysis because they appeared to be declining. The result of the study is that this historic oak is now scheduled for removal because it was determined to be high risk, essentially due to a column of decay deep within its trunk. The assessment was conducted by an outside consultant. But the removal decision has been challenged by citizens, and there will be an upcoming hearing that is yet to be scheduled. Back to our guests, we asked each of them to tell us why they thought the legend of the Charter Oak is important. Christopher Martin: [56:04] I believe the reason is trees can tie us to our past and make us remember more vividly or get a picture in our mind of what actually happened. I think it's a great way to teach younger kids about history and the fact that it's a tree that they can easily relate to. Allan Fenner: [56:30] Well, I think it's appropriate that the Charter Oak, being a white oak, and then the official state tree of Connecticut is the white oak, Quercus alba. I think it reflects well on Connecticut's citizenry and our governance and where we are in the world. It's a nice reflection. So, I don't know, it's just it's a good fit for Connecticut. Robert Storm: [56:57] I think it's more symbolic than anything. A legendary wood, sturdy, long lasting. The mighty oaks of England are legendary. It's the heartiness, the solidity of oak that means a great deal. The beauty of this particular tree was unusual too. It hadn't the form of a typical oak tree. You've seen, of course, the paintings. In 1935, it appeared on the tercentenary stamps for the existence of the colony. It was the emblem of the colony. But in addition, it had that reputation of being a sign of peace, an emblem of peace as well as solidity. On its high hill overlooking the capital city of Connecticut, it had almost the quality of a guardian of the entire population of the state. So, it was looked upon almost as a nonhuman ancestor, I think, for all of us who live here in Connecticut. Doug Still: [58:03] Well, Jean, I'd say if the legend of the Charter Oak has survived in Connecticut for 340 years, it isn't going anywhere. Jean Zimmerman: [58:10] I'd say so. Doug Still: [58:12] I really noticed that people would light up whenever we asked them about it, and they would talk about it. Jean Zimmerman: [58:17] Yeah, that seems true of everybody that we spoke with. Doug Still: [58:20] Even if the Hoadley Oak is lost, I think this legend will live on. Jean Zimmerman: [58:26] Right. It makes you ask though about the meaning of a hollow in a tree. It used to be something of such value and something so important was hidden in it. Now, we're actually kind of risk-averse and we're worried that a tree with a cavity is somehow dangerous. Times sure have changed. Doug Still: [58:44] Yeah, there's an irony in that. This story wouldn't have existed without the hollow in Charter Oak. Jean Zimmerman: [58:50] Absolutely. Douglas Still: [58:51] What do you find most remarkable about this story? Jean Zimmerman: [58:54] Well, to me, one thing that's amazing is just that a tree is still cherished by so many folks and in our highly advanced techie society that a tree, something so natural, is still recognized as being really important. Doug Still: [59:12] Well, we met some wonderful people, didn't we? Jean Zimmerman: [59:15] We did. Doug Still: [59:15] Thank you so much for researching and investigating this story with me. It's been a great pleasure. Jean Zimmerman: [59:22] It's been fun working with you, Doug. Doug Still: [59:24] You've been listening to This Old Tree, and I'm Doug Still. Thanks again to Jean Zimmerman, Robert Storm, Jack Hale, Chris Martin, and Allan Fenner for appearing on the show today. You all really helped bring the story alive. Thanks to Robb Barnard for a fantastic Mark Twain. And thank you tree lovers for listening. Visit the website thisoldtree.show for more guest information, show notes, photos, and if you're interested in supporting the show through Patreon, I'll see you next time. [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Harlem's Tree of Hope (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 8 Published January 13, 2023 Doug Still: Picture this. We're in Harlem in New York City, and it's the 1920's. [music] There's a cultural awakening going on. There’s jazz and dance, theater and literature, big celebrities and lots of new talent looking for a break. And of course, because this is a show about trees, there is a tree that somehow fits into all of this, a symbol of the Harlem Renaissance. It’s the Tree of Hope, and it was a good luck charm to black performers looking to make the big time. Garden historian and storyteller, Abra Lee, is here to tell the story of this particular tree's rise to fame, its demise, and its enduring legacy. That's all coming up. I'm Doug Still, and welcome to This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: A long time ago, a mature elm tree stood on the east side of 7th Avenue between 131st and 132nd Streets in New York City, although 7th Avenue is now known as Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. Boulevard. It was an American elm tree, that is clear to me from photos of the 1920s, but it is long gone. [traffic sounds] Gone, too, is any trace of the Roaring '20s. Go to the spot now, and you'll see a sleek new apartment building that spans the entire block. Clean, modern, and bland. There are three new little leaf linden trees planted there, hoping to thrive, but otherwise there's not much to draw your eye. The Williams Institutional Christian Methodist Episcopal Church occupies one of the double doors, hardly noticeable, but a presence since the 1950s. But take a time machine back 100 years, and this block was Thriving with a capital T. This was along the Boulevard of Dreams, full of nightclubs and theaters, and dance halls. 7th Avenue and 131st Street was known to some as The Corner, with Connie's Inn and other clubs. Another one nearby was the Hoofers Club, a hangout for top jazz performers and tap dancers. And the biggest and most famous venue of the day was the Lafayette Theatre, with its huge marquee lighting up the night and renowned productions that brought in droves of people from all over the city. Our Tree of Hope stood next to the Lafayette Theatre and is most associated with it, as we'll find out later. [music] It was the height of the Harlem Renaissance, which was, as Professor Cheryl Wall put it, a time when black people redefined themselves and announced themselves into modernity. It was an intellectual and cultural awakening that found its center in Harlem but stretched to other cities around the country like Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D. C., and also to Paris, Berlin, and London. The backdrop was the Great Migration, which was the mass movement of southern rural blacks to northern cities to seek better wages and living conditions and to escape life-threatening mob violence. It was a fresh start in a time of great optimism and the artistic legacy, jazz, dance, fashion, literature, and drama, was a gift to the world. But back to our block on 7th Avenue, what was the Tree of Hope and what did it have to do with all of this? I'd like to introduce you to my new friend, Abra Lee. Abra is a garden historian, storyteller, horticulturist, and former city parks arborist based in Georgia. Her degree in ornamental horticulture is from Auburn University, and she's also an alumna of the prestigious Longwood Gardens Fellows Program, which she completed in 2020. Recently, Abra has worked as a freelance horticultural writer and lecturer. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Fine Gardening, Veranda Magazine, and NPR. Her first book, Conquer the Soil: Black America and the Untold Stories of Our Country's Gardeners, Farmers, and Growers is due out in 2025. Her work seeks to tell love stories about the folklore, history, and art of horticulture. Abra, welcome to the show. Abra Lee: Thank you, Doug. I am happy to be here with you today. Happy 2023. It is so early in the year. First week of the year. Doug Still: Yes. Happy New Year to you too. And I think that I told you in one of our previous conversations that I was also-- Well, I also applied to the Longwood Fellows Program at Longwood Garden way back when. [laughs] Abra Lee: Oh, wow. Doug Still: The early 90s. Abra Lee: Yeah. Doug Still: I went through a grueling three-day interview process, and I did not get in. So, congratulations to you. [laughs] Abra Lee: Thank you. And I will say the process still feels grueling. What's interesting about that is that it may be self-formed by us, the interviewees, because the people at Longwood are wonderful, but it feels intense when you're up there. It really does. Doug Still: Yeah. And Longwood Gardens is so beautiful. It's in the Brandywine Valley in southeastern Pennsylvania. But we're here to talk about the Tree of Hope at your suggestion. I was wondering if you could set the scene for this story. Where was it located and how did the story first come about? Abra Lee: The Tree of Hope was located on 7th Avenue and 131st Street in Harlem. And some people would say 7th Avenue and 132nd Street in Harlem. It is a tree that people gathered under. When I say people, I mean specifically the black community in Harlem. So, at the prime of the Tree of Hope, it is the Roaring 20s, the Harlem Renaissance is happening, black businesses are thriving, black communities are thriving. This is in the era of the early 1900. The post-Reconstruction era of America had occurred in the early 1900s and black people, black communities, many had migrated from the south to the north. So, they're going to New York, places like Harlem, in hopes of seeking a better life. Doug Still: Yeah. I know that it could fill an entire course or encyclopedia about what the Harlem Renaissance was about and everything that happened. But how would you describe it? How is it important to American culture? Abra Lee: The Harlem Renaissance was the part or maybe certainly the first time in America where the illumination of black art, black culture, black literature is "mainstream." It is validated by people outside of the black community as black culture in America being something hyper specific and special to itself. So, these people who are descendants of the formerly enslaved have not only come to America, their ancestors, through way of bondage, they have been stripped of everything they knew throughout the diaspora and recreated their own sound, their own style, their own music, their own art, their own way of acting. Jazz is verbed from this. So, that is what the Harlem Renaissance means. It puts, honestly, America on the map as an artistic contributor to the globe is what it does. Doug Still: Right. And as you were saying, people were migrating from the south to the north and had this area of New York City that became their own. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: There was this flowering of theater in writing and music. Abra Lee: And ideas in community and fashion and business and economics. The Tree of Hope didn't start off being called the Tree of Hope. This is where it gets fun. The Tree of Hope is like any other legend. It's bigger than itself, and it has many iterations and many names. Some people, the old timers, a Harlem native or necessarily, maybe not necessarily a native, but a person who is a part of the Harlem community, they call them Harlemites, many of them said that the Tree of Hope started off being called the Tree of Wisdom or the Tree of Knowledge. It was no different than when you saw people gather in these open-air spaces outside of Europe and have their symposiums and discuss the economy, discuss politics, discuss gossip. And with that, people were able to exchange messages. It was the message board, it was the internet, it was the chatroom, it was the everything for Harlem. Doug Still: What in particular went on this block on 7th Avenue between 131st and 132nd Street? What was it known for? Abra Lee: It was known most famously for the Lafayette Theatre being diagonal to that tree. The Lafayette Theatre was Black Hollywood at the time. It is where the successful performers were doing their acts and their stage shows, whether it was comedy, whether it was music, whether it was theatrical. Or it was a place where hopeful actors who were seeking to be the next person of fame and fortune would stand in front of this tree. What was so significant is that if you were a Broadway manager or a producer, you could walk right outside of that theater and in a moment's notice, grab whatever type of performer that you needed to fill in at the Lafayette Theatre. And that is when it starts becoming the Tree of Hope. I do want to tell you a name that is credited to naming it the Tree of Hope. Of course, there's many iterations. I can't validate this. But the person credited to naming the Tree of Hope, is a person named Lee Whipper. Lee Whipper, I don't know much about their story, but the legend goes that there were some performers who were unable to get paid for their work, and they were gathering under this tree just like anyone else, stage performers. Doug Still: It was probably hot, it was probably summer. Abra Lee: Of course. Doug Still: I'm looking at the old photos, and it's the only [chuckles] tree on the block that I can see. Abra Lee: It's the only tree. Doug Still: So, naturally, they would be underneath the tree. Abra Lee: They would be underneath the tree. What they did is that one of them rub the tree and pretty much prayed that they would get their money, they would get paid for the work they had done. They had done the work, but they hadn't gotten paid. And lo and behold, a few days later, they got their money. And so, word gets out that this tree has magical powers. They said that people have more faith in that tree than they even had in themselves. And that is when it becomes the Tree of Hope. And you're right, there weren't other trees on that street to gather under. It was truly a gathering spot. Doug Still: So, what I read was that it wasn't just during the day, but people gathered underneath the tree all night long. It was like a meeting place. Probably, performances were going on even afterwards at the Lafayette Theatre and people were there on into the night. Abra Lee: Yes. They said that the talk was fast and free up under that tree. [crosstalk] The conversation was fast and free. If you were a gossip columnist, you could get more information from a two-minute conversation under that tree than you could get from a three-column written out of the paper. So, that is what the Tree of Hope was. We're not talking about 10 people, 15 people, 20. We're talking about hundreds, even thousands of people at a time gathered under the street. It sounds like, "Oh, Abra, you're telling us tall tales." Well, guess what, y'all? There are pictures that validate this and show thousands of people on the block lingering, socializing, and meeting, having community, having church up under The Tree of Hope. And so, it was a friend of the community, it was a neighbor, it was everything to Harlem. [music] Doug Still: Next up, I talked more with Abra Lee about the performance venues on the block, some of the famous performers there, and the eventual loss of the Tree of Hope, and what happened. You're listening to This Old Tree. So, I'm looking at one of or I looked at one of the old photos, and the tree wasn't actually directly in front of the Lafayette Theatre. It was right next door. And the establishment, there was Connie's Inn. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: Have you heard of Connie's Inn, or do you know what Connie's Inn was? Abra Lee: Yes, I have Connie's name. The last name is a B. I believe he's a gentleman. And Connie owned it in there. And this was also a person who was a mover and shaker. I think they even call Connie a wheeler and dealer from Harlem. Doug Still: I looked it up. This was Prohibition, and Connie's Inn was a speakeasy. It was established by Connie Immerman and his brothers who emigrated from Latvia. It was a nightclub in the basement that featured acts like Louis Armstrong, Fats Waller, Wilbur Sweatman, and Fletcher Henderson. Like the Cotton Club over on 142nd street, the audience was for whites only. In 1934, it vacated and moved downtown, and the Ubangi Club moved into the spot. The Ubangi Club featured black, cross-dressing, gay, and lesbian performers like Gladys Bentley. There was a lot going on. At Lafayette Theatre, there was Connie's Inn, there's another one called The Hoofers Club. So, all of these establishments had performers, and people would meet under this tree, and probably take jobs in different places. Abra Lee: Yes, absolutely. This is the thing. People would go there to seek a job. But people who had a job, the performers who were successful and already employed in theater knew to pay their respects to that tree. So, where they may not kiss the tree or pray to it, they would certainly touch the tree. This was a tree that people felt superstition about. They really felt that you are going to pay homage to this tree if you want your success to continue. I'm saying that because there was a spiritual connection to this tree in the community. If we think back of the people that are under this tree, that community has built the ancestors that would coincide with their beliefs about nature and the power that it does have. So, it was beyond important. It was family. It was family. Doug Still: Its fame was most intertwined with the Lafayette Theatre. If the Harlem Renaissance mainstreamed the illumination of black culture, as Abra explained, the Lafayette was an early beacon. It was the first major theater to desegregate in 1913 allowing African American theatre goers to sit in the orchestra alongside their white counterparts. The Lafayette staged Broadway hits such as Madame X, and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The musical revue that became known as Darktown Follies popularized two dances, Ballin' the Jack and also the Texas Tommy, which grew into the Lindy Hop. Duke Ellington made his New York debut here. The Lafayette players were the resident stock company, and they performed new plays in classics before almost exclusively African American audiences. Abra Lee: The Lafayette Theatre was known for having the biggest, greatest performers of the day. So, people like the great singer and orator, Paul Robeson, people like Ethel Waters, the famous entertainer, tap dancer, performer, people like Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, who was considered or is considered the greatest tap dancer ever. This is what the Lafayette Theatre produced. And these are names that you and I may recognize today from days of old. There are names beyond their names that may not ring a bell today better, even more legendary to those people. The Lafayette Theatre was Hollywood. It was Hollywood for the black community. It was where you went to change your life, to change your generational wealth. To change your economic status, it was that important. Doug Still: My understanding is, it was a combination of shows from Broadway from downtown, but it was also original shows or plays written by African American playwrights and writers as well. Abra Lee: It was. It was a Black Broadway. It wasn't just Broadway shows, it was comedy shows, it was opera shows, it was theatrical shows. Any type of show that you-- I think you just said vaudeville, that you can relate to entertainment. That is what happened at the Lafayette Theatre. It was something that was known coast to coast in the black community. You got to think this is a time in Harlem where Langston Hughes is roaming the streets. Zora Neale Hurston, the incredible writer, a great friend of Langston Hughes, is roaming the streets. Countee Cullen, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, I mean, the names go on and on. This is when The Tree of Hope is at its prime. So, every name that you can think about, Louis Armstrong, Josephine Baker, that is what is attached to this tree. Doug Still: One name that you mentioned was Ethel Waters. Could you tell me about Ethel Waters and who she was? Abra Lee: Ethel Waters was of her time-- and I am no entertainment historian, but I certainly do know a little bit about her career. If you think of the most famous black Hollywood actresses now, people like-- Think of Octavia Spencer, because I'm an Auburn graduate. You think of other black actresses who have succeeded. I don't know why my mind is blanking, y'all. I'm a horticulturist and I'm sitting here thinking, "I can see a hundred black actresses in front of my face and I'm naming none." [laughter] Doug Still: They were the celebrities of the time. Abra Lee: Yes, they were the celebrities of the time. That is what Ethel Waters was. She had the fame, she had the fortune, she had the following, she had the gossip callers following her, the paparazzi, all of that. That is what Ethel Waters was. She was one of the most famous people in America. [Ethel Waters singing “Dinah”] Doug Still: So, this was before the Apollo Theater. Abra Lee: Right. The Lafayette Theatre precedes the Apollo Theater. What happens is the 1930s come along, and what we know is that is when the Great Depression starts. At the end of the 1920s, and people really were holding out hope that things would turn around, things would change, but unfortunately, that was not the case. The felling, when the Tree of Hope is removed- Doug Still: This was 1934. Abra Lee: -it is considered the beginning of the end of that era in Harlem. And people said, "Harlem was never the same." Doug Still: Now, I understand that the Tree of Hope was removed, because they did a street widening project. The city came in and widened 7th Avenue and had to remove the tree. And so, it was the automobile. This happened everywhere. This happened all throughout New York City. I'm in Providence now. There's one major boulevard called Elmwood Avenue that had a double allee of American elm trees. And in the 1930s, to make room for commuters to drive in and out of the downtown, they widened the street and removed-- There was a big outcry. It was in the newspaper. So, this is not unusual. With the automobile, we lost a lot of tree canopy, unfortunately. Abra Lee: The way that it was reported in the Harlem papers and in the black newspapers around the country, because this was national news. In our community this was the crash heard around the world. It wasn't a stock market crash. It was this tree crash that was heard. Doug Still: [laughs] Abra Lee: The reporters stated that cars had become more important than pedestrians. And so, the city came in, and cut down this tree, and people could not believe what was happening. They said that there was much weeping, there was much wailing, and if you've ever been to a good old-fashioned funeral at a black church or a Baptist church or a country church, you know what that's about. There were trumpeters who brought out their trumpets and started playing the St. Louis Blues- Doug Still: Wow. Abra Lee: -in a slow sound. So, there was a real-- [crosstalk] Doug Still: It was very upsetting. Abra Lee: Oh, my gosh, yes. So upsetting to the point when the Parks Department came through that the people who were witnessing this-- a crowd starts to gather. There's already hundreds of people there daily, but more and more people gather, and someone has the wherewithal to say, "Let me go get my saw, let me go get my axe, let me go get my hatchet, and I am going to start cutting up pieces of the tree." And they started selling the pieces of the tree on the spot. Doug Still: Right. They kept it and they handed it out, and some people sold it. I don't know how they were able to sell it. Abra Lee: It's the Tree of Hope and I got the saw. Doug, you don't have a saw and you want this big chunk, you can't just walk off with it for free. How are you going to get it to your house? And it is the 1930s. There's hustle in there too now. These are business folks. Doug Still: Right. Abra Lee: So, yes. There were people who bought portions of the tree. There were people who grabbed portions of the tree. They say, "Look, if you didn't have any money, you were picking up the sawdust off the street and putting it in your pocket for this tree." People were taking roots off of this tree and that was how important it was to them. And it was so important that once the tree was completely felled and gone, there were people in Harlem that avoided that area altogether moving forward. They didn't want any part of it, because they believed it to be a bad omen when that tree was removed. Doug Still: Here's the title from a New York Times article about it from August 21st, 1934. WISHING TREE'S END SADDENS HARLEM; ' Charmed Circle' Where Noted Stage Folk Prayed for Jobs Is Bereft of Fetish. WOOD CUT FOR SOUVENIRS 400 Watch in Gloom as Source of Old Superstition Falls in Widening of 7th Avenue. Abra then brought out an article of her own from her files. Abra Lee: It's so interesting. I love these headlines. I don't know if you've seen this one. It says, "It was murder, Jack. " People were serious about it. That was a first-person account of the tree being felled. Doug Still: Oh, wow. Abra Lee: You can see the people sawing. I don't know if you can see that. You can see the folks sawing the tree up. Doug Still: Wow. Abra Lee: You can see, "It was murder, Jack-" Doug Still: Where did you find that? Abra Lee: So, that's the thing. You mentioned it was written in the New York Times. This was in the Amsterdam News, which was a black paper. The Times was the Times, but this was the news to them. Doug Still: So, pieces of the tree are being sold, taken away as souvenirs. I'd like to get to one in particular. There was a piece of that tree taken by or purchased by, perhaps, Ralph Cooper, Sr. Abra Lee: That's correct. And knowing his influence, knowing who he was and his relationship as an entertainer, as a famed person of that community. Doug Still: Well, who was Ralph Cooper, Sr.? Abra Lee: Ralph Cooper was a performer. He was an MC. He was a man about town. He was a very handsome black man. He was the Clark Gable. Gone with the Wind was popular at the time, and he was considered dark Gable, which I think is hilarious, because he's a black guy. He's just this dashing, charming, beloved member of the entertainment community. And knowing who he was, his relationship to the Lafayette Theatre, being a performer there, having a great business relationship, I highly doubt he paid for his hunk of the tree. But the way legend has it is that he had a portion of this tree when the tree was cut and had a stagehand mounted stage left at the Apollo theater. Doug Still: So, the Apollo just opened. Abra Lee: Yes. Doug Still: The Apollo Theater on 125th Street had actually opened in the early 1920s, but it became a venue for black performers and patrons in 1934, becoming more like what we know it is today. Abra Lee: But the Apollo had been known for its amateur nights. When you're at the Lafayette and you're a professional at this point or you're trying to become a famous professional, Apollo is amateur night and that is what it is known for, even to this day. They still have some amateur nights at the Apollo. Maybe not like the Heyday, but they're still there. And Ralph Cooper was the MC, ABC, which was a new broadcasting company in America at the time had gone to the Apollo in November of 1934 to live broadcast nationally, the amateur night. And on that night, Ralph Cooper, and perhaps before, maybe not specifically on that night, he had someone mount a portion of the Tree of Hope on the stage. And the intent was that you needed to touch this tree. This tree was a part of the community, and you needed it to hope that you weren't going to get booed off the stage. Because at the Apollo during the amateur night, your success and your failure is judged by the audience. They have a gentleman called the Sandman that would come out with a hook and pull you off the stage if you were booed. Doug Still: [laughs] Abra Lee: At one point, they would shoot you off the stage. Not literal bullets, but blanks, and the audience would react to that, these blank guns, and they go pow, pow, pow, and shoot you off. But if you weren't booed off the stage and the audience was roaring and excited about you, it could change your life and that was what Ralph Cooper brought. He brought the national fame and national attention through radio, honestly, what we're doing now, and that is what I feel like illuminated the Tree of Hope into infamy, to be honest. Doug Still: So, he took a slice of that tree. It was about a foot tall and about 18 inches in diameter, and he had a stagehand take it, shellac it, and apparently put it on a gold pedestal. Abra Lee: That's right. And mount it. That's right. Doug Still: It's right on stage. Abra Lee: To this day. Doug Still: It's been on stage until this day. Abra Lee: Since 1934, it has been on that stage. It has. If anyone who goes on the stage of the Apollo-- I can tell you, I have watched many an amateur night on Showtime at the Apollo when I was growing up. If you walk past the stump and don't touch it, they won't even let you walk up to the mic without touching that tree stump. Doug Still: Yeah. You can't let them go on without touching the Tree of Hope. Abra Lee: No. And if you don't, you honestly start off on the wrong foot, the audience. You really do. So, it is that important. I mean, we're talking almost 100 years now. Doug Still: So, does every performer touch the Tree of Hope before they go on stage, obviously, an amateur night, but the professionals too? Would Stevie Wonder--? Abra Lee: Absolutely. Gladys Knight, Beyoncé. There's not a professional black performer, entertainer who has performed at the Apollo, no matter how great Michael Jackson brand you are, you have touched that tree. I don't think we know their name anymore. Doug Still: So, the Tree of Hope, when it was on 7th Avenue, it was along the curb and it got removed, but the stump of it was moved to the median, the new median, and there was a plaque. Bill "Bojangles" Robinson was responsible for doing that. And he got the mayor. Mayor La Guardia came out and they were a big ceremony. Could you tell me who Bill Robinson was? Abra Lee: Yes. Bill Robinson was probably the most famous living performer. We just said our name today is Beyoncé. And in his day, he was that. He was the most famous performer there, not just in the black community, famous worldwide. Bill Robinson: [singing] Make 'em play that crazy thing again I've got to do that lazy swing again Hi-ho, doin' the new lowdown! Got my feet to misbehaving now Got a soul that's not for saving now Hi-ho, doin' the new lowdown! Abra Lee: This was a person who had the respect of the Rockefellers, Fiorello-- If I'm saying is incorrect, Mayor La Guardia. So, when the tree was removed and there is an obituary in the paper and there are poems written, and as I said, there is a whole procession to mourn this tree. People are wiring in their condolences. Bill Robinson goes to City Hall, he goes to the mayor and says, "Long story short, what have you done here? You have destroyed this community. And guess what? You got an election in November, don't you?" So, it was no coincidence that two days before the November election, Mayor Fiorello, Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, who wasn't just only one of the most famous entertainment world, he's also considered the Mayor of Harlem, the Commissioner of the Park Department that cut the tree down, shows up other mayors of other boroughs, or people who are considered "mayors" show up on that day, and a big hunk of that tree is replanted in the middle of the median, the island in that street. Doug Still: From what I can tell, there was a piece of the stump and then there's also a new tree planted, a new Tree of Hope. Abra Lee: There was a new Tree of Hope, and then it was replanted in another location in 1941. So, what we're referencing now, you and I, is the Tree of Hope is brought down in late August of 1934. And two days before the November election of 1934, the New York election, the stump is replanted. It is a big deal. There's a beautiful picture that shows thousands, at least 3,000 people show up for this replanting of the stump. This is in the middle of the Great Depression. So, this is how important this tree is, and this is how powerful Bill "Bojangles" Robinson is that he is able to throw out the bat signal and say, "Y'all need to get y'all's tails down here and right this wrong that you have done in this community." Doug Still: I'd like to read what it says on the plaque. So, the plaque says, "The original Tree of Hope beloved by the people of Harlem. ‘You asked for a Tree of Hope. So, here it is.’ Best wishes, Bill Robinson.” Abra Lee: To give context to your audience, Doug, the old timers at the time, the trees cut down people, and by people, I mean the reporters, the gossip columnists, the folks that lingered on the street and did their daily [unintelligible [00:32:03] to what they consider the old timers, the oldest people they could find in Harlem, the 100-year-olds and said, "Hey, how long has this tree been here?” They could never settle on a day, but some people who were of a certain age of that time remembered that tree being there since 1875. So, we're talking 1934. So, they knew it had been there at least for 50 years at that point. So, that is the level of meaning that this tree had to the community where the old timers of white one. I was a child. It was there. So, it was so sad when it happened. It really was. [music] Doug Still: You are listening to This Old Tree. I've got more of garden historian, Abra Lee, who gets into the true meaning behind Harlem's Tree of Hope in just a minute. The tree became a player in the arts folklore side of the Harlem Renaissance, which obviously was so much more. But are there works of art or literature since then that the tree itself has inspired? Abra Lee: Yes, there was a Broadway play that was written about the tree. I think it was called the Wishing Tree. And I'm not saying that it was on major Broadway. It was probably on the black Broadway. Meaning, in Harlem that it was shown. And then, we get to the 1960s and the 1970s, this tree is still not forgotten. And there are artists that come along, like one of the fathers of Afrofuturism, Algernon Miller, to create a beautiful steel sculpture that is an abstract sculpture that honors the Tree of Hope and honors this legacy in Harlem, so that it is not forgotten to this day. There was also a time, it was either the late 1960s or early 1970s, there was a ball that was in honor of Cab Callaway, and the person with the best costume would win this trip on Eastern Airlines. The airline is defunct now, but was the big deal of their time, the Delta of their time, the British Airways of their time. And the person came dressed as a Tree of Hope and had the pictures of Ethel Waters and of Cab Callaway and of Bill "Bojangles" Robinson attached to their outfit, and they won this top prize at that ball. They say legends never die. There's someone in Harlem today, ain't just someone, many someone that can tell you, if there's top five most famous things out of Harlem, this tree is the Harlem Renaissance. I mean, it is that important. Doug Still: Why do you think a tree drew the attention of these performers and their fans as a repository for their particular hopes and dreams? It very well could have been a wall, or a stone, or a door handle or something, but why do they connect with this tree and why do you think, a tree? Abra Lee: The connection to the tree is certainly ancestral, it's communal. I think of trees of black people gathering under these mighty oak trees in the south that are along the river and having baptism. I think about people having full-on church up under these trees. I think about the first reading of the Emancipation Proclamation stating that the Civil War was over, and that slavery was no longer legal in the United States happens under a tree. So, that is where community happens for many black people. Tuskegee, one of the greatest universities in the United States, certainly the HBCU, historically black college and university, is built on a former plantation covered in trees at that time. So, I think about them almost like you think about the grand ceilings of these churches all across the world in Europe. That's what that canopy is to black people. And in these places where we can gather and feel free and be our unapologetic selves and speak in the language that we want to speak. The street flame, this is where we can create music. This is where we can exchange words and ideas. So, that is why that was important to that community. Honestly, I still would argue, to this day. Doug Still: It's funny. The theme of tree canopy acting like a cathedral or the roof of a cathedral is one that's found in other traditions as well. And we spoke about that in a previous podcast about the American elm and how it forms cathedral-like canopies over streets. And so, it's interesting that you brought that up as having to do with this tree as well. Abra Lee: Again, Harlem at this time, after the Great Migration, where you see millions of black people leave the south, where the south is 90% black and half of the black south leaves and goes to Pittsburgh, and New York, and Chicago, and Dayton, Ohio seeking better lives. Even my own family members were part of this Great Migration. And I say that because this is a bunch of country boys and a bunch of country folk, men and women, country people that are really rolling around Harlem at the time. They're not necessarily mostly native New Yorkers. And so, they're used to hanging under trees in the south. I don't mean that in an insulting way in terms of lynching. I mean, gathering. I guess, the better word I should have used would have been gathering under trees in that southern heat, that humidity getting under the shade. So, it would have been a normal reaction for them to be a part of this tree.The fact that this tree symbolized hope was parallel at the same time, since I brought up the word lynching and hanging from trees, in the south, oak tree and necessarily looked at as this great mighty thing or the great mighty elm, because it is used as domestic terrorism. So, there's just this really polar opposite thing of this tree, particularly in New York, representing hope and light and not death and destruction, the way that it would have represented possibly in certain parts of the south at the time. Doug Still: Really, that's one of the legacies of the Harlem Renaissance is that black people have been able to reclaim their histories and stories and tell it for themselves. Abra Lee: Absolutely. That was what the Harlem Renaissance was. You had the writer, someone who I certainly consider-- and not just me, many people consider her the star of the Harlem Renaissance in terms of writing, Zora Neale Hurston, where she unapologetically writes about the black community. She's not trying to be WB to boys and go to school in Germany. She's fine writing about the country black community in Florida, in her hometown, Eatonville, Florida. So, that is what the Harlem Renaissance is, where black people are saying, "We've got our own culture, we've got our own style, our own art, our own everything. We don't have to recreate what the Europeans, the Italians, even our own brothers and sisters in the continent of Africa are doing or in the Caribbean. We got our own thing here." And that was what was so special about the Harlem Renaissance. Honestly, that's what's so special about the black community in America today. This is a community that was stripped of their culture, their language, their food, their parents, their relatives, their everything, their clothes. And then everything is taken from them, and then they recreate something completely new. That is how we have jazz, and hip hop, and Negro spirituals, and gospel music, and culture, and the list goes on and on, and the community is continuously reinventing itself. Doug Still: Then with the interview about to wrap up, Abra dropped a big surprise about an ancestor of hers. Abra Lee: As we are talking about the Tree of Hope making its way to its forever home at the Apollo Theater outside of the pieces that were kept by the community, I have a fun fact Harlem story to tell. There is a woman, and your audience can look up her films on YouTube named Mabel Lee. Mabel Lee. And Mabel Lee is a relative of mine. She is someone that was raised as my grandfather's sister and made her way migrated from the south to north in New York. An incredible singer, dancer. She passed away in her 90s, not too long ago. When she passed away, her name was illuminated outside of the Apollo theater. And I was fortunate to meet her many times in my lifetime. She came down to, not only my grandfather's 90th birthday when my grandfather passed away. She was so important to our family and most importantly to my grandfather that we held off on his funeral to get Mabel Lee down here. So, she was truly an Apollo legend. Doug Still: That's amazing. When did she perform? Abra Lee: Oh, my gosh. From the 1930s, 1940s. And the Soundies, I almost want to compare them maybe to short films or music videos, but just a gorgeous, gorgeous woman. If you look up Mabel Lee and look up some of those films, there's a real famous one. I think it's called The Cat Can't Dance that she did, and she's singing and the trumpet players behind her. But that's my connection to the tree. You better believe, Mabel Lee, my relative-- Even though, I haven't touched the Tree of Hope, I have a relative that has. And she's passed on as well, but she was truly a legend of Harlem and a legend of the Apollo. And honestly, God rest her soul, if she was here, I think you and I will be up there today getting a VIP tour of that tree. Doug Still: Here in 2023, what inspires you about the Tree of Hope? Abra Lee: What inspires me about the tree of hope is the possibility of what can happen tomorrow that as polarized as this country is. I would argue it is an overused word, but really it's not. That is a very factual word. There is still hope, there is still a possibility, there is still a way. There is still a way to economic empowerment, there is still a way to exchange ideas that will better this country, better this world. The treat represents that, for lack of better words, that we really are the change that we want to see. It is possible, but it is only possible through human interaction and community and gathering that community again. So, I think if one word, the Tree of Hope represents to me, it is community and we must get back to that to build and to better and to succeed and thrive to survive. Doug Still: Abra, I really enjoyed talking with you today. I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking about the Tree of Hope and your thoughts about that. Abra Lee: Thank you for having me, Doug. This has been so much fun, and I'm just appreciative to be with here today. It's a real honor. Thank you. Doug Still: And I wish you a great 2023. Abra Lee: I appreciate that. I think it's off to a great start. I accept the blessing, and I receive it, and I reciprocate that to you as well. Doug Still: If heritage trees are living links to the past, in this case, it's a stump upon the Apollo stage. It's a good luck charm, but it's also a symbol of possibility and of community that every performer is invited to take part in. From Duke Ellington to Abra's great aunt, Mabel Lee, to the stars of today. [The Cat Can't Dance plays] Doug Still: You've been listening to This Old Tree, and I'm Doug Still. Again, I want to thank Abra Lee for being such a warm and entertaining guest. And I'd like to thank you, tree lovers, for joining us today. If you like the show, one way to show your support is to hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. And jeez, I'm going to get that Patreon link up on the show's webpage one of these days. I'll let you know. You can get links and information about Abra and the places we've talked about in the show notes and see photos and other related tree stuff, if you follow This Old Tree on Instagram, Facebook, and Mastodon. Also, if you'd like to submit a three-minute tree story short about an important tree in your life, record it on the voice memo app on your phone and email it to me, I would love to hear from you. And you guessed it. This is Mabel Lee singing The Cat Can't Dance. Enjoy the rest of it and see you next time. [The Cat Can't Dance finishes] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Tree Story Shorts (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 7 Published December 8, 2022 [This Old Tree theme] Doug Still: Welcome to a special episode of This Old Tree, the show that features heritage trees and the human stories behind them. I'm your host, Doug Still. This time, we're taking a break from a big feature story to let listeners tell their own tree stories. As I like to say, do not underestimate the power of storytelling to motivate and inspire people to protect trees. There's a growing body of scientific research that quantifies the ecosystem benefits of trees. How much carbon they store, how they contribute to cleaner water, how they improve public health, the role of tree canopy in mitigating climate change, and this is all crucial to bolster efforts to plant trees and protect forests. But tell the tree's backstory and better yet, give it a name, and you will see loud public advocacy like you've never seen it before. Besides, as human beings, we just love stories. So, here's your turn. I hope you enjoy these as much as I have. Let's jump right in with tree story shorts. [This Old Tree theme] Tom Morra: This is a story of perseverance. The story of the little Mexican palm tree that could, if you will. I'm here on the island of Cozumel, where my wife and I have had a place since early 2005. In 2005, there was the mother of all hurricanes that happened to pass over the island of Cozumel and decided to sit on top of the island for 72 hours. The maximum sustained winds at the southern part of the island were 185 mph. So, it was a beast. Her name was Wilma. And the trees here on the island have just about recovered maybe three to five years ago, the effects of Wilma were no longer obvious. So, a solid 15-year recovery for the vegetation. Anyway, this is before Facebook, but we had a little message board and we used to frequent it all the time, sharing information about the island. Anyway, after the hurricane, there was a fellow named Antonio Martinez, who's still around, I think. He's a tour guide and works at one of the hotels. He was one of the first people to make a trip around the island to the east side, which is basically uninhabited, no infrastructure, just a road along the ocean with a beautiful coastline. So, Antonio took a ride around the island after the hurricane and he found that most everything had been leveled, except for this one little coconut palm, which is not a native here. They were brought to the Americas in the 1500s, but very naturalized all over the Caribbean and South America. But as he drove around the island, he made the turn onto the east side road passing south. And there's this one little palm tree that made it through that storm, through those 185 miles an hour winds. And he posted a picture of it on the message board with the quote from the Elton John song, "I'm Still Standing." Now, to this day, every time I drive around the east side of the island, there's a big barren patch of lower palms and different types of sea grape and lower vegetation. But there's that one tree and it's there to greet you as you come around the corner of the island. And I can't help but sing the song in my head every time I drive around. So, I'm Still Standing, the story of the little Mexican coconut palm that persists to this day. [music] Doug Still: That was Tom Morra, arborist and owner of TF Morra Tree Care here in Rhode Island, bringing us a story of a tree that persevered through a ferocious storm. Here's another professional arborist, Katie Breukers, who is continuing her education at the University of New Brunswick in urban forest ecology, and who also hosts a podcast called Tangled Trees. Check it out. She tells us about a charming old horse chestnut that has also persevered because of and somewhat in spite of past efforts to care for it. Katie Breukers: I would like to share my favorite tree experience as an arborist. In Stratford, Ontario, on a corner just off of the main street, there is a beautiful, mature specimen with quite a story. This horse chestnut has been there for, I don't even know how many years. It is a staple within that community. While I was working on this tree, I had multiple neighbors come out to ensure that I wasn't actually removing it. They continued to share stories with me about how they grew up with that tree, and how they had seen it change over the years, and how there wasn't really many like it in the area. The coolest part about this tree from when I first walked up to it is, there's a girdled metal bench that was cut away a few years back. This tree was originally planted in the middle of a round metal bench. So, I often find myself wondering, what type of stories were shared or what type of moments were shared on that bench before it was cut away. A little further up in the trunk, there's lots of concrete. So, this is a traditional method in our arboriculture to support a tree, one that is now clearly wrong. Beyond this, there's cavities upon cavities in this trunk. It creates this gnarly, beautiful, abstract-looking formation. Within these cavities is an ecosystem in itself from fungi to bacteria to insects. The most adorable of all is a family of raccoons. While I was climbing and preserving this tree and doing full assessments, I had this fluffy face pop out of a cavity and greet me. I committed at that moment that I was going to do everything I could to preserve this tree and keep it there for years to come. Unfortunately, even though it was previously cabled and braced, a section of the main trunk had failed. It was up to me to take this out safely, remove any hazard to the client, and then also reduce the overall canopy to prevent that from happening. I installed a dynamic cable system to a lead that was remaining just because I knew that wind forces and wind loading would now be thrown off, because this lead that had failed would create a new exposure. Overall, this tree is magnificent. It's one of the most twisted and stunning examples of what a mature specimen can be in an urban environment. It really shows how much ecosystem benefit an old tree being retained in the landscape can have. I really hope it stands for future generations, because I know for the previous generations before me, it was already a centerpiece and I think we need more of that in this world. [music] Doug Still: Next, we hear from Jean Zimmerman, arborist and author of seven books who has made the history of Manhattan a central focus in both her fiction and nonfiction. She's working on a new book entitled Heartwood: The Epic Tale of America's Forests and the Battle Over Their Fate. But right now, it's the copper beech that most captures her imagination. Jean Zimmerman: My name is Jean Zimmerman. My favorite tree would have to be the copper beech, Fagus sylvatica Atropurpurea. When I was growing up in a little town in New York's Hudson valley, we would gather beneath what we called the elephant tree. The landmark stood on the overgrown lawn of the long-abandoned mansion of Billie Burke, famed as Glinda The Good Witch in Wizard of Oz. The tree drew kids of all ages to congregate beneath its distinctive umbrella like branches. Tree guru, Michael Dirr, chose the copper beech as "one of my great plant loves." And from childhood, it has been one of mine too. A local attraction in my hometown, the elephant tree's knob-kneed trunk resembled nothing so much as the thick legs of its namesake animal. Here was every kid's dream, a private, self-contained refuge from the wider world. From the outside, long branches twisted sinuously from the crown to the ground spreading outward like a hoop skirt. Inside this protected space, we found cathedral light and branches that were perfect for climbing. Kids hid there, gossiped there, made out there. The trunk was hashed with initials and hearts. Brought to America in the 1660s, the towering European beech tops out at a full 70 feet. The cultivar copper beech takes its place among many landmarked gardens and properties. The grand homes of Newport are known for their beeches. Lyndhurst in Terrytown, New York, the former estate of Robber Baron Jay Gould boasts an imposing collection. Wave Hill, the public garden in New York city's Riverdale section of the Bronx, features two copper beeches that sit across a park lane from each other like kissing cousins. Wave Hill has a storied past, including notable occupants such as Theodore Roosevelt and Mark Twain. The latter said of the estate, "I believe we have the noblest roaring blasts here I have ever known on land. They sing their horse song through the big treetops with a splendid energy that thrills me and stirs me and uplifts me and makes me want to live always." Copper might be a slight mischaracterization of the hue of the tree's leaves, which can change over the course of a season from a reddish purple in spring to blackish purple by summer. As for those knees, the older trunks have bulges and burls that are quite unlike any other tree. And something about its bark begs for the jackknives of starry-eyed young romantics. At Wave Hill, the trunk of one tree has been pretty well-graffiti-gouged, while the other cousin is pristine. Many people over time have found beech bark useful for leaving your mark. On a stage road in Tennessee, Daniel Boone once killed a bear. Nearby stood a huge beech tree and Boone carved into its trunk, "D Boone killed a bar in 1760." Virginia Woolf name checked the beech in night and day. "It seemed a mere toss-up whether, she said I love you, or whether she said I love the beech trees, or only I love, I love." Some people find autobiographical messages on beech bark annoying. I don't. Thoreau said, "I frequently tramped 8 or 10 miles through the deepest snow to keep an appointment with a beech tree. I like to think of some lost soul slogging miles through a mysterious, tangled forest, too shy to unburden himself to the person he cares for, and surreptitiously taking a switchblade out of pocket to pronounce on bark indelibly the sentiment, “I love. I love." Beechnuts can be consumed by deer, and bear, as well as by birds and rodents and by humans, who have been known to roast and brew them in place of coffee. A nice place to drink a cup would be under the sweeping, twisted, copper-colored branches of an elephant tree. Ghosts of Mark Twain, Daniel Boone, and Virginia Woolf, you are cordially invited. [music] Doug Still: Also in New York State is Andy Hillman. As a former city forester and past president of the Society of Municipal Arborists, Andy has a long history of promoting new methods for getting trees to grow to their full potential and also communicating with people. He has a way of seeing things in a way that we don't. Could it be the birds that helped his favorite tree reach for the sky? Andy Hillman: Back in the 1990s, I was City Forester for Ithaca, New York, and working with Dr. Nina Bassuk on bare root tree planting. We planted a lot of different species bare root. We would try them in the spring, try them in the fall. We did a lot of experimentation. And we planted lots of oaks. One of the oaks we planted was Skymaster English oak, Quercus robur ‘Skymaster’. That tree has been a really good performer for us in Ithaca. One in particular that I'm really fond of, I planted in front of a gentleman's house whose name was Guy Gerard. And Guy was French. He called them French oaks, not English oaks. I think they have a different take on Quercus robur. I believe that's the oak that they use for wine barrels. Anyway, Guy was really happy with this little, tiny oak tree we planted. It was an inch and three-quarter bare root tree, cost the city about $80 back in the late 90s and was planted with volunteers from Dr. Bassett's Cornell University class. Well, Guy hung a bird feeder in that tree. It wasn't real tiny, it was about 8 ft, 9 ft tall, an inch and three quarter in diameter. He hung a big bird feeder in it, and I was a little concerned about that. He liked the tree so much that I just thought, "Okay, we'll just leave it there." Anyway, I don't know if it was the bird droppings or Guy's care and watering, but that tree really took off. Today, it towers over the three-story building in which he had his apartment. It truly is a Skymaster. When I drive by there, I think, "Wow, that was such a bargain for the city." It wasn't all that long ago that it was just planted. And now, it's an amazing tree doing all that work for the city, all the good ecosystem benefits that we want from our urban forest. So, I really recommend Quercus robur ‘Skymaster’. And Guy Gerard, I don't know where he is these days, but I hope he still gets to enjoy that tree as well. Thanks. [music] Doug Still: From New York, we head to Yosemite National Park in California to appreciate the unexpected. Our next guest is Thomas Spadea, the host of the My Favorite Trees Podcast. I love the podcast because it dives deep into the characteristics of featured tree species and how cultural history overlaps with their ecological or natural history. Here's Thomas. Thomas Spadea: Hi, my name is Thomas. I am a podcast host and seasonal park ranger. In the summer of 2021, I was working in King's Canyon National Park in California. But in October of that year, I had to be evacuated due to the KNP Complex fire. I was temporarily relocated to nearby Yosemite National Park, which was exciting for me, because I had never been there. One of the days I was there, I was exploring Yosemite Valley and enjoying the yellow gold shade of the fall season, and I saw a pop of orange-red in the corner of my eye. This made me stop in my tracks, because I realized I was looking at this beautiful sugar maple. I love sugar maples personally, because they were the first trees I ever learned how to identify. But this tree in particular surprised me, because sugar maples don't naturally grow anywhere west of the Great Plains, and I was thousands of miles from this tree's native forest. I wondered what on earth this tree was doing so far from home and later learned that this tree, this sugar maple was a remnant of one of this valley's past lives. California's gold rush in the mid-19th century brought waves of settlers who explored the Sierra Nevada mountains. But instead of finding gold, some found the most beautiful glacially carved valleys in the world and decided to settle there. Where protected meadows now exist, a western frontier town had once taken over Yosemite Valley and the townspeople took to making a comfortable life for themselves. This included planting non-native trees. In many cases, they planted fruit trees like apple trees, and these would feed their families. But in other cases, settlers planted trees that simply reminded them of the home that they had left behind, including this sugar maple that stands just opposite the Yosemite Chapel. And yes, it's in a national park and it's a species that's not native to the valley, but it's not invasive, it's not doing any harm to the natural environment around it. So, the national park lets it thrive, because it's now a cultural resource. It helps tell the story of this amazing place, all the different versions that this place has been. I was very happy to see that story was protected while also adding an extra touch of unexpected beauty to an already beautiful place. [music] Doug Still: Bear LeVangie is the co-founder of the Women's Tree Climbing Workshop based in Vermont, which has been taught by women for women since 2009. It's an inspirational and much needed professional program. You'd never see me up there with ropes, and harness, and chainsaw. What I didn't know, however, was that when pruning the crown of an evergreen tree, an arborist might be on the lookout to sustainably harvest a Christmas tree. Bear LeVangie: Hello, dedicated listeners of This Old Tree Podcast. My name is Bear LeVangie, cofounder, lead instructor, and executive director of the Women's Tree Climbing Workshop. First and foremost, thank you, Doug, for providing this wonderful piece of tree documentary for the world. And secondly, for inviting me to share a story about a tree that's impacted my life. I contemplated a while about which tree I would speak about, because to share only one story about the standing people is too arduous. They've all impacted me and that is why I've really dedicated my life to arboriculture. However, after recognizing that this month is the month of winter solstice, I had a moment of clarity. This magic month of December is all about celebrating trees. So, whether it is a gift of peace from one nation to another, a family tradition of picking out one special tree from a Christmas tree farm or walking into the woods to cut and drag a tree home, we all recognize the beauty and charisma that a tree brings to our holiday season. This year, I hope to be blessed with a codominant lead from a tree that needs pruning. It shall between 4 feet and 6 feet tall and only two and a half feet in canopy circumference to fit in the small corner of the kitchen dining room area. So, why is this month magical? Well, for me, it's easy. Besides Arbor Day, this tree-centered month celebrates rituals. From the moment you bring the tree into your abode, you are encouraging the smell of freshly cut evergreen to walk through your home. Once you cut off the base and get it into the stand, the debate of whether to hydrate it with water or ginger ale might start. While decorating, you still need to choose between strands of white or rainbow-colored bulbs, which ornaments come out of the box, and whose days, and then who gets to live where on the tree, and how deep into the canopy it must go. Then, when you go to bed, you need to decide, will the tree go dark or will it continue to glow in all of its glory? In the next coming weeks, the celebration continues with more watering and then placing all the lovely wrap gifts under it. Finally, after the culmination of post-holiday, which day is the exact moment to dethrone your green and now shedding hero? Please remember to honor your tree for giving its life to your celebration and to share your love of tree magic by recycling or composting your evergreen hero. To all of you that celebrate, Happy Winter Solstice, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hanukkah and Merry Christmas. May the tree you choose bring you joy and peace for you and your family. [music] Doug Still: We heard about birds from Andy, and birds also make their way into this story from Walt Warriner in Hawaii. Walt has served with just about every professional tree society you can think of. From the International Society of Arboriculture to Street Tree Seminar, Inc., the Society of Municipal Arborists, SMA, Municipal Forestry Institute, The National Urban and Community Forest Advisory Council, you get the picture. In this story from a rainforest, you can just hear the sound of the rain in the background. Walt Warriner: Hi, my name is Walt Warriner. I'm a consulting urban forester. I work primarily in California but I grew up in Hawaii and that's where I first became inspired to become an urban forester and work with nature. Where I live in a little place called Kahalu'u, it's up against the Ko'olau Mountains. And across the stream, right out my back door, is pretty much a rainforest. But there is specifically one stand of trees that are Java plum trees. And they've all grown together and they've become one gigantic organism. The trees stand about 85 feet tall. They have a canopy spread or a total spread of probably 100 feet plus. At the base of the trees, they're surrounded by California grass. It's a tall grass that gets to be about 6 feet, 7 feet tall. It's very thick grass. There's also another plant called the shampoo ginger. It's a ginger plant. It's very aggressive and it just takes over everything. Then, in the canopy, the canopy itself is made up of probably 35%, 40% of split leaf monstera. That's a philodendron. A lot of times, people use it as a houseplant. But when it's planted and growing in the wild, it will creep up a tree and it will eventually take over the entire tree. The taller the vine grows up to the higher parts of the tree, the larger the leaves get. Now, this monstera is exceptionally attractive because it's variegated. So, it's green and yellow and it's always putting on a show at some time of the year or another. Another thing about this tree is there's probably, I don't know, 50, 70, 80, 100 birds that live in this tree. See them flying in and out all the time. It's quite the busy tree, especially since the surrounding area, some of the trees have been cut down, and you can see the birds flying around and now they've started to make their home in the big java plum across the stream. But it was this tree that I look at all the time that reminds me of why I do what I do and why I love trees, because trees can do anything. This guy here just keeps growing and growing. It's taking on tons of weight with this monstera, but it doesn't care and it keeps growing. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it, the big java plum tree. [music] Doug Still: For our last story, we returned to Rhode Island to hear the resonant voice of Mike Maino, a personality on local radio station WCRI, and also as a leader in the barbershop music world. You can hear him sing as a bass with the Narragansett Bay Chorus or his current quartet, Trade Secret. What better way to end our episode than with a family tree hug. Mike Maino: Hello, everyone. I'm Mike Maino, and I'd like to tell you a story that happened about 35 years ago. This is not just a great memory for me, but also for my son, Justin, who's now in his early 40s. We lived in the village of Lime Rock, Rhode Island, part of the town of Lincoln with almost 100 acres of woodlands behind us. As I recall, I was out cutting the grass when he and a couple of friends came out of the woods calling to me, "Dad, Dad." He said, "You have to come and see this gigantic tree we discovered." They were convinced no one else had ever seen this tree but them. "It's the biggest tree in the world," they exclaimed. Well, off we went. No path. I just followed them proudly thinking, "I'll have to pretend to be excited when we get there." Little did I know that I didn't have to pretend, because there it was. In the middle of the woods, the largest tree I had ever seen. It was beautiful, awe inspiring. Fantastic. Just for the fun of it, we decided to join hands and see if we could circle this enormous trunk. Sure enough, three young boys and myself holding hands, just barely got our arms around it. We'd take friends there often to see it and it always impressed everyone. I'm not sure if it's still there, but I do know that it'll always be there in our memory. [music] Doug Still: I'm going to end it there. I'm Doug Still and thank you for listening to this special episode of This Old Tree. Thank you, Tom, Katie, Jean, Andy, Thomas, Bear, Walt, and Mike for contributing their tree stories. Listeners, if you would like to submit a three-minute tree story short about an important tree in your life, you can record it on the voice memo app on your phone and email it to me. I would love to hear from you. I'm taking a short break during the holiday season, but please tune in for the next episode on January 12th. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button on your podcast app, and that way we're easy to find the next time you want to listen. You can get transcriptions, links, and information about all our guests in the show notes. You can see photos and other related tree stuff, if you follow This Old Tree on Facebook, Instagram, or Mastodon. Here's arborist and songwriter, Dee Lee, to take us out. See you next time. [This Old Tree theme] [Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] This Old Tree with Doug Still
Luna Endures: A Redwood’s Survival Tale (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 6 Published on November 26, 2022 Doug Still: 0:00 Luna is a 200 foot tall redwood tree that stands like a tower on a ridge deep in a privately owned forest in Northern California. Her bark is two feet thick, and she has a gnarly, multipronged top that speaks of maturity and complexity. Luna is known as a she, that's just the way it happened. Except for an occasional ground fire, she'd lived in peace for over a thousand years. But the 1990's brought a rapid change. The trees around Luna began falling, almost all of them. Logging had occurred before, but not like this. The sound of chainsaws, helicopters and crashing trees filled the air. But soon after the men in orange hard hats came to Luna's Ridge, other people followed. Instead of carrying saws, they carried backpacks, tools, and ropes. They climbed Luna, built a platform, and sat in her branches. They often came at night under the moonlight. One of them ended up staying at the top of the tree for two whole years, a blip and Luna's lifespan but a crucial one. The loggers went away. You may remember hearing about the remarkable Julia Butterfly Hill, her two year "tree sit," and the activist efforts of Earth First to save this wonderful tree and shed light on the indiscriminate clear cutting of redwood forests. But soon after an agreement to save the tree was reached, and the national news cleared out, another crisis arose that threatened Luna's existence. It brought in new heroes, and ushered in a new era of collaboration. Stuart Moscowitz of the nonprofit sanctuary forest joins me today to tell this whole story, and describe his own special relationship with Luna, along with guest Dennis Yniguez, a consulting arborist who was part of the team that saved Luna a second time. I'm your host Doug Still, and welcome to This Old Tree. This Old Tree theme song - Dee Lee: 1:57 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me about what it's like to be, this old tree. Doug Still: 2:15 Stuart Moskowitz is a board member of Sanctuary Forest, a nonprofit land and water trust in Humboldt County, California. Its mission is to work with surrounding communities to conserve and restore forests and watersheds, and they provide educational opportunities such as public hikes, scholarships and holding public meetings. Since 1999, Stuart has been the lead monitor of the "Luna Covenant," an agreement made between the Pacific Lumber Company and Julia Butterfly Hill to preserve this magnificent redwood tree and the conservation easement created around it. For 23 years, Stuart has been balancing his career teaching mathematics at Cal Poly Humboldt State University, and caring for Luna. Stuart, a warm welcome to you. Stuart Moskowitz: 3:02 Thank you, Doug. I appreciate you putting these podcasts together very much. Thank you for including Luna. Doug Still: 3:09 But before we get into Luna's story, I was hoping you could describe her for our listeners. You've made the trek through the forest to visit the tree probably hundreds of times. Could you tell us what you see when you arrive? What does it feel like to stand below her? Could you take us there with a description? Stuart Moskowitz: 3:27 Well, Luna is deep inside private land holdings currently owned by the Humboldt Redwood company. To get to Luna, because of the agreement that was made, Sanctuary Forest has the right to go and monitor Luna at any time. And so I will notify the Humboldt Redwood company that I'm going to go to Luna. I have a key that I can open a gate and then we drive about 20 minutes. Now of course, when Julia was sitting in the tree, her ground support team had to do all of this discreetly because they were trespassing. But now we have permission. So we drive about 15 or 20 minutes up the mountain. We then have to hike another 15 or 20 minutes about, oh ,three quarters of a mile from the end of the road. We walk across the top of a very dramatic mudslide. That was part of the reason that Luna was chosen for a tree sit. And then we get to a grove that has not been touched for 23 years because it's part of the protected zone. So Luna is surrounded by lush new growth. There are a few other big trees but not very many. You have to take a lot of advanced preparation just to be able to get there and to get the permission to get there. Doug Still: 5:03 How long does it take? Stuart Moskowitz: 5:05 Oh, well, we ended up, you know, it's always a full day trip by the time we're up there and back. It's very steep and very rugged. Sometimes we obviously have to go slow. Sometimes I'll take my walking poles because it is that steep. Nothing technical, but it really makes you appreciate the steepness of just how risky it is to log on steep slopes, because that's what caused the landslide, these steep slopes. Doug Still: 5:38 Right. And so when you get there, what do you see? What do you smell? What do you hear? Stuart Moskowitz: 5:44 It's a very quiet place. It's a very damp place. There's very little sunshine that reaches the base of Luna. It's a rather protected little spot. When you get there, Luna has two big goose pens, which are big burnt out cavities that are called goose pens because in old days, occasionally, someone might put a fence across the entrance to this cavity and could keep their livestock inside it. And often, the first thing I will do is take off my pack and just climb inside this goose pen and sit down with my back against Luna, and just sit there quietly, Doug Still: 6:32 What are the tree's dimensions? Stuart Moskowitz: 6:34 Luna stands about approximately 200 feet tall, and her diameter is probably about 12 feet across, which gives her a circumference of close to 40 feet. Because it's so steep, when you're on the uphill side, you're up above that flair. But even when you're up 10 feet higher than the downhill side, the girth is quite dramatic. Now, of course, the largest redwoods can be 20 to 25 feet in diameter with occasionally circumferences that are 70, 80, and even even more. So Luna is not the tallest. The tallest ones are 380 feet. So Luna is not the tallest, and it's not the biggest. But it's definitely the biggest upon this particular ridge. Doug Still: 7:27 Yeah, it must be pretty impressive when you're coming up the hill to look up, the exaggerated height from that view. Stuart Moskowitz: 7:35 Well, it was more dramatic twenty years ago when we started doing it, when there were all these fresh clear cuts that they had been logging. And there hasn't been much logging on that hillside. So a lot of it has grown up and we don't get to see Luna much anymore from a distance. Doug Still: 7:52 That's a good thing it sounds like. Stuart Moskowitz: 7:54 We can still find Luna from way down below or down in the valley. I can still look up on the ridge and pick out Luna from a distance. But I don't like to point it out too much, because we still know that there are people that are unhappy with Luna being a protected tree up there. And we'll get into that story here in just a little bit. Doug Still: 8:14 But that protection from other trees from wind and just the elements, I think that's positive development. Stuart Moskowitz: 8:21 Absolutely. Absolutely. And the winds have been documented - when Julia was up in Luna, the winds are recorded as high as 90 miles an hour. [Wow] So yeah, that buffer zone of other trees is critical. Doug Still: 8:36 How old is Luna? And how do we estimate that? Stuart Moskowitz: 8:40 The estimate is about a thousand years old. The only way to definitively tell the age of a tree is to use an increment borer, which is a tool that you will, it basically, you screw this tool into the tree and you remove a very small cylindrical bit of wood and you can count the rings. Doug Still: 9:06 It's drilling the tree. Stuart Moskowitz: 9:07 But it's actually drilling the tree. They say it doesn't damage the tree. That's always questionable. Luna has never been bored. One thing that I have learned from the biologists and the arborists that have assisted us is that a redwood tree doesn't get its distinctive old growth look for at least 500 years or more. When a big, big redwood tree still has a shape like a Christmas tree - the symmetry of what many people imagine in a big conifer - that typically means a younger tree. It can take hundreds of years for the asymmetry to exist, where a redwood will have multiple tops. There will be damage to the top and then other tops will come up. Some of the oldest and biggest redwoods will have 30 or 40 or 50 tops, so again an asymmetrical look. And Luna very, very distinctly stands out when you can get back away from that ridge and look on that ridge. Luna really is the only one with that asymmetrical top. So there's not many old growth trees left up on that ridge anymore. Doug Still: 10:21 Where does the tree exist in relation to the Headwaters Grove? And what type of forest surrounds the tree? Stuart Moskowitz: 10:27 So as I said, Luna is deep in private holdings, the Humboldt Redwood company is the current owner. It's about 250 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge, and the Humboldt Redwood company owns about 200,000 acres of land. So that covers many hundreds of square miles of land. The Headwaters Forest was, 25 years ago, the largest intact old growth stand that was still in private hands, and that made the headwaters Grove a target, and a goal of activists to get it protected. It's probably, as the crow flies, only about 10 or 15 miles away from where Luna sits on another ridge. As I said, Luna is not sitting in an old growth forest. Luna was probably left behind the first time the loggers came through because of her asymmetries. Luna has two tops, and is not as pristine as what the loggers might want. So it possibly got left behind for that reason. So headwaters is about a 7,000 acre grove that was protected about 25 years ago, and that the timeframe is the same as when Julia Butterfly was sitting up at the top of Luna. So Luna sits way up high on a ridge and it's surrounded by cutover, redwood and Douglas fir coniferous forest. Doug Still: 11:57 So when they're logging this area, they're using both Douglas fir and the redwoods, right? What do they use Redwood lumber for? Stuart Moskowitz: 12:06 Redwood lumber is known for being incredibly disease resistant, incredibly fire resistant. My understanding is that redwood is the only wood in California, where building codes allow, you know it's the only wood that can be in contact with the earth, can be in contact with dirt because of its resistance to rot. So redwood is very valuable in that regard. It's got a beautiful color. Historically, in the late 1800's, they thought of it as a resource that would never be depleted. So many of the oldest houses around here are built from the ground up with redwood or completely framed with Doug Still: 12:52 I wonder if its ability to withstand rot is one reason why redwoods live so long. Stuart Moskowitz: 12:58 I'm sure that must have a lot to do with it. And the bark can be two feet thick. And that can withstand fire tremendously. Of course, it's not perfect, and that's why you do see burn scars. Doug Still: 13:15 It depends on how severe the fire is. Stuart Moskowitz: 13:17 Of course, and the longer we go suppressing fire. You know, there's been a lot of news lately about the size of the fires in California, because when the fuel on the ground builds up, and there's a lot more fuel to burn on the ground, that makes the fires that much hotter. But because we are in a coastal zone, we haven't gotten those large fires that have burned through California in these last few years, and they pretty much have not affected us as much here on the coastal plateau. Doug Still: 13:56 What kind of wildlife do you see living on the tree or near the tree? Stuart Moskowitz: 14:00 Certainly there are deer. There are black bear. There is mountain lion. They're the largest animals that are in those woods. We also have elk that are in these forests and on the prairies. Fox, squirrels, chipmunk. We have martins. We have raccoons that are all around but don't see them very much. What is quite remarkable is that 200 feet up in the air Julia wrote about seeing animals up at the top of the tree that we would only expect to see on the ground. You don't expect to see ground squirrels up high in the air and certain amphibians would be there. But that's something that has been studied in recent years, that redwood canopies can have their own entire ecosystem, all in one tree. Doug Still: 14:58 Who are the indigenous peoples that were here before people of European descent. Stuart Moskowitz: 15:03 The land that Luna sits on was historically the Mattole people. The Mattole Watershed, the Mattole River, it runs close by. But I have to say that this part of California, this part of the Pacific Northwest, has more tribes than any other part of the continent, and so there's a lot of overlap. So if you look at a map you'll see the Mattole right there where Luna sits. But the Wiyot people, the Wailaki people, the Yuroks, I mean, there were many tribes that would work together and interact through there. Doug Still: 15:44 So working up to the time of the tree sit, which was 1997, who owned the land there, and had it been logged much prior to that? Stuart Moskowitz: 15:54 The Pacific lumber Company goes back to the late 1800s. It was one family and I'm trying to, I'm trying to remind myself of the name of that - it was the Murphy family that owned it in the late 1800s. They were the ones that built up the vast acreage that they had, and they logged it I will say sustainably. They logged it at a rate where they probably could have kept logging it perhaps forever, with 200,000 acres. And then in the 1980s, they went public. Maybe it was in the 1970s that they actually went public. And I want to mention The Last Stand by David Harris will tell this story quite well, of how Wall Street took over the redwoods. When Pacific Lumber Company went public, there were entrepreneurs elsewhere that saw a publicly owned company with a vast amount of real estate holdings. And so at the same time that in the 1980s when the junk bond disaster was happening, and people like Michael Milken, were using junk bonds to buy up tremendous amounts of I'll say various companies, there was the Maxxam Corporation owned by Charles Hurwitz, that saw this undervalued, publicly owned company, and he started buying their stock. And as soon as he was able to get a majority share, he tripled the rate of cut that was happening on these forests. So we never saw large clear cuts before the 1980s. But then when Maxxam took over, and with a huge debt that they had incurred in order to make the takeover happen, they had to increase the rate of cut. And clear cuts started showing up. And that's what started attracting activists and protesters to come to these forests, which is why you will often hear that the redwoods were sort of the center of the timber wars back in the 70's and 80's and 90's. Doug Still: 18:11 You mentioned that mudslide. Was that in 1997 or 96, sort of right around there, when they were clearcutting the hillsides of the mountains? Stuart Moskowitz: 18:21 Yes, it was New Year's Day 1997. Everything pointed to that it was the rate of cut, it was the increased clear cutting that caused this mudslide which buried seven houses at the bottom of the mountain right in full view of US Highway 101. So it became a public relations nightmare for the Pacific Lumber Company having this, you know, this pile of mud right there by the highway. You know, it's not just the cutting of the trees that increases the risk of landslides. Probably it's the building of roads and landings that have even more impact on the integrity of the hillside. Doug Still: 19:03 And that's when Luna, in all her glory, got noticed. Stuart Moskowitz: 19:07 That was New Year's Day, 1997, and yes. They continue to log up on that hillside in the vicinity of the mudslide, and that's what attracted Earth First to target that hillside for a tree sit and Luna was the largest tree. And so different activists, they rotated sitting in Luna for several months in early 1997. And it was towards the end of 1997 when Julia Butterfly Hill, a young woman who was recovering from an automobile accident, 23 years old and looking for something to change her. You know, she felt a calling to come out to do something in the redwood forests. She really didn't know much about it, but she attended a meeting that was, you know, that the sitters and the activists were holding. They took a lot of planning and a lot of ground support in order to keep these tree sitters supplied. And no tree sitter ever stayed up for more than a couple days at a time. Doug Still: 20:17 Right. But that system was in place already. Stuart Moskowitz: 20:20 That's right. I believe that the platform that was put 180 feet up in Luna, and installed during the dark of night, which is where the name Luna came from, meaning moon, as the platform was built in the moonlight. Julia volunteered to take a turn up at the top of Luna. She had never climbed a tree before, but they showed her how to climb and she got herself up to the top. And I think what made Julia different from the other tree sitters is that she is articulate, and could speak to the cause well. And once she started talking, and people started listening, she stayed. Of course, she never dreamed she would stay for two years. Sort of the assumption was that these tree sitters were dirty and grubby and filthy hippies, you know, that that were sort of the dregs. I mean, you know, they were not treated well. But Julia didn't fit that stereotype at all. And because she was 200 feet up in a tree, her voice - people paid more attention to her voice. And I have used the phrase that Luna acted as sort of like a microphone and a receiver. I don't know, if people would have listened to Julia, they certainly didn't listen to other activists on the ground. But the fact that she was risking her life 200 feet up, and month after month after month, got people to start listening to her. So Luna provided that platform. Doug Still: 22:03 I remember the story from the late 90's on the East Coast. And I think when I mention it to most people, they know about it and remember that. Would you say that it was one of the most successful environmental direct actions that has occurred? Stuart Moskowitz: 22:21 Yes, and it makes me - thank you for reminding me of my daughter saying to me, "But Dad, it's just one tree. What's the big deal, Dad, you know, she saved one tree." But I think it's more what that one tree symbolized and the fact that that one tree gave Julia a voice that was heard, and continues. Luna continues to be a symbol for that movement. Doug Still: 22:52 When did you first hear about the tree sit? And when did, how did you get involved initially? Stuart Moskowitz: 22:58 My first direct contact was on the one year anniversary of the tree sit. So it would have been November of 1998 that there was a rally held right there on the mudslide, right there where these houses were still buried. There was a rally that brought several 100 people. There were celebrities that came, there were activists that were there, there was a lot of speaking, there was music, and then there was an invitation to collectively trespass and hike up the ridge to go visit Luna. So I hiked up the ridge with about 300 other people. But I also was a relatively new board member with the Sanctuary Forest Land Trust. And we had an attorney on our board at the time. His name is Herb Schwartz, who was part of the team that was doing the negotiating between Julia and the Pacific Lumber Company. Julia said she was going to stay in Luna until Pacific Lumber Company agreed not to cut it down. And she was going to stay there. So as as two years starts to come around, and the company realizes that she means it, she's not coming down, I think the fact that they've got this young woman in her early 20's, sitting 200 feet up in the tree on their land, risking her life, they finally said okay, after two years that they would negotiate and let's get her down before she gets killed up there. So Herb was part of the team that drew up the agreement, wrote the agreement that Julia and the Pacific Lumber Company signed to protect Luna. And a nonprofit land trust is required to be that third party to act as not so much an enforcer, but a monitor of this agreement. So Sanctuary Forest was invited to take on the role of being the primary monitor of this Luna easement, this "Luna Covenant" that was created. Doug Still: 25:10 What are the contents of the agreement? Stuart Moskowitz: 25:12 Basically, on a map, they drew a 200 foot radius circle around Luna and said that nothing can be done inside this 200 feet. That 200 feet provided a buffer zone for any surrounding timber harvest activity that would be done, keep that activity away from Luna. It also gave Luna a place to fall and land in a protected area, you know, if and when Luna were to fall. So this document defines the land. It also defines who can access Luna, and essentially only the Sanctuary Forest monitors and Julia have the right to enter the property. Doug Still: 25:55 And that was signed December of '99? Stuart Moskowitz: 25:59 '99, that's right. When Julia signed it, fortunately Herb Schwartz, the attorney, happened to be a certified notary. And so he climbed his first redwood tree to go and get her, to witness Julia signing the document. When she had Herb's notarized signature, then Julia came down to the ground after that. Doug Still: 26:24 Then probably starting in January of 2000 you started monitoring the tree. You're the lead monitor? [Right] Then you encountered a crisis. Stuart Moskowitz: 26:33 But then we had a crisis. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 26:38 Music Stuart Moskowitz: 26:39 It was Thanksgiving weekend of 2000, when one of our board members gets a phone call from one of the activists who had been part of Julia's ground team. And he had continued to go up to Luna on his own even after even later. And he discovered fresh sawdust in a chainsaw cut in, you know, Luna had been cut with a chainsaw. And so he immediately called us, and that would have been, you know, we had an emergency board meeting on that Sunday after Thanksgiving. And Monday morning, several board members, and we had a county sheriff, we had a private investigator. A crime had been committed, this was direct vandalism. We went into the corporate offices of the Pacific Lumber Company to tell them that, you know, a crime had been committed, that the easement had been violated, and we needed to get up there right away to assess the damage. And so, oh goodness, there must have been 15 or 20 of us that went up that day. We had foresters from the Pacific Lumber Company, we had our own foresters, we had the law enforcement. We also had some people from the California Department of Forestry as well. So we had the environmentalists and the loggers and the government agents all up there to assess the damage. Doug Still: 28:08 And what was your response when you first saw the damage? Stuart Moskowitz: 28:11 It was horrifying. It was horrifying. It looked like they did not try to cut Luna down. They went more than half way around but just did a horizontal cut. If you're going to cut down a tree, you go in on one side and you will remove a wedge and then you'll come around on the backside to do a back cut on the opposite side from the wedge. Well, no wedge was ever taken out, no back cut was ever put in. Doug Still: 28:38 So it wasn't about cutting down the tree. It was about killing the tree Stuart Moskowitz: 28:42 It was about killing the tree, it was about killing the movement we think? About hurting Jullia and hurting the activists in an indirect way. Doug Still: 28:54 So you put together - you and Sanctuary Forest put together a team to assess the damage and, you know, treat the tree. Stuart Moskowitz: 29:02 So we called Save the Redwoods Lee which is based out of San Francisco, four and a half hour drive south. We called Save the Redwoods League and said, explained to them what we had on our hands, and asked them if they had any expert arborist that knew how to work on large redwood trees. And that night, the President of the American Society of Consulting Arborists and one of the Save the Redwoods League's leading arborists, his name is Dennis Yniguez - left his Berkeley home and drove all night Monday night and showed up Tuesday morning and went with us to Luna Tuesday morning. Dennis Yniguez: 29:44 This was not just girdling the tree. This was a plunge cut with a chainsaw that probably had a 36 inch bar. Doug Still: 29:53 Here's Dennis Yniguez today, the owner of Tree Decisions out of Berkeley, California. He's a Registered Consulting Arborist, or RCA, of the American Society of Consulting Arborists, of which I'm also a member. What were your first thoughts after seeing the cut in person? Dennis Yniguez: 30:11 Well, it was a huge cut. A few of us showed up the next day on site, and we had a contractor's tape and snipped off the end of it so it would fit into a narrow saw curve, and we could measure the depth of the cut. It was about 32 inches deep, and Luna at that height of the cut, which is oh, I don't know, two and a half feet above the ground, Luna's 11 feet thick. And the cut was about 60% of the way through the cross section of the tree. And there were two cavities in Luna, an uphill and a downhill cavity, before the cut was made. [Right] It's very common for these old growth trees to have openings in them. They're fire resistant, but sometimes a very intense fire at their base will manage to get through the bark and burn the tree. And Luna had two cavities that are significant, you can stand inside both of them. So somebody had apparently done a plunge cut right in the middle of the tree and just, just went from left to right as far as they could around the tree without felling it. They cut enough so that the saw curve was facing the direction of prevailing winds. And the next big storm would have had a 200 foot lever. It is 180 to 210 feet, whatever the height is, or was at that time. And it would have had a huge leverage to push over Luna. The circumferential percentage of living cambium from the roots to the crown was probably about 25%. Doug Still: 31:53 Could you explain for our listeners what the tree's cambium layer is and why it's so vital? Dennis Yniguez: 31:59 It's absolutely vital. The cambium is like an envelope or a sheath around the circumference of the tree beneath the bark. And it's living cells that are meristematic, meaning they can produce several different kinds of cells. And they produce cells on the outside called the phloem. And the phloem distributes the carbohydrates, the sugars that are made by the needles of the tree and photosynthesis. And on the inside of the cambium, it produces xylem, which is the wood of the tree that conducts water and minerals, dissolved minerals, in an upward flow from the roots to the top of the tree. It's absolutely essential. It's the living part of the tree. The middle of a huge tree like that is mostly nonliving tissue. Doug Still: 32:52 Yeah, I think of it like a cylinder just below the bark. Stuart Moskowitz: 32:56 Thank you! In one sentence, you've said it. Doug Still: 32:59 And they had cut through the bark and through the cambium layer. Stuart Moskowitz: 33:03 Oh, yeah. And it was severed from top to bottom. So the structural stability was gone in 60% of that tree. Doug Still: 33:12 Had you worked with redwood trees before, and what makes them challenging? Dennis Yniguez: 33:17 Oh, redwood trees are yes, I worked with them before and quite a bit. Redwood trees are amazing. They are one of the most resilient trees that I've ever heard about or worked with. They have the ability to uptake moisture, in a way - it's called Interlocked Sap Ascent, and water from all around the tree arises in a zigzag pattern beneath the bark, so that by the time the water is only about 10 feet above ground, it may well have gone almost all the way around to the other side of the tree. So water is raised in a diffuse pattern. There's no one to one relationship between a severed root and the branches above that root. [Interesting] Yeah, so redwoods can nourish the entire crown and uptake moisture and distribute it in a diffuse manner, which is a huge survival tactic. They also can do direct foliar absorption of water from the fog. They can take it right out of the fog, right through specialized needles. And they also have leaves that do what's called guttation, which means drip, fog drip. And a lot of that is taken up again by the roots, they can pull the water either directly from the fog. They can have fog drip and then it comes up through the roots. So this direct foliar absorption is one thing that probably had a lot to do with Luna being able to withstand. Doug Still: 34:56 I was gonna ask if this sort of diffuse water absorption system, or distribution system - it helped the tree in this case, didn't it? Dennis Yniguez: 35:06 Oh, yeah, I mean, it must have. And also, redwoods have a habit, which they've evolved over 150 million years, to be grafted to neighboring trees. And so it is entirely possible that other redwoods around Luna were connected to the surviving root system of Luna. And we don't know, but the trees around Luna may have been playing a part in assisting Luna's survival. Doug Still: 35:33 Right, although a lot of the trees had been removed through the logging, but there was some left. Dennis Yniguez: 35:39 Oh, definitely. Doug Still: 35:40 So you were concerned about the tree's stability with the prevailing winds. So you prescribed installing brackets. Dennis Yniguez: 35:49 Yes, I don't want to take all the credit for that. We had a team of people, and I'll tell you. There was a state forester that was working with Pacific Lumber Company, the company that Julia was protesting against, and there was a private forester, also, who was called to be on the team to go up and inspect the damage. And there were a few other folks too. There was an engineer from Arcata. And the brackets that went on the tree are made of half inch thick plate steel. And I think the bolts that are used from top to bottom above and below the cut are one inch thick, possibly thicker, possibly one and a quarter, I don't remember. And there are five pairs of brackets on the area that was cut. We went out after Pacific Lumber Company had kept four of their machinists working overtime to build these brackets. The same day they were designed, they were built. And we hiked in about six o'clock that night, and some people went in by truck, some hiked in and carried in the brackets and carried in some of the gear. And Pacific Lumber Company had designated a driver to park on a landing on a flat above Luna where some of the logging trucks had been. And they went up a logging road and took in a generator and hundreds of feet of electric cable, and ran about 300 feet of cable down from a generator down to Luna. So a team of about I think there were six or seven of us worked, oh, for something over four hours. And we had klieg lights and powerful drills and lag bolts and the brackets, and we were able to put those in the tree before the storm came. And the storm broke that night. At 11:45 or so, we were finished, we were walking up and out of the hill and back to some vehicles, and the storm broke. And nobody knew if Luna was going to make it. Doug Still: 38:03 Sounds like quite a team. Dennis Yniguez: 38:05 Doug, it was great. And one of the people in the team was from Pacific Lumber. So this event brought everybody together to work and try to make sure this tree didn't go over. Doug Still: 38:19 Ironically, the cut heightened the cooperation between all parties. Stuart Moskowitz: 38:23 It led to heightened cooperation. And if anything, I think the cut probably had the exact opposite effect of what the intent of the cut was. Instead of demoralizing the movement, it actually energized the movement. Dennis Yniguez: 38:37 It was an adventure, I'll tell you, because we forgot what's called "a splitter" when we walked down. The splitter is a device that can take the electrical current from a cable, and it goes into a "Y" so that you can put two devices on the cable and have them be powered with electricity. So we had to choose between the drill and the lights. So we'd light up the tree and place the drill. And then we'd turn off the lights and plug in the drill, and we kind of did that. A few people had flashlights. But it was an adventure. Great fun. Great team. I should tell you the brackets are not the only thing holding Luna up. Doug Still: 39:13 So in addition to the brackets, there was also a cabling system installed. Could you describe that? Stuart Moskowitz: 39:20 Sure. So the brackets were put up on Tuesday, you know, installed by Tuesday night. But we knew that those brackets which were bolted into Luna right at the base, nobody really expected that to hold up over time. So at that point, with the news out of what was going on, I started getting emails and phone calls from arborists, from engineers, from biologists, from chemists from around the world. Architects telling us what we had to do to save Luna. Sending us these diagrams with these cabling systems, you know, we gotta put some guy wires up on Luna up high, you know, and tether, her. All different kinds of ways to do it. It was Tuesday that those brackets were put in place. Julia was out of state when it all happened. She came back to Humboldt County, and on Wednesday, came with us up to Luna. A very, very emotional trip up to Luna for sure. And then had a press conference back in Eureka that afternoon to explain to the world what had happened. And I remember at that press conference that a man came up to me, introduced himself. "My name is Steve Salzman," and he's an engineer, and he wants to help in any way he can. Dennis Yniguez: 40:42 An engineer, Steve Salzman, designed a cable system along with Steve Sillett, who's a Humboldt professor and Jim Spickler, who was a colleague and is now doing a lot of work up in Humboldt County and actually different places around the world. They designed a cable system and anchored it at about 100 or 110 feet with three cables that are anchored into the base of other smaller redwoods in specific locations around the tree. And they went up. I was not with them when they went up to put the half inch cable around the tree. As you know, as an arborist, you can't girdle the tree with cables, as the tree will continue to have radial growth and it'll end up choking itself off. So they use vertical wooden slats. And they wrapped a cable about four times around these vertical slats. And that prevented the cambium from being fully compressed. And it's a technique that they've used in eco-forestry. And there's a gentleman named Paul Donohue and his wife, Teresa Wood, who came up with that idea. And with Steve Sillett and Jim Spickler, they managed to install this anchorage point up at 100 feet. And the way they ran a line from that anchor point was to use crossbows and shoot lines down. Steve Salzman was the engineer who went out and identified the base of the trees that they'd be anchored to it, and they'd shoot across a line with a crossbow down from that anchor point. So they got a straight cable run when it was time to pull the cables up. Doug Still: 42:32 How has the tree responded to the brackets and the cabling system? Is the bark growing around the brackets or have adjustments been made? Dennis Yniguez: 42:42 Oh it's doing great. Luna is amazing. It was pretty sketchy for a while, I mean, for the first year, year and a half, Luna looked pretty good. And then we knew that there would be die back in the top, regardless of all its resilience and survival mechanisms. That's a huge, a huge blow to the system to have 60% of the cross section completely severed. So over time now, Luna has closed off a lot of the curve that was cut, and has built what look like huge burls over some of the area of the cuts. And it's kind of holding steady on top. It has, oh, I don't want to put a percentage on it because I really don't know, but maybe 15% die back over on the top of the tree? But Luna's making it. We all knew Luna would make it. It's amazing. I don't know of it ever happening before. I don't know of a situation like this. Doug Still: 43:48 Who was Cherokee Bear Medicine Healer, Byron Jordan, and what did he propose? Stuart Moskowitz: 43:53 So the brackets got put in place first. And then the cable system took another two months. And that took care of the structural first aid for Luna. But we still had biological first aid, and emotional and spiritual first aid as everybody around was wanting to approach this from, you know, from all these different angles. And I had all of this advice from people about how to heal Luna. You know, from the biologists, from the chemists from the herbalists. And Julia said, "Whatever you do," she said, "I'm not invested in the specifics, but please, whatever you do for Luna, make sure it comes from the earth. Nothing synthetic." Dennis Yniguez: 44:43 It was important to Julia to really try to find a way to use a balm, or use some kind of poultice, or some solution on the tree where the cuts were made. And that was her intuitive feeling. And I can't begin to speak about the depth of her connection with the tree after living with a single tree for two years up in the canopy, but when she has an intuitive feeling about what's right for the tree, I just really want to listen to what her feeling is about it, and to respect that. Stuart Moskowitz: 45:26 And she gave me the name of Byron Jordan, a Cherokee Bear Medicine Healer - earth medicine healer. He lived in Cambridge, Massachusetts at the time. And so she gave me Byron's phone number. Byron had reached out to Julia and offered his help. And you know, if he could be helpful, he wanted to help. And so Julia gave me his phone number. And we had some very interesting phone calls where he explained to me that the best thing to put into this cut would be clay, from a source as close as we could get to Luna. He said, clay is a natural healing agent. He said, clay has been packed on wounds by indigenous people since time immemorial. He said Jesus healed a blind man with clay. He said, he's, you know, and so if you can pack that with clay, that's what you should do. And then Byron also offered, he said, "The only thing better than clay is bear saliva." He said, "bear," he said, "saliva, is a powerful healing agent. He said "All, no matter the species, animals will lick their wounds to clean themselves." He said that bear saliva, he said, "there's probably a bear up there licking that cut right now." He said to me, he says, "so if you can get some bear saliva and mix it with the clay, that would be perfect." I was sort of hesitating at that point. And he did offer, he said "It's hard to get," he said. Doug Still: 46:58 I imagine so! Dennis Yniguez: 46:59 So how are you going to get bear spit? Well, it turns out, I wasn't up in Humboldt County when this discussion was going on about what to do. And they divided up the responsibilities into a kind of a treasure hunt for who would come up with what mixtures for this tree. And for some reason, I got nominated to get the bear spit. So I don't know why. I got a call one evening, maybe nine o'clock, and they said, we're going to do this poultice. And I happened to know the director of the zoo over in San Francisco, the director of the botanical part of the zoo. And I called him at 10 o'clock and said, Tom, can you get me any bear spit? And he didn't find that to be an unusual request, because he had received a good number of requests for the urine of lions and tigers and all that. Doug Still: 47:54 That wasn't the first type of request he received like that. Dennis Yniguez: 47:58 Not really, well, I don't know if it was the first one for bear spit, but they get unusual requests from people who want to keep deer out of their yard and all that. They want the urine of predators. So anyway, he said, "Well, we don't have any black bears here at the zoo, but I know where you can locate a black bear." And it turns out there was a black bear named Rosemary who had been orphaned in a fire. And she was in the zoo up in Humboldt County, and so I wasn't there. But I heard that a small team of people went to visit Rosemary, and they brought chocolate chip cookies and celery, and they fed her chocolate chip cookies. Reached through the cage bars, fed her chocolate chip cookies, and then she starts salivating and they put a piece of celery in her mouth, and then they were able to withdraw some bear spit. And that was mixed in with the clay. It sounds out of this world. It sounds so foreign. Doug Still: 49:03 I'd spit out the celery after having chocolate chip cookies too! Dennis Yniguez: 49:06 [laughs] Sure. Stuart Moskowitz: 49:09 I think part of the whole mystique of this whole story is that, I'm a mathematics professor, you know? Taking care of a tree especially like this is not part of training. [Doug laughs] I'm a scientist, you know? And here I am using bear saliva and clay to heal a tree. You know, how did it, how did this all happen? And one side of me says, "Stuart, you don't believe any of this." But then, it's happening. You know, it's happening, and I'm in the middle of it. Doug Still: 49:41 What is the "Essence of Luna? Stuart Moskowitz: 49:43 [laughs] So, one of the things that Julia did over the course of the two years was she made a tincture. While she was 200 feet up, she collected bark and lichens and various little plants and sticks. And she, and she steeped it and made a tea out of it, and she made a base for what she eventually called the "Essence of Luna." And she gave me a little bottle with a dropper and asked me to give some of this back to Luna every time I visit Luna. It's sort of similar to other homeopathic remedies where, you know, if you or any of the listeners are familiar with the Bach flower remedies. The Rescue Remedy is something you know - it reminded me a lot of Rescue Remedy, to give back after a trauma. Doug Still: 50:44 You are quoted in one of the Sanctuary Forest reports as saying, "Luna is responding with the wisdom of more than 100 million years of evolution in order to regain her balance." So as an expert, how does it help to be humble? Dennis Yniguez: 50:59 Oh, my God, I don't know much about humility. [both laugh] I think it's a constant effort. It's a constant effort, everybody has a tendency to want to elevate themselves. Doug Still: 51:17 It sounds like you were responding to the people who had an emotional attachment and emotional investment in this tree. And you were also responding to the tree itself, and your knowledge of the species. Dennis Yniguez: 51:33 You know, it was a great gift to be able to be involved in this project. And what's so beautiful about it is that it really brought people together. And it's been almost 23 years since Julia came down from the tree, and our politics have gotten more divisive, and a lot has happened in the world. And it's easy to see the kind of lower nature that sometimes comes out in folks. And to see the best in people come together for a really great purpose, that was inspiring. You've you've heard from Stuart, who is the guardian angel of Luna, he's been rock solid for 23 years, going up regularly to Luna. And it's amazing how the love of Luna and the love and appreciation of Jiulia continues after all this time. Doug Still: 52:33 The story of Luna is so well known that Luna is sort of like a tree celebrity, in a way. People know that name. They know the tree, they know the story, or a lot of people do. And you spoke about the power of that. But are there any drawbacks to that sometimes? And what's the balance between sharing Luna with the public and protecting the tree? Stuart Moskowitz: 52:57 Well, the timber wars, many of the loggers, much of the timber industry blamed the environmentalists for not being able to log trees the way they used to. And so yes, we're very protective about keeping Luna's location a secret. And one of the things I can appreciate about Sanctuary Forest, is that we're not like Earth First. We don't take direct action. We are not out there sitting in trees, or blocking roads, or vandalizing equipment. We believe - and we don't believe that logging should stop. We recognize that, you know, that lumber is a very important building material and that's not going away. And so we take an approach of working, trying to work cooperatively, trying to work side by side to come to some agreement. And that's one reason why I really appreciate that we've been able to develop this relationship with Pacific Lumber Company and now even more so with the Humboldt Redwood Company. Doug Still: 54:11 Do you think Luna could live another 1000 years? Stuart Moskowitz: 54:15 Redwoods don't die of old age. I think we've come to realize that. That they can live on and on and on. And so with that in mind, I would say yes. And what Luna has demonstrated - in some ways Luna has become an outdoor laboratory, because it's not often that you can study something that's been vandalized like this, that's been cut like this. And she's demonstrated how strong she is, that she can keep going. Doug Still: 54:44 There's clearly a bond between you and Luna that is unique and special. And I'm sure Julia and any of the other people who've cared for Luna and been a part of the story have similar experiences, but in their own way. And I bet some of our listeners today are thinking right now about a tree in their lives, that means something special to them on an emotional level, and I put myself among them. Are we eccentric? Normal? Or somewhere in between? Stuart Moskowitz: 55:12 [Laughs] Oh, wow. How about all of the above? You know, like I said, my background, I'm trained as a mathematician, as a scientist. This is not what I was raised to believe in. But these last 23 years of my life I've been exposed to and I have experienced things that I never dreamed I would have ever experienced. Is that eccentric? Probably a little bit. Yes, probably. Probably some. But it's real. It's happening. You're right, I have become attached to this tree. Partially because of Luna herself. And you know, it's just, Oh my goodness, it feels so comforting to be there, you know, to sit in one of these goose pens and lean back against Luna. It's a very special feeling. But Luna has enriched my life. The people that I have met over the years - you included, Doug, you know, I mean, the people that have interviewed me, the people that I have taken to Luna. Seeing such diverse perspectives come together to work side by side. In that regard, there's no way to discount the effect that Luna has had. Doug Still: 56:35 Thanks so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for coming on the show. Stuart Moskowitz: 56:40 Thank you for doing this, Doug. You know, I appreciate it because this is part of what keeps the story alive. So I'm delighted that here we'll have another opportunity to share the story. Doug Still: 56:53 I hope you've enjoyed hearing the story about Luna the redwood tree, especially from the perspective of Stuart Moscowitz, the lead monitor of the Luna Covenant from Sanctuary Forest. It took a special person in Julia Butterfly Hill to sit in Luna's crown for two years, and a dedicated crew of supporters to help. But it's just as meaningful for someone to devote 23 years to taking care of this beautiful redwood and what she symbolizes. You can donate to Sanctuary Forest and help them continue to do all the good work that they're doing, by going to their website at sanctuaryforest.org. I'll put the link in the show notes. Thanks again to Stuart, and much appreciation to Dennis Yniguez for coming on the show to share his expertise and experience in this wonderful story. Before we end, we do have a Tree Story Short for you. Here's Carol Kingsbury telling us about an historic elm tree she knew growing up in Dedham, Massachusetts. Carol Kingsbury: 57:52 When I was a kid, I had a 1958 sky blue Schwinn bicycle that I wrote all over Dedham, Mass. When I would ride down East Street on my way to Dedham Center for a root beer float, I would pass by this huge, very old tree. One day I stopped to look when I noticed a plaque in front of it, which said Avery Oak. Its trunk was the biggest I had ever seen, and there were scarred places where major branches had once been. I knew Dedham was one of the oldest towns in Massachusetts because the Fairbanks House was just down the street, and it is the oldest wood frame structure still standing in America. But here was this living thing that had been there for hundreds of years. Wow, I thought. The people who built that house went by this tree every day. Even at that young age, I had a glimpse into the relativity of time, and an appreciation of all that this tree had witnessed. I remember being sad when I read in the paper that a thunderstorm had finally taken it down in 1972. The article said that they wanted to take the tree to build the USS Constitution, something about the twists and turns of the woods being perfect. Folklore has it that Mrs. Avery is the one who said "absolutely not!" Good girl. Doug Still: 59:27 And I'm going to end it there. I'm Doug still, and thank you, tree lovers, for joining me today on This Old Tree. If you like to show, one way to show your support is to hit the "subscribe" button on your podcast app, and that way we're easy to find the next time you want to listen. You can get links and information about our guests in the show notes, especially a list of books and documentaries done on Luna and Julia Butterfly Hill. You can see photos and other related tree stuff if you follow This Old Tree on Instagram or Facebook, and now on Mastodon. Also, if you'd like to submit a one to three minute Tree Story Short about an important tree in your life, you can record it on the voice memo app on your phone and email it to me. I'd love to hear from you. Here's arborist and songwriter Dee Lee to take us out. Thank you for joining me. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 1:00:14 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me about what it's like to be, this old tree. Shadow and shade, kids down the block are selling lemonade. Send them down to cool… This Old Tree with Doug Still
The Mies van der Rohe Honeylocust of the Alfred Caldwell Grove (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 5 Published November 11, 2022 Doug Still: 0:00 What does a big, old, thorny honeylocust tree on the campus of the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago have to do with Ludvig Mies van der Rohe, one of the towering figures of 20th century architecture. Would you believe this tree and its species have a place in the history of modernism, specifically its iconic landscapes? Professor Ron Henderson is here to talk about his favorite tree at IIT, about Mies van der Rohe and his colleague, Alfred Caldwell, and how the honeylocust became the feathery urban forest powerhouse it is today. I'm your host, Doug Still, and welcome to This Old Tree. This Old Tree theme song - Dee Lee: 0:37 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me about what it's like to be this old tree.... Doug Still: 0:57 Think I can speak for a lot of people when I say that we sometimes take honeylocust trees for granted. If you live in a city in the eastern half of the United States, you've undoubtedly walked underneath the shade of a honeylocust tree thousands of times, whether walking along the street, traversing a corporate plaza, or strolling through a local park. They are everywhere with their irregular form and branching patterns, fine foliage, and ability to withstand the toughest of urban conditions such as drought, salt, and neglect. As an urban forester, I know that within the larger goal of selecting trees to plant for diversity, the readily available honeylocust tree was the species to choose for the most difficult of situations, saving other more "interesting" species for places where they're more appreciated. Well, to all Gleditsia triacanthos everywhere, I humbly apologize. It took the research and appreciative eye of my friend Ron Henderson to wake me up out of my maybe slightly condescending attitude to see how beautiful this tree is, and to look at it freshly through the eyes of Mies van der Rohe, his landscape architect Alfred Caldwell, and other mid 20th century modernists. Ron Henderson is Professor and Director of the Landscape Architecture and Urbanism Program at the Illinois Institute of Technology or IIT in Chicago. He's also Principal of Lirio Landscape Architecture based in Newport, Rhode Island. He has a broad range of research and interests including landscape based urbanism, gardens and arboricultural practices in China and Japan, and his own gorgeous botanical drawing, which has been exhibited at the United States National Arboretum in Washington, DC. He is the author of The Gardens of Suzhou, and numerous articles on landscape architecture and urbanism. His current research includes the Driverless City Project, which focuses on the urban design implications of driverless and autonomous vehicles. He's also my longtime friend. Ron, welcome to the show. Ron Henderson: 3:08 Doug, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Doug Still: 3:10 The center of attention today is a 70-year old me. honeylocust tree that stands outside your design studio on campus at IIT. It's a tree with a distinct place in the history of landscape architecture and modernist design, which you're going to tell us about. But before we get into all that, could you just describe the tree for our listeners, in your own words? Ron Henderson: 3:33 Something that most people would notice first about the tree is that it's thorny. It's a Gleditsia triacanthos, the honeylocust. It's situated on the south side of IIT's Crown Hall, fairly close to the building, maybe only 10 or 12 feet off of the building. It's probably 24 to 26 inches in diameter. Honeylocusts are what we refer to as an open habit or a picturesque habit tree, which means that their trunks are not necessarily straight, and their canopies are not symmetrical. So they kind of range in their branching patterns. They're also pinnate leaf trees, which means that their leaves are made up of many small leaflets, right? Doug Still: 4:26 It's actually double compound. Ron Henderson: 4:28 Yeah, some leaves are pinnate, some are double pinnate, and sometimes they're pinnate and double pinnate, even on the same tree. Doug Still: 4:37 I say "pinnate," have I been saying it wrong this whole time? Ron Henderson: 4:39 Oh, I don't know. [Both laugh] Doug Still: 4:42 But yes, it's a very feathery leaf. Ron Henderson: 4:45 It is. So they're fern-like. And what that does is, it means that the sunlight penetrates the tree canopy. It's not a very dense leaf pattern. So light penetrates the tree canopy and reaches the ground, which means it's also a tree where grass and herbaceous layers of plants grow quite well under honeylocust. Doug Still: 5:13 I think what distinguishes it for me is that irregular form you were talking about. I can tell that it's a honeylocust tree from 200 feet away or more. Bending branches, and the fine texture to the leaves. Ron Henderson: 5:26 Exactly, and I think that's one of the reasons why this was a tree that was used on the IIT campus. The IIT campus is a modernist campus, the master plan by Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, the German architect who came to Chicago in the 1930's. And this picturesque habit and open canopy contrasts very distinctly against the kind of right angle cubic massing of the buildings designed by Mies van der Rohe. So there's a really rich relationship in contrast between the buildings and the trees. Doug Still: 6:08 Yeah, I love your appreciation for this tree. I have to say, honeylocusts are sort of ubiquitous, you know, it's probably the most common street tree in the eastern United States, at least in the Northeast. As a longtime, maybe slightly jaded urban forester, I'd probably walk right by the tree without thinking about it too much. But you wrote an article a few years ago about honeylocust trees called The Modernist's Tree, and it was in Dwell Magazine. And part of what makes THIS tree so special is what it standing next to. And you had just started describing that. Ron Henderson: 6:49 Yeah. So in Chicago, it is about one third of the species composition of the urban forest. So it has been planted quite a bit over the last 50 years or so because it's so successful. But also because, as we mentioned, the canopy is fairly open, which means light penetrates to the ground. The leaflets are also very small, so that when they fall to the ground, they kind of just disperse in the wind. So those qualities have made it quite a valuable and desirable tree in cities. It's also very rugged. Doug Still: 7:31 It's probably one of the toughest trees that we plant, [right] in terms of soil compaction, salt, its ability to withstand abuse and neglect. It's one of those trees we choose when we're like, okay, we need the toughest tree that we can in this particular spot. That's a place for the Ron Henderson: 7:52 It is, and in its relationship to buildings, honeylocust. because the canopy is open and rather diaphanous, and the quality of light is so bright beneath it, it's also a tree that's become quite desirable by architects because it's a tree that doesn't hide buildings. It casts a very soft shadow against the wall of the building. But it doesn't hide the architecture, which has made it a very desirable tree by some of the best architects and some of the best landscape architects of the modernist period in America. Doug Still: 8:31 Can you tell us about this building that this tree is standing next to, where your design studio is? And tell our listeners, who might not know, who Mies van der Rohe is. Ron Henderson: 8:43 So the building is Crown Hall. It is the home of the School of Architecture at Illinois Institute of Technology. It's listed on the National Register of Historic Places, and is recognized for a couple of innovations. First of all, the design studio, which is the place where architecture and landscape architecture students have their desks where they work on their design projects. It's one big room. So it's a universal space, which means everybody can see what everyone else is doing. So it's a little bit of a teaching and learning "in a public square" kind of space. So several hundred students are in the same large space together. [Right] The building is a steel structure with glass walls. The steel structure at Crown Hall, part of the innovation is that the girders are on the roof and you don't see them inside the building. So the interior of the building is a very taut, clear rectangle with four corners and smooth floor and a smooth ceiling. And from the outside, it's a very open steel and glass structure, so you can also sense the life and the vitality of the teaching and learning that's happening inside of it. Conversely, when you're inside of it, you're very aware of the trees that Alfred Caldwell, the landscape architect who worked with Mies and was also faculty at IIT, designed and planted around the building. Doug Still: 10:26 I was reading a little bit about it. This building as a whole is considered one of Mies' masterpieces. Ron Henderson: 10:31 It is, you know, some of his other well known buildings includes the Seagrams building on Park Avenue in New York, the Edith Farnsworth House which was also a steel and glass house, one of the first glass houses just outside of Chicago. But his master plan for IIT, as well as about thirteen buildings that he did on our campus is the highest concentration of his work. Most of us would consider Crown Hall the epitome of his work on our campus. Doug Still: 11:10 Just backtracking a bit. So he is considered one of the greatest modernist architects of the 20th century, with Le Corbusier, Walter Gropius, Frank Lloyd Wright. And he was a German, he was previously the Director of the Bauhaus in Germany. Ron Henderson: 11:30 That's all correct. Doug Still: 11:31 I was brushing up on my art history [both laugh], and until he was the last director of the Bauhaus in 1933. Apparently, the Gestapo raided their school and dispersed it. It was considered very "un-German," the International Style of modernism. They didn't want to have that. That ended the Bauhaus, and he ended up emigrating and coming to the US. Ron Henderson: 12:03 Yeah, that's correct. He and Gropius and several others were able to be invited to teach and contribute to universities in the US. So Gropius went to Harvard. Mies van der Rohe came to IIT. Along with him he brought Ludwig Hilberseimer, the planner, and others in a very complex, geopolitical time for sure. Doug Still: 12:34 Right. And part of his responsibilities was, he was commissioned to redesign the campus as you say. Ron Henderson: 12:40 That's right. His master plan for the campus was really one of the first importations of Bauhaus planning and compositional principles in urban planning in America. So the composition of buildings at IIT is not what one might expect at a university. We don't have quads, for instance. The buildings kind of slip past one another. And our landscapes are called fields and meadows. We don't have quadrangles or a yard like Harvard, which is a more domestic term. Our terms are more ecological in a way, you know, fields and meadows. Because the landscape flows through and among the buildings is not defined, like a courtyard would be. So the the campus is a much more porous spatial order. You know, the IIT campus again, to distinguish it maybe from other campuses, because of this modernist spatial planning, it's an open campus. Because we don't have quadrangles means we don't have gates, and we don't have thresholds through the buildings where you walk through a doorway into the courtyard. The perimeter of our campus is open. So it's open to the neighborhood, it's open to the community. So it's spatially integrated, not a place apart. Although the way the buildings are built distinguishes it from the adjacent neighborhoods. That also means that the landscape can flow through the campus. So with Alfred Caldwell's work with Mies van der Rohe, building what's known as a campus in a park, the buildings float in this lightly wooded landscape that has a series of clearings or openings in the canopy, which are places where the fields are. And so there's a continuity in the landscape that washes across the campus. It's again a little bit distinct from having a series of enclosed spaces and quadrangles. Doug Still: 15:13 Right, and a series of separate gardens. Ron Henderson: 15:15 And a series of separate gardens. And so one of the things that helps the landscape read almost like a native savanna, which would be the the native ecosystem here in Chicago at IIT, is the use of honeylocust as as one of the trees because of its irregular habit and open canopy. It's a very naturalizing kind of tree, right, as opposed to a linden or a sugar maple or a tree that has a more tight habit and formal character. This ranginess and openness of the honeylocust allows it to kind of dance through the campus. Doug Still: 16:05 Right. And so it's sort of like a field tree. Ron Henderson: 16:09 It is a field tree, yes. Doug Still: 16:11 In the Midwest, I think it's range - it's mainly, from Minnesota down into Texas, and the central part of the country. Some people probably consider it a weed, but it grows along the edges of forests. You had a quote, in your article you write, "In his 1939 book, Siftings, Prairie School landscape architect Jens Jensen wrote, 'There's a certain refinement about this tree and its golden yellow autumn color. It gives a soft light to the landscape. Jensen further described the honeylocust's common situation along the edges of forests. Down in central Illinois, the honeylocust is at home, and in some sections is known as the Farmer Wife's Tree. This name has been given to it because of the fact that it was the farmer's wife who went into the wooded areas along the prairie rivers for locust saplings. It was beside such a country fence row that Alfred Caldwell, who had worked with Jensen, planted some of his first honeylocusts at his Wisconsin farm in the early 1940s.'" First of all, why were the farmer's wives going in the woods for honey locust saplings? Ron Henderson: 17:27 I don't know. [Both laugh] Doug Still: 17:31 I didn't get that part of it. But that's what he said. But maybe we could talk about who Alfred Caldwell was and how he came to work with Mies van der Rohe? Ron Henderson: 17:41 Alfred Caldwell was a landscape architect active in Chicago through most of the 1900s. Pretty much his life spanned the century. He grew up in Chicago, and began working with Jens Jensen. And was in fact, working on the site with Jensen on the Ford Estate, north of Detroit, which was one of the first times that the honeylocust tree was, as you said, kind of pulled out of the field and brought into the garden. Jensen who was a proponent of native plant species and an ecologist. Among other things, he was active in helping to save the Indiana Dunes. He was using plants that maybe the more academically trained landscape architects on the east coast were not looking at. So he was perfectly happy using this kind of field tree in a garden. Doug Still: 18:47 So Jens Jensen and Alfred Caldwell were really the first champions of the honeylocust tree. Ron Henderson: 18:53 Yes, and I think Jensen built an appreciation for it. But there was really no Jensen landscape where the honeylocust became iconic. It was Caldwell, and in a different way the landscape architect Dan Kiley, who elevated the honeylocust into becoming an iconic modernist tree. For Caldwell, who designed really some of the most remarkable landscapes in America all of which are in Chicago with the exception of park in Dubuque, Iowa, the Alfred Caldwell Lily Pool in Lincoln Park, Promontory Point are near the University of Chicago and Hyde Park, as well as a series of projects and ongoing work at IIT. When Mies was relieved of his responsibilities at IIT as director of the architecture program, Caldwell resigned in protest and left the university. He was invited to teach at University of Southern California at Los Angeles and also did some really remarkable projects there. Caldwell was one of the few people that both Frank Lloyd Wright and Mies van der Rohe liked. Frank Lloyd Wright invited Caldwell to move to Taliesin East in Wisconsin and work with him. Mies first met Caldwell at what's now known as the Alfred Caldwell Lily Pool, a project that he had done when he was with the Chicago Park District. Mies, as the story goes, encountered Caldwell at the park, which has a remarkable wooden gate and a series of stone and wood pavilions that are often characterized as Wrightian. And Mies had a lot of admiration for this work, and ended up inviting Caldwell to also teach at IIT. So Caldwell was someone who both Frank Lloyd Wright wanted to work with and Mies van der Rohe wanted to work with. I don't think there are very many people that would be able to span this sense of, kind of Bauhaus rigor around the way things are built and the Wrightian spirit of a kind of Jeffersonian agricultural America with a kind of sense of populous democracy that Wright represented. And I think he learned a lot of this from Jensen in terms of how the landscape represented American values in a different way in the Midwest, than the more academic and maybe even still European looking east coast. Doug Still: 21:53 The modernist style - International style - began in Europe after World War One, and had become international. But the honeylocust is a species native to the American Midwest, as we said, and sort of distinctly American. I find this blending of backgrounds really interesting. But do you think that Mies' choice of the honeylocust, and working with Caldwell, was purely aesthetic and practical? Or was there also an additional meaning there too about adopting culture beyond regional boundaries, if you know what I mean? Ron Henderson: 22:31 I do. When you look at the multitude of drawings and studies that Mies van der Rohe did as he was designing the IIT campus master plan, you see someone who's drawing the buildings with straight edges, with triangles and T squares and very precise lines. And then when that's laid out, you see that he picks up a fat, thick pencil, and he does these incredibly gestural squiggles across this very precise drawing. And he's drawing the trees. [Right] Yeah, so the drawings give evidence that Mies was looking at that contrast between the cubic linearity of the buildings and the gestural vitality of trees. Caldwell was able to fulfill Mies' sense of what the landscape would be by recommending the honeylocust as the primary tree on campus, because as we come back to this picturesque habit, open habit and the quality of life that they provide. Doug Still: 23:52 A short digression. The more I spoke to Ron, the more I realized that it was landscape architect Alfred Caldwell that helped catapult the honeylocust from wild field tree to modernist darling. I had the honor and pleasure to speak with someone who knew him. His name is Richard Polanski, who owns an orchard not far from the Caldwell farm. Here's a snippet from our talk as Richard helps bring Alfred Caldwell alive for us. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 24:18 [Music] Doug Still: 24:23 So Richard, tell me a little bit about how you came to know Alfred Caldwell. Richard Polanski: 24:28 Well, it was in 1982. My wife and I had decided to strike away from our career kinds of jobs after a few years out, several years out of college and we decided to buy an apple orchard. And we had rented an orchard and got our feet wet that way and we weren't from rural backgrounds or anything, either one of us. It was a big decision to make. It was that same month in 1982 that Caldwell called me, because that was through a reference to my mother in law, who lived across the street from the Caldwell farm in Bristol, Wisconsin. [Gotcha] He called me one night and asked me if I could come over to take down a little shed that he had built on his 40 acres. That was the first little shed, an 8 by 12 wooden shed that he built right after World War II when he bought that 40 acres. And I said, well, I can do that. I worked in the area. So a seventeen mile drive over there, met him. Then he told me he didn't have to be there when I tore this down. But he gave me all these rules about not driving on the lawn and whatnot, of course, which I broke all of those rules [Doug laughs]. Tore it down, got rid of the concrete underneath it. And a few days later, he called me and said, "When are you coming back?" He was so happy. He was so happy that I did it. And he wanted to know how much to pay. And I said I put the building back up, it's already in use. And he couldn't believe it. And he would call at 7:30 almost every night saying, "When can you come over?" Doug Still: 26:15 He clearly liked you. Richard Polanski: 26:17 Right, we hit it off pretty well, right off the bat. He had a four acre apple orchard up in the corner of the 40 acres, and that's something he planted the year after he bought that property, right after World War II. Which was the first time we ever had any money, he said. His family was very poor. Kind of wanted to do, I think, what Frank Lloyd Wright did, who he met ten or twelve years earlier than that. And they talked about being architects in the United States at that time. It was tough to do. And so, Wright went out on his own and started the farm, and Alfred kind of fell into that same idea of place to be your own person, and to be able to develop and be totally free from constraints, I think. Doug Still: 27:18 How would you describe his personality? What was he like? Richard Polanski: 27:22 Well, he could be the sweetest man, quite unbelievable in certain ways. Most people are probably familiar with Jehovah Witness, where the religious group comes and knocks on the door, and they want to pass out some of their information. And virtually every year, some summer day, they would show up way back into the property and knock on the door. And he would ask me to give them a glass of water, and we would sit and talk for a few minutes. And he would just be so sweet about that. But he could also be just a bear. The wrong person at the wrong time? He would you know, physically, just about physically remove you, you know, get out of here! (Doug laughs] Oh, it could be terrible. One of his colleagues at the campus, Louis Johnson. Louis could come and they would go off and talk about bees or have these conversations about the school. And then two hours later, they could be in a huge argument and Louis would have to leave. [That would be it] Yeah, yeah, and so it was the full range. Doug Still: 28:45 He knew how to get things done. Richard Polanski: 28:47 He did. And at the same time, you didn't realize how hard you were working. He was just so good at that! And I remember reading some of it from his memorial service, people who had written about their experiences. Students of his that so many people remarked that they had no idea they were capable of so much, that he got it out of them in one way or another. Doug Still: 29:19 That's amazing. What's one of your favorite stories about him? Richard Polanski: 29:24 Oh, gee, I've thought about all of these things so many times. It's hard to place one because there's so many. But I think in relation to trees, which were such a big part of his life, and I don't mean "tree" like a particular tree, but trees and forests. And after many years of working there we really didn't spend much time in the woods because we were always doing building projects. And we built a council ring out in the woods, and then he wanted me to make a path through the woods down around the marsh and then to meet up in a different location. The instructions were, this is just great, instructions were, "I want a path that a blind man walking in the dark will not stumble." [laughs] Doug Still: 30:30 Okay! A good path. Richard Polanski: 30:34 Yeah, right, right. And of course, but then without disturbing the roots that are growing above the ground. So it was quite a thing. So I started in on it, laid out a few different areas where I could do that and I showed him. And then one day I was out walking around in a part of the woods that I hadn't seen before, and it was not filled with the invasive species buckthorn, Rhamnus cathartica is it? So that part of the forest was not invaded and I went, "Jeez, that's really interesting." So I was walking around in that part, and I found a card table chair, you know, just a metal folding chair, leaning up against a tree. I went, "Well, I'll take that up to the house." And so later when I was done, I took it up there and I said, "I found this in the woods." "Put that back!". [both laugh] That is really a great story. It's him. You know that that was his chair out in his words that he used. Doug Still: 31:50 And what's a council ring? Richard Polanski: 31:51 A council ring is, well, he got it from Jens Jensen, the landscape architects whom he worked for early on. Alfred said he kind of saved him from, made him a man. To think big thoughts, not just small thoughts. So Jensen built these. A council ring, they can be, the one we built is only about 15, 17 feet in diameter. And it's of fieldstone, or not fieldstone, I'm sorry. This one is limestone, flat rocks, stones that we were able to get from a quarry up in central Wisconsin, where we did go and he selected special pieces of that have those stones for certain spots. So it's a circle, and it's about 17 inches high, you know, a decent sitting height. And there could be a fire pit in the middle like this one. But it's for sitting and talking and meeting and being with people in a ring. Doug Still: 33:01 Ron told me that he wrote poetry and short stories. What's your experience with those? Richard Polanski: 33:08 Some things, I can think of the one that he had me have engraved on the mantle of the beautiful, fabulous fireplace in his studio, which is a wooden structure. He had me find someone to engrave, to cut into the stone. And the poem is, "Wisconsin wood smoke, bright days will to slush and golden rut." And that's a poem that he wrote thinking about when he worked for Jens Jensen, and he would drive into Wisconsin looking for plant material, trees, shrubs, flowers, different things. And he would drive his old car. He said that it had cardboard for the floor and just holes in it. And he would be driving through the countryside, and often in the winter, driving along and you see that in the winter every house has a chimney with smoke coming out of it. And then as the sun comes up on the snowy, icy roads, they turn to slush, and then they get rutted, and so there's the golden rut. So that was his comment on those days and working for Jensen. Doug Still: 34:43 I later asked Richard about Mies van der Rohe and Richard Caldwell. Do you remember the story of how they met? Richard Polanski: 34:51 That was when Mies and, I think, it was Hilberseimer, or no Hilberseimer came later. Mies was, it was in 1938, and Mies was in Chicago basically looking for a job, and Alfred was working on the Lily Pond on Fullerton, Lincoln Park. Mies was there and happened to be there and they started talking and Mies got very interested in this man, Alfred Caldwell. And then that's really when it all started. And it wasn't I don't know how long after that, but Mies started calling Alfred because Mies wanted Alfred to teach. And Alfred kept hanging the phone up on him because of Mies' German accent. He thought he was saying, "This is Me! This is Me!" [both laugh] He called several times, he finally realized this is Mies van der Rohe who was calling him. [right] So then they did meet and went through, you know, they had to figure out how to get Alfred into the school without having any credentials other than what he could do. Doug Still: 36:09 Jens Jensen had Alfred Caldwell to assist him as did Mies van der Rohe, and Alfred Caldwell had you to assist him. Do you have a "Richard Polanski" in your life that you're passing some of this information or knowledge down to? Richard Polanski: 36:32 Boy, that's quite a question. Well, my orchard is my life, aside from all the things that I've done with Alfred's things. And I really hope that I do have some time now as I'm 72 and I can't keep doing all this orchard work. But for me, there are some young people here at my orchard. Rachel, who started working with me over at Caldwell's, and now lives in the old farmhouse here and is married. And there are some young people in my life that I'm hoping that they will continue our apple orchard here, which is an important thing to me. Doug Still: 37:14 I'm gonna let you go. But I really enjoyed talking with you today and learning about Alfred Caldwell and other people in his life and your work. Some great stories. And I really enjoyed it. So thank you. Richard Polanski: 37:28 Well, thank you. Doug Still: 37:32 And back to Ron. Ron Henderson: 37:34 You know, I'm working on a new landscape architecture master plan for the campus with Chicago landscape architect Shandra Goldsmith Gray, and we're looking to diversify the species because there are a few too many honeylocusts in the overall proportion. And looking at things like Kentucky coffeetrees, and yellowwoods, as well as the nut trees, the hickories and walnuts. Doug Still: 38:00 Trees with compound leaves. [Exactly] Open forms... Ron Henderson: 38:03 Compound leaves, open form. Almost all of them have yellow fall foliage. Doug Still: 38:09 Right, very nice. You and your family are from Indiana, which is smack in the middle of the honeylocust's natural range. Would you say that you have a homegrown appreciation for this tree? And what is it about the honeylocust that speaks to you? Ron Henderson: 38:26 I do not have a homegrown appreciation for the honeylocust tree. I have a homegrown appreciation of chinkapin oaks and persimmons. [both laugh] You know, this is I think this is a learned appreciation almost an academic appreciation that grew out of being an IIT. But I began to understand how its qualities are so positive in this particular kind of setting. You know, before I had a deep understanding of IIT, a place that I came to about a decade ago, my appreciation for the honeylocust was more focused on another project in southern Indiana, in Columbus, Indiana, which is another center of modernism in America. A small town with a remarkable collection of works by modern architects and landscape architects. There, the landscape architect Dan Kiley, working in collaboration with the architect Eero Saarinen and with Alexander Girard, the interior designer and graphic designer, worked on a project for the Miller family who were the owners of Cummins Engines. And one of the great modernist gardens in America is the Miller garden that grew out of that project. Kiley had a more European sense of tree planting, whereas Caldwell planted drifts of trees. Kiley planted grids and allees and lines. A very geometrically ordered spatial sequence of distinct rooms and spaces using any number of species. But iconically at the Miller garden, is an allee of honeylocusts that almost are like a landscape logia between the living room of the house, looking out over the great lawn that rolls down to the river. Doug Still: 40:45 Yeah, very beautiful. Ron Henderson: 40:46 It is, it is. And those are much different trees. Kiley selected trees that were a little more insistent. So the trunks were the same diameter, they're a little bit more straight trunk. Whereas Caldwell might look to find the most gnarly, asymmetrical tree, Kiley would try and find matched trees. Doug Still: 41:12 So most likely, Caldwell selected that tree outside Crown Hall. Ron Henderson: 41:16 Oh, for almost certainly. He selected all of the trees for his projects. Doug Still: 41:22 And is that in a drift, or is that on its own? Ron Henderson: 41:25 It's part of a little grove. Doug Still: 41:29 You said it's covered in thorns, and I assume seed pods? [Yes] Which is interesting. But around this time, a new variety of honeylocusts was developed and patented, which you described in this in your article, at Siebenthaler Nursery in Ohio. How did that play into how the honeylocust was planted and approached in the following decades? Ron Henderson: 41:55 So the native honeylocust has very sharp, pronounced thorns that grow out of the trunk. Native Americans used those thorns as needles and for sewing leather. So they're very sharp. And yes, they have very large seed pods. They're in the pea family. So they're like big pea pods with a very leathery casing. And, you know, maybe they average somewhere around 8 to 12 inches long. Those two characteristics - thorns which could hurt people, and the pods which become litter in an urban setting or... Doug Still: 42:43 And there are a lot of them. Ron Henderson: 42:44 ...and there are a lot of them. Those are less desirable, although I love them. And on an aside, the honeylocust Right, he would have had that available to him [Yes] this new range, as you noted, was in the Midwest. Over the last several millennia, the range of the honeylocust has retreated because those seed pods were symbiotic, had a symbiotic relationship as food for megafauna. So giant sloths and mastodons were able to eat the leathery seed pods. They would be scarified as they were digested. And so that relationship between megafauna and the honeylocust is such that if you go to the Field Museum here in Chicago, and you see the diorama is with these megafauna painted on the walls behind them are honey locusts. And so the pods, they're hard for other smaller fauna to digest. So their range had been reduced. But it also meant that in the 20th century, that was not a very desirable trait. So the Siebenthaler Nursery, had the new cultivars. But he chose not to use it. understanding is they discovered a tree not far from from their nursery, a honeylocust tree that didn't have seed pods, and was thornless, so they began to propagate it. And so that variety, the 'Moraine' honeylocust, grew out of their nursery and was one of the first. In fact I believe it was the first shade tree patented in America after the Plant Patent Act from the 1930s. So Caldwell largely uses the thorny pod tree. Kiley, on the other hand, selected Gledistia triacanthos inermis as it's known, which is the thornless seedless variety for the Miller garden in Columbus, Indiana. Doug Still: 45:05 Now, I called Siebenthaler Nursery at your urging prior to this interview and spoke with Jeff Siebenthaler. And he said that the original 'moraine' tree no longer exists. The particular field where it was has been plowed under and is now housing development or something. [Of course] He described it, so there's Gleditsia triacanthos inermis, which is the variety and then 'moraine' as a cultivar of that. But the 'moraine' unfortunately, or fortunately I don't know or how we look at it, is not seen in the nursery trade much anymore. There are many different other cultivars that are used prominently. Ron Henderson: 45:48 Yeah, there are 'Skyline' and many.. Doug Still: 45:52 'Shademaster.' Ron Henderson: 45:52 'Shademaster,' that's right. Doug Still: 45:54 Other ones. So I have one last question for you. When you walk by this tree nearly every day, or at least very often, what passes through your mind when you see it? Ron Henderson: 46:08 Giants sloths. Doug Still: 46:09 [Laughs] Very interesting. I had no idea. Ron Henderson: 46:15 So I teach plants and design in our landscape architecture and urbanism program. And for that class, the first day of the class, I do a walk around the campus. And I start with that tree. It's the first tree that I bring the students to. We walk out of Crown Hall, walk down the travertine steps, walk to the east, 30 feet or 40 feet, and we start talking about the world that that tree embodies. It's Bauhaus, it's modernism, it's giant sloths, it's the quality of the light. It's the shape of the trunk and the branching, it's the shadows that are cast on the glass walls of Crown Hall. It's the texture of the light that penetrates into their studios where they're working. So much gets embodied in that one tree. So my campus walk is about an hour and 45 minutes, but I spend 30 minutes or more, just at that one tree. Doug Still: 47:29 We were talking about giving it a name and I was thinking, why not the Mies van der Rohe honeylocust? But with your talk about Alfred Caldwell and his influence, I don't know, we'll have to come up with something different. Ron Henderson: 47:45 We do refer to the space to the south of Crown Hall as the 'Alfred Caldwell Grove' or as the 'Caldwell Grove.' So it's interesting that we don't have a particular name for this one tree. So we tend to just refer to that collection as the 'Caldwell Grove.' Doug Still: 48:07 The 'Caldwell Grove.' Okay. Thanks for joining me today, I really enjoyed our conversation. Ron Henderson: 48:13 Same here as always, Doug, let's plant some more trees. [Music] Doug Still: 48:17 Will do, take care. Well, I ended up calling it the Mies van der Rohe Honeylocust in the Alfred Caldwell Grove. Ron, I hope that's okay, maybe it'll catch on. And thanks again for elevating the honeylocust tree in my eyes, and the view of history. And now it's time for the segment Tree Story Shorts, where listeners can share a story about a tree in their lives. Here's Tom Brennan of Coventry, Rhode Island. [Music] Tom Brennan: 48:53 This is Tom Brennan with an "Ode to the Lone Tree." At the corner of two well traveled roads, stands a field of tall grass, and in the center of that grass stands a lone tree. I do not know what kind of tree nor what kind of grass. I have always assumed that it was a hayfield and thought of the man who would cut it as the farmer. Maybe I'm right, or maybe he is just a guy who moves the grass every now and then. But one thing is certain. He has always mowed around the lone tree. He has never cut it down, he has always respected the tree. Perhaps as many of us do, revered it for its beauty and its uniqueness, its abject perfection. Maybe it was that, or maybe he has just never bothered. Perhaps it was simply less trouble to mow around it. Whatever the case, year in and year out, the tree has stood. For my whole career of thirty years in this, the largest town in the smallest of states, that tree has stood in that field and on that corner, a silent witness to the seasons and to the growth of the town around it. Thousands of people have stopped to photograph the lone tree. The lone tree has never objected, never demurred, never been asked for nor signed an autograph or a release form. It has changed, as we all change, yet it has never changed at all. Ever stable, ever beautiful, ever stately. Its proportions exactly correct. A perfect specimen of whatever species of tree it is. Under its branches countless birds have nested, around its base a thousand rabbits have been born, in its field as many woodchucks have raised their young. Deer have nibbled at its lower branches, young lovers have sat in its shade. The lone tree sees all, knows all, keeps all their secrets. Now, the hayfield, if that's what it is, is to be developed. Condominiums they say. And they say such ideas have been proposed in the past, but the construction, or the destruction, has never happened. Am I selfish when I hope that it never does? When I hope that the farmer keeps on mowing and the lone tree keeps on...tree-ing? Well, then I am selfish, because I hope the lone tree remains for many, many more seasons. More birds, and more bunnies. More woodchucks and more deer. More lovers, and more secrets. [Music] Doug Still: 51:49I'm going to end it there. I'm Doug still, and thank you tree lovers for joining me today on This Old Tree. If you liked the show, one way to show your support is to hit the subscribe button on your podcast app, and that way we're easy to find the next time you want to listen. You can get links and information about our guests in the show notes, and see photos and other related tree stuff if you follow This Old Tree on Instagram or Facebook and now Mastodon. Also, if you'd like to submit a one to three minute Tree Story Short about an important tree in your life, you can record it on the Voice Memo app on your phone and email it to me. I'd love to hear from you. Here's arborist and songwriter Dee Lee to take us out. Have a great day. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 52:37 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me about what it's like to be, this old tree. Shadow and shade, kids down the block are selling lemonade. Send them down to cool breezes sweet cascade, tailor made by this old tree. In 1600 you were just a seed, reaching bothers sky, high. Waiting for a chance to take your place in the warm sunshine. Here I go, high above the place where the people grow, leave my troubles on the ground far below, so I can get to know, this old tree. Summer sparkle in your leaves. Autumn winds will bring relief. Winter calls for you to sleep. Spring returns again in green. But the town - ships on the water side spy your royal crown. Sentinel of green, two points off starboard bow, homeward bound to this old tree. In 1800 you felt the thunder or roll, lightning split the sky, high. Though the fire raged in the little town below, you managed to survive, this scar upon your side. This old tree, reach out and touch a living history! Beneath my hands an ancient mystery, how small I am by this old tree. How small I am by this old tree. This Old Tree with Doug Still
Preservation is Progress: The Brontë Oak (Transcript) Season 1, Episode 17 Published July 5, 2023 [Song - Pendulums by Sarah Harmer] 00:05 Doug Still 00:27 That is the music of Sarah Harmer, a Juno Award winning singer-songwriter from Ontario, Canada. Besides being great, why am I playing her music? Because in 2006, she gave a benefit concert to raise a portion of $343,000 needed to save a big oak tree along with another band called Ohbijou. Very cool, and I would definitely go to that concert! The money was required to redesign a highway so the powers that be wouldn't plow the tree down to make room for more cars. The concert was part of a larger fundraising campaign led by members of Oakville, Ontario. But how did it come to this? It turns out this beloved tree faced numerous existential threats over the course of its 200 plus years, surviving each one if only to be saved again by future generations. I talked with several guests, including local tree experts John McNeil and Pete Williams; Oakville Town Councillor Allen Elgar; and Sarah Harmer herself to find out where this tree gets its nine lives. Is it worth $343,000 to save a single tree? I hope to answer this as we learn the enduring story of the Brontë oak. I'm Doug still, and this is This Old Tree. [This Old Tree theme song - Dee Lee] 01:56 Doug Still 02:14 The Brontë oak is a massive oak tree that stands in a long grassy island within the busy Brontë Road in Oakville. The important Halton Regional Office Complex exists across the street, while the other side leads down into a natural area that holds Brontë Creek. Four lanes veer around the tree, two on each side, creating an eye shape with the tree in the middle of a large mulch bed like the pupil within an iris. Indeed, it sees everything coming and going into Oakville as it has for at least two centuries. Depending on who you ask, the tree is either about 200 years old, or as many as 375 years old. It dates back to pre European Settlement when the lands were the traditional territory of the Huron-Wendat and the Haudenosaunee, and now is treaty land of the Mississaugas of the First Credit Nation. The tree stands 20 meters tall with an impressive 25 meter spread - that’s 65 and 82 feet to us Americans - and a 60” diameter trunk that demands your attention. It is a stunning sight, and comforting to those who know that its presence might easily have been denied. Few people know the history of the Brontë Oak better than John McNeil, the longtime City Forester of Oakville. He's a professional colleague and friend of mine, and is now a consulting arborist for McNeil Urban Forestry. He and this special tree have been through the trenches together. John, welcome to the show. John McNeil 03:51 Thank you very much, Doug. I'm glad to be here. Doug Still 03:53 We've known each other I think for about 20 years. We served on the executive board for Society of Municipal Arborists together, I think that's when I first got to know you. John McNeil 04:03 Yes. And I always looked up to you, Doug, and still do physically because you're - not just because you're taller, but you are the president that preceded me. And whenever we go back to SMA meetings, there's a ceremony that the past presidents pass the gavel, and you're always standing on my left and pass me the gavel. You taught me a lot while you were there. Doug Still 04:24 I always knew you were from the town of Oakville, but being the dumb American that I am, I've never quite, like, understood exactly where that was. John McNeil 04:34 It is located west of Toronto about an hour's drive. Doug Still How did Oakville get its name? John McNeil Well, it's a municipality named after a tree, the Quercus oak and it was the predominant species of the forest when the Europeans came to settle in the 1700s 1800s looking for not only timber, for pine for the king's Navy, but also to blossom a local timber trade. And so the pine and oaks were essentially cleared from the region to sustain those industries that supported villages and hamlets that started popping up along the north shores of Lake Ontario. Doug Still 05:23 Right. And conveniently, they could put the logs on a ship, and send them right back to England. John McNeil 05:29 That's right, down to Lake Ontario, down the St. Lawrence River out into the Atlantic. Oakville was named after the predominant deciduous species in the region, which were red and white oaks. Doug Still 05:40 So we're gonna be talking about the Brontë Oak, which is a white oak, which dates before the founding of Oakville and the area was logged. Why do you think this tree was left? Any idea? John McNeil 05:54 It would be pure speculation on my part, Doug. As I understand the some of the background, some of the history that I learned of the story behind this tree is that a settler was granted a tract of approximately 315 acres in and around that region where the oak tree today is located. And he was a prominent member of that logging community that we just talked about. And he was a sawyer. And perhaps his farm boundary was situated somewhat in and around proximity to where that tree was - a lot of trees often were cleared in this case for logging but where they served a practical purpose perhaps marking a prominent spot or a corner boundary, or perhaps that's why it was spared the ax. Doug Still 06:48 Did the highway, or did the road always come right by the tree? John McNeil 06:53 Well, that highway - that is part and parcel of this story. It was a provincial highway, although of only two lanes for many years. You know, prior to any so-called highways, there was a stage coach to support this logging industry or timber industry, as we called it at the beginning of our conversation. There were hamlets that were dotted, you know, just speckled specks within the wilderness, not connected and isolated, hugging the shores of the north shores of Lake Ontario and perhaps moving inland along some of the river systems, because there are a few prominent rivers that drain into Lake Ontario that move back into the hinterland. And these isolated unconnected communities ultimately, in the early 1800s, as I understand, started to be connected and there was a prominent stagecoach run between Muddy York and a community farther west of Oakville, which is now the City of Hamilton. Today's highways were former stagecoach runs, ultimately, it became more busy as the automobile was rolled out in the early 1900s. It became a road and progressed as the volume of traffic gradually increased to its status today. Doug Still 08:11 So maybe that's why it was saved early on, because there was a stagecoach road, or it was a passageway, and it was not in the middle of a field that didn't affect agriculture. They provided some shade and wayfinding… John McNeil 08:25 That's a reasonable proposition. Doug Still 08:28 Which is the opposite of its later troubles, but we'll get to that. You told me about when you first learned about the Brontë Oak as a young urban forester in Oakville. Could you describe that day? And who did you meet? John McNeil 08:41 Yes, I'd love to, because even though it was a long time ago, as I said, I was the forester there for some 30 years, my career began there in the late 1980s. I thought about it this morning prior to this interview, I drew in my breath, that's almost 40 years ago today! A long time ago, but when I moved into the area, my boss at the time encouraged me to get to know certain individuals as part of my introduction to the community. I was new. I was a young, impressionable urban forester in my mid 20s. And he encouraged me to get to know the personalities in the area. And one of the individuals whose name he dropped was a fella by the name of Dr. George Atkins, but left it up to me to make the contact. So one day I called up this gentleman, and he very graciously received me, and I'll never forget that afternoon I spent. It remains with me today as an example of an outstanding gentleman that, and a generous, warm gentleman, and a very knowledgeable gentleman, and one whose name is linked to this tree. Dr. George Atkins at that time, and this is probably in the late 1980s. Doug. He was a retired agronomist, a field of agricultural science. And he happened to live on the property directly across the road, Brontë Road, from what is today called the Brontë white oak tree… Doug Still Right in front of our tree… John McNeil …from our tree. He could see it from his study. The house remains there today. And it's a beautiful, I'd say Victorian style three story home with gables and decorative architecture. And the large wraparound porch is something that would strike you, out of maybe Ann of Green Gables, as a beautiful country home. So I called him up and asked if I could come over to see him. And he very graciously said yes, and we set up this date, where he entertained me. And then I came up the driveway. He welcomed me into his home and sat me down in this beautiful hand wood paneled study for the afternoon, and we enjoyed a wonderful conversation. And then the conversation turned to the Brontë white oak tree. And he was very much in tune with this tree and loved this tree. And I credit Dr. Atkins who has since deceased, as the prominent person who was involved in saving this tree from destruction. But there's at least three threats to this tree. Before we continue I’ll just name them. The first threat that I'm aware of was a hydro line. The second threat was a water line. And the third threat was a highway expansion. So a hydro line, a water line and a highway expansion. And Dr. Atkins was prominent in saving the tree from the first threat. Doug Still 11:54 Being the hydro line. That was in the 1970s? John McNeil 11:57 That was in the 1970s. And what Dr. Atkins - he brought out a scrapbook and showed me newspaper clippings of the incident that he was prominent in. Dr. Atkins, his story goes something like this, that he became aware that at the time that tree, it was owned by the Ontario government, it was a highway, a provincial highway. The above ground hydro utility that would have been located on a provincial highway would be our provincial utility called at that time, Ontario Hydro. Ontario Hydro is a massive hydro utility that is a distribution and transmission and generation company that supplies electrical power to millions of Ontario residents. So they're a very powerful organization. And they had planned an expansion of their above ground hydro pole line. And by expansion, I mean, that probably meant that they were going to increase the height of the hydro poles and the span of the hydro pole. So it's going to make them taller and bigger, overall taller and fatter, if you will. And so that hydro line happened to be located on the same side of Brontë road as the Brontë oak tree. Doug Still 13:10 They don't want trees anywhere near these lines during storms. Most likely, they're going to be doing some clearing, and Dr. Atkins saw this coming. John McNeil 13:21 Exactly, they're going to be doing a lot of clearing. And so Dr. Atkins, as a concerned citizen, somehow became aware of this proposal. And ultimately, he objected to the proposed design, because he quite correctly saw that it would hammer out a ghastly proportion of the crown of this oak tree, rendering it perhaps a fatal volume. Doug Still 13:48 Right, this 200 year old tree he sees out of his living room window and his porch. John McNeil 13:53 Exactly. And so ultimately, he told me, he ended up petitioning the most senior provincial bureaucrat at that time, which would have been the Minister of Transportation. So we're talking about a cabinet level position. And he wrote to the Minister of Transportation I believe at that time, the gentleman's name was James Snow. We've since had some parkways in the Greater Toronto Area named after him. And James Snow may never have even ventured out to Oakville to see said tree, but Dr. Atkins captured James Snow's attention. And through his efforts of writing to James Snow and documenting at that time it was a prominent tree in its own right, because then even in the 70s, it would have been pushing - it would have been massive of girth, it's some - I'm stretching out my arms beyond as wide as they can and that's a span of at least four or five feet, and it's a massive tree that probably would take, I could imagine, three or five people holding hands to gather around that tree, its massive girth. Its impact on the landscape was very prominent, even then, and Dr. Atkins successfully convinced the Minister of Transportation to intervene. And like I said, you have to appreciate that Ontario Hydro is a massive today multibillion dollar corporation. Enough said it's just a massive Corporation. And so to have changes made in a plan that was likely already approved and paid for, wouldn't have been easy to do. It was almost a David and Goliath story because it was basically Dr. Atkins taking on a Crown Corporation and the provincial government. Doug Still 15:42 Dr. Atkins or Aikens may have been David, but he was a David well versed in the skills of PR. In fact, George Atkins was a radio personality. From 1955 to 1980. He was the farm commentator for CBC Radio and Television out of Toronto. He knew how to reach the right people, and how to tell a convincing story. The threat to the Brontë Oak was featured in the Oakville Beaver, then the Toronto telegram with photos of Dr. Atkins standing next to the tree. Letters of support came in from professors at the University of Toronto and elsewhere. So with his public campaign and the disarming charm that John McNeil later experienced firsthand in his study, I imagined Dr. Atkins had the Minister of Transportation in his hands. John McNeil 16:32 And so Dr. Atkins got the Minister to intervene, get the engineering plans amended, and the line essentially zigzags around the tree untouched. And I'm sure Hydro probably had fits saying you can't take a transmission line and span it over a highway like this. And therefore, none of the branches of the tree were touched. Doug Still 16:59 What did he say? Why did they listen to him? Was it just force of personality? John McNeil 17:04 Well, Dr. Atkins, as I said, was a retired agronomist. He was a scientist, a professional person, and was able I think, to give somewhat knowledgeably, even though his background wasn't in aboriculture or urban forestry, reading between the lines somewhat, probably gave a synopsis of the benefits of the of the tree, at least in terms of the, you know, the basic ecology. And he recognized the value of trees in water conservation, soil conservation, as well as cleaning the air, cooling the air, and stabilizing the soil. Doug Still 17:41 So you've mentioned then, a second controversy regarding this tree. When was that? John McNeil 17:46 Well this, Doug, I neglected to or forgot to talk to you about. And it was brought to my attention by Pete Williams, the fellow forester that I'm encouraging you to make contact with. He's an old friend of mine. It was just a few years before 2006. There was a second, what I call the second threat that I'm aware of, and that's the water line. And it wasn't just any water line. They're talking about a massive aqueduct. Doug Still 18:15 More electricity, more water and bigger roads. The wheels of progress along Brontë Rd. may have been slow in the stagecoach days, but they were turning rather quickly by the beginning of the 21st century. Does progress have to mean fewer trees? [Theme music] We're going to take a break here. When we come back, the utility projects keep coming and the stakes get higher for the Brontë Oak. [Song - Tether, by Sarah Harmer] Pete Williams 19:15 But it was about a two meter diameter pipe that went from Lake Ontario to a reservoir just south of the Town of Milton. All along the Brontë Road. Doug Still 19:27 Pete Williams is a consulting arborist and Principal of Williams and Associates Forestry Consulting. In 2002, a large aqueduct project was being planned by the Regional Municipality to serve the growing population of Oakville and nearby towns. Pete was hired to evaluate all the trees along several kilometers of the aqueduct’s proposed path to determine which could be retained. When he got to the Brontë oak, a neighbor spoke up about its protection once again. It was George Atkins, 30 years after the Hydro Electric affair. Pete was drawn into his vortex. Pete Williams 20:05 I was hired by - I believe it was a landscape architect who was working for either the building contractor or one of the other sub-consultants. So I can't even remember who the primary consultant was, and I could not find the file. So anyway, I was out there doing the survey and I was asked to meet with George Atkins, who was a famous radio - well, among certain circles, a famous radio host, who hosted the Developing Countries Farm Radio Network. I knew of him from his radio show. So he came across the street, and one of his causes was this tree. So we stood there, and while I was evaluating we talked, it was very interesting. And there was a big scar at the base of this tree. It was on the west side, maybe of the old road, it was maybe 100 feet or 120 feet from the road. And there was a big scar on it. Maybe it wasn't that far. You know, I'm old now, so I forget things. [But it was close enough.] It was gonna be disturbed significantly. And so there was a scar at the base of it. And so George and I were talking. I said, “Well, it seems like a pretty healthy tree except for this,” because that's just where a truck ran into it. [wow] I think the scar is pretty much healed over. So we looked at the tree and, and the funny thing was, I called it a bur oak, because I moved here from East Tennessee, and I know what white oak looks like. But down there, the white oak does quite better and has long white plates. Around Huron it's at the edge of its range. And it's not that many of them have those bark characteristics that white oak usually does. And that's really, you know, if I'm just looking at trees, that's how I gauge them. Most of the white oaks anyway, because just bark is very distinctive. So I just called it a bur oak because it was all broken up. And when George received my report, he says that it's not a bur oak, it's a white oak. So I lost some credibility there! But I went by again, I looked way up at the top between a couple of the branches. There were some of those smooth plates. But I said, “Well, George, that's fine. But it won't make any difference in the report except for the spelling.” Doug Still 22:11 That's right. Sounds like he knew everything about that tree. Pete Williams 22:14 Oh, it was a mission. It was right across the road, he had a really nice woodlot that was just on the other side of the road. And he'd lived there for 20, 30 years, it was a bit of a mission with him. They were considering tunneling under the tree. And they wanted to know, the question was, how would that affect the tree? Doug Still 22:32 How far down below the tree? Pete Williams 22:36 The pipe is two meters across. So it is a big pipe. I was kind of scratching my head over this. And then I took my soil auger with me because I knew the area fairly well, that area is right at the top of the old Iroquois Lake, glacial lake you're quite at top of bank, so it was really suspicious. There's a lot of clay soils in the area, but then you get a lot of other material deposited on top of it. So anyway, I took my auger with me and the tree was doing quite well, except for the scar. And so I augered down and there was about a meter or less, you know, somewhere between two and three feet of sand over the clay which explained why the tree was doing so well. Because, you know, it's a perched water table with a lot of rooting space and at that point the tree could send its roots anywhere, because the road was some distance away. There was just an old farmhouse next to it. And it could take advantage of all that water. [Oh, yeah] Cuz you know, it had decent drainage. So it was really a quite good site quality for white oak or almost any tree. Doug Still 23:45 Right, but not necessarily for tunneling. Pete Williams 23:49 Well, actually - what I told them - what happens in Oakville is that there's this red clay that's either a till deposit by the glaciers or it's weathered in place from a shale formation. And then there's the shale below it which you can actually dig through with a backhoe if you're doing something. Doug Still 24:10 Pete isn't only a forester. He has a master's degree in physiography, which is a branch of geology that investigates the surface features of the Earth, including soils, geological movements, weather and other factors, adding to his knowledge of trees. This unique background meant that Pete was the right person at the right time to propose a lifeline for the old tree. Pete Williams 24:34 I said, “Well, here's the deal. I said, “If you can get the pipe below a meter so that the pipe is within that clay zone, you won't affect the tree.” And that's what they did. There was no visible effect of it. So they tunneled from about 70 meters on or about 100 feet on one side, 100 or 150 feet on each side of it. Doug Still Wow, sort of like a dip? Pete Williams Well, the pipe - I'm not sure how much it dipped because I wasn't looking at the engineering drawings or anything. What they did is they excavated up to 150 feet at the tree and tunneled across it. Just putting the pipe from the surface would have been, I don't know - I don't cost these things out - pretty cheap because it's just the excavator time. But tunneling, they suggest that the tunneling itself would have cost $80,000 or $100,000 or something. And I said, “Well, that's great. It's good to keep the tree. It's nice to have big trees.” I said, “Well, what about that other one?” And they said, “That one has to go.” So that was the end of it. Doug Still 25:36 Now, was the tree on their radar already before you brought it to their attention? Pete Wiliams Oh, I didn't bring it to their attention. Doug Still George had already been on it. Pete Williams 25:47 It was a part of the negotiation, and George Atkins had something to do with calling attention to it with the contract. Doug Still 25:56 This time, he didn't need a PR campaign. But he did need to speak up to keep the tree on the radar. Thankfully, Pete was on the job working with other talented engineers. It was a testament to their influence that they convinced a sensitive regional water utility to spend significant change to tunnel under the 200 year old tree. $80 to $100,000 is nothing to sneeze at! But soon after came the biggest capital project of all, and it would take more than just Dr. Atkins to keep the Brontë Oak from coming down. This wasn't over. [Music] This time it was a highway project, and you don't mess with the needs of the automobile. Or do you? Brontë road was to be expanded from two lanes to four. The report for the project stated the beloved tree would not survive and should be removed. I spoke with longtime Council Member Alan Elgar who was in office back in 2006. He questioned the report, and a fight was brewing. How did you first become aware of the Brontë Oak and its importance? Allan Elgar 27:09 Well actually, I'm from a rural area myself, and I just always noticed the old oak tree. I did not realize it was under threat until after, when I was on council when we talked about urbanization, the widening of roads for traffic to flow better. When we received a report saying that the tree only had a 10% chance of survival if in fact, the tree was left there, and the road went around the tree. And of course, on anything, you know, you do the environmental assessment to find out all this information. And we had a consulting company who put the report together which went to Council, which pointed out that the tree has lived almost 250 years, but it's only got a 10% chance of survival for a few more years. Therefore, there's only a 10% chance this tree will survive. [Very upsetting] But you know something? What are you going to do? But I was lucky enough to find another person, Jack Radecky from the City of Toronto, who also was an arborist and in charge of the trees in Toronto at the time. He came out - the tree had excited him and two others to go out and have a look at the tree. Like we couldn't have picked a colder day in February! Doug Still 28:27 That's always how it works… Allan Elgar 28:29 It was brutal. So he came out and they stood and they looked at the tree. And they told me “I'd really like to see the report you're referring to.” I had it with me, I get that kind of stuff when I was meeting with them. So I had it with me. And they said “That's the consultant's report. That's not the arborist report.” And like, here I am thinking it's the report, and they said, “No, can you please get me the arborist report?” Doug Still 28:59 Which they did not include in the other report? Allan Elgar 29:03 No! They summarized it. So anyway, they went back to the region, and they said, “Oh, we'll try and get that for you.” In the meantime, I already called and found the company that did it out of Guelph - Steven Aboud and Associates. I got the report which stated that tree has a 90% chance of survival indefinitely, even if the good roads go around the tree. Doug Still 29:26 Conditional on if the road was adjusted around the tree, correct? Allan Elgar 29:29 Yes. But in the other Council’s report, it wouldn't matter what they did, you know, there's only a 10% chance it's gonna survive, versus the actual arborist saying 90% chance. So that's when the fun began. Doug Still 29:46 I see. What did you do next? Allan Elgar 29:49 Well, the next thing is we tried to stir up interest and we got it to the town. We asked the region to reconsider some of the portion of the environmental assessment, which they did. They got enough votes on council to do that. Doug Still 30:05 And that's when he brought in Joyce Burnelll to testify on the Brontë Oak’s behalf. Allan Elgar 30:11 But you also have an 87 year old woman named Joyce Burnelll who came and spoke at the region, and a very colorful speech she gave to the region. She was the one that convinced the councilors…. Doug Still 30:27 How did she get involved? Allan Elgar 30:29 She got it. I sent out something about the oak tree, and she responded back to me and said, “What you're trying to do - I don't know you, but what you're trying to do, I really like. I like what you're trying to do.” So I said to her, “Ms. Burnell, I think you're probably the only person that can really save this tree, because you could come and speak at Regional Council. I think they will at least listen to you. And she was a teacher all of her life, a school teacher. And she said, “I'll do that.” [That's wonderful] Yeah, it was unbelievably beautiful. When she spoke - who was going to argue with an 87 year old woman that spoke so passionately, and she broke into a song singing “Save our oak, God save our great oak tree” and everything. Doug Still 31:18 What was her general message? Allan Elgar 31:21 That we have to save this tree. It's an important tree. It's historic. There's hardly any left in Oakville at all, they've all been cut down for masts for ships, you know, years and years ago. It was a seedling in 1760, and there is no way this tree should be cut. We have to save it. Doug Still But there was a catch. Allan Elgar But then they came back with, if you want to save the tree, you have to raise $343,000. And that was at a June meeting in 2006. It was also an election year for all municipal and regional councilors, by the way. The Regional Council said, “We will give you until the end of December to raise 343,000, because we weren't going to put that on the taxpayer.” Doug Still 32:12 That’s a very precise number. Allan Elgar 32:15 Very precise, yes, wasn’t it though? [laughs] Right? Very precise. And you're starting at base zero. Doug Still 32:23 They didn't really think that that was possible, did they? Allan Elgar 32:26 Of course not! Like come on. An 87 year old woman, what's she going to do, raise $10,000 or, you know, after everybody comes through? Doug Still 32:34 There's something rotten about that. Allan Elgar 32:37 Well yeah, yes. But if that's, hey, that was - some of the Councilors were laughing around the regional meeting. Doug Still 32:45 Yeah, well, they messed with the wrong 87 year old lady. [theme music] When we come back from a short break, we'll learn what happened next. You're listening to This Old Tree. [Song - Squeaking Voices by Sarah Harmer] Doug Still 33:50 So after she spoke, after that public meeting, what changed? Allan Elgar 33:55 What really changed was everybody that engaged - not just around Oak Hill, but I'm talking in other countries also - were sending emails of support about how important trees were to them. It was different countries across the world. Doug Still 34:13 The fundraising had begun, and the story hit the national media. Letters of support and donations poured in, including from one Royal tree lover across the Atlantic. Allan Elgar 34:27 Then also Prince Charles, who is now the king, sent a letter from Clarence House, saying that he felt that the tree should be protected. [Amazing] The Prince of Wales was indeed very concerned to hear about the threat to one of the few remaining trees in Oakville. Doug Still 34:46 So he heard about it through the news? Allan Elgar 34:49 He heard about it through a lady who lived in Toronto, but knew Prince Charles. So she sent him a fax and that was on October the 19th, 2006. Doug Still 35:03 I remember faxes. Allan Elgar 35:07 Yes, were getting older [both laugh] Doug Still 35:08 And she had a direct fax line to Prince Charles. Allan Elgar 35:12 Yes she did. Yeah. And she took the time to do it. And they sent back a hardcopy letter with the Clarence House logo on it. Doug Still 35:22 Where did the donations come from. All over? Allan Elgar 35:26 Yes. We had schoolkids selling oak leaves. We had a jewelry store downtown Oakville who made gold or silver acorns which they were selling and given the proceeds to this fund. We had it a brewing company in Oakville, which was giving for every beer sold of the Great White Oak beer, and put the label of the tree on it and everything. They gave a buck for every one. And then we also had one donor who, just herself, gave $150,000. Doug Still 36:02 Wow, wow. Anonymously? Allan Elgar 36:05 Yes, it was anonymous at the time. Yes, it was. She said, “I will match whatever you give.” And it was still a little low, so she wrote out a check for $150,000. Doug Still 36:18 Incredible. So that was sort of the Keystone donation? Allan Elgar 36:22 That was absolutely. We had a singer called Sarah Harmer. I'm not sure if you've heard of her down there. but she's a pretty famous singer. She put on a benefit concert for us for free. Every dollar of the proceeds went to saving the oak tree. Doug Still 36:39 This was during that nine month effort. Allan Elgar 36:43 Yep, this was during the effort. And she gave every dollar she made at that concert. We had that through the Oakville - I set that up through the Oakville Art Center. So the money all went through the Oakville Art Center to buy your tickets. So everything was very straightforward, but not $1 went to her. She is one good person. And you know something, from then on we knew we could do it. We figured we'd raised around $270,000 out of the 343. And then the Province and the Region and the town of Oakville threw in the rest to make it work. Doug Still 37:24 Not everyone was pleased that the City was spending this money to save a single tree, based on an article in the National Post in January 2007 entitled “Not all of Oakville Rooting for Old Tree.” Said one constituent, “Realistically, this seems to have more emotional weight than any sort of logical weight…because it is going to be in the middle of a four lane highway. Nobody even thought to talk to the voters.” But it seems most people thought differently. This was a fast moving train, and nothing was going to get in the way of saving the Bronte Oak. To preservationists, the effort touched something deep inside. [theme music] They rerouted the highway around the tree, giving it ample room, forming the island I first told you about. Councilman Elgar spreads the praise. Allan Elgar 38:22 They went around the tree, and that tree is still very much alive today. They got the road up now nicely around the tree, whatever it took. Whatever was their number. It’s the public’s tree, it's the people's tree, as Joyce Burnelll said, and as Renee Sandelowski was another Councilor on Council at the time who was a spark plug behind it too - a true spark plug. She came to speak to Council and Jim Young, another person behind the scenes somewhat, who really supported Joyce Burnell who was the fire…without Joyce, I don't know whether Regional Council would have even given an extra six months to save the tree and raise the money. So… Doug Still 39:09 One really cool thing is that I got a chance to talk to Sarah Harmer about the benefit concert she did with Ohbijou, and chat about environmental activism. She was kind enough to come on the show. I asked her how she first heard about the effort to save the old oak tree. Sarah Harmer 39:25 I think it may have been through Alan Elgar the Councilor. And it could have been through the media, I'm not quite sure. I think I had read about Joyce Burnelll who was the older citizen who had really spearheaded things at the council meeting, and got, I think, a six month window for the community to raise that money. I think my mom might have told me about it or I heard about it in the media or Alan I can't quite remember. But it came to my attention for sure. Doug Still 39:59 Do you live nearby? Where are you? Sarah Harmer 40:03 Yeah, I now live in Kingston, Ontario, which is on the east end of Lake Ontario and Oakville is kind of at the west end of the lake. They’re about three hours apart. But I grew up near Oakville in North Burlington. So I was spending a lot of time there with my family and working on other environmental issues. It's a very populated area, so it has a lot of pressures on it as far as protecting the natural landscape. It’s vulnerable there. So I've been working on a big gravel mining issue. I had been spending a lot of time in the area, but I live three hours away. Doug Still 40:37 Is that the Niagara Escarpment? Sarah Harmer Yes. Doug Still Yeah, I know you were involved in that, bringing attention to that issue. Could you describe it a little bit? Sarah Harmer 40:47 Oh I would love to. Yeah, the Niagara Escarpment is a big ridge corridor, it runs for 700 or more kilometers from Niagara Falls all the way up. It kind of peters out around Chicago, so it actually goes into the states as well. It's been historically hard to develop because it is a big, rocky cliff face and escarpment corridor. It's got something like, I don't know how many, a large percentage of our endangered and threatened species. It's got ancient forests, white cedars that are older than any other tree east of the Rocky Mountains. You know, it's really ancient ecosystems up there. It's also very coveted by the gravel mining industry because the rock is close to the surface. And it's close to market. So I was working…unfortunately, it's kind of a zombie quarry application. So we defeated it, after eight years of building the science and fighting at a big hearing. Doug Still 41:50 Now you started a nonprofit? Sarah Harmer 41:52 Yeah, we started a community group called PERL - Protecting Escarpment Rural Land - which was just a bunch of volunteers who had never really done that kind of work before. Just like there are so many community groups around the world, trying to figure out how decisions get made and trying to be involved. And so the quarry was dismissed by the Province. They found it to be a bad idea for the endangered species and the water. Unfortunately, only six years or so after that decision. Lafarge, the company, has come back and they're trying again. They've reapplied for some of the exact same land. So right now, we're back in the same bad, bad nightmare of once again, having to raise all the money, and science, and re-litigate the whole blinkin’ thing. Doug Still 42:40 I know you wrote a song called Escarpment Blues, which is a great song. But now you're gonna have to write another song. Sarah Harmer 42:47 I know. That's it. [both chuckle] It’s Escarpment Blues, times two. Doug Still 42:51 Right, right. But Sarah also found time to support the Brontë Oak. Sarah Harmer 42:57 One little thing, you know, at the time when it came to my attention, my album “I'm a Mountain” was nominated for a Polaris Award, which is a music award in Canada. And the award winnings if you won the award, was a $20,000 prize. I was interviewed and asked what I would do if I won, what I would do with that $20,000. And I said, a little bit flippantly, but I kind of said, “I would donate it to the white oak in Oakville.” And a guy who was in another band called Ohbijou, who was also nominated for the Polaris award, read that interview and said, “I know that tree. My grandfather, George Atkins taught me how to play chess under that tree.” [Wow] And contacted me and said, “We should do something.” And I said, “Yeah, let's do a show.” Doug Still 43:51 His name keeps coming up, George Atkins. Sarah Harmer 43:54 Well, he came to the show, which we did. We put on a fundraiser concert in the afternoon, right by the tree. It's at the regional auditorium. It was like in a school gym, kind of vibe. And George Atkins was there, I hadn't met him. But my mom and dad were there as well. And my dad told me about being - my dad's in his 90’s now, but he was a farmer. And he said, at lunchtime he and his brothers would come in and listen to CBC Farm Radio at their lunch hour. And it would be George Atkins who was a broadcaster about farming know-how. And so I got to meet him that day and he, yeah, he was Ryan Carly's grandfather, and he had, I think, owned the land that the the region had at one point expropriated. But he had made a deal with them back in the 70’s, as far as I understand, to always protect this ancient tree. Doug Still 44:52 That's fantastic. It's a small world, right? Sarah Harmer 44:54 Yeah, Canada is a huge country, but it's a small population. So there often is a lot of crossover. Doug Still 45:00 Who performed at the concert? Sarah Harmer 45:03 So Ohbijou was the first band, and then myself and my band. So we kind of did a stripped-down thing because it was in a gym. You know, I don't know if we had any lights it was a pretty modest production, but it was a great crowd. And then after the show, I was playing with my friend Spencer Evans who plays clarinet and piano, and he's a real Pied Piper and he led everyone out, playing his clarinet. He led everyone out from the regional hall there to the tree. And we all did a - someone who was up from the local paper in a cherry picker, and they did a photo of us all. Doug Still 45:50 I love it. I’ll have to find that photo. Sarah Harmer 45:53 Yes, it was the Oakville Beaver, I believe is the name of the paper. Doug Still 45:57 Have you ever written a song about a tree? Sarah Harmer 46:01 That's a good question. I don't think I have. [Doug chuckles] And man, I'm a huge, I'm a huge tree hugger. I love I love planting them. I love admiring them. Doug Still 46:13 Why are trees important to you? Sarah Harmer 46:17 They're there other beings, you know, they're so… I mean, I grew up on a big farm on an old farm. And so we have a lot of big maples. And you know, they're rooted in time they - I’m a nostalgic person I think by nature. So I love to imagine kind of what things were like 100 years ago when you're next to an old tree. You can feel that it has a sense of that. But you know, it's one of those things at the time it was very daunting, the amount of money - I think we raised about $12,000 at our concert. [fantastic] A bit of a drop in the bucket next to 343. But you just never know. Doug Still 47:00 Well, you raised awareness. So you don't really know how much you raised because of the concert right? Sarah Harmer 47:07 Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, you don't know when you're looking at it from the other side. It's a joy now. I drive by it regularly - it's kind of a slightly out of my way to get up to my folks. But I often make that route just to give it a hello. I'm looking at it right now, because I have a pencil drawing of it here in my kitchen. A woman named Betty Goodfellow - I think it was her name - and as part of the fundraiser she had done a sketch of it without its leaves, a wintertime sketch. Doug Still 47:42 Well, thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. It's been lovely talking to you. Sarah Harmer 47:46 Hey, my pleasure. Thank you so much Doug. I can look forward to listening to the final product. Doug Still 47:52 And good luck with preserving the Niagara Escarpment. Sarah Harmer 47:56 Thank you very much. We need a lot of luck. Doug Still 48:00 I also asked my other guests why they thought the Bronte Oak has been so important to the people of Oakville and the surrounding area all these years. John McNeil 48:10 I think the tree is a symbol of the town spirit. And it is a strongly held spirit and I believe a sincere spirit. There's a respect for the urban forest and things of nature held by the majority of the citizens of Oakville. Doug Still 48:27 Do you think there's anything distinctly Canadian about the story of the Brontë Oak surviving all these threats John McNeil 48:33 Well, no blood was shed. Nobody was violent. In that sense. It probably was a polite discussion. [both laugh] Even though there were a few tempers raised at times. Let's say it was a polite debate. That’s probably uniquely Canadian. Doug Still 48:49 What do you think about when you drive by the Brontë Oak now. What comes to mind? John McNeil 48:55 Well first off, just a sense of pride. There’s a sense of pride for having been part of that and helped to, in some way, small way contribute towards building that and sustaining that. And I also think of Dr. Atkins. Pete Williams 49:09 I suspect there's a few individuals that were its champion. Like George Atkins, for example. I know he was very… that was before it was really popular to do that kind of, you know, like, it wasn't as rah rah as it is these days. So he was successful in drawing attention to it and rallying some support. And I imagine Allen Elgar was involved in it as well. But I mean, it took somebody - people, to like rattle a couple of doors to actually draw the attention to it, and then more people joined in on it. Doug Still 49:42 What do you think of when you drive by it now? Pete Williams 49:44 I go, “Nice lookin’ tree. That's lucky, a lucky one” You know, because, like I said, if you're rolling the dice, they all had to fall in its favor for it to stay. Allan Elgar 49:56 I think one of the reasons is because where it’s situated, where people drive by it every day. Now it's almost like a monument, it's kind of like a landmark in that area for sure. In my life I've never seen so many engaged people from all aspects of life. Doug Still 50:16 What goes through your mind when you drive by the tree now? Allan Elgar 50:20 I just, I just smile, when I see it looking at me. [laughs] My next concern Brontë Oak widening from two lanes on each side to three lanes on each side. Doug Still 50:31 That's coming up. Allan Elgar 50:32 Yes, it is. And that's it. That's another concern I have going forward with the street. Doug Still 50:37 I can honestly say there's no construction damage or danger that's going to happen to the tree. Allan Elgar 50:43 I hope you're right. [both laugh] We need people to stand up. I remember a New York University professor who said, “People should not live above the treeline.” He said, “If you're above the tree line by very much you're not associated with the ground, and people should stay grounded.” Doug Still 51:13 Was it worth $343,000 to save the Brontë Oak tree? I think so, but I'm biased. Prince Charles thought so. And Sarah Harmer thought so. Most importantly, the people of Oakville felt it was important. The tree is a link to the past, a living piece of environmental heritage. To them it is a symbol that suggests we can save the world if we try. I'd like to thank my wonderful guests John McNeil, Pete Williams, Alan Elgar, and Sarah Harmer. And thank you listeners for tuning into the show, once again. You can find links and credits in the show notes and I'll be posting photos on Facebook and Instagram. See you next time. I'm Doug Still, and this has been This Old Tree [Theme song - This Old Tree by Dee Lee] [Song - The Ring by Sarah Harmer] This Old Tree with Doug Still
The First 9/11 Survivor Trees (Transcript) Season 1, Episode Published October 22, 2022 Doug Still: 0:00 The Survivor Tree is a callery pear tree that was rescued from the rubble at Ground Zero about a month after the 9/11 terrorist attack. It was a ragged trunk when they found it, but it was nursed back to health by New York City Parks Department horticulturalists and eventually planted back at the site as part of the 9/11 Memorial and Museum. It has been visited by literally millions of people who have come to pay their respects and remember the victims of that day. The tree has become a well known and stirring symbol of resilience and survival. But what few people remember is that there were six other trees rescued from the site and transplanted in early October of 2001. I know, because I was part of the team that found them. I was with Bram Gunther, my friend and at the time my boss with the City's Central Forestry and Horticulture Division. Coming up, I recount with him the day we visited the World Trade Center site, what we saw, how and where these remarkable trees were moved, and what has become of them. Thanks for joining in. I'm your host, Doug Still, and this is This Old Tree. This Old Tree theme song - Dee Lee: 1:08 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me, about what it's like to be this old tree... Doug Still: 1:27 So yeah, I was a New Yorker for many years before I moved to Providence in 2005. Everyone that lived in the city on 9/11 has their own story from that day - where they were and how they were affected. There was so much trauma and tragedy, and all of us were shocked and shaken. But I remember having a funny feeling in the days and weeks following the attacks, even as reality sunk in for the families who lost loved ones, as first responders continued to risk their lives searching through the rubble and securing the site for our city, and crews put their health on the line clearing debris. An inconsequential feeling to anyone but me perhaps. But to be honest, I didn't know anyone directly affected by the terrorist attack, or involved in the ensuing recovery efforts. New York is a big city, and frankly, all I could do was follow the events on TV and on the radio. I lived in Brooklyn and worked in Queens, and frankly, I don't think I even set foot in Manhattan for weeks. I remember sort of feeling like a spectator, a feeling that stopped short of guilt, but was definitely a sense of disconnect. I remember attending a professional conference for the Society of Municipal Arborists late that September in the Midwest, and in a touching moment the whole assembly stood and applauded for me, recognizing that I was from New York City, and to show their solidarity. It was a wonderful thing to do, and I recognize that it wasn't really about me. But all I could think was, "I didn't do anything. I don't deserve this." But when I got home, a small small chance to contribute something appeared. Here's my interview with Bram Gunther, as we recall our visit to Ground Zero. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 3:08 [Music] Doug Still: 3:12 It's October 11, 2022, and I'm in New York City with my friend and former boss, Bram Gunther. Thank you for being here today, Bram, Bram Gunther: 3:22 You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Doug Still: 3:23 I think we last saw each other in person at a conference in Los Angeles about 10 years ago. I can't remember what the conference was, but we escaped a few sessions or one session anyway, and went to your room. And you brought out a little folding guitar that you travel with, and that you wanted to sing me a song or two. You remember that? Bram Gunther: 3:46 I do. That guitar is now here in this apartment, as it was given to my son. Doug Still: 3:51 Yes, we are now in Bram's son's apartment in New York City in the Upper West Side. And it's nice to be back in New York. Bram Gunther: 4:00 And it's nice to see you. Doug Still: 4:01 But we're here today to reconstruct and remember our visit to the World Trade Center site, about a month after 9/11, almost exactly 21 years ago. I don't remember exactly what the date was, but I think it was probably about four weeks or so... to look at some trees that were reported to have survived. At that time. I was the Deputy Director of Street Tree Planting in the Central Forestry Division of the New York City Parks Department. And you were... Bram Gunther: 4:31 I had originally said I was the Deputy Director of the whole division, but now I'm thinking I was probably the Director and Fiona was the Chief. Doug Still: 4:41 You were the Director at the time. But we had a management team that worked very closely, not only on tree planting and increasing the city's tree canopy, but on a lot of projects that had broader impact on the urban forest. It included Fiona Watt who was the Chief of Forestry, Jennifer Greenfield who ran the New York Tree Trust at the time, and she is now... could you repeat her title? Bram Gunther: 5:05 She is now Deputy Commissioner. Doug Still: 5:08 And also Barbara Nickels, who was the Director of Street Tree Planting Bram Gunther: 5:13 Who is now Deputy Chief. Doug Still: 5:15 Deputy Chief, great for her. But the day we went to the World Trade Center site was three or four weeks after 9/11. And I believe, you know, the human rescue effort had shifted more towards a recovery phase and they were doing environmental assessment at the time. And so just looking back, we then got word or instructions from the Commissioner of Parks to make a visit. Bram Gunther: 5:46 Yeah, his name was Henry Stern. And he was interested because he was privy to some of the information that was coming from the pit, which is what I think they called it. And he probably heard some of the folks down there saw some trees. And so he reached out initially to me, and said, "Dogwood," - we all had nicknames. Doug Still: 6:13 We all had a Park nickname. Bram Gunther: 6:15 Park nicknames, and he was StarQuest, the Commissioner Henry Stern, and I was Dogwood. And you were? Doug Still: 6:22 I was Slugfest. Bram Gunther: 6:24 Why Slugfest? Doug Still: 6:26 I was Slugfest I had... well, he gave you the opportunity to choose your name. And that was my email handle because "Doug" rhymes with "slug" and my friends would call me Slug, Slugga, slugfest. So I just use that and transferred that. StarQuest - what is the meaning behind StarQuest? Bram Gunther: 6:49 "Stern" is "star" in German, and "quest" represents his consistent questioning of things in general - staff, colleagues, existentialism [laughs]. And I should just say, since you told the story of your name, I also got an hour in a meeting to choose my name, and I knew at that point that some names that he chose for people were not so flattering. So I was like, I need to think of a good name. [that's right] And at that time, my favorite tree was a dogwood. Doug Still: 7:28 Perfect. [laughs] We all had badges, and these were included in a book that an assistant for StarQuest would carry around and he would refer to. But, prior to that, the city and our country was in a strange state, as we were recovering from this terrorist attack. And I remember, just looking back a few weeks earlier on 9/11, I was in my apartment in Park Slope in Brooklyn. That morning, I didn't go in to work. I was moving that upcoming weekend, and I was donating a desk to the office. And someone from the office was coming by in a truck to pick up the desk, and he was late. So I called the office to find out why and I was told, you know, they don't know why he might be late, but maybe it's because of the plane that just hit the World Trade Center building. And I sort of brushed that off. I didn't know what that meant. And I said, hmm, and I went to my television which broadcast from the top of the World Trade Center, my signal. No signal. And I got concerned and then I turned on the radio and it all unfolded, and I learned about it there. And then didn't go into work, I think, for a few days because the subways weren't running and things sort of, you know, closed down. I do remember that afternoon going out in my neighborhood in Park Slope, and it was a beautiful, calm day, blue sky, and there were bits of paper falling out of the sky. Really upsetting. Do you remember what your experience was on 9/11? Bram Gunther: 9:18 I do, in broad strokes. My son had been born just a few months earlier, at the end of July. And so my wife and I, we were living in the Bronx then. And so I was feeling particularly optimistic about the world at that moment because I had a brand new baby at home. And that morning I had left the Bronx. I do want to say again, that my memory's not 100% about that day, but I trust it by and large. And I think I started the day at the citywide nursery. And as you said before, even though our division was called Central Forestry, we are actually, at that point, Central Forestry and Horticulture, because recently we had taken on horticulture to oversee operations and best practices across the city. In the same way that we were both responsible for planting street trees, but also developing best practices. And in having horticulture added to the title of the division, we took upon the management of what was called and still is called the Citywide Nursery, which is in the northeast section of Van Cortlandt Park. On the TV, with some of the gardeners and horticulturalists there, we watched I think the first building go down, or maybe both. And I remember just feeling sick to my stomach, in part because my mom for 15 years, her office was on the 77th floor. So I just had this eerie feeling that if she hadn't retired a few years before, that was going to be it for her. And my oldest friend in life worked on the 70th something floor of World Trade Center either one or two, and I was worrying about him. But instead of going home, I left the Citywide Nursery and made my way to our office, which was in Flushing Meadows Park in Queens, because I felt that in my position I needed to be there to help support the staff, both manage their feelings and manage their logistics. Doug Still: 11:49 Right, just getting home. My partner walked from midtown Manhattan all the way across the Brooklyn Bridge, just to get home that day. Bram Gunther: 11:59 Wow. So bridges feature in my story of that day. So I eventually went across the Whitestone Bridge, and I could see the flames and the smoke coming from downtown Manhattan. And I again, I just felt physically sick. [yeah] I didn't know emotionally what to make of it yet. But physically, I was sick. Doug Still: 12:24 I remember a lot of fear that day too, what's going to happen next. Bram Gunther: 12:27 Yeah, I had that fear of myself. worrying that there were other targets. Because Manhattan is filled with really tall buildings. Not all, except for the Empire State Building, none really that high. But I was filled with fear too. And I should just say, as a coda to that story, that my good friend Adam, who I'd known since birth, who worked in the World Trade Center, was perennially late. And he was typically late. So, it's a month later, and as I had said, they're doing work that day. And so by that point, the first building had been hit. Then he was told to just go home. And that saved his life, being late. [wow, wow] And that really, really haunted me. environmental assessments. And this call is made from StarQuest to you to go investigate, what, what can be seen down in the pit or nearby. And so you came to me, and asked if I would go. And I also asked somebody else in the division to come with me, this woman who at this point had taken over from me heading up a Greenstreets Program, which was putting gardens in the right of way where there was unused space. So a mass public gardening program. Because I knew that there were some new Greenstreets in the area, and I wanted her to look at them to get a sense of how, if they could survive or not. What's funny about that moment is, so the three of us eventually got into a Parks Department car, headed from the borough of Queens down to Lower Manhattan. But she was pregnant that day, and she was under strong advisement from her husband not to breathe and what we now know was chemical laden air. So she ended up staying most of the time in the vehicle [that was a good warning] as you and I went into the pit. Doug Still: 14:48 Right. And that was the first time, after all that time watching this on TV, that I'd really gotten close, and it really affected me in a sort of "eyes on" way, a real way. So I remember parking near the church on lower Broadway, [Trinity] Trinity Church, and walking through the park there along the side of the church. And the first thing that I noticed is that the trees, I think their London plane trees, are coated with ash on one side, on the World Trade Center side of the trees. So coming from the west. And so then I can only imagine what that plume of debris was like. Do you remember walking through there? Bram Gunther: 15:41 I do. I remember that pretty lucidly. I remember the ash as you've just described it. I remember the ash on one side of those trees and not the other side, which really stood out. And for some reason, my first thought when I got out of the car, is this is Vesuvius. It was a volcano. And it was just our crazy, violent terrorist version of it. And that was the only way I could make sense of it in my head. Doug Still: 16:16 It looked like that. Bram Gunther: 16:17 It looked like that. Doug Still: 16:18 Yeah. And so we arrived at the site, and we needed hard hats and masks. And I remember the staging site, or at least one office where we got those things, was on the second floor of a building, sort of right along the south east corner of the World Trade Center site, but across the street. It was a Burger King. Bram Gunther: 16:43 Yes, I remember that too. And it was upstairs, and it felt like we were on the inside, right, because the people coming in and out were the people working in the pit. But I know that I myself also felt like an outsider at the same time, because these people were there... Doug Still: 17:07 I felt like an outsider. Bram Gunther: 17:09 Right. Insider, in that we were both working for the City, [right] and this was a City effort, and this was an attack on our city. So that made me, and I'm also born and raised in Manhattan. So I feel very at home in Manhattan, but an outsider when it came to the fraternity of people -fraternity, sorority - of people that had been there since day one, and had to experience the horrors directly [right] that you and I didn't have to see. Doug Still: 17:44 Do you remember getting clearance for that? Or how did we get in? Bram Gunther: 17:48 Clearance was given to us through the Commissioner's office at the Parks department with the other agency - I can't remember which agency it was - that was mainly responsible for coordinating. And it could have been DCAS, which stands for Department of Citywide Services, I think. [okay] But it could have been another sort of overarching agency. And they checked us on a ledger as we were headed upstairs to the second floor of the Burger King. Doug Still: 18:28 So then we descended, we went into the pit, [Yeah] and we were right near, was that building number seven with the plaza that had the trees? Bram Gunther: 18:40 Oh, you mean where we found the trees? [Yes] It might have been building seven. But it was on the northeast side, and we entered on the southern side. And we walked through the pit. And I can't obviously speak for you, but we were not talking to each other then partly because we had gas masks on, but I remember looking leaning over and looking into the pit. I didn't see any human remains. Doug Still: 19:11 We were, like, walking along the edge of the pit. Bram Gunther: 19:12 We were walking along the edge of the pit. [Yeah] But I remember seeing the remains of all the things that had been in the way, including these two buildings, which had featured in my life, as I mentioned, because my mom worked there. And then getting this, you know, understanding that there were human remains there just a few days ago. I think they were still there. We just didn't see them directly. And again, feeling so sick to my stomach and not understanding what to make of this. Except that I had a purpose, we both had a purpose, and that the more I focused on that purpose, the easier it was to manage my emotions when I was there. Doug Still: 19:59 I think there was little talking, when we walked out, it felt very, very solemn. The seriousness of the event really took hold again, you know, going there in person. And we saw these trees. [Yep] We saw some green. Bram Gunther: 20:19 Unbelievably enough, we did. Doug Still: 20:21 There were six. That's what you thought. Bram Gunther: 20:22 There were six trees. And I remember thinking Yeah. Three pears, and three littleleaf lindens as when we first got to the trees, and so we were a little bit away from the epicenter of the pit, if I can put it that way. [right] And my first thought was, if I had been on the plaza at that moment, and I was hugging one of these trees, I probably would have survived, because these trees were unscathed. Don't know why that thought came to my head, but I have never forgotten that. ID'd by you, because I could tell the pears but, and I knew they were lindens. But I wasn't good enough with my tree identification. Doug Still: 21:10 So we identified three callery pear trees and three littleleaf linden trees that were in the plaza. Yeah, they're, I mean, they have very similar leaves, and there they were standing among the rubble. And I remember the building sort of.. part of the frontage of the building was still there, [mm hm] but sort of jagged. Bram Gunther: 21:30 Yep, or mauled is the word that I had used to myself then. The building has been mauled. Again, not sure why that word popped up, but... Doug Still: 21:41 But it was incredible that the trees weren't snapped. You know, that nothing had fallen on them. [Yeah] They just withstood this incredible billowing of air and ash and debris that the trees a few blocks away at Trinity Church had absorbed, or at least the sides of them had. Bram Gunther: 22:03 Or the other trees on the plaza had been disintegrated. And yet these trees were okay. [Right] And of all the shrapnel, if that's the right word, of the explosion also didn't hit these six particular trees. They just flew around or over or passed it. But these guys were okay. Doug Still: 22:25 Now, the Survivor Tree that was grown at the nursery and transplanted to the Memorial Site now... we didn't see that tree. Bram Gunther: 22:36 Not on that day, no. That tree was discovered by some landscape architects. I don't know if they were Parks landscape architects or not, I can't remember, but some landscape architects who discovered it. I eventually saw it and it was mangled. And when I first saw it, I said there's no way we can resuscitate this decapitated tree. But it had taken on a lot of meaning to a set of people that were working in the pit day after day. And a colleague at the Parks Department who had been there, had volunteered his time. So he had been there regularly, and said, "Please, you got to do something." And they were only appealing to me, because very recently, we had gotten the Citywide Nursery in the Bronx, which is where I had started my day on 9/11. [Right] So we suddenly had the resources, where eight months ago, we were not managing the Citywide Nursery, so it would never have come to me. But it did, and how can I deny that right? We were to do our best. And I remember the day it was sort of taken out, it was sort of soldered. And I think I don't know if it was literally, but it the concrete or the brick of the building or whatever it was, the material had sort of made, it was integrated or assimilated into the trunk of the tree. [incredible] So we cut it apart, and then it went up to the Citywide Nursery and the men and the women at the Citywide Nursery, they understood the meaning of this tree, and boy did they give it some TLC. Doug Still: 24:23 That was after the six had been transplanted [yeah] near City Hall. Bram Gunther: 24:28 If I remember the chronology correctly, it was after we had taken out and transplanted the six trees that you and I found. Doug Still: 24:38 So it's funny, nowadays we would have had our phones out. We would have taken pictures of all of this. We did not carry cell phones in 2001, at least I didn't. [I didn't either] We had beepers. [both laugh] So all of this is just relegated to our memory really. Bram Gunther: 24:59 But I also think there was a prohibition against photographs in the pit. [I see] I can't say that for sure. But I'm pretty sure I remember it correctly that, you know, people with cameras were just asked to leave their cameras. Doug Still: 25:12 And this is where my memory really begins to fail me. At what point did we think we could save those trees? We could move those trees? Was it right on site? Was it during the drive back? Was it doing a debrief when we returned to the office? Bram Gunther: 25:34 It's a very good question, and I don't have a definitive answer. [Yeah] I do know that you and I looked at each other when we saw those trees, and it was a look of recognition that these trees at this moment in time when we were looking at them seemed okay. But I don't remember when the decision was made definitively, but it was soon [right] because we had to act. Maybe we didn't, you know, maybe it was someone else, or it was part of a discussion later that the trees could be transplanted. But mostly, we reported that they were alive, and were relatively intact. Right. And that message went back to Henry Stern, aka StarQuest. So my sense is that you and I have probably said to each other, "Betchya these trees are okay." But he definitely said, "Move them." [Gotcha] And so we had to find a site soon after for them to go to. Doug Still: 26:33 So how did that develop? Bram Gunther: 26:34 I knew you were going to ask me this question, and I cannot remember who identified - and it could have been me, but I don't know - this triangle directly east of City Hall, at the entrance to the Brooklyn Bridge, as a place for these trees to go. I remembered vaguely that there was a tree planted in that site as a memorial remembrance to the Oklahoma City bombing. So perhaps, the person who suggested that that memorial tree go in that spot, made the connection with the trees that were going to come from the World Trade Center, but I don't remember exactly how that spot was chosen. But it was. And it had meaning because it was right across from City Hall., so it was sort of remembering both the history of the City and then this incredible, horrifying, unique moment. Doug Still: 27:39 Now were you in charge of organizing that planting? Bram Gunther: 27:44 I was. I was in charge through the power that I had at the Parks Department that oversaw in general, green spaces and policy for trees. Didn't mean that the Parks Department managed all the public trees, but we were the ones who sort of set policy. But it was done through that. The removal of the trees, the moving of them from the west side to the east side, and the planting of them was done through an existing contract through the agency that was in charge of this whole effort. Doug Still: 28:29 I see. So it wasn't a Parks Department contractor. Bram Gunther: 28:33 It was not. So it was their contract. I was just there to supervise because I knew enough about what it would take to take the trees out, and increase the potential that they would survive, and what they needed on the other end. So I was there supervising in that capacity. Doug Still: 28:56 Were they planted by November, do you remember? Bram Gunther: 29:02 Oh, absolutely. By November, Doug Still: 29:04 So it was by the end of October. Bram Gunther: 29:06 I think it was actually mid October. Doug Still: 29:08 That moved pretty quickly. Bram Gunther: 29:10 It moved very quickly because [we had to] we were up against the deadline, I remember. Because they wanted to take...first of all, they thought building seven, if it was building seven, but I think you are right. It was either building seven or five. [Okay] People thought it might fall down at any moment. [Right] And if it didn't, they were going to take it down anyway. So we were under a deadline to get those trees out. So I remember working relatively quickly. So I think it was mid... second or third week of October. We were told by StarQuest, "Move quickly." Doug Still: 29:46 Was there a ceremony? Bram Gunther: 29:49 There was not a ceremony the day that we transplanted them. But there was a ceremony soon after, because the commissioners started a program called Living Memorials. You know, and at this point, if you - you the audience - and I remember the Mayor then was Mayor Giuliani. But in the election in November, it transferred to Mayor Bloomberg, Mayor Michael Bloomberg. But Giuliani had initially petitioned first for a whole other term, because he had said look, this started on my watch. At that point, he was known as America's mayor. So he was arguing that he needed another term to manage this. Bloomberg said no, but he did say yes to delaying taking office. I don't remember how long, but the Living Memorial ultimately was under Bloomberg, and that there was some celebration at some point. I don't remember when it was. Doug Still: 31:07 Gotcha. That was something I was not involved in. Bram Gunther: 31:11 Although I think you were there for the event. Maybe not. I was not [Okay] Yeah. And it was within the Parks Department's responsibility to care for the trees after and water them and make sure that they survived? Yes, yes, and let me just backtrack a little bit, because I think it's an interesting part of the story. Tree spades were used. These were not huge trees, but we, me and other people were talking to determine what was going to be the best way to transplant them. And so the concrete and the rubble was dug out around it, and then a tree spade, which I had never seen performed before. I knew they existed. Doug Still: 32:00 So they had backhoes that came in and sort of cleared a path for the spade, a truck with spade to get in. And then dig them out. Bram Gunther: 32:07 That's right. That's right. And I, it was the first time I had That's good. [both laugh] Well, you do carry that authority. seen directly with my own eyes, a tree spade in action. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And then the other part that I remember is, as the truck was leaving the truck that was carrying these six trees, the people in the pit that had been working and saw this whole thing started both cheering and crying. [Wow] And I started crying myself, I was in the back of the truck -oh no, I was in a parked vehicle following the truck. And then it left and I had so impressed upon these contractors, that were not landscape contractors. Right? [right] I impressed upon them so much, that if you know, wind burn, and being gentle. So they drove from the west side of downtown Manhattan to the east side of downtown Manhattan at five miles an hour. And we were just going so slowly, and I think they were so worried that the trees that they had just taken out with a tree spade were then going to die on their watch in the truck. So they just went five miles an hour, and I was, I did at that moment in time. Yes. [both laugh] sort of laughing to myself. Well, I guess they really heard me. Doug Still: 33:38 Can you describe what it was like when the trees were planted? Bram Gunther: 33:41 We get to the site, and there's clearly enough space for these trees. Do you remember how big they were? Do you remember the size? I'm not sure I remember. Doug Still: 33:51 They must have been 12 or 14 feet tall. Bram Gunther: 33:55 Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right to me. And we laid them out. I demanded everything was done by hand. And so they were digging these pits. And I remember, it's a little tangent, but it's worth telling, that this one - probably was a gardener title - he was so strong, and he works so quickly, that he ended up taking these huge pits. We're talking about a 12 to 14 feet tree that can have a pretty reasonable sized root ball. And he dug them all by himself because he just was that good at it. And I had demanded that it be as I said, be done by hand. I was just so nervous. So when the last tree was being put in the ground, and we were filling the tree pit with soil, we all said a kind of prayer to ourselves, not out loud, around that last tree and then they were in the ground. [Music] Doug Still: 35:02 The survivor tree that we all know now, which was almost basically a stump [right] that was taken out. That was not plantable. Bram Gunther: 35:13 That was not at all. Doug Still: 35:15 and as you described had become a favorite among the workers there. That was brought to the Bronx to the nursery. And planted? Bram Gunther: 35:26 It was at first... I wasn't in charge of its rehabilitation. I think at first, it was brought into a greenhouse, and they tended to it [I see] in whatever way they did. But ultimately, it was planted in an open spot. Once they saw that there was some life left in it, and it was growing again, it was planted in a very certain spot. Then they put up their own handmade memorial sign in front of it. Doug Still: 36:02 It's probably mid-fall sometime they brought it in, put it in a greenhouse. [Yeah] Perhaps for the winter. Bram Gunther: 36:09 Could be, I can't guarantee you that I remember that exactly. Doug Still: 36:13 Who was in charge at that time. Bram Gunther: 36:15 It was a man named Bobby Cipolla, who was an incredible horticulturalist. And his, one of the workers on the staff was a man named Richie Cabo, who was my friend, and ultimately took over for Bobby when he retired. And those two men in particular really are the ones who took responsibility for that tree. Doug Still: 36:41 How long did it stay up at the nursery? Bram Gunther: 36:44 Twelve to fifteen years? I could be off a few years, maybe it was... Doug Still: 36:50 So at least a decade. Bram Gunther: 36:51 ...at least a decade. Yeah. It needed TLC, right. But it so was at least a decade and city officials by and large forgot about it. We had not, because it became, you know, a symbol of sort of hope and reparation for us, because the tree just loved the TLC that it was getting. But at one point, the 9/11 Memorial, which was both an organization as well as a sort of museum, but it was mainly an organization to put the pieces of that day and that time together. Doug Still: 37:37 That took some time. Bram Gunther: 37:39 That took some time. They found out, I don't remember how, they found out that the tree was up at the Citywide Nursery. And they reached out to the then Commissioner, who I think was Adrian Benepe at the time, and said, look, we would like to have it come back to the plaza. We're almost done repairing it. And even though it was hard for the people at the Citywide Nursery to let it go, they understood that that's where it needs to be. Doug Still: 38:07 Amazing. Amazing. And it's become world famous, really, the Survivor Tree. Numerous stories about it and, I just hope people don't forget the six trees that we found. Bram Gunther: 38:20 I think most people have forgotten them, which is why we're bringing them back to life now with this interview. That Survivor Tree became so popular, I think at one point, I had counted that there were over 50 requests for interviews. But everyone forgot about those six other trees. Doug Still: 38:41 What do you think people find most inspiring about the Survivor Tree? And by extension, these other six Bram Gunther: 38:49 It's a great question. Humans have turned to trees? plant life, but in particular trees throughout our existence, to help us memorialize traumatic or happy things in our life that we want the generations beyond us to remember. Doug Still: 39:12 They span the generations. Bram Gunther: 39:14 That's right. So I think that is sort of built into us. Historically, I'm not gonna say genetically, but historically. So there was that remembrance, physical, tangible remembrance, spanning the generations, as you just said. Doug Still: 39:31 And I think what's different about these is that they weren't planted as memorial trees. They were survivors. They were actual trees at the site and made it through and I think that's inspiring. Bram Gunther: 39:44 Yeah, that I don't need to add to that. I think the fact that they were survivors, was incredibly important to the people of the City in general, and especially the people who had been toiling in the pit. And even though we could not speak their language, the fact that they had witnessed and survived was extremely and emotionally important to the City of New York, and then ultimately the world. Doug Still: 40:12 I was thinking about this on the drive in today, and there's another aspect of it, I think, that intrigues people. And that's just sort of the randomness of it. That's sort of the beauty of randomness. [Yeah] That they could have been crushed, but they weren't, you know, we think of other tragedies or events where some people made it through and others didn't, or some things survived in airplane accidents, or something like that. And it's always remarkable, I think, to think about that. And so I think these trees kind of fit that mold, in a way, like, "Wow, how did they survive that?" Bram Gunther: 41:01 I agree completely. And don't really have anything to add to it. But it is, it's a strong feeling, to want to support survivors. Doug Still: 41:13 One thing...throughout my career, you know, I planted and I've overseen the planting of tens of thousands of trees. And, as you know, urban trees have a tough life. Just every day, yeah, surviving the compaction and salt, and vandalism and cars running into them. Every once in a while, we lose one of the trees we plant. And it's always satisfying to, incredibly rewarding to plant trees and see them grow. But there's sort of an extra bit of reward when every once in a while a tree gets run over, and there's a stump. But then it starts to put out sprouts. And the initial reaction is oh, we need to replace that tree with a new tree, get a contractor and plant and spend money and select the tree. But every once in a while, we prune one of the sprouts, train it into a leader and let that same organism live. And it's amazing to see how well they do when you do that, because the root system's alive. It wants to grow. And there are many trees that developed into mature trees in that way. And there's like this extra little bit of satisfaction with those that I find, like, oh, that's one that we trained from a stump sprout, right? There's a little bit of that going on here, too, I think. Just that there were trees, from our perspective, maybe not the general public, but from our perspective - that we saved them. Bram Gunther: 43:02 Yeah, well, especially related to the survivor tree, that what you just described was relevant, and that we did take the sprouts from the stump that came to us a few weeks after 9/11, and I think grew out a hundred little babies from it? I'm sure some of them are still there at the Citywide Nursery, but we eventually gave out some of those babies to other places across the world - and I'm glad you brought that up, because I'd forgotten about this part - that had also experienced national traumas, and wanted this survivor tree as a way to remember and memorialize their trauma. [Wonderful] So many of those trees went out, some of them just went to the 9/11 Memorial. And the other part I wanted to add when I was coming down here thinking about the interview, too, is that I consider trees Earth's greatest living creatures. And I've always felt that. And there is something about an organism that big, that long lived, which is partly why humans are so intrigued by whales, just as an example. or elephants. You and I have that towards trees. And so the fact they already hold such an incredible place, at least for people like you and I, in our sense of the world, and the sense of the biology and the diversity of the world, to be able to have those trees to speak for us, so to speak, was really moving for me. [Music] Doug Still: 44:46 So I'm really interested in going downtown and seeing these trees after all this time. Bram Gunther: 44:51 Me too. I'm really looking forward to seeing them. Doug Still: 44:55 Okay, let's go. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 45:03 [Music ends] Doug Still: 45:03 [Sound of city traffic.] So Bram and I made our way downtown on the 1 train to Chamber Street and walked over to City Hall Park. And, where are we located right now Bram? Bram Gunther: 45:14 We are at a triangle-shaped green space that is directly east of City Hall, and at the entrance to the Brooklyn Bridge from Manhattan traveling towards Brooklyn, Doug Still: 45:27 I haven't been here in about 10 years, and I am amazed at all of the people on the Brooklyn Bridge. Bram Gunther: 45:34 The Brooklyn Bridge had some capital construction work done to it, and the walkways that were always there, but were fixed up. Now this is one of the main features of the City down here. People love it. Doug Still: 45:49 But this little triangle, it's nice to see. That our living memorial trees, make this triangle. There are four left, four out of six. [Yep] We don't know what happened to Bram Gunther: 46:02 Well, one I had heard through, when I was still them. at the parks department, I had heard that it died through Manhattan forestry. [I see] The second one I had not heard about. So it must have died in the last several years. Doug Still: 46:15 So three of the littleleaf lindens are still here, and one 'Bradford' pear. It's a callery pear, but it's definitely a 'Bradford' cultivar. I can tell by the poor structure. But it's doing quite well, I have to say, left on its own. Bram Gunther: 46:30 And we should say for the record that the Survivor Tree was a 'Bradford' callery pear. Doug Still: 46:36 So very successful, at least, I think, you know, to have four of them left alive? The plaque is gone, [Yeah] and there is some debris here. [Yeah] Rubble. Looks like nobody knows these trees are here. Bram Gunther: 46:57 They are beyond everybody's veil. Yeah. Which is very sad to me. Because these trees, as Doug and I were discussing before, are meaningful in so many ways. Except for most people, they they don't know them, or they've been forgotten. Doug Still: 47:18 But unlike many trees in the City, they're not planted in pavement, they're in grass. They're protected by a fence. Pedestrians can't walk where we are, we snuck in through a hole in the fence. These guys are protected. Bram Gunther: 47:31 Yeah, and it's pretty moving to see them actually. Because I remember them the day after I saw them. And even though they were not hurt, they were in shock if I can use that term. And here they are living their lives out. Four of the six are here living their lives out across from City Hall. Doug Still: 47:55 What would you say this project means to you? Bram Gunther: 47:58 The project of transplanting the trees here? [Yes] It means to me on a personal level, now that my mother has died, and that my mother worked on the 77th floor of the World Trade Center, it's partly a remembrance of her and her life. But more importantly, for me, it's a remembrance of a really, really difficult and sad time in New York City's history. And they're still here as living witnesses. Doug Still: 48:35 Thanks for joining me today, Bram. Bram Gunther: 48:37 You're welcome. It was my pleasure. [Music] Doug Still: 48:46 Bram later clarified that the site we visited was called the Living Memorial, and there was one each in the five boroughs created during the Bloomberg administration. The Manhattan site had, of course, these first 9/11 survivor trees planted within it. Keeping it real, our happiness at seeing the four remaining trees again and how healthy and vital they still were, was mixed with some disappointment that they were unmarked and seemingly forgotten next to the busy, never ending flow of people, bikes, and cars. Since our visit, the Parks Department has cleaned up the site, fixed the fence, and is reinstalling a sign that had been misplaced, which is great news. I hope everyone will go see the trees. [Music] Back then, and as a department, we are able to make one small positive contribution, I feel, doing what we do. Just as the Survivor Tree is a symbol of endurance and the spirit of life, so are the four remaining First 9/11 Survivor Trees, still standing near City Hall and the entrance to the Brooklyn Bridge. To Bram and I and the others who were part of their rescue, these trees are symbols of something extra - our human connection. I want to take a minute to thank all you tree lovers who listen to the show today, especially to the regular listeners who have followed our young podcast since the start six weeks ago. You are greatly appreciated, and I hope to get to know you. An extra way to connect is via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter to see photos of the trees we talked about and get regular updates. You can also visit the website at thisoldtree.show. One thing you can do to support the show is hit your subscribe button on your podcast app when you're done listening. There isn't a Tree Story Short again this week, but don't be afraid to tell us your personal tree story, which you can record just by using the memo app on your phone. It should be one to three minutes long. Instructions are in the show notes on where to email it. Finally, here's arborist and songwriter Dee Lee to take us out with his music. This Old Tree song - Dee Lee: 50:50 This old tree, standing here for more than four centuries. I wonder what you'd say if you could talk to me about what it's like to be, this old tree. Shadow and shade, kids down the block are selling lemonade. Send them down to cool breezes sweet cascade, tailor made by this old tree. In 1600 you were just a seed, reaching bothers sky, high. Waiting for a chance to take your place in the warm sunshine. Here I go, high above the place where the people grow, leave my troubles on the ground far below, so I can get to know, this old tree. Summer sparkle in your leaves. Autumn winds will bring relief. Winter calls for you to sleep. Spring returns again in green. But the town - ships on the water side spy your royal crown. Sentinel of green, two points off starboard bow, homeward bound to this old tree. In 1800 you felt the thunder or roll, lightning split the sky, high. Though the fire raged in the little town below, you managed to survive, this scar upon your side. This old tree, reach out and touch a living history! Beneath my hands an ancient mystery, how small I am by this old tree. How small I am by this old tree. |
|
Proudly powered by Weebly